Could other villains have been stopped with the Mafuba/Evil Containment Wave?

[Peach]

Imagine if Piccolo remembered that they they knew this technique in Dragon Ball Z.

Or if Master Roshi had accompanied his students on some of their battles and adventures instead of hanging out on his island.

Or if instead of the Tri-Beam, Tien/Tenshinhan whipped out the Denshi Jar against Cell and Super Buu.

Could this technique have been used to stop any of the villains?


- Raditz
- Nappa & Vegeta
- Zarbon & Dodoria
- The Ginyu Force
- Frieza
- King Cold & Mecha Frieza
- Movie villains (like Garlic Jr, Cooler, and Bojack)
- Dr. Gero & Android 20
- Android 17 & Android 18, and their future counterparts
- Cell
- Buu
- Golden Frieza
- Jiren
- Broly
- Moro

[Lionel]

I don't know. Roshi's comment in the Future Trunks arc has cast doubt on the incontestable surety of the Mafuba, I think. To an extent it should work on more powerful opponents. If they're dimensions apart from each other, though, it may not.

On the villains in question?

Raditz: Yes. Piccolo was perhaps roughly a third of Raditz's strength. It should be virtually guaranteed if he's able to prompt Goku into collaborating with him by holding the sealing device so that it's firmly anchoured without any risk of it being thrown off centre. If it were Roshi I don't know. Some hesitation might be there in using it knowing that he's already been resurrected by the Dragon Balls once without the knowledge of Namek or its set.

Nappa & Vegeta: Against Nappa either Piccolo or Tenshinhan should be able to trap the Saiyan. It's Vegeta's subsequent reaction that voids the tactical victory this gives the Z-Warriors. The slim hope they have is if both Mafuba users are able to successfully trap both Saiyans simultaneously. It's a long shot and I'm not so confident on the odds of it working against Vegeta, even if Piccolo was the one using it, but their alternatives are slim to none.

Zarbon & Dodoria: By who? At the time of their field activity no one was present who knew the Mafuba to entrap them. Sure Piccolo and Tenshinhan from the era of the Namek arc could likely pull it off if they just happened to get plopped down in front of Freeza's lackies. But I'm assuming this topic is intended to be consistent with the framework of the manga narrative, though.

The Ginyu Force: Similar situation as Zarbon and Dodoria. No one who fought the Ginyu Force in the manga could use the Mafuba.

Freeza: Piccolo is the beacon of hope in this situation. Against Freeza in any of his suppression forms or when the tyrant initially had reverted back to his natural state it could have worked. Once Freeza starts powering up to half his strength or more the likelihood of success seems iffy.

King Cold & Mecha Freeza: If you think the Mafuba is usable in spite of all strength discrepancies then Piccolo and Tenshinhan can act as the vanguard for Earth. Should strength somehow pose as an estimative metric then they may not be able to pull this off. Piccolo is their strongest Mafuba asset and he's still probably dozens of times weaker than Cold, let alone Freeza.

- Movie villains (like Garlic Jr, Cooler, and Bojack): Garlic Jr, yes. Piccolo proved to be able to sufficiently overwhelm him when cooperating with Goku. Garlic Jr shouldn't be difficult to magically entrap.

Goku and Piccolo seemed to be engaged in fist-to-fist parity with one another again like the 23rd tournament during the second Z movie. How Dr Wheelo's resistance to the Kaioken fluxed once Goku increased it to x4 gives me the idea of Piccolo being able to pull this off. The Kaioken in the early Z era wasn't over the top in its multipliers.

Eating the Tree of Might's fruit increased Turles' strength to levels that overwhelmed even Goku as he was using the Kaioken x10. Piccolo's only window is before when he's fighting Turles. Forget Tenshinhan who was put out of commission by Lakasei and Rasin.

Piccolo lent sufficient enough power to get Goku back on his feet and help him defeat Lord Slug. Goku noticeably had to increase his Kaioken amplifier to levels unseen ever since. Not sure if Piccolo on his own could use the Mafuba to win unless it's maybe Lord Slug when he's old.

Transformations always create a twofold or more conundrum. Cooler in his original state is probably several leagues stronger though arguably by the standards of late Freeza arc between Piccolo and Freeza in his initial natural state. It's once he transforms further that Piccolo could see a damper put on his Mafuba ploy succeeding.

His resistance was waning against a replica of Metal Cooler albeit Piccolo was at least still on his feet. I could see him being in the same generalised league as the Super Saiyans and Metal Cooler at the time (noticeably weaker). Mafuba should work here against an individual Metal Cooler. Let's not humour the entire army of them, though.

Piccolo enjoys a relatively easy victory against #13 in his original state through containing him. Come his metamorphosis and I question the efficacy of the Mafuba.

Any hamstrung iteration of Broly with the restraint device on or the original Super Saiyan form can be contained inside the device used for the Mafuba. Accorded power from the other three Saiyans and Piccolo enabled Goku to build up his strength enough to mount a counteroffensive. Suppose Mafuba could work against the Legendary Super Saiyan. The following movies are even more of a mess in their presentation of the power dynamics. I think Broly in his form could take down SSJ2 Gohan without any issue. I don't consider Piccolo to be a paltry tenth or some other minimal estimate of SSJ2 Gohan's strength but I don't know if it's enough to allow him to use the Mafuba against Broly at this time. Bio-Broly is an aberration. The opponents whom he fought are basically the contingent forces available to put down this clonal monstrosity. Still, he's supposed to some 'updated' replica of Broly from his second movie, right? I don't like the idea of it but I guess the Mafuba wouldn't work unless you're of the school of thought that Mafuba works regardless of power discrepancy. I don't believe Piccolo is present in the latter two movies, is he?

Anything afterwards seems too much for Piccolo when using the conservative model of Mafuba. Janemba, Hirudegarn, Beerus, and Freeza are leagues to dimensions superior next to Piccolo. Half of the time he's not even on the battlefield. When he is his participation is comparable to the humans'.

Dr. Gero & Android 19: Not sure why Piccolo would go to the trouble of using the Mafuba when he's naturally superior in power compared to these two. Gero and #19 should have on file records of the Mafuba from battles against Daimou and Piccolo Jr himself at the 23rd tournament. They may be able to anticipate and react in some manner if they're working together. Again, it's an odd arrangement where Piccolo should still be able to win despite the likelihood of the Mafuba succeeding not being the best. Although if Vegeta or the humans can at least preoccupy the other then they should be able to.

Android 17 & Android 18, and their future counterparts: The twins engaged with the same opponent seem poised to negate the Mafuba by destroying the containment device. Information accumulated from the aerial spy bot would afford them preemptive aware of the Mafuba's existence and potency. One of the cyborgs needs to be distracted by Piccolo's teammates if he wants to have a chance here.

Cell: Seems like an innately counterpositional force who can anticipate Piccolo's movements and techniques. While in theory the Mafuba should work, I can't see how Cell wouldn't pick up on the indicators of the Namekian setting it up. Mafuba Gaeshi would be the natural response. I only see the Mafuba working against Cell when Piccolo was his superior in strength. It could become a contest of colliding waves where Piccolo is ultimately the victory.

Buu: Maybe the diffused moralised portions could be sealed. Anything of the SSJ3 tier or higher seems like a bridge too far for the Namekian at the time of their existence.

Golden Freeza: I don't think so. Freeza in his most suppressed form, perhaps second too could work. Beyond that the conservative metric doesn't seem to favour Piccolo's odds here.

Jiren: Was Piccolo powerful enough to challenge any of the stronger Pride Troopers? Trapping Dyspo would be an accomplishment for him. Now Goku at this time should be aware of the technique and how to use it. Although Jiren's overall strength is so warped that any time prior to Ultra Instinct's awakening seems too much for Goku's Mafuba to handle.

Broly: At the onset of the battle when Broly had available to him just his original untransformed strength Piccolo may have had a chance with the Mafuba. Not afterwards. Goku has better odds throughout as he holds an advantage over Broly. Once Gogeta comes into existence then the need for Mafuba becomes moot.

Moro: Magic versus magic. Oddly enough I think Goku could have succeed against Moro on Namek at perhaps just about any time. Earth he and perhaps Piccolo could have successfully trapped Moro. My reasoning is that Piccolo seemed poised to have a solid chance of inflicting crucial damage against Moro with his suicidal attack. Would that not translate adequately to the Mafuba being executed instead?

So that's my assessment. I'm trying to keep Roshi's statement in the manga in mind here. If we use the anime's standards then it comes down to familiarity with the Mafuba rather it being a simplified contest of strength.

[DragonBallFoodie]

The Mafuba sounds like an all-purpose attack, and if it could work on Zamasu it could work on anyone less powerful than him.

But I don't know about warriors after Zamasu. Maybe Jiren could fight off the attack.

[FoolsGil]

Pre Super it was sort of implied it could only work on demons, unless it was reflected, so Piccolo, Cell, Dabura, and Buu only.

Post Super, sure, retcons and all that. Anyone could have been beaten with the Mafuba.

[fleahop]

Pre Super it was sort of implied it could only work on demons, unless it was reflected, so Piccolo, Cell, Dabura, and Buu only.

Post Super, sure, retcons and all that. Anyone could have been beaten with the Mafuba.

But what exactly constitutes as a demon in Dragon Ball? Is it hereditary? Can you just become one through acts? Is it a special case of them only being made through magical means? Or is it where you're born?

Maybe it's a mix of these things?

I'd argue Zamas could fit the term by the time he's getting targeted.

[FoolsGil]

Pre Super it was sort of implied it could only work on demons, unless it was reflected, so Piccolo, Cell, Dabura, and Buu only.

Post Super, sure, retcons and all that. Anyone could have been beaten with the Mafuba.

But what exactly constitutes as a demon in Dragon Ball? Is it hereditary? Can you just become one through acts? Is it a special case of them only being made through magical means? Or is it where you're born?

Maybe it's a mix of these things?

I'd argue Zamas could fit the term by the time he's getting targeted.

Well it gets iffy, but I do believe there are numerous ways to become a demon in Dragonball. King Piccolo was literally born from Kami's darkness, but he's still an alien. Piccolo and by extension Cell, would inherit that darkness. Then Dabura who fashions himself the King of Demons, was probably born one. And Buu was retconned to have been a force in the universe or something before Bibidi got ahold of him, but I'd say he's a demon from that as well.

Zamasu by the end of the arc definitely fits the bill of being a demon.

[SupremeKai25]

Yes.

The Mafuba trapped Zamasu, who we can assume had all kinds of Magical hax techniques due to being a Supreme Kai (The Fat Supreme Kai, for example, used his Magical hax to seal Moro's magic, implying that Supreme Kais do have some mastery over "Magic hax"). Since Zamasu failed, the other villains aren't resisting it.

[LightBing]

snip

Excellent post, I agree with the relative in-universe explanations. Most of the time there wasn't any opportunity for the Mafuba but it's pretty "weird" that the thought didn't even pass the minds of the Z-Warriors on some occasions.

Of course we know out-of-universe Toriyama just wrote himself into a corner.

[TobyS]

Honestly my headcanon is it only works on supernatural beings. Gods and demons. It seems weird to me you can put some guy in a jar.

That was my assumption in the first place why it was never bought back. The manga doesn't contradict this afaik. Only Piccolo, Kami and Zamasu have gone in afaik.

I could see it working on Buu but maybe he is too magic and he has pierced dimensional veils before like the ROSAT.

[Zillamon51]

I like the idea that the Mafuba only works against mystical opponents. I think DBS should have stuck with that.

Let's be honest, Jiren or Broly would just power up and shatter the jar from within.

[TobyS]

I like the idea that the Mafuba only works against mystical opponents. I think DBS should have stuck with that.

Let's be honest, Jiren or Broly would just power up and shatter the jar from within.

I'm pretty sure this headcanon works with the manga, it's only the TOP where the spam it using outside objects no less.

[EGonzo]

Pre Super it was sort of implied it could only work on demons, unless it was reflected, so Piccolo, Cell, Dabura, and Buu only.

Post Super, sure, retcons and all that. Anyone could have been beaten with the Mafuba.

But what exactly constitutes as a demon in Dragon Ball? Is it hereditary? Can you just become one through acts? Is it a special case of them only being made through magical means? Or is it where you're born?

Maybe it's a mix of these things?

I'd argue Zamas could fit the term by the time he's getting targeted.

Well it gets iffy, but I do believe there are numerous ways to become a demon in Dragonball. King Piccolo was literally born from Kami's darkness, but he's still an alien. Piccolo and by extension Cell, would inherit that darkness. Then Dabura who fashions himself the King of Demons, was probably born one. And Buu was retconned to have been a force in the universe or something before Bibidi got ahold of him, but I'd say he's a demon from that as well.

Zamasu by the end of the arc definitely fits the bill of being a demon.

Wait what's this Buu retcon? I haven't heard of it till now

[SupremeKai25]

The Mafuba worked on Vegeta. There's no evidence that it works only on Divine beings like the Kais or Guardians of Earth.

Zamasu was also not a Demon, I don't know why people here are saying this. He was a Supreme Kai gone rogue, but not a Demon. Demon Kais, aka Makaioshin like Demigra, are immediately exiled to the Demon Realm at birth, which obviously wasn't the case with Zamasu, since he was North Kai and was training to become Supreme Kai. In Xenoverse 2, he even has lines where he taunts and insults the Demon characters and says that they have no place in his world. He wouldn't say that if he was a Demon himself somehow.

[FoolsGil]

Wait what's this Buu retcon? I haven't heard of it till now

Toriyama said in an interview that Bibidi didn't create Buu, that Buu was already an existing force in the universe that Bibidi took control of.

[TobyS]

The Mafuba worked on Vegeta. There's no evidence that it works only on Divine beings like the Kais or Guardians of Earth.

Zamasu was also not a Demon, I don't know why people here are saying this. He was a Supreme Kai gone rogue, but not a Demon. Demon Kais, aka Makaioshin like Demigra, are immediately exiled to the Demon Realm at birth, which obviously wasn't the case with Zamasu, since he was North Kai and was training to become Supreme Kai. In Xenoverse 2, he even has lines where he taunts and insults the Demon characters and says that they have no place in his world. He wouldn't say that if he was a Demon himself somehow.

The mafuuba working on Vegeta was anime only.

Zamasu probably isn't a demon, but people can become demons, Piccolo was a namekian but because kami pumped all his evil into him he became a demon and can stop being one like Piccolo circa Raditz time. Zamasu could be demonic we don't know, he might not even know himself, he's a delusional nutcase with no self awareness. The reverse mafuba worked on kami, so the mafuba has been used on good or evil supernatural beings so far but not mortals in canon.

There's no proof for it but I think the headcanon they need to be supernatural in nature prevents EVERY character from being stupid for not even suggesting it in prior arcs that way.

[ZombieVito]

Considering that Roshi was able to technically seal Super Saiyan Vegeta (He was going to seal Frost and Magetta too) who is dimensions apart from then yes. Anyone from Z could be sealed off by Piccolo and anyone from Super could be sealed off by Goku with the exception of Infinite Zamasu in the anime and maybe Moro in the manga.

[SupremeKai25]

The Mafuba worked on Vegeta. There's no evidence that it works only on Divine beings like the Kais or Guardians of Earth.

Zamasu was also not a Demon, I don't know why people here are saying this. He was a Supreme Kai gone rogue, but not a Demon. Demon Kais, aka Makaioshin like Demigra, are immediately exiled to the Demon Realm at birth, which obviously wasn't the case with Zamasu, since he was North Kai and was training to become Supreme Kai. In Xenoverse 2, he even has lines where he taunts and insults the Demon characters and says that they have no place in his world. He wouldn't say that if he was a Demon himself somehow.

The mafuuba working on Vegeta was anime only.

Zamasu probably isn't a demon, but people can become demons, Piccolo was a namekian but because kami pumped all his evil into him he became a demon and can stop being one like Piccolo circa Raditz time. Zamasu could be demonic we don't know, he might not even know himself, he's a delusional nutcase with no self awareness. The reverse mafuba worked on kami, so the mafuba has been used on good or evil supernatural beings so far but not mortals in canon.

There's no proof for it but I think the headcanon they need to be supernatural in nature prevents EVERY character from being stupid for not even suggesting it in prior arcs that way.

Piccolo could be considered a Demon because he was literally, biologically pure evil, he was literally the evil half of what was once a single being. You can't make that argument for Zamasu because he wasn't some kind of "split" entity, he was a whole person and thus there was both good and evil in him, as with everyone. While his actions were evil, he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing and thus at least 0.1% of him was not evil. You can't make that argument for Piccolo or Kid Buu who, as we know, are indeed pure evil entities (Piccolo is the evil counterpart of Kami, the original Buu hasn't absorbed any kind of good person). Piccolo and Kid Buu never thought they were doing a good thing, while Zamasu did, that is already proof that they are not comparable. So it's a false equivalency.

If you really wanted to, you could make the argument that Zamasu became "demonic" in nature only and exclusively upon becoming Infinite. At that point, he wasn't really a person anymore, it was his spirit/soul trying to take over the entire Cosmos and kill everyone. He even lost all semblance of sanity.

The Mafuba was used against a mortal once in Canon: Vegeta in the Anime ToP arc, which is part of Super Canon.

[TobyS]

The Mafuba worked on Vegeta. There's no evidence that it works only on Divine beings like the Kais or Guardians of Earth.

Zamasu was also not a Demon, I don't know why people here are saying this. He was a Supreme Kai gone rogue, but not a Demon. Demon Kais, aka Makaioshin like Demigra, are immediately exiled to the Demon Realm at birth, which obviously wasn't the case with Zamasu, since he was North Kai and was training to become Supreme Kai. In Xenoverse 2, he even has lines where he taunts and insults the Demon characters and says that they have no place in his world. He wouldn't say that if he was a Demon himself somehow.

The mafuuba working on Vegeta was anime only.

Zamasu probably isn't a demon, but people can become demons, Piccolo was a namekian but because kami pumped all his evil into him he became a demon and can stop being one like Piccolo circa Raditz time. Zamasu could be demonic we don't know, he might not even know himself, he's a delusional nutcase with no self awareness. The reverse mafuba worked on kami, so the mafuba has been used on good or evil supernatural beings so far but not mortals in canon.

There's no proof for it but I think the headcanon they need to be supernatural in nature prevents EVERY character from being stupid for not even suggesting it in prior arcs that way.

Piccolo could be considered a Demon because he was literally, biologically pure evil, he was literally the evil half of what was once a single being. You can't make that argument for Zamasu because he wasn't some kind of "split" entity, he was a whole person and thus there was both good and evil in him, as with everyone. While his actions were evil, he genuinely thought he was doing the right thing and thus at least 0.1% of him was not evil. You can't make that argument for Piccolo or Kid Buu who, as we know, are indeed pure evil entities (Piccolo is the evil counterpart of Kami, the original Buu hasn't absorbed any kind of good person). Piccolo and Kid Buu never thought they were doing a good thing, while Zamasu did, that is already proof that they are not comparable. So it's a false equivalency.

If you really wanted to, you could make the argument that Zamasu became "demonic" in nature only and exclusively upon becoming Infinite. At that point, he wasn't really a person anymore, it was his spirit/soul trying to take over the entire Cosmos and kill everyone. He even lost all semblance of sanity.

The Mafuba was used against a mortal once in Canon: Vegeta in the Anime ToP arc, which is part of Super Canon.

It's not canon to the Manga (and thus evidently not even the Toriyama outline)

Piccolo being a split being wasn't why he was a demon, it just made it easier as he started out pure evil. That same evil that kami acquired as the nameless namekian.

Zamasu "think's what he's doing is right" he knows the entire universe and gods and angels above him disagree.

It's a distinction without merit, everyone "thinks what they are doing is right" even King Piccolo thought it was right to torture humanity because he wanted to and inherently felt entitled to do it. Might makes right.

Zamasu can dress it up however he want's he's doing the most unprecedented genocide of any character in the entire show, and consensus and authority tell him he is wrong. That's evil. It's incredibly plausible he's a demon by the end even before he splits into multiple Zamasus.

It's entirely possible that the Mafuuba only works on supernatural beings or more specifically demons but Zamasu was one, both readings work in the manga.

[SupremeKai25]

It's not canon to the Manga (and thus evidently not even the Toriyama outline)

I know you have a hate boner for the anime, but both the anime and manga are equally canon and follow Toriyama's outline. The manga is in no way, shape, or form, more canon than the anime.

And thus, in canon, a mortal was sealed by the Mafuba technique: Vegeta.

Piccolo being a split being wasn't why he was a demon,

It's exactly the reason, he's not a real person, he's the evil counterpart of someone. He's literally pure evil. He never had a good side because he's not a person, he's the evil half of an original single being.

You can argue that Zamasu also became pure evil but you can't compare him to Piccolo because he's not some fragmented being that split off from someone else.

It's entirely possible that the Mafuuba only works on supernatural beings or more specifically demons but Zamasu was one, both readings work in the manga.

So now we have gone from "Zamasu probably isn't a demon" to "Zamasu was a demon"?

[Scientist Fu]

Zamasu is born as a pur being (mentionned in the manga by Toriyama and in the anime by Gowasu iirc), he turned evil later on and did not stop his evildoing. So, if you wanna call anyone who does bad a demon then it's fine, just like you can call Z Broly or Cooler a demon too because of their acts.