Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think the best way to interpret the

I've heard this explanation before and it works to have the film fit in either manga or anime continuity. I think there would've at least been a comment acknowledging those forms if Toriyama had them in his film continuity. If anime retells Broly, Toei might have Goku and Vegeta use those forms before fusion like how they had Goku use Kaioken against Merged Zamasu before fusing into Vegetto.

I agree. Between how murky the continuity is, Toriyama’s faulty memory and him probably not even watching the anime, he probably just sees the non movie stories as he originally envisioned, a just bunch of notes and general cues. The manga pre Moro gets the closest to it due to how streamlined it was, but still has some things he didn’t come up with like Vegetto vs Zamasu or PSSJB.

Alternatively, the overall events of the movies still fit with a minor tweak or two in the anime and the manga, but for simplicity’s sake I’m more leaning into AT’s bare bones plot for now.

[Skar]

Ultimate Gohan can't be in that tier. He was on par with (Maybe even above) Gamma 1. Ultimate Piccolo also wasn't that inferior to Gamma 2, he could fight back somewhat.

Hell, if Orange Piccolo can casually one shot Gamma 2 like that then he has no business being in the same tier as him.

Ah ok. I remember Toriyama saying Orange Piccolo was on par with "Goku and co" but I assumed that meant their Blue forms. Does that mean Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan would be between Blue and UI? If Cell Max was compared to Broly, I don't think either of them could in the GoD tier.

[QuakingStar]

Orange Piccolo is above Blue tier, easily. Beast Gohan is above even that easily. He with no effort tanked Cell Max's full force punch.

[pepd]

So in the movie continuity is Orange Piccolo just Super Saiyan Blue level then?

It's all so complicated now. Tying it in with the manga he should be Ultra Instinct/Ultra Ego level.

Though if Orange Piccolo is Blue level then it means Ultimate Gohan and the others are....the same as where there were in the Buu Saga?

Ultimate Gohan in Super Hero ~ Ultimate Gohan Buu Saga?

It seems in the film continuity that Goku still can't access UI at will. We know Toriyama probably doesn't include the forms he didn't design like the Blue upgrades and Omen so I think it might be:

~GoD tier: Beerus, Broly, Jiren, UI Goku, Cell Max
Blue tier: Goku, Vegeta, Beast Gohan, Orange Piccolo, Gammas
SSJ3-God: Ultimate Gohan, Ultimate Piccolo

GoD tier might be the most vague since it includes anyone compared to a God of Destruction or compared to someone who was compared to one of them.

Yeah. I was trying to make sense of the power comparisons with manga Goku and Vegeta because the line of Whis restricting transformations explains the absence of MnG, but after considering it, I think the most likely is that those refer to the power most people saw them in Broly with(SSB), after all, these type of lines's function has always been to hype and give a general idea, and Tori has made clear his focus on the public: big movie audiences.

[ZombieVito]

Ah ok. I remember Toriyama saying Orange Piccolo was on par with "Goku and co" but I assumed that meant their Blue forms. Does that mean Orange Piccolo and Beast Gohan would be between Blue and UI? If Cell Max was compared to Broly, I don't think either of them could in the GoD tier.

It can't be their Blue forms. Piccolo not only tanked multiple punches from Gamma 2 but K.O him without effort.

Him lasting that long against Cell Max is also impressive. At the lowest I would put Piccolo at UI Sign level.

[Mr Baggins]

So in the movie continuity is Orange Piccolo just Super Saiyan Blue level then?

Maybe? I don't know why anyone would jump to that conclusion.

The movie's dialogue puts the Gammas on par with Goku and Vegeta, and since its script was written before the "Ultra" forms became accessible at will in the manga, we can assume it meant to use the Blue forms as a means of comparison.

Toriyama later compares Orange Piccolo to "Goku and co.", but does so in supplementary material outside of the film's context. If it's a recent statement, we can probably attribute it to the Ultra forms — and that would make sense, since Orange Piccolo is portrayed to be in a different league from the Gammas.

Does 'Orange ~ Ultra' and 'Ultimate ~ Blue' not seem like the most streamlined, straightforward interpretation? I dunno. That seems like the kind of scaling we'd get if both forms ever appeared concurrently later in the series.

[ZombieVito]

Does 'Orange ~ Ultra' and 'Ultimate ~ Blue' not seem like the most streamlined, straightforward interpretation? I dunno. That seems like the kind of scaling we'd get if both forms ever appeared concurrently later in the series.

I'm pretty sure that's how it will be once the anime returns.

Hopefully they adapt Broly and SH and make it clear cut on where both of them stand.

[Almighty Majin]

This is my personal interpretation of the movie continuity power scale...

Tier 1:
Beerus
Full Power SSJ Broly (Hypothetical Controlled Power)
SSJB Gogeta
Cell Max (Mind Program Complete)
Full Power SSJ Broly
Gohan Beast
Cell Max

Tier 2:
UI Goku
SSJ Broly
Jiren
UI - Sign Goku
Orange Piccolo

Tier 3:
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/Golden Freeza
Wrathful Broly
Ultimate Gohan
Gamma 1/Gamma 2
Ultimate Piccolo
Android 17

As for the anime continuity...

Tier 1:
Beerus
Full Power SSJ Broly (Hypothetical Controlled Power)
SSJB Gogeta
Cell Max (Mind Program Complete)
Full Power SSJ Broly
Gohan Beast
Cell Max

Tier 2:
UI Goku
SSJ Broly
Jiren
UI - Sign Goku
Orange Piccolo

Tier 3:
SSJBK Goku/SSJBE Vegeta/Golden Freeza
Wrathful Broly
Ultimate Gohan
Gamma 1/Gamma 2
Ultimate Piccolo

Tier 4:
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta
Android 17

An attempt at the manga continuity... oh boy... this one is a mess...

Tier 1:
Beerus
Black Freeza
Cell Max (Mind Program Complete)
Full Power SSJ Broly (Super Hero)
Jiren (Super Hero)
Gas
True UI Goku
Gohan Beast
Cell Max

Tier 2:
UI Goku/UE Vegeta
Granolah
Moro (Merus Power)
Merus
Moro 7-3
Full Power SSJ Broly (Hypothetical Controlled Power)
SSJB Gogeta
Full Power SSJ Broly
Orange Piccolo

Tier 3:
SSJ Broly
Jiren
Prime Moro
UI - Sign Goku/SSJBE Vegeta (Moro Arc)
Ultimate Gohan (Super Hero)
Gamma 1/Gamma 2
Ultimate Piccolo

Tier 4:
Moro
Golden Freeza
SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta
Wrathful Broly
Ultimate Gohan (Moro Arc)
Piccolo (Moro Arc)
Android 17

Justifying the relevance of Broly and Jiren in the power scale during Super Hero while considering the manga continuity...

In the case of Broly:
It is highly probable that Broly gained a substantial power boost after recovering from his fight against Gogeta. Goku states that Moro 7-3 is the toughest opponent he has faced at the time of fighting him, however we can say that Goku has not yet fought the newly recovered Broly and thus, we could say that: Broly (Post-DBS: Broly) > Moro > Broly (DBS: Broly). On top of that, Broly has been training on Beerus' planet as of Super Hero, so we can assume that he has become even stronger than that. It could be assumed that this training has allowed him to surpass the likes of Granolah and Gas while in his strongest form.

In the case of Jiren:
This one is a bit more difficult to justify, but hear me out on this. Around the end of the tournament of power, Jiren breaks his limits and gains even more power. By this point in the fight, Jiren is not only exhausted, but also enraged and thus, is unfocused. Vegeta in Super Hero emphasizes that Jiren's power and fighting ability come directly from his superior focus. With this in mind, perhaps we could say that then: Jiren (Limit Break State) + Full Stamina + Full Focus + [whatever training he's been up to until this point] = [A Jiren that would potentially be relevant to current Goku and Vegeta]

[Hugo Boss]

Toriyama later compares Orange Piccolo to "Goku and co.", but does so in supplementary material outside of the film's context. If it's a recent statement, we can probably attribute it to the Ultra forms — and that would make sense, since Orange Piccolo is portrayed to be in a different league from the Gammas.

I’m leaning towards this interpretation as well. Inside the context of the movie, there is no doubt the Gammas are at least on par with Goku and Vegeta. For Orange Piccolo to be on par with Goku as well, we are talking about a stronger version of Goku or Toriyama forgot how strong he made Piccolo and the Gammas.

Or maybe Toriyama is just reflecting on how it took so long for Piccolo to catch up with Goku, given he has been sidelined since he was defeated by Cell.

[Berserker1921]

My scaling mixing all the mediums. Excluding the angels and gods.

1. Black Frieza
2. Gohan
3. Broly/Jiren/SsjB Gogeta
4. Gas
5. Goku/Vegeta/Granolah
6. Cell Max/Piccolo/Moro
7. Gammas 1 and 2

As I see it, it’s all these guys. I have jiren up so high. Because how they keep mentioning and respecting the many years after the tournament. And I see him as the flip side of Broly. One is raw power and the other is pure skill. Two sides of the same coin.

[Miracles]

I finally seen the movie.

-The Gammas "seem" to be on par with Goku/Vegeta. An assumption [seem] by Piccolo in the movie. Since Toriyama comes out later and definitively says Piccolo is on par with Goku and Co. So the Gammas are weaker than Orange Piccolo/Goku/Vegeta.

-It was stated in the movie that Gohan could be stronger than Goku if he wanted [Always the case]. It was also said of Gohan that he can be the strongest in this world. All he has to do is cut loose. He did that with his new transformation. He truly became the strongest. Even Goku or Vegeta might not have been able to beat incomplete Cell Max. Piccolo then says that's why Gohan can't let his guard down.

This aligns with Toriyama's statement about how his "aim" for this movie was to showcase Gohan as "actually stronger than anyone." He definitely used Piccolo to do it with him pretending Pan was in danger. Then getting hammered by Cell Max. With those events Gohan definitely awakened and became the man again.

Broly is also being kept safe from Freeza. Who was previously the strongest in the past saga; Granolah The Survivor arc.

Scaling...

1. Son Gohan Beast
2. Black Freeza
3. Broly
4.Incomplete Cell Max [Don't really know]
5. Goku/Vegeta/Piccolo

[Skar]

It can't be their Blue forms. Piccolo not only tanked multiple punches from Gamma 2 but K.O him without effort.

Him lasting that long against Cell Max is also impressive. At the lowest I would put Piccolo at UI Sign level.

Ah ok. I suppose that would still be between Blue and UI since Toriyama might only have Goku go directly to UI if he ever has it appear in a film. I haven't seen SH yet and was just going off some spoilers I saw. I hope they appear again in a future film so we could see Goku and Vegeta's reactions to the new forms. Maybe in the manga if the next arc takes place after SH.

[Koitsukai]

Surprisingly, everybody seem to agree on the SH scaling. Gohan and Cell Max on the highest order where Broly, the Ultras, etc are, but below Freeza and Beerus; Orange Piccolo right below them, and the Ultimate forms around SSB level.
Also, wasn't there a spoiler saying Beerus freaked out at the sight of Broly's rage? lol nothing like that remotely happened.


And did Freeza finally reach his potential? training for 10 years straight after starting his martial artist's path which helped him unlock a sorta SS version seems like he's graduating from college, with flying colours.
Could he have even more room to grow? like having god ki? if Golden Freeza is his SS form, then Black Freeza would be his god form, even though he doesn't seem to have god ki?
Another boost should definitely put him ahead of the GoDs. I mean, how far from Beerus could he be?

How much stronger than the U7 strongest was he? he literally broke the guy sandbagging the Ultras, like Moro did to the Namekian Saviour, and then knocked the Ultra outta them.

And how strong could his FF be by now? or his Golden Form. I'm assuming he grew stronger in every form, but perhaps he only unlocked a new level of power.

[Xeno Goku Black]

At this point the only thing that's gonna make sense is if the anime comes back and they adapt Broly straight through to Super Hero.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Does 'Orange ~ Ultra' and 'Ultimate ~ Blue' not seem like the most streamlined, straightforward interpretation? I dunno. That seems like the kind of scaling we'd get if both forms ever appeared concurrently later in the series.

Orange ~ KKx20/SSJBE came to mind first, since it’s a power Goku and Vegeta can actually use at will. But Toriyama doesn’t really care about the forms he didn’t create so dunno. UI level seems a bit too high for Piccolo, he just blows Goku out of the water this way. It does go in line with him holding his own with Cell, but everybody was running circles around Cell anyway.

But AT saying Piccolo obtained power on pair with “Goku and co.” seems like an overall statement, more like “Yeah he’s up there instead of base level” rather than a hard = SSJB Goku. “Goku and co.” seems to encompass someone besides Goku and Vegeta, but it could mean other SSJB levels like 17 or Toppo.

[Mr Baggins]

Surprisingly, everybody seem to agree on the SH scaling. Gohan and Cell Max on the highest order where Broly, the Ultras, etc are, but below Freeza and Beerus; Orange Piccolo right below them, and the Ultimate forms around SSB level.

Beast Gohan could be as high as current Freeza, maybe, but this looks about right.

There's a small bit of mystery surrounding where some of SH's forms might stack up to the broader series, but I don't think there's anything nonsensical or contradictory about it. I definitely don't get the impression that this is meant to be in some isolated continuity. Everything seems fine to me.

“Goku and co.” seems to encompass someone besides Goku and Vegeta

It's likely just a shorthand for anyone around Goku's level. 17 and Toppo are probably out of the question, as those two would be on the Gammas' level. I don't think Orange Piccolo is strictly competing with a full-blown Ultra Instinct per se, but the general idea is that he's closer to it than Blue.

[ZombieVito]

At this point the only thing that's gonna make sense is if the anime comes back and they adapt Broly straight through to Super Hero.

I really hope they do adapt them. I hate when stories have these holes that you need other stuff to fill.

Also, hopefully Gogeta uses SSG instead of SS against SS Broly. That way you minimize the bloat.

[Koitsukai]

I actually think Whis being vague about the Oracle Fish and Freeza is also kind of a nod to SH, not just part of the manga narrative.

But yeah, I'm surprised Toyo won't need to retcon anything to fit the movie into his own continuity.
The movie explicitly avoids transformations, Broly is only mentioned to be a loose cannon that could jeopardize the planet(most of his ranking comes from the previous movie and from out-of-universe statements), Piccolo was never blue level as people thought based on his teamwork, so no retcon is needed there.
Not mentioning Moro or Granola makes sense, too. What could they learn from Moro or Granny, compared to Jiren? how to make dumb wishes or how to eat an android in one bite?
The only thing would be pretending Gohan didn't take part in the Moro arc, but even Piccolo was unaware Gohan had been doing stuff on the side, so not really an issue, I think. His Ultimate form wasn't that locked anyway. I'd like to see how that is told in the manga.
Hell, not even Pan not being able to fly is a problem if we consider the anime. Gohan also flew in a filler episode before properly learning how to fly.

Something that hasn't been mentioned about SH is that Vegeta > Goku. I don't rememeber now if the original manga ends with Geet's promise to surpass Goku or if it has that other ending. It'd be odd if he still wants to surpass him when he just beat the shit outta him a year ago.

[Skar]

And did Freeza finally reach his potential? training for 10 years straight after starting his martial artist's path which helped him unlock a sorta SS version seems like he's graduating from college, with flying colours.
Could he have even more room to grow? like having god ki? if Golden Freeza is his SS form, then Black Freeza would be his god form, even though he doesn't seem to have god ki?
Another boost should definitely put him ahead of the GoDs. I mean, how far from Beerus could he be?

I remember Toriyama saying Freeza would be weaker than Beerus no matter what he does. Of course that's a really old comment from RoF so might not apply anymore. I think GoD tier is the highest any mortal could reach since all the GoDs aren't too far apart and strongest mortals have always been compared to one for a few arcs now. Maybe Freeza's max potential could rival some GoDs but still slightly weaker than Beerus?

[Xeno Goku Black]

So from what I can make out there's a few different ways to take it.

1. You can go purely by the manga -> Broly movie -> manga where it's easy enough to make an order of things. Broly is just not really anything special there, apparently he's surpassed by Blue Evolved Vegeta even.

The Super Hero movie then just doesn't really fit with it, which would be fair enough because it was written before it.

2. You can follow the anime so it went anime -> Broly -> Super Hero and again it would make sense. Ultra Ego isn't a thing. Goku can't become Ultra Instinct at will. Jiren is still held in high regard and Broly is still the mortal at the top.

Orange Piccolo is like Blue Evolved/Blue Kaioken level and Cell Max and Beast Gohan fit somewhere within the Jiren range. From say 100% Jiren to Super Full Power Jiren.

3. Or kinda like the above but don't take take into account the things that Toriyama probably doesn't take into account so Blue Evolved and Ultra Instinct Sign. Jiren maybe wasn't so overwhelming powerful in his mind compared to what the anime portrayed. Maybe Android 17 isn't so special as far as he's concerned so neither are the Gamma's.

So Orange Piccolo is Blue level. Cell Max and Beast Gohan stronger than that but maybe not Ultra Instinct level or maybe that at best.