Are these four main women in Dragon Ball really "just house wives"?

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

The only woman written well in Dragon Ball is Baba. Yes. I mean every other, including the one you're about to mention is not written well.

[goku the krump dancer]

Cant say Toriyama is an evil sexist if his previous main character (who was pretty popular) was a little girl who's personality was pretty much copy and pasted to Goku.

I don't think thats the flex you think it is. Largely because it seems more an admittance that Toriyama doesn't really know how to write women in any believable way. So he just made a Goku with boobs.

Well she came before Goku though, so its more like he's Arale with a dick and a tail but besides that I only really mentioned her because it shows that Toriyama can write a female character without any craziness or whatever , he made a little girl popular in a magazine aimed at boys and apparently Akane is a better example than Arale but I dont know enough about Dr. Slump to really dig into it, so i'll just leave it here.

Cant say Toriyama is an evil sexist if his previous main character (who was pretty popular) was a little girl who's personality was pretty much copy and pasted to Goku.

And Joss Whedon got big on making a tv series with a female lead that kicks vampire butt.


I just don't think "made a story with a female character as lead" is the argument you think it is.

That's not really an equal comparison because unlike Mr. Whedon, Toriyama didnt go around parading as some "Male Ally" only to be smacking up his wife behind the scenes.

Also what constitutes a "bad female character" as opposed to just being a bad character?

Typically one rooted in misogynstic and/or sexist tropes. Most of Toriyama's female characters in Dragon Ball are bitchy or homemakers. Or both. And nothing wrong with a character being a housewife but when that basically happens to all of them (except Bulma but ya know Bulma) it just says something about Toriyama's mindset on gender dynamics.

But none of Toriyama's DB Ladies are rooted in anything sexual or mysogynistic unless you count coming from a wealthy background as anti-women then sure, I guess because Bulma, ChiChi and Videl were all raised with money at their disposal. Being the butt of a few sex jokes in the beginning doesnt mean Toriyama believes that women are only good for showing their tits. They also arent bitchy, a bitch is needlessly mean for no reason and none of them are like that, a bit of a brat sure, over protective sure, kind of a tomboy sure but not bitchy. 18 is the most chill out of all of them but she's almost too nonchalant, she wont do anything unless her family is in grave danger or money is involved, she's strong but she's not a battle fiend like Goku and Vegeta.

Is Videl really a bad female character or was she just not used in a the way that you would find acceptable?

I would argue any character who goes from having a personality to having absolutely no personality is pretty poorly written. In Videl's case you can't really separate the fact that in the context of the story one of the few female fighter characters got her ass brutally whooped and then pretty much dropped off as a fighter and also lost any spunk.

Thats assuming she was being geared up for some big role in the arc only to fall short and there was nothing to suggest that, There was literally nothing she could do once things got dangerous, she realized she was only a big fish in a super small pond in Satan-City.

The DB Ladies are strong minded and don't bend to their husband's beck and call, hell its even openly stated in Super that saiyans like "Strong Women" so how can anyone say there're mysogynist undertones when being a strong woman is the exact opposite of it.

Look, I can admit that they probably arent the most developed characters in the world but I dont think its a by product of the patriarchy either.

[NitroEX]

The bigger issue with Bulma as a wife and mother is her entire relationship with Vegeta is predicated on Toriyama wanting to give Vegeta a son from the future and remembered that Bulma had a vagina. Every now and again the fandom has discourse on why would Bulma get with a warlord responsible for mass genocide that was complicit in the murder of most of her friends and the answer really is just How else was Vegeta gonna have a kid from the future?

That, and legit it makes me wonder how they even progressed to that point in the first place. We can see that Vegeta really shows almost no affection or feelings of that nature toward Bulma given his tsundere, brooding Saiyan warrior personality and she seems to put more effort into the relationship than he does. Toriyama had paired them together so he could establish them as Trunks' parents in the Artificial Humans/Android arc but i doesn't see much chemistry between them as a couple, it doesn't feel like that much of a marriage especially considering Vegeta is from another world where relationships between males and females of his race were very different, at least before DB Minus upended that with Bardock and Gine because even where he has scant moments of something resembling care towards her (the whole My Bulma thing in Battle of Gods) it still feels like something steering from his Saiyan nature and not genuine romantic affection.

Is it really that hard to buy into? I might've thought so when I was young but throughout my adult experience, I've definitely seen enough similar pairings that it no longer seems as outlandish.

The women loving bad boys trope is common enough to be well known throughout society and it's not as if there's no truth to it. Plenty of women will try to 'fix' bad men they're attracted to and the guys can often get away with not being romantic or treating them well at all. Hell, there are women out there who become infatuated with criminals in jail that they've never even met, but that's an extreme example. Vegeta would definitely fit the 'bad boy' archetype at the very least and his indifference to her probably helped generate her attraction more than if he had pursued her.

We also have to keep in mind that Bulma is a woman that's incredibly wealthy, and intelligent to boot, meaning she's not going to prioritise seeking a provider who can offer her financial security as all her needs are already met. For a woman like that who's also good looking, it's presumably genetics (studs) that she's after and we see this with her previous infatuation with Yamcha, a guy with questionable morals and few life prospects other than being a fighter or bandit. I would guess her attraction to him was mostly physical, while it lasted.

For her, someone like Vegeta would probably be an appealing catch just in terms of his Saiyan genetics alone, never mind the pragmatic aspect of his strength and the protection that comes with that. Why she never made a move on Goku prior to meeting another Saiyan? That I don't know, but I can only guess it had something to do with her viewing him more of a brother after knowing him since he was a child, but that's just a theory. You could also say it had something to do with Chi-chi being in the way.

Also, we should bear in mind that, in their world, death has little to no consequence as a result of the Dragon Balls. That's something we can't really relate to in our world so who knows how that would mess with someone's moral compass. If a guy dies but comes back to life you're less likely to hold any kind of grudge unless you were the one who was killed. On top of that, the War Bride Effect could play a factor there too since women (generally) seem to have an easier time getting over previous male partners.

Overall I definitely view it as a relationship built on opportunism rather than purely romantic love, this goes for Vegeta too as he eventually succumbed to the pragmatism of having all his needs met by a wealthy woman. It's more unrealistic in my view that she got back with him and took care of him after becoming a single mother, but she probably didn't see herself doing much better than him or seeking a 'normal' life with a regular guy didn't satisfy her after the crazy things she experienced.

[Adamant]

You could also say it had something to do with Chi-chi being in the way.

It is. She realizes she's into him an hour or so AFTER he's engaged, and has a line in the Freeza arc where she grumbles to herself about her annoyance that she missed out on that prize. She'd definitely have gone for it had Chichi not been there.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Chi Chi's only goal was to fuck Goku. After that she became the archetype of bitchy house wife.
Bulma out their flashing her panties and literal vag and is bitchy as well. Only upside is she can make tech.
Android 18's introduction is mostly rooted in being Krillin's wife with the sexual element of that kiss during battle. Goes from strong to house wife status.
Videl starts out with a fighter's mindset regardless of her strength then becomes a moe blob house wife once she gets her man.
Launch is funny but also very sexualized with lots of horny Roshi moments.
Android 21 is just, horny the character.
Kale (anime) only personality is being a moe blob and obsessed with Caulifla.
Caulifla doesn't have enough time to flesh her out.
Pan gets sexualized a few times and is unable to turn super saiyan or contribute anything meaningful.
Oceanus Shenron is wished by fucking panties so instantly loses credibility
Mai gets sexualized a few times and then later ends up wanting Trunks as a kid because she was wished into a kid?

Idk mans, nothing spectacular here on the women side. Just a lot of horny while the macho men get to be steroided heroes.

[JulieYBM]

Chi Chi's only goal was to fuck Goku. After that she became the archetype of bitchy house wife.
Bulma out their flashing her panties and literal vag and is bitchy as well. Only upside is she can make tech.
Android 18's introduction is mostly rooted in being Krillin's wife with the sexual element of that kiss during battle. Goes from strong to house wife status.
Videl starts out with a fighter's mindset regardless of her strength then becomes a moe blob house wife once she gets her man.
Launch is funny but also very sexualized with lots of horny Roshi moments.
Android 21 is just, horny the character.
Kale (anime) only personality is being a moe blob and obsessed with Caulifla.
Caulifla doesn't have enough time to flesh her out.
Pan gets sexualized a few times and is unable to turn super saiyan or contribute anything meaningful.
Oceanus Shenron is wished by fucking panties so instantly loses credibility
Mai gets sexualized a few times and then later ends up wanting Trunks as a kid because she was wished into a kid?

Idk mans, nothing spectacular here on the women side. Just a lot of horny while the macho men get to be steroided heroes.

Blooma's flashing scene is done without her consent because she is not aware that she is no longer wearing panties (somehow), which adds an extra layer of humiliation for Toriyama to the scene. Toriyama explicitly robs his female lead (the female that his child readers are supposed to feel is their representation and/or stand-in for women) of agency and then laughs at her for it.

Come on Toriyama.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Blooma's flashing scene is done without her consent because she is not aware that she is no longer wearing panties (somehow), which adds an extra layer of humiliation for Toriyama to the scene. Toriyama explicitly robs his female lead (the female that his child readers are supposed to feel is their representation and/or stand-in for women) of agency and then laughs at her for it.

Come on Toriyama.

Yeah women are written pretty cringe in Dragon Ball and a lot of media in general. We have a ways to go.

[goku the krump dancer]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

[UltraInstinctRorikon]

Konan from Naruto.

[MasenkoHA]

That's not really an equal comparison because unlike Mr. Whedon, Toriyama didnt go around parading as some "Male Ally" only to be smacking up his wife behind the scenes.

The point wasn't to compare the two. The point was Toriyama making a story with a female lead isn't proof he isn't sexist. With Whedon being the prime example of that. Far as we know Toriyama isn't a raging asshole . And he definitely never claimed to be a feminist so no worries about future hypocrisy there.

But none of Toriyama's DB Ladies are rooted in anything sexual or mysogynistic

Except Bulma who is characterized as extremely bitchy and shallow and nothing else. Throwing herself at what she knows is a shape shifting monster as soon as he turns handsome. Throwing herself at a Nazi-lite because he's hot and buff. And swooning over a alien she knows works for Space Hitler because he's hot until he transforms into his ugly form. And the target for a lot of easy sex jokes where she is the butt of the joke; accidentally exposing her vagina to a creepy old man and then later a doppelganger of her putting his face her tits. And her wish is to get a boyfriend. Because teen girl. Even Yamcha wanted to get rid of his social anxiety not just wish for a girlfriend. Dragon Ball Evolution is horrible but Bulma wanting fame and fortune is a honest improvement.

Even her being a techie is just a means to an end to furrher the story along. It doesnt inform her character like being bitchy and shallow and vain. She just can do those things because it makes the story easier.

And Chi Chi who by Z embodies the nagging wife stereotype when she isnt being the tiger mom.

And Lunch who becomes Roshi's cook and housekeeper because woman and the primary target for his sexual advancement and too air headed to even know he's trying to take advantage of her.


I also said before of the pre-Super female characters 18 fares the best of them and is mostly a victim of just showing up too late in the story when Toriyama wasn't interested in non-Saiyan characters anymore but even she ultimately just ends up feeling like Kuririn's prize for being such a swell guy he deserves a hot wife type thing. But again I think she's more of a byproduct of joining the cast when everyone who wasn't a Saiyan can get fucked as far as Toriyama was concerned and not a character who Toriyama just decided to turn into a housewife because woman. And hey she didn't get a personality lobotomy upon getting married like Videl did or an uber bitchy nag make over like Chi Chi. So good for her.


And Videl who starts out tough but also bitchy (which I don't personally have an issue with because hey she's at least proactive as a crime fighter and her You Piss Me off but I also like you dynamic with Gohan is more interesting than just plain wimmin be bitchin ala Bulma)who again got her ass beat and then promptly spends the rest of the story fretting over Gohan and nothing else (even Chi Chi at least slapped Majin Buu) and then completes her personality lobotomy by being Gohan's 1950s housewife and nothing else. She doesn't have to be a fighter. It would be odd if the story tried to make her able to keep up with Gohan. But they also didn't have to just make her Gohan's smiling homemaker.

They also arent bitchy, a bitch is needlessly mean for no reason and none of them are like that, a bit of a brat sure, over protective sure, kind of a tomboy sure but not bitchy.

They are. The jokes with Bulma in early Dragon Ball are 1. Tits 2. Overreacts to everything because short tempered 3. Dumb and shallow

And pretty much all of Chi Chi's character in Z revolves around her yelling at Goku or being overprotective of Gohan. With the show framing her as always being unreasonable.

Thats assuming she was being geared up for some big role in the arc only to fall short and there was nothing to suggest that, There was literally nothing she could do once things got dangerous, she realized she was only a big fish in a super small pond in Satan-City.

It's not assuming anything.

The story didn't HAVE to make Videl's last significant contribution as a fighter getting the shit kicked out of her and then immediately turn her into a happy personality deficient housewife but it did.

The story COULD have given Videl something anything after she calmed down and got married. But it didnt.
Gohan is allowed to give lectures, be a crime fighter as Great Saiyaman and participate in tournaments but Videl gets to stay at home or be Gohan's plus one at his lectures.

The DB Ladies are strong minded and don't bend to their husband's beck and call, hell its even openly stated in Super that saiyans like "Strong Women" so how can anyone say there're mysogynist undertones when being a strong woman is the exact opposite of it.
.

Because the story rarely positions them being strong minded as a good thing. 18 being the exception.

We're supposed to think Chi Chi is unreasonable and an irrational nag and tellingly most fans do see her that way.

Bulma is also mostly seen as bitchy with her being no nonsense with Vegeta at the end of the Namek saga and the Cell saga being the only time the story feels like its trying to pass her off as strong willed and not "the bitch who wouldn't stop being a bitch"

[MasenkoHA]

[


Is it really that hard to buy into? I might've thought so when I was young but throughout my adult experience, I've definitely seen enough similar pairings that it no longer seems as outlandish.

The women loving bad boys trope is common enough to be well known throughout society and it's not as if there's no truth to it. Plenty of women will try to 'fix' bad men they're attracted to and the guys can often get away with not being romantic or treating them well at all. Hell, there are women out there who become infatuated with criminals in jail that they've never even met, but that's an extreme example. Vegeta would definitely fit the 'bad boy' archetype at the very least and his indifference to her probably helped generate her attraction more than if he had pursued her.
.

There is a pretty big difference between bad boy and genocidal warlord who has at least a six figure body count.


It's not that Bulma can't get with Vegeta, shoot everyone else forgave him and pals around with him, its that Toriyama can't be bothered to give any reason for her to get with Vegeta she just had the only available vagina so Toriyama can do Vegeta's son from the future plot.


We also know Bulma's type. Its not bad boys. It's hot guys. Regardless of moral alignment. She wasn't turned on by General Blue being an off brand Nazi. She was turned on by him being a conventionally attractive buff dude. So I'm not buying murdering war lord is what gets Bulma wet. If she found Vegeta attractive she sure never expressed it until Toriyama rewatched Terminator and decided he wanted to do Kyle Reese

[bkev]

Man, this really turned into a can of worms. Not shocking, but I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed in the lack of nuance in some otherwise well-articulated arguments here.

When it comes to Chi-Chi, we have to remember that comparing anime Chi-Chi to manga Chi-Chi is two very different beasts. You can argue for either being the more sexist, as in the manga, she basically becomes a sidenote once they tie the knot and loses any chance to develop; however, in the anime, they emphasize housewife "bitchy" qualities, especially in filler revolving around Gohan's studies. If I'm not mistaken, any time she faints or does anything especially effeminate in Z-portion is anime only.

I think there's actually something to be said for Bulma as if not a progressive, a nuanced portrayal. At least, by Western standards. This is a lot to ask of people given how quick she is to flash early on, and I understand that; however, we have to remember that initially DB was meant to be a one-shot and that Toriyama's writing/artistic impulses mainly stemmed from experience with gag manga at the time. However, what I find interesting about Bulma is that she starts out mad horny. Most times she shows interest in men, she expresses her initial interest by focusing on looks and physical attraction over something like an emotional connection/crush mentality. It has been my experience that, when it comes to sex drive, it's usually men who think first with their... eh-hem, special parts... in Western media. And, if there's an exception to the rule, the woman is deemed a sex maniac. This is less apparent today than in the days of Dragonball; shows like Scrubs, which I find to not have aged as well was I'd hoped, do allow for both men and women to show that their sex drive causes them to give into their impulses on a regular, relatively illogical, basis.

But the thing about Bulma is that it's just a part of her character, it's not the main thing. She's a tech wiz. She's adventurous enough to try collecting the Dragonballs on her own before she meets Goku. She never lets go of some impulses, but if you don't see a difference between her character in 23rd Tenkaichi Bulma vs. the 21st Tenkaichi, then I don't know what show you're watching. She stays vain, but rounds off a bit. No longer is boy-crazy the predominant feature of her character. This is especially apparent in Z, where she really gets to flex her intellect by piloting the ship to Namek or analyzing Cell's time machine. She's gone from the Capsule Lady to a person who uses her intelligence to help her friends, even if she can still be more than a tad petty.

So yeah, I'm making a stretch when I say progressive, but I fully believe she's a well-rounded character beyond gag-manga based gender stereotypes. And she rarely, if ever, gets reduced to tomboy traits to prove it like Akane Tendo or other lady leads of the time.

There's no defending Videl, though. She's a real loss. I do enjoy seeing Gohan and her happy together, but I'd like her to have more of an impact on events than "hey, I'm Pan's mom!" every once in awhile.

[Misu]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

If we are talking about female characters in 80s battle shounen manga. Then bulma seems alright

[Majin Buu]

To expand on this sentiment: While I don't believe Toriyama hates women- he doesn't have to actively hate women to be sexist.

A person doesn't have to actively hate a particular group to believe ignorant, problematic things about said group.

Just putting this out there as a lot of people seem to hold active, conscious hate as their only standard for someone being sexist or bigoted in general, which makes it easy to overlook these sentiments when they're expressed by people who are not actively hateful; giving people room to downplay problematic stuff like this as "not that bad".

[DBZAOTA482]

Dragon Ball's writing for women is no worse than most shonen.

I mean, it's not great but it can be a lot worse like with Naruto or Death Note (which is otherwise a masterpiece).

[JulieYBM]

Bad is bad and there's no issue just stating that it's bad. We don't need to compare it to other franchises or give it excuses like "it was the 1980s!" Because it does not have feelings. Meanwhile, this shit perpetuates harmful shit about women.

Fans will cry about the idea that fucking Gohan needs better writing and his writing should be criticized untilnthe cows come home but god forbid they have the same attitude toward the shitty writing of women in this series.

[DBZAOTA482]

Bad is bad and there's no issue just stating that it's bad. We don't need to compare it to other franchises or give it excuses like "it was the 1980s!" Because it does not have feelings. Meanwhile, this shit perpetuates harmful shit about women.

Fans will cry about the idea that fucking Gohan needs better writing and his writing should be criticized untilnthe cows come home but god forbid they have the same attitude toward the shitty writing of women in this series.

I wasn't necessarily defending the writing for the women in Dragon Ball. I'm just saying shonen is sexist by nature and if you expect the female characters to be well written, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

[JulieYBM]

Bad is bad and there's no issue just stating that it's bad. We don't need to compare it to other franchises or give it excuses like "it was the 1980s!" Because it does not have feelings. Meanwhile, this shit perpetuates harmful shit about women.

Fans will cry about the idea that fucking Gohan needs better writing and his writing should be criticized untilnthe cows come home but god forbid they have the same attitude toward the shitty writing of women in this series.

I wasn't necessarily defending the writing for the women in Dragon Ball. I'm just saying shonen is sexist by nature and if you expect the female characters to be well written, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

Women and minorities have been told this for decades though. Furthermore, it's of no solace to the women within the industry discriminated against and hamstrung.

I swear, I'm not trying to be a bitch, but there is literally no reason to not expect better. There is no compromise between making female and minority rep in these works better and not. People have nothing to gain settling for the status quo and everything to gain from saying "eat shit asshole, do better".

[MasenkoHA]

I'm just saying shonen is sexist by nature and if you expect the female characters to be well written, you're just setting yourself up for disappointment.

While I think its always useful to acknowledge the context of Dragon Ball's writing i.e An 80s gag manga turned kung fu manga aimed at grade school boys written by a man who grew up in a patriarchal mostly homogeneous society in the 60s, that doesn't give it a free pass from criticism. It helps understand why its like that but we should still acknowledge the faults and expect better going forward.

And hey Dragon Ball Super has done better (not in writing quality obvious) more female characters that arent destined to become housewives! Less crass sexual harrassment humor* A queer coded character that isnt a joke about gay people being weird or creepy



* I know there's still THOSE Roshi scenes but still less frequent than the original manga.

[Lord Beerus]

Any examples of well written women, just so I can have an idea of who y'all are comparing Bulma to when y'all say these things.

There are literally thousands of examples if we're strictly speaking of manga and/or anime in general.

But for the sake of this thread, if you want my go-to list of fantastically written women characters in shonen series:
- Maetel (Galaxy Express 999)
- Kimie Nakaoka (Barefoot Gen)
- Tima (Metropolis)
- Sirene (Devilman)
- Ryoko Tsugumo (Area 88)
- Sawa Nakamura (The Flowers of Evil)
- Deunan Knute (Appleseed)
- Shoko Nishimiya (A Silent Voice)
- Mamiya (Fist of the North Star)
- Jolyne Cujoh & Lisa Lisa (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
- Genkai (YuYu Hakusho)
- Clare (Claymore)
- The entire main cast (Silent Möbius)
- Haru (Beastars)

And most of these series were written either before or during the same time Dragon Ball was being published...