Is Dragon Ball the biggest manga/anime series globally?

[Zephyr]

Saw a big Akira poster at a Chinese resutrant in London not too long ago.



It's not something only people on the internet know.

Hopefully being promoted alongside One Piece and Boruto will finally give Akira the mainstream exposure it's been lacking all these years.

[DBZAOTA482]

This is emblematic of what makes trying to talk basic facts of reality so infuriating with you: Roger Ebert wasn't just some random, generic movie critic. The dude was an actual, honest to god celebrity for his time. He had a nationally televised show ("At The Movies") about movies that aired for literally over 20 years straight. His was literally as mainstream and associated with major Hollywood movies among the general public as people like Steven Spielberg or Bruce Willis.

I'm sure he was good at his craft (I've heard about him but never really looked into his work) and enjoyed quite a bit of success throughout his career, but pointing him on the same level as Steven Spielberg or Bruce Willis is really pushing it.

He VERY much demonstrably, factually was a majorly significant voice on movies and pop culture for more than 40+ years.

Yes, He was very successful at what he was doing, but again his career path is not the most lucrative out there.

Also coincidently, all the movies he screenwrote were all duds and critically panned.

Comic books. You know, those things with the words inside the little bubbles in paneled pictures?

Akira's manga was published in English in the United States by Marvel Comics under its Epic Imprint (which was comics aimed at older, adult aged readers) and was serialized in its original chapter length from 1988 to 1996 in almost its entirety. It sold generally well and was probably one of the top selling comics under the Epic brand for much of that brand's lifespan.

Akira was very much a fairly mainstream success for that time, having sold well as both a manga under Marvel's Epic brand, and as a VHS tape for the anime. People in broader culture in a general sense knew what Akira was by the mid-90s: and if they hadn't seen it, they were at a bare minimum aware of it as a "weird sci fi thing from Japan". Did that also include little kids on the playground in middle of nowhere Nebraska? No. But that demographic, as stated repeatedly now, is not the be-all, end-all of what constitutes "mainstream".

I did some research on the Epic Imprint and it has no history. It may have found a niche for itself but it's done and forgotten.

Little kids on the playground circa 1999/2000 who are obsessed solely/primarily with Saturday Morning Cartoons, Nintendo, Power Rangers, and WWF are not the center of the fucking universe. Other people, other demographics, and other spheres of interests exist, and in tremendously great abundance. You as one of those little kids back then not being aware of these other spheres of culture does not mean that they did not exist, nor does it mean that they weren't significant or part of the mainstream. You're just being willfully ignorant and refusing to face incredibly simple and not at all difficult to grasp reality at this point.

Only 5 million copies sold overseas in 2000 is a thing.

Answer a simple question then: is an adult audience a "valid" demographic to you or isn't it? If something is aimed at adults rather than kids and is a success among adults but not among children, then would you consider it to be "mainstream"?

It depends on the accolades. Akira can definitely be considered a cult and critical success, but commercially it was merely a stepping stone for anime in the west. It failed in Japan, however.

If you want to bring whether or not a major hit anime was "beneficial to the image of anime" into this discussion: then I can be here a LONG time going into detail why Dragon Ball was no more beneficial to anime's Western image than Pokemon was. BOTH Pokemon and DBZ alike I would argue were equally detrimental to the overall image of Japanese anime in north America during the turn of the millennium.

Dragon Ball was definitely more beneficial to the image of anime in the west than Pokemon. It was edgy, had a distinct story-driven plot, and mass appeal (martial arts is universally revered and respected). The Saiyan and Namek arcs in particular had pretty much everything you can ask for in an anime (drama, comedy, action, character development, etc.).

I've met many kinds of Dragon Ball in passing, even old women.

The "Mon" shows by comparison are almost exclusively watched by children and have largely been phased out.

Yes, they lead to the monstrous success and continued juggernaut that is "Shonen": but guess what? Anime is a LOT more than just fucking Shonen. Not all of us are (or ever have been) enthralled with the dominance of Shonen. Not everyone believes that Shonen being the dominant face of anime in the West is or ever was such a fucking good thing.

Battle Shonen are running things and that's a problem? The state of anime in the west can never be better. It's now reaching out to wide variety of audiences, the quality of English Dubs have went up drastically over the years, there's a wide selection of different anime on streaming sites like Netflix and Hulu, and it's easily accessible to the everyman.

Do we actually need to go over why/how exactly gauging a person's impact on the cultural landscape by how much money they made is... incredibly flawed, incredibly moronic, and shallower than all hell logic?

Christ, Mozart's music has literally helped set a new baseline for musical theory and composition, and he literally died penniless and was buried in a pauper's grave. Same with van Gogh with painting. Henry Darger ended up becoming one of the most significant avant garde artists of the last half century with his work having an incredible impact on visual design for countless future artists and just for many people's basic conceptions of art more broadly: and he spent pretty much his entire life as little more than an anonymous hospital janitor, no richer than you or I.

Mozart's music is taught throughout music classes in schools so he's definitely someone your average joe would know about. HIs CD even outsold Beyonce's whole album. He was simply ahead of his time.

I doubt the average joe is basing what movie they watch on what a movie critic says.

Do you not realize how you're literally contradicting yourself within a couple of posts back to back in the same thread? Either something is mainstream if it does well within its intended demo OR its mainstream if it crosses over beyond just its one demo. You can only PICK ONE of these, you can't literally say two things that are the exact opposite and claim that both are true.

Success is a very abstract concept. It can't be easily defined but if you set records, get awards, earn acclaim, etc., you can say you succeed.

[Soppa Saia People]

i don't think you've actually made one good, or accurate point this entire thread, and people pointing that out isn't Different Strokes or them just disagreeing, you've just been wrong the entire conversation.

[Zephyr]

I'm sure he was good at his craft (I've heard about him but never really looked into his work) and enjoyed quite a bit of success throughout his career, but pointing him on the same level as Steven Spielberg or Bruce Willis is really pushing it.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. Siskel and Ebert are household names.

[DBZAOTA482]

I'm sure he was good at his craft (I've heard about him but never really looked into his work) and enjoyed quite a bit of success throughout his career, but pointing him on the same level as Steven Spielberg or Bruce Willis is really pushing it.

I'm pretty sure that's the point. Siskel and Ebert are household names.

Yes they are well-known but is the general public actively invested in their critiques?

Remember Akira only had a very limited release theatrically overseas and neither the manga or home video releases did crazy numbers.

[MasenkoHA]

but is the general public actively invested in their critiques?
.

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

The point is they were well known. You seem to be hyperfocusing on everyone telling you their opinion matters when absolutely nobody has said that. Like literally nobody.

Their show lasted from the 80s all the way til 2010 (more than a decade after Siskel's death)

And it wasn't just Akira they also reviewed stuff like Ghost in the Shell and Kiki's Delivery Service.

Ebert wrote an article in 99 about how anime was a huge growing market in the US with video shelves filled with anime. And no he wasn't talking about shit like Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z

Do you think nobody watched their show or read their columns in their respective newspaper publications?

[DBZAOTA482]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

Akira is a cult hit that allowed for more mature anime to be released by showing it wasn't just "kiddie" stuff. It can be violent (grotesque even) and dark but thought-provoking and had beautiful art/animation that rivals the Disney movies of that time.

It's very popular but is still rather niche.

It wasn't the push for anime to mainstream status but it was a start.

[JulieYBM]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

Jesus fuck, what?

[MasenkoHA]

.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

I just lost a few brain cells reading this attempt at a gotcha. You're not even comparing apples to oranges. You're
comparing apples to concrete.

Akira is a cult hit that allowed for more mature anime to be released by showing it wasn't just "kiddie" stuff. It can be violent (grotesque even) and dark but thought-provoking and had beautiful art/animation that rivals the Disney movies of that time.

It's very popular but is still rather niche.

It wasn't the push for anime to mainstream status but it was a start.

Sure, it didn't single handedly push anime into the mainstream (and I don't think anyone said it did?) but it was a symptom of anime's growing presence in the states. The main thing here is anime had gone mainstream well before DBZ did. All DBZ did was introduce its target audience to anime and (along with Sailor Moon) ensured Toonami would mostly focus on anime (but also because the guy running Toonami was an an anime fan himself and even took the extra time to make Tenchi Muyo suitable for Y7FV standards so it could be introduced to Toonami's audience because he was a fan of that series)


Anime went mainstream before DBZ came to the States is what everyone has been trying to tell you and you refuse to accept because it goes against the crown you placed on DBZ's head.

[jjgp1112]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

Nigga what?

[sangofe]

That sounds like a them problem, not a Pokemon problem.

So what?
It's a problem that results in less people trying out manga.

Because Pokemon did not hurt readership. Furthermore, what few people said "all manga and anime are exactly like Pokemon!" is such a comically low number of people thinking an incredibly illogical thing that nothing would have gotten them into manga or anime in the first place, anyway.

How do you know that's the case in Norway? Why were most manga releases during that period canceled and why was no other anime than beyblade, Pokémon and some select Digimon seasons on TV? Why not Dragon Ball or more expanded anime?

[Kunzait_83]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

I know its against the forum's rules to just post image/gif only responses to things: but I have nothing else that I COULD conceivably post that better sums up the only sane, logical response to this.

[DBZAOTA482]

Sure, it didn't single handedly push anime into the mainstream (and I don't think anyone said it did?) but it was a symptom of anime's growing presence in the states. The main thing here is anime had gone mainstream well before DBZ did. All DBZ did was introduce its target audience to anime and (along with Sailor Moon) ensured Toonami would mostly focus on anime (but also because the guy running Toonami was an an anime fan himself and even took the extra time to make Tenchi Muyo suitable for Y7FV standards so it could be introduced to Toonami's audience because he was a fan of that series)

Except you haven't actually proven anime was mainstream at the time. It wasn't even mainstream when DBZ got big but it was steadily becoming so.

Like I said, the thing that made Toonami so special is that it appealed to a wide variety of different audiences while respecting the roots of anime. I even backed it up with facts and statistics that you conveniently ignore.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ng-ratings
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ps-ratings

The Simpsons got bodied by a show that was airing on Cable television.

https://www.reuters.com/article/chart-b ... 0120080606

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hw8EA ... AXoECAMQAw

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Q8EA ... hs&f=false

[ATA]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

Why...out of all people....you named OBL? Nigga you could've said a music artist or a comic book character. Not a freaking terrorist

[Hellspawn28]

The idea of anime was never a thing in America before DBZ and Pokemon is dumb. It's like saying that FPS games were never popular until Halo or no one was listing to nu metal before Linkin Park. I was watching anime from a younger age than most Millennials around my age group did (People born in the late 80s and early 90s). I remember watching anime such as Demon City Shinjuku, My Neighbor Totoro (The Fox Home Video release), Venus Wars, Dominion Tank Police, etc before I even saw any of the Dragon Ball shows or anyone I knew talked about anime. I do remember when anime was view as the cool and awesome type of cartoons to watch because people didn't want to watch dumb kids stuff on TV. Why watch G.I Joe when you can watch Area 88 instead? It was the biggest draw to Americans at the time.

I also do remember when Toonami was hated by anime fans because they edited their shows down. I was on AOL chat rooms back in the day and seeing so many people bitch about Outlaw Star getting edited. Not to mention, Funimation's dubs were flacked on too.

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

Osama Bin Laden was well-known, but would you call him "mainstream"?

Wait what? Did you seriously press the submit button when writing that?

I doubt the average joe is basing what movie they watch on what a movie critic says.

Roger Ebert was one of the biggest movie critics in America for decades. He had his own TV show that was popular with many people. I have fun memories of me watching Siskel & Ebert and the Movies around dinner time on TV. It won't surprise me if most people never knew about them until the Nostalgia Critic was a thing.

How many kids do you know used computers in the early 2000s?

Many of them did including myself. I had Internet at home and many kids in my school would go to the computer labs to look up shit.

Can you give an example of people buying media solely because of what a critic says? Good on trailers to use praise to hype up their products but if the product is good, it will sell itself.

Word of mouth is way people see or buy things in the first place. They hear it's good, people go out and watch it. Do you think a movie like The Matrix did so well out of nothing?

Ebert wrote an article in 99 about how anime was a huge growing market in the US with video shelves filled with anime. And no he wasn't talking about shit like Pokemon and Dragon Ball Z

This is true. 99% of the anime industry at the time was never aim towards to kids. Do you think these anime titles being released back in 1998-2000 were aim towards the kids that watched Toonami?

[jjgp1112]

Sure, it didn't single handedly push anime into the mainstream (and I don't think anyone said it did?) but it was a symptom of anime's growing presence in the states. The main thing here is anime had gone mainstream well before DBZ did. All DBZ did was introduce its target audience to anime and (along with Sailor Moon) ensured Toonami would mostly focus on anime (but also because the guy running Toonami was an an anime fan himself and even took the extra time to make Tenchi Muyo suitable for Y7FV standards so it could be introduced to Toonami's audience because he was a fan of that series)

Except you haven't actually proven anime was mainstream at the time. It wasn't even mainstream when DBZ got big but it was steadily becoming so.

Like I said, the thing that made Toonami so special is that it appealed to a wide variety of different audiences while respecting the roots of anime. I even backed it up with facts and statistics that you conveniently ignore.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ng-ratings
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ps-ratings

The Simpsons got bodied by a show that was airing on Cable television.

https://www.reuters.com/article/chart-b ... 0120080606

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hw8EA ... AXoECAMQAw

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Q8EA ... hs&f=false

You ignored the part of the ANN article where it was talking about a specific demographic...because the average Simpsons episode garnered 15 million viewers in 2002. Of course elementary and middle school kids are gonna be more interested in the action cartoon that's on at 5:30 on weekdays.

[Hellspawn28]

Dragon Ball may be one of the biggest anime & manga series globally, but I don't view as the biggest franchise from Japan. It still hasn't beaten out One Piece, Pokemon, and Godzilla yet.

(particularly Street Fighter and Tekken).

The first Street Fighter game came out in 1987 and began development when Dragon Ball was only a thought in Toriyama's brain. It's primary influence were the same things that influenced Dragon Ball to begin with.

True, the Hadoken was actually inspired by a beam attack in Space Battleship Yamato. It looking like the kamehameha is prue coincidental considering that they are both wuixa franchises. I do remember when people did view DBZ was a SF rip off for having similar attacks back in the day .

[DBZAOTA482]

Sure, it didn't single handedly push anime into the mainstream (and I don't think anyone said it did?) but it was a symptom of anime's growing presence in the states. The main thing here is anime had gone mainstream well before DBZ did. All DBZ did was introduce its target audience to anime and (along with Sailor Moon) ensured Toonami would mostly focus on anime (but also because the guy running Toonami was an an anime fan himself and even took the extra time to make Tenchi Muyo suitable for Y7FV standards so it could be introduced to Toonami's audience because he was a fan of that series)

Except you haven't actually proven anime was mainstream at the time. It wasn't even mainstream when DBZ got big but it was steadily becoming so.

Like I said, the thing that made Toonami so special is that it appealed to a wide variety of different audiences while respecting the roots of anime. I even backed it up with facts and statistics that you conveniently ignore.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ng-ratings
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ps-ratings

The Simpsons got bodied by a show that was airing on Cable television.

https://www.reuters.com/article/chart-b ... 0120080606

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hw8EA ... AXoECAMQAw

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Q8EA ... hs&f=false

You ignored the part of the ANN article where it was talking about a specific demographic...because the average Simpsons episode garnered 15 million viewers in 2002. Of course elementary and middle school kids are gonna be more interested in the action cartoon that's on at 5:30 on weekdays.

It mentions men 12-24. How many 24 year olds are in elementary or middle school?

Also, Dragon Ball made more on home video than The Simpsons.

[jjgp1112]

Except you haven't actually proven anime was mainstream at the time. It wasn't even mainstream when DBZ got big but it was steadily becoming so.

Like I said, the thing that made Toonami so special is that it appealed to a wide variety of different audiences while respecting the roots of anime. I even backed it up with facts and statistics that you conveniently ignore.

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ng-ratings
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ps-ratings

The Simpsons got bodied by a show that was airing on Cable television.

https://www.reuters.com/article/chart-b ... 0120080606

https://books.google.com/books?id=Hw8EA ... AXoECAMQAw

https://books.google.com/books?id=8Q8EA ... hs&f=false

You ignored the part of the ANN article where it was talking about a specific demographic...because the average Simpsons episode garnered 15 million viewers in 2002. Of course elementary and middle school kids are gonna be more interested in the action cartoon that's on at 5:30 on weekdays.

It mentions men 12-24. How many 24 year olds are in elementary or middle school?

Also, Dragon Ball made more on home video than The Simpsons.

How heavily do you think the 12-24 block is skewed by teenagers viewing habits?

And of course Dragon Ball would make more in home video when the episodes were released on there before they even aired on television. Dragon Ball depended on the home video market significantly more than The Simpsons.

Like no shit would the never before seen episodes of Dragon Ball perform more than decades old Simpson episodes that people saw a million times on syndication anyway.

Home video was an afterthought for TV until the mid 00s. It wasn't until the strength of Family Guy's DVD sales (which themselves were more a confirmation of the adult swim reruns' popularity anyway) helped resurrect it that major shows started taking it seriously.

[Zephyr]

Again, for the millionth time, this has never been the point.

Except it was.

No. Siskel and Ebert were well known household names. If they talked about something, chances are that thing's existence would be general public knowledge. Meaning, anime was in the mainstream public consciousness.

And this has all been a huge tangent anyway: nobody gonna bring up shit like Astro Boy and Speed Racer?

Anime went mainstream before DBZ came to the States is what everyone has been trying to tell you and you refuse to accept because it goes against the crown you placed on DBZ's head.

A better point might be that things like the Pokemon anime and stuff that aired on Toonami (including DBZ) imprinted on a ton of younger millennials, and as a result of their having reached adulthood and become adult consumers, anime is now more mainstream than it had been in the 90's. I don't think anyone would deny that we can talk about this in terms of "how mainstream something is" rather than within the confines of a binary "mainstream or not".

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2 ... ps-ratings

The Simpsons got bodied by a show that was airing on Cable television.

On closer inspection and reflection, this isn't as incredible as you'd think.

"posted on 2002-09-28"
"Beating out everything from Digimon to the Simpsons and other Prime Time broadcast shows, the season premiere of Dragonball Z was the most watched show on TV last week (week ending September 22nd) for its key demographics."

So, it's a common point of agreement that The Simpsons had a "golden age" in the 90's, after which its quality began to decline. When that moment exactly was will vary. I've seen everything from Season 7 to Season 14 argued, with 9 or 10 being the most common sticking points.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_T ... s_episodes

Looking at this, The Simpsons would have been well past its prime by late 2002, when DBZ had its season premiere. So, DBZ bodied a weakened Simpsons.

The 13th Season of The Simpsons ended on May 22, 2002. The 14th Season didn't begin airing until November 3, 2002. So, DBZ had a season premiere that bodied a weakened Simpsons which was between seasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_D ... Z_episodes

Looking at this, that DBZ 'season' was much of the latter Boo arc, beginning after Vegeta's sacrifice. These new DBZ episodes were the first ones after a major cliffhanger, the continuation of an ongoing arc.