"Serious Goku" Comments on DB Youtube Clips

[super michael]

These stories are designed to be crowd pleasers. It's a good thing to be aware of what the audience is responding to, and in this case, it makes sense to give Vegeta more to do as he has more places to go. He's a very flexible character who was already on this sort of path prior to Super.

Vegeta's growth didn't require Goku to regress. The two aren't linked. It may seem that way, but Vegeta's growth isn't dependent on Goku regressing. Regression is typical in revivals.

In the manga of DBS they didn't make Goku stupid, they just made Vegeta gain better spirit control compared to Goku from his training.
That is the difference between DBS Anime and Manga, Goku has to be stupid, even if there are other character that can be stupid or dumb for good reason.

Broly was in the movie, he could have been clueless about meditation. He could have been clueless about calm, body and spirit being in harmony.

He does the same in Dragon Ball. In Super let's look at his opponents. Beerus is a destroyer sure, but he's also out to fight Goku because he wants a good fight. It's the sort of thing Goku loves. He's not some malicious force out to destroy for personal gain.
Freeza he's already defeated.
The tournaments were often jovial in nature.
He's serious against Zamasu and Black when the stakes get serious.
The tournament of power is a tournament. The stakes are high, but lets not forget that the same was true of the Tenkaichi Budokai.

Goku going to Zeno showed how he didn't care about anyone but himself, then we was acting like a villain to the other universe. Then Goku was doing and saying stupid things in the ToP.

Goku had got reason why he didn't want Kami to interferer with his battle with Piccolo, he didn't want to get disqualified. In the ToP there was no rules being broken at all.

[ABED]

villain to the other universe. Then Goku was doing and saying stupid things in the ToP.

Goku had got reason why he didn't want Kami to interferer with his battle with Piccolo, he didn't want to get disqualified.

The way you write things like "Goku doing and saying stupid things" comes off like you believe Goku didn't say or do stupid things before Super.

And Goku's reason for not wanting to be DQ'ed during the 23rd TB was for the same reason he wanted the Tournament of Power. He wanted to test himself. It was never about saving the world, it was about the championship.

Going to Zeno wasn't the reason for the tournament. It was gonna happen regardless. That isn't something Goku wouldn't have done in Dragon Ball / DBZ. He allowed Dr. Gero to complete the cyborgs even with advanced warning.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything more to add unless anyone has questions about anything I've written.

[super michael]

villain to the other universe. Then Goku was doing and saying stupid things in the ToP.

Goku had got reason why he didn't want Kami to interferer with his battle with Piccolo, he didn't want to get disqualified.

The way you write things like "Goku doing and saying stupid things" comes off like you believe Goku didn't say or do stupid things before Super.

And Goku's reason for not wanting to be DQ'ed during the 23rd TB was for the same reason he wanted the Tournament of Power. He wanted to test himself. It was never about saving the world, it was about the championship.

Going to Zeno wasn't the reason for the tournament. It was gonna happen regardless. That isn't something Goku wouldn't have done in Dragon Ball / DBZ. He allowed Dr. Gero to complete the cyborgs even with advanced warning.

Anyway, I don't think I have anything more to add unless anyone has questions about anything I've written.

Let make this clear Goku wanted to win the Martial Art Tournament in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, there is nothing wrong in that. Goku didn't want to get DQ at all.
Goku going to Zeno that was wrong, since he knew what Zeno was capable of doing. Goku accelerated the Universe being in danger.

Goku wasn't at fault for Dr Gero creating the Androids. He may have left Dr Gero to create alone to create the Androids, however by Goku own words Dr Gero hasn't done anything wrong at that present time.


Goku getting pissed of a C17 isn't the same as Goku getting pissed of at Kami. One would result in getting DQ and the other wouldn't. The girs acted like amateur, then they get what they deserve.

There was no reason for Goku to let his guard down so many times in the ToP, he left it so down that he couldn't react at all. He knew many universe were targeting him and Universe 7 for him provoking them.



In the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, Goku not know what marriage is or what a hug is that doesn't make Goku dumb. He was never taught those thing.

[WittyUsername]

I think Toriyama was being facetious when he said that. There's truth in that he doesn't pander to certain fan demands, but he does care about entertaining the audience. If he didn't he wouldn't have changed the story from a Journey to the West parody into something that would sell better.

Vegeta didn't win the second fight. The fight was called off to deal with Majin Buu and Vegeta hit Goku with a cheap shot from behind. That doesn't count.

It’s not like there are rules in a fight. The bottom line is that Goku never actually beat Vegeta, so it’s weird to me that people would treat that post-credits stinger as some awesome and cathartic moment.

[MasenkoHA]

Let make this clear Goku wanted to win the Martial Art Tournament in the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, there is nothing wrong in that. Goku didn't want to get DQ at all.

There's nothing wrong with that other than Goku's risking the fate of the world by refusing outside help just to prove he could win a tournament.

Goku going to Zeno that was wrong, since he knew what Zeno was capable of doing. Goku accelerated the Universe being in danger.

Zeno was just going to wipe out universes that had low moral rankings. Goku suggesting a tournament ended up being a good thing.

Goku wasn't at fault for Dr Gero creating the Androids. He may have left Dr Gero to create alone to create the Androids, however by Goku own words Dr Gero hasn't done anything wrong at that present time.

Which was of course a load of horseshit as Dr.Gero was part of the Red Ribbon army. It was just an excuse to fight the Androids.

In the 23rd Martial Art Tournament, Goku not know what marriage is or what a hug is that doesn't make Goku dumb. He was never taught those thing.

He doesn't know what a hug is?

[dva_raza]

Vegeta didn't win the second fight. The fight was called off to deal with Majin Buu and Vegeta hit Goku with a cheap shot from behind. That doesn't count.

Has Goku defeated Vegeta? No.

The idea behind Vegeta settling a score is nonsensical when it could literally be applied the opposite way, is what I was saying.

I want Goku to settle a score with Vegeta. How about it? I guess maybe if Goku fans start whining all over the internet and making fan edits of Super Hero as Getabros did of Resurrection F, it might happen.

I think Toriyama was being facetious when he said that. There's truth in that he doesn't pander to certain fan demands, but he does care about entertaining the audience. If he didn't he wouldn't have changed the story from a Journey to the West parody into something that would sell better.

Toriyama’s entire job’s objective is entertainment, obviously yeah, he wasn’t pandering to silly little whims like “lets have Vegeta get revenge” is how I take the whole “I like going against their wishes ha-ha” approach, and Resurrection F seemed to be an exact example of that. That was almost like he was trolling the whiny crowd.

But they just made it clear those days are behind. They are now taking seriously the whiny crowd.

So, starting with Super Hero, that’s check.
Vegeta got his very first win ever against Goku for the second time!
Next, is Vegeta getting his long-awaited and deserved Main Villain Defeat! which was already clearly set up with Vegeta’s latest scene in the manga.

[dva_raza]

Broly was in the movie, he could have been clueless about meditation. He could have been clueless about calm, body and spirit being in harmony.

This is what makes it worse. They literally had a new character there, who could’ve served perfectly both for integrating him (build a dynamic between the three) and also have an actual good scene. Which is honestly what I had imagined they were doing after seeing the trailer with them fighting. The scene could’ve written itself.

Yet they used him as a tree to go all in on Vegeta pandering.
Vegeta discovered, from his own observation on Jiren, the power of everything Whis had explained to him already, okay ...and Goku went from being the example of it, to having no clue what Vegeta’s doing, lol.

-
When you see the Gohan and Goku scene at the ROSAT, it clearly has a very different and more serious mood in comparison to SuperHero.
I guess maybe that's why some people don’t even notice the incoherency in Goku saying something like “no way is (this thing I did for days at the ROSAT and unlocked SS2 with) a form of training”?

But the thing is, silly tone or not, clearly they had to reaaaally dumb Goku down for Vegeta to say something of value.
And that’s just cheap writing, sorry. Literally nothing to defend about it.

Being a fan of something doesn’t mean you gotta actively cover for what was a BAD choice. You are contributing for more of this shit to keep coming by being ok with it.
Unless you genuinely understand and like this scene of course, which I’ve yet to see being articulated other than “blah Goku was just in a mood for something more active” or the whole “Goku dumb funz” thing...
Anyway, whatever.

[ABED]

I think Toriyama was being facetious when he said that. There's truth in that he doesn't pander to certain fan demands, but he does care about entertaining the audience. If he didn't he wouldn't have changed the story from a Journey to the West parody into something that would sell better.

Vegeta didn't win the second fight. The fight was called off to deal with Majin Buu and Vegeta hit Goku with a cheap shot from behind. That doesn't count.

It’s not like there are rules in a fight. The bottom line is that Goku never actually beat Vegeta, so it’s weird to me that people would treat that post-credits stinger as some awesome and cathartic moment.

Not defeating Goku wasn't Vegeta's beef with him.

[WittyUsername]

I think Toriyama was being facetious when he said that. There's truth in that he doesn't pander to certain fan demands, but he does care about entertaining the audience. If he didn't he wouldn't have changed the story from a Journey to the West parody into something that would sell better.

Vegeta didn't win the second fight. The fight was called off to deal with Majin Buu and Vegeta hit Goku with a cheap shot from behind. That doesn't count.

It’s not like there are rules in a fight. The bottom line is that Goku never actually beat Vegeta, so it’s weird to me that people would treat that post-credits stinger as some awesome and cathartic moment.

Not defeating Goku wasn't Vegeta's beef with him.

Vegeta’s beef was that he was an entitled brat who couldn’t stand the thought that a low-class Saiyan was better than him, which is what led to him briefly going back to being a villain in the Boo arc. I’m not sure why fans would feel the need for him to be rewarded for that.

[ABED]

Vegeta’s beef was that he was an entitled brat who couldn’t stand the thought that a low-class Saiyan was better than him, which is what led to him briefly going back to being a villain in the Boo arc. I’m not sure why fans would feel the need for him to be rewarded for that.

It's a post credit scene. It's not supposed to necessarily cathartic for the audience, but it would be for Vegeta using his own ability and power to finally conclusively defeat Goku.

Although there is a look from Goku that has me thinking he might have let him win.

[Zephyr]

Although there is a look from Goku that has me thinking he might have let him win.

Yeah, and with how disinterested Whis sounds when he announces the winner of the match, I'm inclined to think he's in on it too.

[WittyUsername]

Vegeta’s beef was that he was an entitled brat who couldn’t stand the thought that a low-class Saiyan was better than him, which is what led to him briefly going back to being a villain in the Boo arc. I’m not sure why fans would feel the need for him to be rewarded for that.

It's a post credit scene. It's not supposed to necessarily cathartic for the audience, but it would be for Vegeta using his own ability and power to finally conclusively defeat Goku.

Although there is a look from Goku that has me thinking he might have let him win.

If fans actually cheered during that scene, then that sure makes it sound like they were pandering to Vegeta fans, especially when taking the aforementioned meditation exchange into account.

[LoganForkHands73]

Sure, the writers generally try to overplay Vegeta's intelligence compared to Goku and use him as the straight-man foil, not just in Super Hero but in many stories before. And I'd happily rant about how poorly Goku was written in that movie. However, I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care. As ABED pointed out, Goku has a mischievous smirk that seems to say "alright bud, I'll give you this one since you clearly want it more than me".

[dva_raza]

I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care.

It is by no means that deep.

The scene is a fanservice. Meaning, Vegeta fans want Vegeta win. They wrote a scene to make it happen.

I don’t see what it being self-aware has to do with whether it's pandering.

[LoganForkHands73]

I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care.

It is by no means that deep.

The scene is a fanservice. Meaning, Vegeta fans want Vegeta win. They wrote a scene to make it happen.

I don’t see what it being self-aware has to do with whether it's pandering.

It’s a bit of fanservice, sure, but it’s also a joke at Vegeta’s expense. If he utterly wrecked Goku with Ultra Ego rather than scrape an anticlimactic win by the absolute skin of his teeth, it would be a more obvious example of pandering. I mean, does Vegeta really come off looking much better than Goku? He also falls down two seconds after Whis declares he’s the winner winner chicken dinner.

[ABED]

If anything, it feels almost insulting, like they might say "You really want Vegeta to get the win? Here, we'll throw you a stupid bone." Then they proceed to not show you the fight, have it as a throwaway joke in a post credit scene, and then still leave it ambiguous. At this point I'm hoping that's what that is and Goku does in fact know what meditation is, he was just having fun.

[Yuji]

Sure, the writers generally try to overplay Vegeta's intelligence compared to Goku and use him as the straight-man foil, not just in Super Hero but in many stories before. And I'd happily rant about how poorly Goku was written in that movie. However, I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care. As ABED pointed out, Goku has a mischievous smirk that seems to say "alright bud, I'll give you this one since you clearly want it more than me".

Yes, it is clearly a joke at the expense of the audience, which is why Broly and Lemo are crying as representations of the average fan. It was a hand-to-hand fight with no Ki blasts or transformations that Vegeta won by being slightly more durable. It's hardly a an impressive victory.

[Koitsukai]

Definitely a meaningless victory due to so many restrictions. The result in PL would be: base Goku 1,000000/ base Vegeta 1,000001. Hardly what a fan would expect to be satisfied, and not even part of the pre-credits movie. They are literally even, well Geets is one really thin hair ahead.

[LoganForkHands73]

Sure, the writers generally try to overplay Vegeta's intelligence compared to Goku and use him as the straight-man foil, not just in Super Hero but in many stories before. And I'd happily rant about how poorly Goku was written in that movie. However, I don't think the post-credit scene is an example of Vegetabro pandering, it's more about mocking how utterly played out the Goku/Vegeta rivalry has become. Vegeta fans can share his catharsis at finally getting a win, but the joke is that it's a pathetic, meaningless victory from attrition. Beerus, Whis and Cheelai don't even care. As ABED pointed out, Goku has a mischievous smirk that seems to say "alright bud, I'll give you this one since you clearly want it more than me".

Yes, it is clearly a joke at the expense of the audience, which is why Broly and Lemo are crying as representations of the average fan. It was a hand-to-hand fight with no Ki blasts or transformations that Vegeta won by being slightly more durable. It's hardly a an impressive victory.

Exactly. Broly and Lemo will be making Linkin Park AMVs of this legendary battle for decades to come

The Goku/Vegeta rivalry is such a lowest-common-denominator thing that even casuals recognise about the franchise, that's probably the main source of the "hype" reactions to the scene. Super Hero basically runs on fanservice so I think the post-credit scene is nothing more than a funny riff on the film's very nature (and possibly to parody anticlimactic post-credit scene trend popularised by Marvel movies).

At this point I'm hoping that's what that is and Goku does in fact know what meditation is, he was just having fun.

Like many of the "stupid Goku" moments throughout Super, there's enough wiggle room to theoretically explain Goku's behaviour, but unfortunately, the full context of the scene really doesn't put Goku over at all. He acts clueless as Vegeta explains some very basic concepts, then Whis reinforces it by saying that "it hasn't clicked for Goku yet" (ignoring that Whis has always been more ready to praise Goku's even-handed approach to training). I'm also of the opinion that it would've made much more sense for Broly to ask the easy questions in this scene as that would've actually given him a purpose for being there. He's treated as more of an accessory to Cheelai and Lemo than the other way around! In the sparring scene itself, Goku puts on a decent display as always but the storyboarders still play up the rookie angle by making him randomly stumble over his own footing twice. I don't entirely agree with dva_raza that the whole thing is some kind of intentional conspiracy to make Goku look worse than Vegeta but I agree with his general frustrations about the writing quality.

[ABED]

Super Hero basically runs on fanservice so I think the post-credit scene is nothing more than a funny riff on the film's very nature

Other than Cell Max, the film feels like it's poking fun at fanservice.