Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

I totally get the "Earthlings always managed to match Goku in the following arc(s)" angle, but that usually only applied to training-based improvements. They wouldn't be able to match things like the ridiculous Saiyan-exclusive healing boosts Goku reaped during the Namek arc, and I doubt their relatively squishy Earthling bodies would be able to stand anything near 100Gs either.

So that's the time period where I figure the Earthlings were probably just plain left in the dust and no longer able to catch up. In PL number terms I typically see Kuririn and Ten maxing out around 200k at best, with Yamcha and Chaozu being lucky if they ever broke 100k. If something official decided to throw out some new numbers and reveal that they all broke into the low millions then I'd be fine with it, but I'd still have a very large lingering question of "HOW?!"

[ZombieVito]

I meant in the following arc.
Humans always caught up to what Goku was before, fair to assume that following the trend they got massive power ups, although they still are off from Goku.

I don't know. Yamcha couldn't even surpass 22nd TB Goku after 8 years. Krillin barely did. Tenshinhan was almost half as strong as Goku by Raditz (250 vs 416).

[Koitsukai]

To me, it makes more sense for the android absorption to work not as straightforward, than everybody being on the tens of millions, getting their greatest gains on their own, on Earth, and not at Kaio's.
They got really strong in the afterlife training under higher gravity and with other people and a master, but their growth chart should start declining once they return back to life and train on their own with no master.

Not even BoG Goku broke the 120M mark, so if the fodder was 20M that early on, then Goku's growth would be laughable, including 7 years with Kaio and a year in the ROSAT with SS Gohan.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Gero does talk about adding their powers to his own, I think it’s pretty straightforward. This was discussed somewhere else a while ago and someone brought up a game where Gero absorbs Gohan’s hidden powers and beats Vegeta. I doubt that’s how it works though, otherwise he should have absorbed Piccolo’s suppressed power as well.

I think it’s fair to consider the humans are still “keeping up” at this point, in a very broad sense of the word, since the gap did get bigger every saga. Besides Gero thinking they got plenty of energy, nobody ever really makes a big deal out of Base Goku’s power. If Tenshinhan were like, 60k to Goku’s 3mil+ he wouldn’t need to see SSJ to have that meltdown. I have him and Kuririn at like, half or 1/3 of Goku’s power, with Yamcha a couple steps behind.

I totally get the "Earthlings always managed to match Goku in the following arc(s)" angle, but that usually only applied to training-based improvements. They wouldn't be able to match things like the ridiculous Saiyan-exclusive healing boosts Goku reaped during the Namek arc, and I doubt their relatively squishy Earthling bodies would be able to stand anything near 100Gs either.

Interestingly enough the narrator does say the human body would be instantly crushed at 100G, and some people take that to include the Z Fighters.

[Mireya]

To me, it makes more sense for the android absorption to work not as straightforward, than everybody being on the tens of millions, getting their greatest gains on their own, on Earth, and not at Kaio's.
They got really strong in the afterlife training under higher gravity and with other people and a master, but their growth chart should start declining once they return back to life and train on their own with no master.

Not even BoG Goku broke the 120M mark, so if the fodder was 20M that early on, then Goku's growth would be laughable, including 7 years with Kaio and a year in the ROSAT with SS Gohan.

Yamcha didn't surpass Goku from the 22nd Budokai at the 23rd, only if going with the 180 Daizenshuu number for Goku, which is a very doubtful estimation considering Yamcha's feats in the last tournament. Yamcha could keep up with weighted Goku's speed and Ten's before going FP, a speed said to be = that of post Choshinsui Goku, while there's a cap to following one's speed when the opponent's way stronger-- for example, the Ginyu Force mid tier members couldn't follow ~60k Goku's speed, despite the gap being slightly over 1.5x, neither could Kami follow Piccolo and Goku's full speed at the 23rd.

Not only that, but Yamcha warranted some compliments from Kami-sama and said that he could be overtaken if Yamcha kept up at it. That seems a very unlikely thing to say if Yamcha isn't even at 22nd Budokai Goku's level of power, a level that couldn't even scratch old Piccolo Daimao when this latter was using below half power. Kami is on a different level compared to that. His Sokidan could also move Shen quite coslnsiderably and damage him, even if slightly. It even surprised Tenshinhan, too. I'd say a good estimation could be having Yamcha and Kuririn, at the 23rd Budokai, in-between old Piccolo Daimao and young Piccolo Daimao's power. Maybe right in the middle.

[FeatsofPower]

I totally get the "Earthlings always managed to match Goku in the following arc(s)" angle, but that usually only applied to training-based improvements. They wouldn't be able to match things like the ridiculous Saiyan-exclusive healing boosts Goku reaped during the Namek arc, and I doubt their relatively squishy Earthling bodies would be able to stand anything near 100Gs either.

So that's the time period where I figure the Earthlings were probably just plain left in the dust and no longer able to catch up. In PL number terms I typically see Kuririn and Ten maxing out around 200k at best, with Yamcha and Chaozu being lucky if they ever broke 100k. If something official decided to throw out some new numbers and reveal that they all broke into the low millions then I'd be fine with it, but I'd still have a very large lingering question of "HOW?!"

The same way Freeza and 17 became Blue level out of nowhere. Plot.

[FeatsofPower]

To me, it makes more sense for the android absorption to work not as straightforward, than everybody being on the tens of millions, getting their greatest gains on their own, on Earth, and not at Kaio's.
They got really strong in the afterlife training under higher gravity and with other people and a master, but their growth chart should start declining once they return back to life and train on their own with no master.

Not even BoG Goku broke the 120M mark, so if the fodder was 20M that early on, then Goku's growth would be laughable, including 7 years with Kaio and a year in the ROSAT with SS Gohan.

If that's the case, there are severe consequences to that. Can you walk me through your theory a bit and I'll show you some of the issues?

Let's say, we start with a 10 to 1 ratio, would you want to start there or no?

[DanielSSJ]

The same way Freeza and 17 became Blue level out of nowhere. Plot.

Offering up two of the most egregious examples of unjustified power growth from a show that already has a reputation for nonsensical power scaling isn't gonna make it easier to swallow the idea that the Earthlings got massively stronger doing ordinary Earth training than they did training in the afterlife at 10Gs under Kaio's tutelage.

[LightBing]

I totally get the "Earthlings always managed to match Goku in the following arc(s)" angle, but that usually only applied to training-based improvements. They wouldn't be able to match things like the ridiculous Saiyan-exclusive healing boosts Goku reaped during the Namek arc, and I doubt their relatively squishy Earthling bodies would be able to stand anything near 100Gs either.

So that's the time period where I figure the Earthlings were probably just plain left in the dust and no longer able to catch up. In PL number terms I typically see Kuririn and Ten maxing out around 200k at best, with Yamcha and Chaozu being lucky if they ever broke 100k. If something official decided to throw out some new numbers and reveal that they all broke into the low millions then I'd be fine with it, but I'd still have a very large lingering question of "HOW?!"

I partially agree, in my first few power level lists I had humans topping at like 250k. However this would be contradictory to Dr.Gero's statements, which is as official as you're going to get.

The reason is plot, nothing more. Piccolo's power up before Namek or recently Freeza's four month training is even worst.

Toriyama is straight as an arrow, there's no reason to think Androids absorption has weird properties or that Gero is lying.
The whole plot revolves around their absorption; Yamcha being a good source set's up the danger. Otherwise who would care about them, if they had nobody worthwhile to eat up?

[ZombieVito]

I like to have the humans in the low millions in the Android arc since by the Tournament of Power it is implied they are stronger than base Goten and Trunks which are way over the 10 million mark.

[BWri]

I thought the community figured out Gero's Yamcha = Goku comparison ages ago. Gero thinks its him because the power exceeds human limits. Besides that, even if Yamcha was only around saiyan arc Vegeta's level, Gero would likely mistake him for Goku as he'd assume that only 3 or 4 people on the planet could reach that level (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, and maybe Gohan).

But in general, I've always thought that the humans gained a lot from Kaio's training. They gain a lot more in the anime but I think their power is relevant to the early android arc as well, otherwise, I don't think any of them would bother to show up like they did.

Anime-wise, I see them as being about as strong as a base Saiyan. I'm throwing a wide net when I say that starting from the base Vegeta that fought first from Frieza until base Vegeta from the current arc. I'd put all of them (except Chiaotzu) above Vegeta when he fought 1st Frieza.

• Base Vegeta (vs 19)

• Tien - anime seems to play up his power a lot since he took on Jheese and Burter and stayed on Kaio's planet. But in general, he's pretty good since he dodged Gero's eye laser alongside Goku, both he and Goku barely dodged it which shows similar speed/reflex feats.

• Gohan - with rage he's above Tien, but without it I think they may be on the same level during the early part of the arc. Gohan is likely stronger in general, but since he was sent away from the battlefield (likely due to age) I'll give the nod to Tien.

• Base Vegeta (vs Final form Frieza)

• Krillin - he immediately went to train with Roshi and I doubt it was anything less than grueling. I think he's only showing up if he can handle one of Frieza's forms, likely form 2. To me there's a few clues to show Tien > Krillin during this part, including Krillin being the one sent away to get Yamcha healed and Tien being in more of the combat parts of the story while Krillin was on the sidelines.

• Piccolo w/Nail (Namek arc)

• Yamcha

• 1st Form Frieza

• Chiaotzu

• Base Vegeta On Namek (vs 1st form Frieza)

• Chiaotzu

• Captain Ginyu

Manga-wise, Namek is still a huge benchmark for the humans and they are probably all between Recoome and 1st form Frieza. Tien still has the laser dodging feat though so IDK.

[DanielSSJ]

I think if I bumped the humans' post-Kaio levels up to where the anime indicates they're at (firmly beyond the Ginyu Force, sans Ginyu himself), I might be able to justify them being in the low millions when #19 and #20 show up to myself. Them being in the tens of millions is still too much for my credulity to stretch, though.

[FeatsofPower]

Let me show you guys the numerical issue...

Super Saiyan Vegeta 1,000
Piccolo 750
Android 20 625


Base Vegeta > Piccolo. There's nothing to indicate that the status quo has changed, there's no reason to assume Piccolo is stronger than Base Vegeta is. So if Base Vegeta is 50x weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta, adding his power to Gero's does nothing. Let's say Piccolo = Base Vegeta, just to make things perfectly clear.

Base Vegeta = Piccolo = 20

Android 20 + Piccolo Again = 645

Gero thinks he can beat Vegeta if he absorbs Piccolo again. If Gero absorbs such a weak Piccolo again, he is only going to be able to barely beat himself, let alone a foe much stronger than himself.

If we go with a 10x boost, things open up a bit more.

Base Vegeta = Piccolo = 100

Android 20 + Piccolo = 725

Ok, Android 20 is now 1.16x stronger than he was, it makes it a substantial power-up indeed.

Now for the humans to be adding substantial power to Gero, they can't be more than 20x weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta.

That's what people are generally missing. There's a numerical cap here, the humans can't be more than 20x weaker than Super Saiyan Vegeta to make these claims reasonable.

If the humans are indeed less than 20x Super Saiyan Vegeta from the Androids Saga, then they are tremendously powerful. Ranging from KKx10 to Kkx20 Goku on Namek.

Also, I see no issue with the anime filler depicting them being that strong.

[ZombieVito]

Base Vegeta > Piccolo. There's nothing to indicate that the status quo has changed, there's no reason to assume Piccolo is stronger than Base Vegeta is.

Krillin compares Piccolo to a fucking Super Saiyan.

[FeatsofPower]

Base Vegeta > Piccolo. There's nothing to indicate that the status quo has changed, there's no reason to assume Piccolo is stronger than Base Vegeta is.

Krillin compares Piccolo to a fucking Super Saiyan.

We are talking two different Piccolo's here.

Suppressed/Weighted Piccolo seems to be behind Base Vegeta, and then, FP/Unweighted Piccolo seems to be behind Super Saiyan Vegeta.

So the way I like to look at is, would be if Piccolo essentially had Super Saiyan himself. I break it down into Base Piccolo/SSJ Piccolo essentially to describe the differences.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah I like the idea of treating Piccolo like a Super Saiyan, as in he’s 50x stronger unweighted rather than the usual 1.25x. Up until he fought Gero everyone thought he was rivaling Base Goku as usual. Even if he is above Base Goku somehow, I doubt he showed power anywhere close to the 100 million before he started fighting.

[GatoF]

How shit was Gohan from RoF to early ToP? Since his SSJ2 was weaker than Piccolo a character who was base tier at that time. Is there a character with comparable power to this Gohan?

[ZombieVito]

How shit was Gohan from RoF to early ToP? Since his SSJ2 was weaker than Piccolo a character who was base tier at that time. Is there a character with comparable power to this Gohan?

He's exactly the same as his Boo arc self by episode 88.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

How shit was Gohan from RoF to early ToP? Since his SSJ2 was weaker than Piccolo a character who was base tier at that time. Is there a character with comparable power to this Gohan?

Future Trunks said Gohan didn’t seem as strong as he used to be, so I think it’s fair to say he’s at his Boo Saga level or even less for half the series.

We do see him sparring with Piccolo occasionally, but it’s probably not much since Gohan is so weak. He gives Goku a good fight in one of the filler episodes too, but Goku might have been suppressed as far as we know.

By the Zen Exhibition Match it seems his occasional training with Piccolo has finally paid off going by his fight with Basil. Unless Basil is somehow weaker than his little brother, I’d say Base Gohan is a bit weaker than Mr Boo at this point.

[FeatsofPower]

Hmm, I never thought about it like that. So that's what Trunks meant. Current Gohan is weaker than Kid Gohan, wow, hey, it might even be that he's even weaker than Buu Saga Gohan?

Because Gohan could transform into Super Saiyan 2 in the Buu Saga and turning Super Saiyan is a struggle to him here... Yet, he's still stronger than the boys...