Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I'm starting to think that the novel was indeed correct and SS Broly > Jiren.

Jiren only really needs to be stronger than SS2 Kefla, who was implied to be around 40 times stronger than SSB Goku. 50 times stronger than SSB should be enough.

I guess since Gogeta came into existence with Goku already having UI, he received a much larger fusion boost than Vegetto did back in the Zamasu arc. Maybe Gogeta didn't even need to use SSB against Broly. Who knows really.

I have seen people draw comparisons between UI Sign and SSJ Goku because of the way Goku progresses from KKx20 to Genki-Dama to new form, so 50x Blue is a good multiplier for Sign.

SSJB Goku: 1
~ KKx20: 20
~ Genki-Dama: 30
~ UI Sign: 50

SSJ Kefla: 30
~ SSJ2: 60
~ Beyond limits: 75

SSJB Goku (Vs Kefla): 1.5
~ KKx20: 30
~ UI Sign: 75
~ Kamehameha: 90

SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Vs Jiren): 2
~ Kaio-Ken x20/SSJBE: 40

Hakaishin Toppo: 45
SSJBE Vegeta (Enraged): 50

Final UI Sign Goku: 100

Jiren: 120
UI Goku: 150

Of course, this is very, very oversimplificated and minimalistic, but it might be closer to AT’s vision. But then his drafts also had Merged Zamasu pretty weak. He probably has something like this:

SSJG Goku: 6
Android 17: 7.2
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Gammas: 7.5
Merged Zamasu/Super Piccolo: 8
Jiren/UI Goku/Cell Max: 9
Broly/Beerus/UI Gohan: 10
SSJB Vegetto/Gogeta: 12?
Whis: 15

Bruh. Don’t ask about Kefla though. She wasn’t in AT’s drafts since Toei made Kale IIRC, but Kefla was mentioned in DBS Broly so who knows.

[ZombieVito]

I have seen people draw comparisons between UI Sign and SSJ Goku because of the way Goku progresses from KKx20 to Genki-Dama to new form, so 50x Blue is a good multiplier for Sign.

SSJB Goku: 1
~ KKx20: 20
~ Genki-Dama: 30
~ UI Sign: 50

SSJ Kefla: 30
~ SSJ2: 60
~ Beyond limits: 75

SSJB Goku (Vs Kefla): 1.5
~ KKx20: 30
~ UI Sign: 75
~ Kamehameha: 90

SSJB Goku/Vegeta (Vs Jiren): 2
~ Kaio-Ken x20/SSJBE: 40

Hakaishin Toppo: 45
SSJBE Vegeta (Enraged): 50

Final UI Sign Goku: 100

Jiren: 120
UI Goku: 150

You now, after inspecting these numbers, I like them. I would put Toppo and Vegeta higher than Kefla but this is fine too. Where would you put SSB Vegetto and Corrupted Fused Zamasu though?

Having Jiren not be thousands upon thousands of times stronger than SSB Goku is very nice. Problem now is that SSB Gogeta gets so ridiculous higher than Jiren, it's very funny.

Question to everyone: What is the lowest multiplier you would give to SSG and SSB?

[HeroR]

Spoiler:

Vegeta is either too egotistical to admit it.that Goku and Vegeta were nothing to him. Or this is another Toriyama retcon. We will see when official translations come out

Lol, never mind.

Base Gogeta being Blue tier still bloats everything to hell.

It will prob be better explained in official translations or when the anime returns and it is retconned again. Sort of like when Beerus on used 70% of his power against GoD Goku. While in the anime he used like 7% haha.

It was less than 70% in Battle of Gods. And it was so one-sided it boarders on 50% Frieza vs base Goku.

[Helios518]

Of course, this is very, very oversimplificated and minimalistic, but it might be closer to AT’s vision. But then his drafts also had Merged Zamasu pretty weak. He probably has something like this:

SSJG Goku: 6
Android 17: 7.2
SSJB Goku/Vegeta/Gammas: 7.5
Merged Zamasu/Super Piccolo: 8
Jiren/UI Goku/Cell Max: 9
Broly/Beerus/UI Gohan: 10
SSJB Vegetto/Gogeta: 12?
Whis: 15

Bruh. Don’t ask about Kefla though. She wasn’t in AT’s drafts since Toei made Kale IIRC, but Kefla was mentioned in DBS Broly so who knows.

Considering we just learned that Toriyama forgot that the current series is called "Dragon Ball Super", I really doubt that he took into account an interview line for a 2013 retconned movie when making drafts for Super.

[Goku9001]

I think we might be missing the point here. I don't think the movie ever served to firmly establish any concrete powerscaling whatsoever. Rather, I think the movie serves the purpose of where Toriyama wants/expects the story to go such as Beerus being a benchmark that Goku, Vegeta, and Broly that is closing in on, Jiren remaining relevant compared to the Hakaishin, Broly remaining as a powerful rival for Goku and Vegeta, Gohan becoming the strongest, etc. The story can take multiple avenues to reach the destination that is Super Hero. Goku and Vegeta honing their minds during the Granolah arc brings them much closer to Beerus, Broly refining his powers allows him to keep up with the Saiyans, Jiren is brought back and stronger than ever, etc. Toriyama is heavily involved in the manga's story and since Super Hero was in development prior to the Moro arc, I'm certain he's considered how to tie in the story with Super Hero.

[SaiyanGod117]

I don't understand how Gohan is the strongest when he barely trains and never trained under an angel.

[Goku9001]

I don't understand how Gohan is the strongest when he barely trains and never trained under an angel.

It will be very interesting seeing this as a continuation of the Granola arc. Both Granola and Gas (presumably) had to undergo a significant risk to obtain their power and Gohan's dormant power alone naturally lends him the strength to be stronger than the both of them.

[Issei189]

I don't understand how Gohan is the strongest when he barely trains and never trained under an angel.

Well, It has been stated like 2 or 3 times in DBS that Gohan has the highest latent potential and we have seen Gohan's natural talent of easily getting stronger without much training. In the anime, He reached SSB tier when he unlocked more power while sparring with Goku and in the manga, he reached SSB tier by simply training in the Gravity room since the Goku Black arc. If Gohan ever needed any special training to be the strongest then they would already have mentioned or shown it

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Goku9001]

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

How so? The anime accounts for that by Goku and Vegeta growing much stronger to bridge the gap between them and Jiren. Regardless of your interpretation of the statement, it's made clear Jiren's power was so much greater than Goku's. As Whis stated, Jiren was far from full power whereas Goku was already at his limits.

[HeroR]

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

How so? The anime accounts for that by Goku and Vegeta growing much stronger to bridge the gap between them and Jiren. Regardless of your interpretation of the statement, it's made clear Jiren's power was so much greater than Goku's. As Whis stated, Jiren was far from full power whereas Goku was already at his limits.

To add to this, Belmond in Episode 126 when Vegeta went SSBE for the first time actually said he hasn’t seen Jiren used so much power in a long time when fighting Blue Goku. Just Blue Goku after he stomped Blue Kaioken x20 just 20 minutes ago in real time. So Belmond is saying Belmond is using more power now than he used to pound Blue Kaioken x20 and Goku did better.

The anime spelled out to us that Goku got stronger and Jiren was so strong that Goku said he has never been hit so hard before. It doesn’t get more clear outside of Whis standing up and saying he’s stronger than Zamasu.

[SupremeKai25]

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

How so? The anime accounts for that by Goku and Vegeta growing much stronger to bridge the gap between them and Jiren. Regardless of your interpretation of the statement, it's made clear Jiren's power was so much greater than Goku's. As Whis stated, Jiren was far from full power whereas Goku was already at his limits.

Nope, they never grew stronger.

Vegeta says that they had no reason to grow stronger, since the gap in raw power between them and Jiren wasn't that big.

This means that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as they were in the fight against Black and Zamasu, and this also means that, back then, their power gap with Jiren wasn't significantly big.

Since the power gap between Vegeta and Jiren wasn't that big, that means that the gap between Goku Black (Vegeta and Goku's rival) and Jiren wasn't that big either. We will now have to re-evaluate how Fused Zamasu compares to Jiren.

Goku only defeated Jiren because he stopped thinking only in terms of raw power and started using instincts/calm/focus/discipline, like Jiren did.

Anything the anime said about their "power growth" (still unproven btw) is rendered moot and retconned by this new movie. And besides, isn't it said in another movie (RoF maybe?) that the two Saiyans no longer have Zenkai boosts to grow stronger mid-fight?

Jiren was never supposed to be almighty and untouchable, and if it came off as that from the anime, it was Toei jacking him off too much (like they did with Future Trunks in the previous arc).

[HeroR]

In the end, some in the fandom thought Jiren was so "almighty" simply because of that statement from Shin in 109, where he said that Jiren felt "different" than anyone else or something like that. But that statement was very ambiguous and most likely referred to Jiren's true hidden depth of power (Limit-breaking form), some in the fandom simply misinterpreted it and thought it means Suppressed Jiren > Fused Zamasu/Vegito, but in the end that was never the case. Jiren's strength was blown out of proportions by some people and this new movie rectified that.

How so? The anime accounts for that by Goku and Vegeta growing much stronger to bridge the gap between them and Jiren. Regardless of your interpretation of the statement, it's made clear Jiren's power was so much greater than Goku's. As Whis stated, Jiren was far from full power whereas Goku was already at his limits.

Nope, they never grew stronger.

Vegeta says that they had no reason to grow stronger, since the gap in raw power between them and Jiren wasn't that big.

This means that Goku and Vegeta were as strong as they were in the fight against Black and Zamasu, and this also means that, back then, their power gap with Jiren wasn't significantly big.

Since the power gap between Vegeta and Jiren wasn't that big, that means that the gap between Goku Black (Vegeta and Goku's rival) and Jiren wasn't that big either. We will now have to re-evaluate how Fused Zamasu compares to Jiren.

Goku only defeated Jiren because he stopped thinking only in terms of raw power and started using instincts/calm/focus/discipline, like Jiren did.

Anything the anime said about their "power growth" (still unproven btw) is rendered moot and retconned by this new movie. And besides, isn't it said in another movie (RoF maybe?) that the two Saiyans no longer have Zenkai boosts to grow stronger mid-fight?

Jiren was never supposed to be almighty and untouchable, and if it came off as that from the anime, it was Toei jacking him off too much (like they did with Future Trunks in the previous arc).

That was never said in Resurrection ‘F’. ThE whole thing about Saiyans not getting stronger mid-fight was said by Trunks in the manga only.

Jiren was unstoppable in the manga too. The only time he looked weak was when Roshi flexed on him. Jiren outright defeated UI Goku in the manga while the anime version accepted that he lost. And Toriyama’s version of Fusion Zamasu was so weak that two normal Super Saiyan God Super Saiyans stalled him for an hour, while Jiren in all media needed a new form. The anime and the manga makes it perfectly clear that Fusion Zamasu is nothing to Jiren.

If anything, Fusion Zamasu got the hand treatment all so they would have an excuse to insert Vegito.

[Hugo Boss]

Regarding Merged Zamasu’s strength, in Toriyama’s original draft, he wasn’t so formidable and, because the key factors were “Potara’s time limit” and “immortality”, Goku and Vegeta taking turns would be enough to beat him. Toyotaro, then, implies he altered the plot to create a situation in which Goku and Vegeta had no other choice but fusing. And the rest unfolds like the manga shows.

This is probably how you read Zamasu’s strength in the movie continuity, so, no matter how you slice it, he is not as tough as Jiren or Broly.

[SupremeKai25]

Regarding Merged Zamasu’s strength, in Toriyama’s original draft, he wasn’t so formidable and, because the key factors were “Potara’s time limit” and “immortality”, Goku and Vegeta taking turns would be enough to beat him. Toyotaro, then, implies he altered the plot to create a situation in which Goku and Vegeta had no other choice but fusing. And the rest unfolds like the manga shows.

This is probably how you read Zamasu’s strength in the movie continuity, so, no matter how you slice it, he is not as tough as Jiren or Broly.

Irrelevant, because we know Fused Zamasu was at least as strong as Vegeta, thus the power gap between him and Jiren was never that big. Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu, just like he never easily beat Vegeta and Goku.

Btw, people here keep misinterpreting that statement about Zamasu. Goku and Vegeta could have won in a 1v2 not because they are stronger or Zamasu is weaker, but purely because of the Fusion time limit. Goku and Vegeta just so happened to be strong enough that Zamasu couldn't outright oneshot them, so through tactics and strategy they could stall long enough for his fusion time to run out.

It's no different than the Kid Buu fight. Fat Buu and Vegeta defeated Kid Buu not because they were stronger, but because they stalled long enough for Goku to create the Genkidama, they won, but not because they were stronger.

And in the end, Toriyama stated that the power gap between Vegeta and Jiren wasn't that large.

[CortoMaltese]

Several things to consider.
GAMMA 2 wasn't at full power against orange Piccolo.
Picolo wasn't able to damage cell when GAMMA 2 full power weakened Cell Max.
Fat Gotenks himself is able to slightly crack Cell Max's dome.
GAMMA 1 at 18% is equal to Ultimate Gohan.
Gohan beat a WEAKENED cell (thanks to Gamma 2) with the help of Gotenks, Piccolo, Gamma 1 and Gamma 2, Krilin and C18.
So it's not really hard to think that the 7 guys are as strong or even stronger than Goku and Vegeta Blue.

All statements are pretty vagues (Gamma 1 and 2 MIGHT BE comparable to Goku, Gohan say's MAYBE Goku can't dealt with Cell Max)...
So take everything with a salt of grain....
Add that Goku and Vegeta are training for several weeks with Beerus so they don't know exactly their current power levels.

What we're sure is that Gamma 1 >>> Ultimate Gohan.
Gamma 2 is the strongest after Gohan blanco....
I'd say it's more like this.
Gohan Blanco>Cell Max>Gamma2>Piccolo Orange and Gamma1>Piccolo ultimate>Gohan ultimate.
If we think Gamma 2 and 1 are similar to Goku and Vegeta SS Blue from Broly (last time piccolo see them fighting), so Gohan blanco is superior to Goku blue from Broly.
So nothing clearly state that current Goku and Vegeta SS blue are inferior to Gohan.

[Hugo Boss]

Irrelevant, because we know Fused Zamasu was at least as strong as Vegeta, thus the power gap between him and Jiren was never that big. Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu, just like he never easily beat Vegeta and Goku.

I’m not seeing what point you are trying to make. Even if Jiren and Zamasu had exactly the same battle power, Jiren can still do short work of him, due to his much efficient ki control that puts him on God of Destruction class.

[SupremeKai25]

Irrelevant, because we know Fused Zamasu was at least as strong as Vegeta, thus the power gap between him and Jiren was never that big. Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu, just like he never easily beat Vegeta and Goku.

I’m not seeing what point you are trying to make. Even if Jiren and Zamasu had exactly the same battle power, Jiren can still do short work of him, due to his much efficient ki control that puts him on God of Destruction class.

And it's fine if you think Jiren is still unbeatable thanks to his Ki control.

But for years people thought Jiren was unbeatable simply because of his raw power, to the point that people said he could just oneshot any antagonist that came before him. The movie clarifies that it's not like he's some almighty being with supreme power, he simply has incredible Ki control and focus. That makes him more grounded as a character, whereas before it didn't make sense that this orphan alien boy could somehow gain the power that surpasses the Destroyers. Now we know that his power doesn't surpass the Destroyer Gods, his skills lie elsewhere.

This is an important revelation, when the anime was airing, many people complained that it was dumb that this guy with no God training, no special bloodline or background, could reach that level that scares even Beerus. To me, this revelation finally fixes Jiren's dumb power level.

This also means that anyone can potentially reach that kind of level if they gain better focus and control over their Ki (whatever that means and whatever Jiren did).

[Hugo Boss]

And it's fine if you think Jiren is still unbeatable thanks to his Ki control.

I’m not saying that. I’m saying that this comparison between Zamasu and Jiren is weird, because of the reasons stated above. Zamasu can’t check a God of Destruction like Jiren does. This rereading of Jiren’s battle power doesn’t change his position, just adds more detail to how ki control can alter the perspective of your opponent of how strong you really is, which in the end is a big factor on how the fight will play out. So, while 2 Super Saiyan Blue would be more than enough to beat Merged Zamasu, 2 Super Saiyan Blue are unable to beat Jiren.

[Xeno Goku Black]

Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu

People can and will.

Anime or manga. The difference was immense.

[SupremeKai25]

Now people can no longer say that Jiren easily beats Zamasu

People can and will.

Anime or manga. The difference was immense.

If you say that he beats him because of "superior strength", then you are proven wrong by the new movie. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Unless you think that Fused Zamasu is somehow weaker than Vegeta, then it is stated that Vegeta never lost to Jiren due to a power level difference, but simply because Jiren had a better fighting style.

Of course, there is nothing stopping anyone from trying to copy and adapt to Jiren's style, especially in a prolonged fight.

In the end, "strength" was never Jiren's forte, it was his unique fighting style...