Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Android 17's strength seems to be best gauged based on his performance against Top.

Top like Golden Frieza was pretty much equal to a Super Saiyan Blue.

Android 17 was not as strong as Top but was certainly strong enough to hold his own and not embarrass himself so he's close but not quite there.

Like Ultimate Gohan.

17 never fought Toppo in the manga.

[ZombieVito]

Android 17's strength seems to be best gauged based on his performance against Top.

Top like Golden Frieza was pretty much equal to a Super Saiyan Blue.

Android 17 was not as strong as Top but was certainly strong enough to hold his own and not embarrass himself so he's close but not quite there.

Like Ultimate Gohan.

Yeah. Gohan and 17 are mid Blue tier.

They can't beat the fighters on the higher Blue tier (Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Freeza) but they can hold their own for a while.

[Lionel]

Where do fans generally put Moro's subordinates when they aren't enhanced with their leader's ki? I mean Saganbo, Shimorekka, Yunba, and Zauyogi. Seven-Three stands out the most but his power seems to fluctuate depending on which fighter he's exploiting the abilities and power of.

[Hugo Boss]

Where do fans generally put Moro's subordinates when they aren't enhanced with their leader's ki? I mean Saganbo, Shimorekka, Yunba, and Zauyogi. Seven-Three stands out the most but his power seems to fluctuate depending on which fighter he's exploiting the abilities and power of.

Saganbo is supposed to be weaker than Kid Trunks, according to Vegeta.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Where do fans generally put Moro's subordinates when they aren't enhanced with their leader's ki? I mean Saganbo, Shimorekka, Yunba, and Zauyogi. Seven-Three stands out the most but his power seems to fluctuate depending on which fighter he's exploiting the abilities and power of.

Given how they were defeated by the Galactic Brigade and all arrested in the past, I think they end up being weaker than the best of the Freeza Force. The weakest fodder should be no different from most Freeza Soldiers, while the strongest should still be below 1st form Freeza. I can imagine Saganbo giving Ginyu a run for his money.

In terms of how they compare to each other, I think it goes like this:

1. Saganbo
2. Yunba
3. Shimorekka
4. Zauyogi
5. Yuzin
6. Quoitur
7. Miza, Iwaza & Kikasa (Individually)

Saganbo is obviously the strongest, with Yunba and Shimorekka close behind since they're his wingmen. Zauyogi takes pride. Saganbo is pretty surprised that anyone could beat Yuzin (Zarbon's twin), so he's next. The bottom two are just that Metalmen and the girls Kuririn and Roshi fought, respectively, just above the average fodder for being named and giving the humans trouble. Didn't include the merged girls or Seven-Three because I don't know how strong they should be, but they're still below Saganbo and maybe the top 3/4.

Interestingly, Jaco describes Seven-Three as pretty powerful even without any copy abilities. I'm not sure if he can be powered up by Moro's magic though, nor what Jaco considers "strong" (He is talking to Piccolo btw), so no idea what to make of this.

[Goku9001]

Saganbo is definitely strongest of the bunch but Vegeta states that Saganbo wouldn't be capable of defeating Kid Trunks. It makes me wonder how powerful the humans are at this point since the strongest of Moro's lackeys are at least as powerful as the humans, if not, stronger than them. Did the humans surpass Frieza at this point in time?

[Xeno Goku Black]

Yeah. Gohan and 17 are mid Blue tier.

They can't beat the fighters on the higher Blue tier (Goku, Vegeta, Toppo and Freeza) but they can hold their own for a while.

Yeah I suppose if you count everything from as low as Resurrection F Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta and all the way up through ToP Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta then Gohan and Android 17 fit within being Super Saiyan Blue tier.

Android 17 held his own against Top quite well compared to how Goku Black was smashed by Vegeta who at that point probably wasn't quite as strong as Top.

[Nistarkail]

Where do fans generally put Moro's subordinates when they aren't enhanced with their leader's ki? I mean Saganbo, Shimorekka, Yunba, and Zauyogi. Seven-Three stands out the most but his power seems to fluctuate depending on which fighter he's exploiting the abilities and power of.

Given how they were defeated by the Galactic Brigade and all arrested in the past, I think they end up being weaker than the best of the Freeza Force. The weakest fodder should be no different from most Freeza Soldiers, while the strongest should still be below 1st form Freeza. I can imagine Saganbo giving Ginyu a run for his money.

In terms of how they compare to each other, I think it goes like this:

1. Saganbo
2. Yunba
3. Shimorekka
4. Zauyogi
5. Yuzin
6. Quoitur
7. Miza, Iwaza & Kikasa (Individually)

Saganbo is obviously the strongest, with Yunba and Shimorekka close behind since they're his wingmen. Zauyogi takes pride. Saganbo is pretty surprised that anyone could beat Yuzin (Zarbon's twin), so he's next. The bottom two are just that Metalmen and the girls Kuririn and Roshi fought, respectively, just above the average fodder for being named and giving the humans trouble. Didn't include the merged girls or Seven-Three because I don't know how strong they should be, but they're still below Saganbo and maybe the top 3/4.

Interestingly, Jaco describes Seven-Three as pretty powerful even without any copy abilities. I'm not sure if he can be powered up by Moro's magic though, nor what Jaco considers "strong" (He is talking to Piccolo btw), so no idea what to make of this.

Well, honestly I'm on the idea that in general their power (pre-power up) level varied between 200 and maybe 4.000?

From what we see, the ranking after power up (at least) is like:

1) Sanganbo: 7.000 before knowing Moro, SSJ Trunks with Power-up on Namek, and near SSJ God more after more Power-ups.

1) OG-73: really hard to understand because since his first confrontation with Piccolo, he was gaining the upper hand for more moments. I don't think that Moro boosted-up him before Earth's invasion, but he borrowed him his abilities to make him more dangerous. However his power level is around Piccolo after trained with Gohan.

And now, the minor convicts:

3) Zauyogi: 1.550 before Power-up and and 1.600.000 (third form Frieza) after Power-up. To be so strong, a secondary character like him (the advisor of Moro, after all) surely had to be weaker before being upgraded. This explains why Yamcha and Tien were not able to land a single punch.

4) Yunba: maybe 2.000 before Power-up and at least 1.000.000-1.300.000 (second form Frieza) after Power-up. Not enough to beat Krillin but sufficient to be so dangerous to deflect Kienzans and be resilient. Jaco said he was a really dangerous opponent now and in the past, so Moro had more than one reason to potentiate him.

5) Bikurra Quoitur: the weaker counterpart of Auta Magetta. I'm sure that before Power-up maybe he was around 3.500 and 950.000 after Power-up. He was slow but with the natural characteristic to be super hard, but if you see the panels, he lost with some little scratches.

6) Yuzun: I'm always in doubt about a possible power up by Moro, but for me he was more or less between 30.000 (normal) and 150.000 (morphed). He managed to lift huge weights and resist for some seconds against Vegeta, but we already saw this kind of character.

7) Shimorekka: maybe 230-240 before Power-up (weaker than Piccolo Daimao) and 3.000 after enhancement. He got more panels and he was quite talkative, but honestly? He was pathetic since his first moment. Beat some weak Zoon is not a big feat in Dragon Ball Universe, and even Jaco was fighting against him. So I'm sure that he could not reach even Nappa's strength.

Miza, Kikaza, Iwaza: each of them probably was around 200 before Power-up and 15.000 max after Moro's magic. With the triple fusion hack, the Power Level maybe is around 100.000.000 (so near fourth form Frieza).

[Lionel]

Jeeze! If they're that weak it begs the question of why Vegeta would go to the trouble of comparing them, even their leader, with his son who is a Super Saiyan. The original Saiyan population or the elites/higher mid-tier like Nappa would be a more apt comparison.

Saganbo is definitely strongest of the bunch but Vegeta states that Saganbo wouldn't be capable of defeating Kid Trunks. It makes me wonder how powerful the humans are at this point since the strongest of Moro's lackeys are at least as powerful as the humans, if not, stronger than them. Did the humans surpass Frieza at this point in time?

Most fans tend to agree that the humans haven't surpassed Freeza. Beerus' observations about base Goku in the BOG arc implies that Super Saiyan was still required for them to defeat the tyrant; this in spite of all the training they had undergone to improve themselves over the past 13 years since the battle on Namek. The humans are considered less than the base Saiyans. None of them have taken any extraordinary means to strengthen themselves since King Kai and the Grand Elder's potential unlock.

Goku's statements as they were selecting candidates for the Tournament of Power about #18 being stronger than her husband also implies that they haven't surpassed Freeza. It's unlikely that #18 trained all that much prior to the tournament since she was living a domestic lifestyle.

[TobyS]

Jeeze! If they're that weak it begs the question of why Vegeta would go to the trouble of comparing them, even their leader, with his son who is a Super Saiyan. The original Saiyan population or the elites/higher mid-tier like Nappa would be a more apt comparison.

Saganbo is definitely strongest of the bunch but Vegeta states that Saganbo wouldn't be capable of defeating Kid Trunks. It makes me wonder how powerful the humans are at this point since the strongest of Moro's lackeys are at least as powerful as the humans, if not, stronger than them. Did the humans surpass Frieza at this point in time?

Most fans tend to agree that the humans haven't surpassed Freeza. Beerus' observations about base Goku in the BOG arc implies that Super Saiyan was still required for them to defeat the tyrant; this in spite of all the training they had undergone to improve themselves over the past 13 years since the battle on Namek. The humans are considered less than the base Saiyans. None of them have taken any extraordinary means to strengthen themselves since King Kai and the Grand Elder's potential unlock.

Goku's statements as they were selecting candidates for the Tournament of Power about #18 being stronger than her husband also implies that they haven't surpassed Freeza. It's unlikely that #18 trained all that much prior to the tournament since she was living a domestic lifestyle.

Yeah I think the problem is we have the obvious scaling in the manga of the humans being weaker than base goku who is weaker than freeza and 18 still being stronger than Kuririn despite still being weaker and training less if at all than 17.

But then everyone trains for Moro and it's all unsure again where they land now.

[Yuji]

If we take the anime as a measure of anything, then Kuririn forced Goku to turn Super Saiyan and possessed Roshi was holding his own against base Goku. The manga makes it clear Goku is still ahead of the humans but this feat also comes after a hefty training period and it's visually implied he used UI in some measure against the fusion character.

I would say something like this:

Goku and Vegeta pre-Moro training: 90
Freeza: 120
Goku and Vegeta post-Moro training: 160
Roshi: 10
Kuririn: 75
Tenshinhan: 70
Yamcha: 50

[picc]

Is there really any good reason the humans should be stronger than Freeza?

Freeza was a long reigning despot as the by far strongest being in the universe. Someone who's name inspired terror through the cosmos and into the kaio realm. If it was possible for fighters with the biological potential of humans to get stronger than Freeza through a decade of punching air and sparring with each other, it probably would have happened multiple times by the time we even met him.

Think about the crazy amount of deux ex machina and plot devices it took for the saiyans and piccolo (with greatly superior biological potential) to reach Freeza level. Multiple zenkais. Gravity training. Legendary transformations. Disproportionately plot-assisted boosts from fusions and zenkais.

The humans had been training for most of their lives at some point, and were barely above saibamen. To go from that, to stronger than the strongest being in the universe with a PL in the high millions, with no special training techniques, biological assists, divine masters, and no real plot related need for them to be that strong, doesn't make a lot of sense. IMO it defeats the concept of Freeza itself if human fighters with no plot device assistance could reach or surpass his level. Especially within a few years of knowing him.

The ginyu force were an elite group of alien fighters who presumably had the best training available, and they still were in the 35-45k range. And seemed unbeatable with a Godly amount of power by earth standards.

Then you have three years between freeza and the androids, but with no special training that would explain an unusually high boost (ie. God/Angel/GoD/Yardrat for the saiyans). Then 7 years of peace, where Krillin all but gave up fighting and Tenshinhan was at best doing solo training or sparring with Chaozu. Yamcha the same.

Why would they be anywhere near Freeza? Why would they be anywhere near Captain Ginyu, for that matter? It never made sense to me personally. I don't think any of them even cracked 100k.

And there's absolutely nothing wrong with that. Having a power level of 20,000 was a huge, huge deal at one point in the series. A power level of 42,000 was enough to make Nail the champion warrior of a universe-renowned planet. So why must the humans reach a million to be considered strong?

Being relative fodder to the strongest fighters in the universe, who have access to unlimited plot device cheat codes, doesn't make the humans weak. Against 99% of the known universe, they would be invincible.

*I'm speaking manga only, obviously. The anime scaling is all over and anything is possible there

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think another important thing to note: later in DBS's run, they went in more on the idea that even big differences in power could be made up for with the right skills, strategies, techniques, etc.

The Humans don't need to be that much stronger to perform well because the rules have been changed in a Doylist sense to accommodate their newfound usefulness.

[Lionel]

The idea of sensible realistic projections for the humans might sound good but it's hindered by the reality that the humans did rapidly progress in their growth as fighters throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Krillin transitioned from an earthbound power level of 206 to 75,000 by the time the climax against Freeza started. If inorganity through the natural weaknesses of humans prevented them from growing so much to surpass otherworldly beings then that kind of rapid escalation over the span of roughly a year should have been impossible.

Basic training methods like exercises and drills in the wilderness shouldn't be a deterrent either. Technically Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku each engaged in that form of training and they still progressed noticeably in strength. For me it's the internal declaration that Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza which determinantly confirms to me that the humans didn't surpass the tyrant. Otherwise, I would say that the idea of them doing so exists through circumstances like Krillin having such a powerful wife to spar with or Tenshinhan training in the harshest elements of Earth. Sounds unremarkable but when considering how training on a mountaintop similar to Mount Everest could work like the ROSAT in terms of temperature (ROSAT's lowest temperature is -40 degrees whereas Everest's annual average is -16 with a potential for getting as low as -76) and air scarcity (1/3rd the air pressure of sea level compared to 1/4th in the ROSAT), it could be a valuable resource.

[ZombieVito]

Training gains are determined by plot not logic.

The humans went from the low hundreds to the mid to high thousands in less that a year with normal Earth training.

[picc]

The idea of sensible realistic projections for the humans might sound good but it's hindered by the reality that the humans did rapidly progress in their growth as fighters throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Krillin transitioned from an earthbound power level of 206 to 75,000 by the time the climax against Freeza started. If inorganity through the natural weaknesses of humans prevented them from growing so much to surpass otherworldly beings then that kind of rapid escalation over the span of roughly a year should have been impossible.

Basic training methods like exercises and drills in the wilderness shouldn't be a deterrent either. Technically Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku each engaged in that form of training and they still progressed noticeably in strength. For me it's the internal declaration that Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza which determinantly confirms to me that the humans didn't surpass the tyrant. Otherwise, I would say that the idea of them doing so exists through circumstances like Krillin having such a powerful wife to spar with or Tenshinhan training in the harshest elements of Earth. Sounds unremarkable but when considering how training on a mountaintop similar to Mount Everest could work like the ROSAT in terms of temperature (ROSAT's lowest temperature is -40 degrees whereas Everest's annual average is -16 with a potential for getting as low as -76) and air scarcity (1/3rd the air pressure of sea level compared to 1/4th in the ROSAT), it could be a valuable resource.

I personally don't subscribe to the PL's in the daizenshuu. Far too many inconsistencies and logically impossible figures to be accurate. But lets assume its 100% right. We're still talking about a one-off plot device that was never duplicated afterward. He hits 75k... and then what? That's still impossibly, and exponentially far off from the multiple millions of Freeza at a fraction of his full power. He gets his potential unleashed, hits 75k, and then goes back to punching air in the woods. How does that get him to even a million?

Then we've got Tenshinhan and Yamcha, who never got that powerup. So they're theoretically left in the dust by Krillin himself, and solely reliant on basic, earthly training methods, with no plot device assistance.

Following the Saiyan saga, Goku/Piccolo/Vegeta consistently had either each other (similarly strong opponent) to spar with, plot device assisted training (gravity rooms), or extra-special sensei's (Whis, Beerus, Yadratians) to explain gigantic power increases in their base (fusion/transformations aside). Not to mention higher genetic fighting potential. Punching air in the woods is... absolutely a deterrent to the idea the humans made unusually large gains in the following years.

I don't remember any references to Krillin spending time training with #18 either -- the whole point of the Buu saga seemed to be that he gave up fighting and training, which from Gohan we know actually suppresses your power level quite a bit. IIRC he may have done a bit of training with her in Super, but we're talking a period of months. And has had no lip service to an unusually large gain, which typically happens when it occurs.

Also kind of a stretch to equate training in the mountains to training in the ROSAT. Aside from there being no gravity difference, which was the primary differentiating factor along with the time slow, if merely training in the mountains was something that made a similar difference, it would have been taken advantage of to a greater extent, or at the least mentioned as such. As opposed to never having any lip service at all.

Not to mention there still being the massive, gargantuan chasm between a few thousand to the millions to overcome, with no plot-related need for it. Which, as we know, is the main reason for huge increases throughout the continuity of DB.

[Lionel]

The idea of sensible realistic projections for the humans might sound good but it's hindered by the reality that the humans did rapidly progress in their growth as fighters throughout the Saiyan and Freeza arcs. Krillin transitioned from an earthbound power level of 206 to 75,000 by the time the climax against Freeza started. If inorganity through the natural weaknesses of humans prevented them from growing so much to surpass otherworldly beings then that kind of rapid escalation over the span of roughly a year should have been impossible.

Basic training methods like exercises and drills in the wilderness shouldn't be a deterrent either. Technically Vegeta, Piccolo, and Goku each engaged in that form of training and they still progressed noticeably in strength. For me it's the internal declaration that Goku needed Super Saiyan to beat Freeza which determinantly confirms to me that the humans didn't surpass the tyrant. Otherwise, I would say that the idea of them doing so exists through circumstances like Krillin having such a powerful wife to spar with or Tenshinhan training in the harshest elements of Earth. Sounds unremarkable but when considering how training on a mountaintop similar to Mount Everest could work like the ROSAT in terms of temperature (ROSAT's lowest temperature is -40 degrees whereas Everest's annual average is -16 with a potential for getting as low as -76) and air scarcity (1/3rd the air pressure of sea level compared to 1/4th in the ROSAT), it could be a valuable resource.

I personally don't subscribe to the PL's in the daizenshuu. Far too many inconsistencies and logically impossible figures to be accurate. But lets assume its 100% right. We're still talking about a one-off plot device that was never duplicated afterward. He hits 75k... and then what? That's still impossibly, and exponentially far off from the multiple millions of Freeza at a fraction of his full power. He gets his potential unleashed, hits 75k, and then goes back to punching air in the woods. How does that get him to even a million?

Then we've got Tenshinhan and Yamcha, who never got that powerup. So they're theoretically left in the dust by Krillin himself, and solely reliant on basic, earthly training methods, with no plot device assistance.

Following the Saiyan saga, Goku/Piccolo/Vegeta consistently had either each other (similarly strong opponent) to spar with, plot device assisted training (gravity rooms), or extra-special sensei's (Whis, Beerus, Yadratians) to explain gigantic power increases in their base (fusion/transformations aside). Not to mention higher genetic fighting potential. Punching air in the woods is... absolutely a deterrent to the idea the humans made unusually large gains in the following years.

I don't remember any references to Krillin spending time training with #18 either -- the whole point of the Buu saga seemed to be that he gave up fighting and training, which from Gohan we know actually suppresses your power level quite a bit. IIRC he may have done a bit of training with her in Super, but we're talking a period of months. And has had no lip service to an unusually large gain, which typically happens when it occurs.

Also kind of a stretch to equate training in the mountains to training in the ROSAT. Aside from there being no gravity difference, which was the primary differentiating factor along with the time slow, if merely training in the mountains was something that made a similar difference, it would have been taken advantage of to a greater extent, or at the least mentioned as such. As opposed to never having any lip service at all.

Not to mention there still being the massive, gargantuan chasm between a few thousand to the millions to overcome, with no plot-related need for it. Which, as we know, is the main reason for huge increases throughout the continuity of DB.

There was the interlude between the Freeza and Trunks arcs. Goku had yet to return and the gravity chamber wasn't constructed until after they learned of the cyborgs' eventual appearance. Piccolo and Vegeta had trained intensely, presumably in natural geographic conditions. Skip ahead to the beginning of the BOG arc and we see Goku living a domestic lifestyle though with the mental presentation of being a match for Kid Buu in just his SSJ state; this was before he had any time to go off to King Kai's and was expected to work the land by Chichi. You can believe Buu was artificially scaled to match Goku in that condition though it doesn't seem to coincide with his statement to Goten of wanting to be prepared for future villains.

Don't forget that Krillin was dead and his soul presumably meandering about in the afterlife for 130 days. Yamcha was only at King Kai's for 136 days at the most but Tenshinhan wasn't resurrected until almost a year after arriving with the others. In addition, there are no references to Krillin training with #18. It was a proposal put forth to argue for him having the means to potentially surpass Freeza; not that it had actually happened.

Something as banal as working out in the mountains is only naturally going to remain unsung. It's an easy, familiar methodology that was probably being used back in the classic Dragon Ball era. Choosing to wear weighted clothing to increase your pay off is also pretty standard though we know Goku and Vegeta are inclined for using that training method going into the arcs of Super.

[Sora Saiyan]

Saganbo is definitely strongest of the bunch but Vegeta states that Saganbo wouldn't be capable of defeating Kid Trunks. It makes me wonder how powerful the humans are at this point since the strongest of Moro's lackeys are at least as powerful as the humans, if not, stronger than them. Did the humans surpass Frieza at this point in time?

I would actually place Yuzun at the top outside of any of Moros amps. Sagonbo can't believe he was defeated by Vegeta since Yuzun is "supposed to be unbeatable after transforming".

[Nistarkail]

I would actually place Yuzun at the top outside of any of Moros amps. Sagoabo could not believe he was defeated by Vegeta since Yuzun is "supposed to be unbeatable after transforming".

It seems that uncle Saganbo was not able to detect ki and measure power levels. Maybe he judged things only with battle experience, considering that Yuzun was among the best before his fellows were improved by Moro's magic. Being able to transform and lift huge things like dinosaurs and huge vehicles is a thing that even a guy like Nappa could do.

Humans most probably trained alone before Moro's invasion and surely without Gravity Room or RoSaT. Just imagine a battle in Namek between fourth form Frieza and Tien, Krillin and Yamcha together... With a power level of 120.000.000 at least you are able to modify weather conditions because ki's amount is really big and massive. It means also that earthlings can not compete with early Super Saiyan at times of Dragon Ball Z but rather with Third Form Frieza that's already an impressive feat.

[Sora Saiyan]

I would actually place Yuzun at the top outside of any of Moros amps. Sagoabo could not believe he was defeated by Vegeta since Yuzun is "supposed to be unbeatable after transforming".

It seems that uncle Saganbo was not able to detect ki and measure power levels. Maybe he judged things only with battle experience, considering that Yuzun was among the best before his fellows were improved by Moro's magic. Being able to transform and lift huge things like dinosaurs and huge vehicles is a thing that even a guy like Nappa could do.

Yeah I don't think he was extraordinarily strong in regards to the main cast, just that he was stronger than Saganbo. He was likely weaker than Kid Trunks since Yuzun should logically be below Namek Freeza.
Somebody being "unbeatable" is relative ofcourse, as he clearly was a joke when against somebody truly powerful.