The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Koitsukai]

Should be the same as Super Vegito. Back then that rival boost thing was in play, so I guess he is performing somewhat below Super Vegito. Still, enough to destroy Buuhan -maybe without much leeway or playing around- and Super Buu, as well.

The reason Gogeta is an equal trump card to Vegetto nowadays is because Vegeta is equal with Goku. In the Buu Saga, Goku was far stronger.

Vegetto getting a rivals boost means Gogeta gets one too.

Buu Saga Vegetto > Buu Saga Gogeta should still remain.

There was never any mention to the rival boost being a thing for metamoran fusion as well. Only when using the potara that concept was brought up.

Without that boost, there's no reason to think same arc fusions have any difference in power, they are made of the same people from the same moment in time. The duration of the fusion would be the main difference.

[FeatsofPower]

There was never any mention to the rival boost being a thing for metamoran fusion as well. Only when using the potara that concept was brought up.

100%. The rivals boost being added to Gogeta is done retroactively.

[Thani]

Should be the same as Super Vegito. Back then that rival boost thing was in play, so I guess he is performing somewhat below Super Vegito. Still, enough to destroy Buuhan -maybe without much leeway or playing around- and Super Buu, as well.

The reason Gogeta is an equal trump card to Vegetto nowadays is because Vegeta is equal with Goku. In the Buu Saga, Goku was far stronger.

Vegetto getting a rivals boost means Gogeta gets one too.

Buu Saga Vegetto > Buu Saga Gogeta should still remain.

There was never any mention to the rival boost being a thing for metamoran fusion as well. Only when using the potara that concept was brought up.

Without that boost, there's no reason to think same arc fusions have any difference in power, they are made of the same people from the same moment in time. The duration of the fusion would be the main difference.

The fusions mechanics themselves doesn't appear to be that different, despite Elder Kai claiming Potara to be superior to the Dance.

That said, it's like Feats said - the dance required both parties to fuse at the exact same size, wavelength and strength of ki. Wether the fused warrior resulting from the dance could still use all of the power of the fused beings, despite one of them having to lower themselves to fuse, is where the discussion really comes up.

Potara absolutely can, hence why people believe it's inherently stronger and only now, that Goku and Vegeta are equals, that both Gogeta and Vegito are considered equal trump cards in terms of power.

So, in the Buu saga, it really depends on this, IMO:

1. If Goku lowers his powers to fuse with Vegeta through the dance, and yet Gogeta can still use both of their full powers, than Gogeta = Vegito in raw power.

2. If Goku lowers his powers to fuse with Vegeta through the dance, but Gogeta is limited by only the power of Goku as an equal to Vegeta in order for the dance to work, than Vegito > Gogeta in raw power.

Both would be more or less enough to crush any form of Buu, but there ya go.

[Koitsukai]

The reason Gogeta is an equal trump card to Vegetto nowadays is because Vegeta is equal with Goku. In the Buu Saga, Goku was far stronger.

Vegetto getting a rivals boost means Gogeta gets one too.

Buu Saga Vegetto > Buu Saga Gogeta should still remain.

There was never any mention to the rival boost being a thing for metamoran fusion as well. Only when using the potara that concept was brought up.

Without that boost, there's no reason to think same arc fusions have any difference in power, they are made of the same people from the same moment in time. The duration of the fusion would be the main difference.

The fusions mechanics themselves doesn't appear to be that different, despite Elder Kai claiming Potara to be superior to the Dance.

That said, it's like Feats said - the dance required both parties to fuse at the exact same size, wavelength and strength of ki. Wether the fused warrior resulting from the dance could still use all of the power of the fused beings, despite one of them having to lower themselves to fuse, is where the discussion really comes up.

Potara absolutely can, hence why people believe it's inherently stronger and only now, that Goku and Vegeta are equals, that both Gogeta and Vegito are considered equal trump cards in terms of power.

So, in the Buu saga, it really depends on this, IMO:

1. If Goku lowers his powers to fuse with Vegeta through the dance, and yet Gogeta can still use both of their full powers, than Gogeta = Vegito in raw power.

2. If Goku lowers his powers to fuse with Vegeta through the dance, but Gogeta is limited by only the power of Goku as an equal to Vegeta in order for the dance to work, than Vegito > Gogeta in raw power.

Both would be more or less enough to crush any form of Buu, but there ya go.

I think that goes out the window once they no longer choose one fusion over the other.
I'm talking about the possibility that they cannot use or access the power the strongest fusee left out before doing the dance, resulting in a weaker fusion, which I don't think is an issue, or something that handicaps the fusion, I mean, in that case then they shouldn't be able to transform if they don't do the dance as SS.
So, I doubt the fusion suffers from matching the power of the fusees, seeing that said reserved power is still in there, somewhere, just like the SS forms are.

[ZombieVito]

Super Gogeta vs Super Buu

Same result as with Vegetto.

[FeatsofPower]

So, I doubt the fusion suffers from matching the power of the fusees, seeing that said reserved power is still in there, somewhere, just like the SS forms are.

This is the only way to make Vegetto > Gogeta and have Potara and Metamoran Fusion as equal trump cards. When fighters are of equal value, they are equal trump cards. Potara allows use of the stronger fighters power whereas Metamoran does not.

It seems logically that the power Trunks has to suppress will not be included. Of course they can still transform, that has nothing to do with the suppression.

[Kid Buu]

Jamie Lloyd (Halloween 5: The Revenge of Michael Myers) Vs. Mystic Gohan (Buu Saga)

One of them outrun a car, while the other one couldn't catch an earring.

[Galan007]

This is the only way to make Vegetto > Gogeta and have Potara and Metamoran Fusion as equal trump cards. When fighters are of equal value, they are equal trump cards. Potara allows use of the stronger fighters power whereas Metamoran does not.

It seems logically that the power Trunks has to suppress will not be included. Of course they can still transform, that has nothing to do with the suppression.

Fusion(be it Metamoran or Potara) isn't about drawing out the latent power of the fusees, or whathaveyou. It's about creating an entirely new/different lifeform that is orders of magnitude more powerful than the individual sum of its parts.

Moreover, fusions aren't strictly limited by the power that its individual components possess. That's why Gotenks was capable of reaching SS2/SS3, despite neither of the boys being able to achieve those forms individually. IOW, just because Metamoran fusion requires both characters to be equally powered prior to fusing, doesn't mean the fusion itself is incapable of reaching the full breadth of their respective abilities(and then some, obviously.)

Potara's "rival boost" trait was always odd to me, because we don't exactly know what it really did for Vegetto(ie. how much more powerful it made him than a theoretical Boo-era Gogeta.) Outside of Old Kaioshin's vague statement in the original source material, I think Potara's 'superiority'(in terms of power) has only been explicitly referenced like one time(via supplementary material) in the decades since... But iirc, even that entry was extremely vague regarding why Potara > Metamoran, but I digress. /shrug

Either way, it seems like nowadays both methods of fusion have been equalized, like you guys said.

[FeatsofPower]

IOW, just because Metamoran fusion requires both characters to be equally powered prior to fusing, doesn't mean the fusion itself is incapable of reaching the full breadth of their respective abilities(and then some, obviously.)

Why would power that has been suppressed be a factor? I don't see how that makes sense. This is the only way to make Potara more effective than Metamoran Fusion and keeping Gogeta and Vegetto as equal trump cards. How do you explain how Potara is more effective then?

Potara's "rival boost" trait was always odd to me, because we don't exactly know what it really did for Vegetto(ie. how much more powerful it made him than a theoretical Boo-era Gogeta.)

We don't have to. Gogeta and Vegetto being equal trump cards proves that Gogeta gets the same exact rivals boost himself. So have one less headache to worry about.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Base Goku end of Granolah vs Super Vegito during the Boo saga

Is there any chance of Goku beating them or would he have to turn super just to compete? Or would Vegito still get the upper hand either way?

I'm going to say Super Vegetto takes it, but maybe not Base Vegetto. Goku has improved a lot throughout Super, but it doesn't seem to be nearly as much as he did in the anime.

Super Gogeta vs Super Buu

Nowadays Gogeta is supposed to be as strong as Vegetto, so he should vaporize Boo pretty easily.

Goku seems to think a fusion equivalent using Super Saiyan would be able to defeat Buutenks and Elder Kaioshin didn't disagree. I'd say Super Gogeta takes this.

Isn't "Super Saiyan" an umbrella term for all three forms? They're all called Super Saiyan.

Also, it's not really equivalent. Gohan >>>>> Vegeta.

That said, it's like Feats said - the dance required both parties to fuse at the exact same size, wavelength and strength of ki. Wether the fused warrior resulting from the dance could still use all of the power of the fused beings, despite one of them having to lower themselves to fuse, is where the discussion really comes up.

I always found this part to be rather confusing. Goku said he couldn't fuse with anyone in the Afterlife because they were too weak, but this is the only time power and size were ever implied to be factors. In the same page he even says he wanted to fuse with Gohan or Vegeta... Goku is also much taller than Vegeta (I used to think Gogeta could never be canon because of this, lol). Toyotaro did say recently Goku and Vegeta are the same size, but this is probably just a mistake on his part since Goku was clearly taller in the Broly movie.

Spoiler:

[Goku9001]

Goku seems to think a fusion equivalent using Super Saiyan would be able to defeat Buutenks and Elder Kaioshin didn't disagree. I'd say Super Gogeta takes this.

Isn't "Super Saiyan" an umbrella term for all three forms? They're all called Super Saiyan.

Also, it's not really equivalent. Gohan >>>>> Vegeta.

Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan also seem to differentiate it from the original Super Saiyan form. It's just that Goku actually gave each form its own name. Elder Kaioshin does vaguely refer to it as Super Saiyan but when Goku takes Elder Kaioshin's advice, he immediately enters Super Saiyan once the fusion was successful.

That's fair if you think the fusion takes into account their full powers regardless if one of them was suppressed or not. It's hard to say because there's really not that much information given on fusion.

[Seekeroftruth]

Yeerk (Viser 3) inside Goku's brain vs Goku. Can the saiyan overcome being a yeerk slave or will he end up a controller?



The Yeerks are a parasitic species of slug-like creatures who require host bodies to see, walk and verbally communicate. They have made it their mission to search the galaxy and enslave other species. They are the main antagonists of the Animorphs series.

In their natural state, Yeerks resemble large slugs, and live in lakes of sludge known as Yeerk pools. Yeerks have the ability to enter another being's body through the ear canal and take over all brain functions, including basic motor and speech control, essentially "becoming" that person. Host infested by Yeerks are known as Controllers.

vs

[Galan007]

Why would power that has been suppressed be a factor? I don't see how that makes sense. This is the only way to make Potara more effective than Metamoran Fusion and keeping Gogeta and Vegetto as equal trump cards. How do you explain how Potara is more effective then?

Potara being more "effective" than Metamoran could have simply been due to the former not having a time-limit, while the latter did.

*I'm just referring to the fusions as they were originally depicted, btw. Obviously Potara does have a time-limit as of DBS(when used by mortals, at least.)

We don't have to. Gogeta and Vegetto being equal trump cards proves that Gogeta gets the same exact rivals boost himself. So have one less headache to worry about.

Yeah, that certainly seems to be the case nowadays(ie. Potara = Metamoran / Vegetto = Gogeta.)

But again, I was just speaking to how the fusion methods were originally described by Toriyama, decades ago... Potara's unique "rival boost" quality always seemed extremely vague/ambiguous to me. /shrug

[Seekeroftruth]

Keqing



vs

Imperfect cell

[Champa The Destroyer]

How powerful would DBS Broly from before he fought Vegeta and Goku (so before all the insane power boosts) be if he had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai?

He'd likely get an Ultimate form, could he unlock the Beast form?

How powerful would his base be? Or his Ultimate form be (maybe Beast form as well)?

Would he be on the level of, say, Black Frieza?

[Koitsukai]

How powerful would DBS Broly from before he fought Vegeta and Goku (so before all the insane power boosts) be if he had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai?

He'd likely get an Ultimate form, could he unlock the Beast form?

How powerful would his base be? Or his Ultimate form be (maybe Beast form as well)?

Would he be on the level of, say, Black Frieza?

The PU just goes to town and brings everything out. So he'd be as strong as Gogeta Blue, the gap between them should be gone. Ultimate Broly might have more power than the one he was able to use in the movie. And he should also be in control of that power.
Disclaimer: it could be possible that, at that moment, Broly did not have anything left and being Gogeta's bitch was his ceiling. It seemed like he hit a wall, and no matter how loud he roared, no matter how angry and frustated he got, he was not breaking any limits, I also doubt being out of control would have him still unable to unlock more power. The downsize of Broly is his poor self control, not much an unseen power. Original Broly kept taking breaks to let his immense power out, FWIW.

So, I'd say he'd be like Gogeta Blue. At worse, he'd be able to fight evenly with him -like actually even with him, not like that stupid quote from ancillary material- due to having control of his power, if he isn't as strong. LSS form should be some sort of PU, after all...

Beast form is still a mystery, some say it's unique to Gohan, in that case no. However, if it's the SS version of Ultimate or something along those lines, like others propose, then he should be able to do it.
In that case, considering Gohan's Ultimate was high SSB level and reached a level that seems to be top tier, like maybe enough to stand up to Black Freeza, and at least on par with the Ultra forms or close enough, Beast Broly, whose Ultimate form would be not a power level already shitty by the ToP, but a level that was surpassed in the Moro arc, then he'd be much stronger than Black Freeza and Beerus as well. Specially if he can control it.

Base form = I guess the same
Ultimate form = Gogeta Blue (movie)
Beast form = above every Hakaishin.

[Koitsukai]

1) Current Final Form Freeza faces:
- Moro arc Android 17 and 18
- SS Rose Goku Black (manga)
- Moro arc SSG Goku

2) Current Golden Freeza:
- FP SS Broly (movie)
- Gogeta Blue (movie)
- Moro73

3) Trunks and Goten (before the Buu arc, can use SS)
(Trunks says Goten has improved a lot in no time, so who how strong were there before their training with Gohan and Vegeta?)
- Namek Freeza.
- Android 19 and 20
- FT arc Base Goku (manga)

[Champa The Destroyer]

1) Current Final Form Freeza faces:
- Moro arc Android 17 and 18
- SS Rose Goku Black (manga)
- Moro arc SSG Goku

2) Current Golden Freeza:
- FP SS Broly (movie)
- Gogeta Blue (movie)
- Moro73

3) Trunks and Goten (before the Buu arc, can use SS)
(Trunks says Goten has improved a lot in no time, so who how strong were there before their training with Gohan and Vegeta?)
- Namek Freeza.
- Android 19 and 20
- FT arc Base Goku (manga)

1.

-I think Frieza wins? Android 17 is a wildcard considering this is after the tournament, but Frieza probably wins. But I could see 17 carrying for a win

-Goku Black was even or above SSB before they did the "switching between God and blue" technique, right? I think this would be a good battle but I give it to goku black, I know SSB in the granolah arc is way different than SSB from the FT arc, but i dont think Final Form Frieza is quite that high, maybe closer to SSG level. I just think golden and black are huge power boosts for frieza.

-I think Goku would win. Before the 10 years of training, his final form was pretty much equal to goku's base form. Obviously now his final form is WAY stronger than goku's base, but I dont think it would be quite on the level of his Moro arc God level. It would be close though

2.

-I'd give this to Golden Frieza. And unmastered golden form was a bigger boost than SSB (his FF was weaker than base goku in RoF, then became more powerful once they both transformed). His golden form became even stronger with mental training, and is probably much more mastered with 10 years of training. Plus Frieza is probably more skilled than Broly at this point, and has more durability, not to mention at the very least being similar in power.

-I don't think his golden form is on the level of a Blue Fusion, however. I view the power of fusions as much higher than most, and have Gogeta Blue in another league compared to Broly. Hell I'm not convinced that current goku or vegeta have reached DBS movie Gogeta's level yet, not to mention the skill gap between gogeta and frieza. So I think Gogeta wins decisively, not a stomp, but still.

-This is a really good fight. Moro 73 was above Moro arc UIOmen. However, the Granolah Arc UI forms are much stronger, and Black Frieza one shotted a form of UI that's two tiers above Omen. The main thing is, we don't know the gap between Golden form and Black form.

Current Golden Frieza is probably weaker than True UI, since he went straight to his stronger form. However, I doubt it's much weaker, considering how quickly and easily he beat him. I think the gap between Golden Frieza and current True UI is much smaller than current True UI and Moro 73, though. So I think Frieza wins most of the time

[ZombieVito]

1) Current Final Form Freeza faces:
- Moro arc Android 17 and 18
- SS Rose Goku Black (manga)
- Moro arc SSG Goku

2) Current Golden Freeza:
- FP SS Broly (movie)
- Gogeta Blue (movie)
- Moro73

3) Trunks and Goten (before the Buu arc, can use SS)
(Trunks says Goten has improved a lot in no time, so who how strong were there before their training with Gohan and Vegeta?)
- Namek Freeza.
- Android 19 and 20
- FT arc Base Goku (manga)

1) He loses all battles. His Final form was at Super Saiyan tier by the ToP and I seriously doubt his training would boost that up to SSB tier and above.
2) Same as above. I don't think his Golden form is dozens of times stronger than before.
3) They lose all battles in base but win the first 2 with Super Saiyan.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeerk (Viser 3) inside Goku's brain vs Goku. Can the saiyan overcome being a yeerk slave or will he end up a controller?



The Yeerks are a parasitic species of slug-like creatures who require host bodies to see, walk and verbally communicate. They have made it their mission to search the galaxy and enslave other species. They are the main antagonists of the Animorphs series.

In their natural state, Yeerks resemble large slugs, and live in lakes of sludge known as Yeerk pools. Yeerks have the ability to enter another being's body through the ear canal and take over all brain functions, including basic motor and speech control, essentially "becoming" that person. Host infested by Yeerks are known as Controllers.

vs

I don't think Goku can shake it off. Vegeta is the only person in the series to ever show any kind of resistance to mental control, most likely due to his pride. I wouldn't be surprised if Goku secretly had something up in his sleeve, but I doubt it.

1) Current Final Form Freeza faces:
- Moro arc Android 17 and 18
- SS Rose Goku Black (manga)
- Moro arc SSG Goku

2) Current Golden Freeza:
- FP SS Broly (movie)
- Gogeta Blue (movie)
- Moro73

3) Trunks and Goten (before the Buu arc, can use SS)
(Trunks says Goten has improved a lot in no time, so who how strong were there before their training with Gohan and Vegeta?)
- Namek Freeza.
- Android 19 and 20
- FT arc Base Goku (manga)

1 and 2) Oh that's a good one. I have no idea how strong Black form is supposed to be, let alone his lower forms. His power is even more vague than Super Vegetto's before Super was a thing. I guess he clears all of them? If Freeza left Goku and Vegeta alive then I don't think he's afraid of Gogeta coming after him. So his lower forms probably scale to Gogeta's lower forms, which means he obliterates the gang.

3) Goten replies to Trunks with a "my brother taught me a lot" so I guess Trunks was talking about martial arts? Goten was really close to Gohan in raw power already, and I doubt any of the adults improved so much. The boys can fight 50% Freeza in base a bit I guess, but they'll need SSJ to beat him and the androids. If this is start of FT Saga Goku then he's also gone, but end of FT Saga probably wins. ToP Base Goku is stronger than Kaioshin and he hasn't trained since the FT Saga. It would be like CG Goku vs the boys, a close fight which Goku wins via experience.