The people who grew up with Censored and or modified Dragon Ball

[GhostEmperorX]

I've never been able to empathise with the idea that DB gaining mainstream popularity in the US was somehow a bad thing.

Countless fans have spoken out about how watching DB changed their lives for the better. There's been no end of stories about people turning their lives around after being inspired by the show. Everything from people starting to exercise more to people getting off drugs/alcohol because they happened to watch DB/Z on Toonami.

The idea that none of that matters and DB should have stayed niche just because doesn't sit right with me. Most of us wouldn't be on this forum if that's how things had gone.

Yes, another user I wanted to see again. Hopefully you have time for certain other discussions outside of this thread.

I mean, for any situation or scenario in life, there's no 100% positive or negative set of results (glass half-full, glass half-empty). It can be viewed as people out there making the best of what's a less than ideal situation (just like channels that re-arrange/remix/cover the most popular replacement score in ways that even surpass it).
But this is something where, even if it wasn't DB/Z, it could very well have been something else that took its place. It can also be true of later generations when Dragon Ball in general is no longer a thing.

All that is separate from what exactly the point is, however. That line has to be drawn somewhere. Even if it's true that a forum like this may possibly not even have existed at all. No one knows so it will always be a what-if situation. We do know for sure however what wouldn't be a thing.

EDIT:

I personally don't see why the show being a relatively obscure cult phenomenon is such a great thing, aside from some flight of fancy that it would erase the "undesirable" elements of the fandom and it would only be enjoyed by us rational, card-carrying, Kanzenshuu-scrolling adults.

I don't think this is the issue though. It simply means that it wouldn't have any of the warped baggage from the Western licensee side of things in general (and this includes garbage releases from Funimation, those would likely be the biggest undesirable elements to disappear).

[dragonmagico]

I don't see how a dub as faithful or more than the budokai games etc would have stopped db dbz dbgt from being a hit on toonami. Sure they may have had to edit out Goku's gentialia and some of the more bad roshi stuff but the core action adventure goofy fun of the show would still be there. It's not like other good dubs didn't do well on toonami, so why would the db series be any different? It may have formed a slightly different fan base but it's a kids cartoon it still would have been a fun action adventure to look forward to for us kids after school. It's succeeded in spite of funi not because of it imo.

[GhostEmperorX]

It's succeeded in spite of funi not because of it imo.

Of course, and that's what makes their version of it invalid on a fundamental level. Makes no sense at all to have that be the one to watch if you want to understand the series or have any proper perspective on it. No consistency, no production order, nothing.

[Majin Buu]

Of course, and that's what makes their version of it invalid on a fundamental level. Makes no sense at all to have that be the one to watch if you want to understand the series or have any proper perspective on it. No consistency, no production order, nothing.

This.

It's fine to like Funimation's Dragon Ball Z, but it's not Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z. You can't have a discussion about the series' writing, characters, themes, tonal shifts, genre origins, etc. when the version you're watching is the one that had the dubbing company heavily insert their own vision into it- a vision that often clashes with the original version.

I've never been able to empathise with the idea that DB gaining mainstream popularity in the US was somehow a bad thing.

I'd rather it have gone mainstream with a more faithful dub.

There's been no end of stories about people turning their lives around after being inspired by the show. Everything from people starting to exercise more to people getting off drugs/alcohol because they happened to watch DB/Z on Toonami.

The idea that none of that matters and DB should have stayed niche just because doesn't sit right with me. Most of us wouldn't be on this forum if that's how things had gone.

It's good that those people found inspiration from this series, but for me, my experience as a fan has been defined just as much by toxicity as by positivity, and dub vs. sub debates are a large part of why. I'd personally rather have a world where a more faithful dub was released that didn't take the series mainstream, but made the dub vs. sub aspect of the Western fandom less hostile and more in line with where it is with most anime series that have good dubs; where the differences mostly just amount to which voice cast you prefer and you don't have to also take into account dialogue and characterization changes, replacement scores, censorship, etc. The schisms that exist in the fandom today wouldn't be as pronounced (I know things are better today on that front, but it took a lot of time and growing pains to get to this point and I don't think it needed to be like that).

Frankly, I think a more faithful dub would have been better for the Western fanbase in the long run than the series becoming mainstream; though I think it was possible for both to happen- Funimation just didn't believe that the show could succeed in its original form, which tells me that they never truly believed it could succeed on its own merits.

[GhostEmperorX]

This.

It's fine to like Funimation's Dragon Ball Z, but it's not Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z. You can't have a discussion about the series' writing, characters, themes, tonal shifts, genre origins, etc. when the version you're watching is the one that had the dubbing company heavily insert their own vision into it- a vision that often clashes with the original version.

And the few bits and instances of accuracy interspersed within it only serve to compound the contradictions.
It's even worse than if it were an adaptation that changed tons of things like names and such, because then it would be much easier to discard it as the impostor that it is (Harmony Gold), but the disguise is a lot more convincing here.

I'd personally rather have a world where a more faithful dub was released that didn't take the series mainstream, but made the dub vs. sub aspect of the Western fandom less hostile and more in line with where it is with most anime series that have good dubs; where the differences mostly just amount to which voice cast you prefer and you don't have to also take into account dialogue and characterization changes, replacement scores, censorship, etc.

Yes, and it's ridiculous how a lot of things that are supposed to be standard issue for anime of its period (of which I have now seen a lot and are getting excellent releases/restorations outside of Toei IP's) are somehow not even the case, even stuff like the aspect ratio of all things from the bad home video releases. All that nonsense would be avoided if not for the wrong company illegitimately getting the license and endlessly mutilating it to ride whatever trend wave came its way.
(I also have my gripes with Toei and others on the JP side about this but that's another topic really.)
And true, even the longer Shueisha IP anime series that came after DBZ (e.g. everyone's favourite clone series, Naruto) get dubs that are accurate, but the same people who will pan the sub version of DBZ will only watch those in sub. Then they hold up invalid alternate versions as "good dubs".

The schisms that exist in the fandom today wouldn't be as pronounced (I know things are better today on that front, but it took a lot of time and growing pains to get to this point and I don't think it needed to be like that).

Honestly speaking, the state that it's in is still absolutely shameful and deplorable, especially considering that it's been 2+ decades (a certain new video uploaded 3 days ago only to be flooded with predictable cesspool comments shows this). Those are the kind of people that get what they deserve whenever Funi or Toei put out bad releases of the show. The fans of the dub in particular that claim to be "mistreated" and "insulted" by "elitist" sub fans, yet are themselves totally narrow-minded and don't want to have any kind of communication/conversation/discussion/dialogue even if you concede one or more of their points and legitimate concerns.

To be clear, I have zero problems with reasonable and respectable people who like it or aspects of it and know what it is they're talking about, and don't subscribe to misinformation or propaganda. But such people are sometimes few and far in between, although they can be found on forums like this one.

[Majin Buu]

And the few bits and instances of accuracy interspersed within it only serve to compound the contradictions.
It's even worse than if it were an adaptation that changed tons of things like names and such, because then it would be much easier to discard it as the impostor that it is (Harmony Gold), but the disguise is a lot more convincing here.

This calls to mind the scene with that hilariously inaccurate reenactment of the battle with Cell at the tournament that opens the Buu arc. The dub version of that scene is actually good because Funi's practice of punching up the dialogue to the point of cringe (which usually renders the dialogue too corny to take seriously) actually fits with how ridiculously cringe the reenactment is supposed to be.

Yes, and it's ridiculous how a lot of things that are supposed to be standard issue for anime of its period (of which I have now seen a lot and are getting excellent releases/restorations outside of Toei IP's) are somehow not even the case, even stuff like the aspect ratio of all things from the bad home video releases. All that nonsense would be avoided if not for the wrong company illegitimately getting the license and endlessly mutilating it to ride whatever trend wave came its way.
(I also have my gripes with Toei and others on the JP side about this but that's another topic really.)
And true, even the longer Shueisha IP anime series that came after DBZ (e.g. everyone's favourite clone series, Naruto) get dubs that are accurate, but the same people who will pan the sub version of DBZ will only watch those in sub. Then they hold up invalid alternate versions as "good dubs".

Agreed. The fact that Funimation got DBZ because of nepotism over an established dubbing company like Pioneer is a crime.

Honestly speaking, the state that it's in is still absolutely shameful and deplorable, especially considering that it's been 2+ decades (a certain new video uploaded 3 days ago only to be flooded with predictable cesspool comments shows this). Those are the kind of people that get what they deserve whenever Funi or Toei put out bad releases of the show. The fans of the dub in particular that claim to be "mistreated" and "insulted" by "elitist" sub fans, yet are themselves totally narrow-minded and don't want to have any kind of communication/conversation/discussion/dialogue even if you concede one or more of their points and legitimate concerns.

Today there's more Western fans that are at least respectful of the Japanese version if they don't like it; but yeah, those "Granny Goku" and "Goofy Trumpet Music" types still exist and are still pretty easy to find.

[GhostEmperorX]

Agreed. The fact that Funimation got DBZ because of nepotism over an established dubbing company like Pioneer is a crime.

And the fact that neither Toriyama nor Toei disavowed it like Kawamori or CLAMP did for their works when they heard that they were desecrated in NA is also unacceptable.

Today there's more Western fans that are at least respectful of the Japanese version if they don't like it; but yeah, those "Granny Goku" and "Goofy Trumpet Music" types still exist and are still pretty easy to find.

In the best turn of events, they'll also accept that the version they like is fundamentally an invalid version (and there's even those out there who disassociate it from everything else), but for all those people who say they would never have watched the show without all the changes, they are absolutely inconsistent. If you should ask them "What criteria justifies/necessitates changing stuff in X anime but not in Y/Z/etc anime?", any "logic" they have or excuses they make will fall apart completely.
If they really don't like it, they should just move on to some other series. Simple as that. And nothing would be lost.
(BTW, an easy retort to those types is that their dub score sounds like shovelware game soundtracks, but we all know what the reason for that is.)

[Majin Buu]

And the fact that neither Toriyama nor Toei disavowed it like Kawamori or CLAMP did for their works when they heard that they were desecrated in NA is also unacceptable.

Imagine if either of them came out and disavowed Funi's Z dub like that. The earthquake that would send throughout the Western fanbase would be immense.

In the best turn of events, they'll also accept that the version they like is fundamentally an invalid version (and there's even those out there who disassociate it from everything else)

And honestly, that's all I want from Funimation dub fans. You prefer that version? Fine, that's your preference, but at least acknowledge that it's a heavily altered version that is often not faithful to how the show was meant to be seen by the people who actually created it- Funimation didn't create this show.

(BTW, an easy retort to those types is that their dub score sounds like shovelware game soundtracks, but we all know what the reason for that is.)

Agreed, the Falconer replacement score would work better as video game music, C-tier video game music at best.

[GhostEmperorX]

Imagine if either of them came out and disavowed Funi's Z dub like that. The earthquake that would send throughout the Western fanbase would be immense.

For starters lots of people would practically be filtered and admit they were never fans of Toriyama's work to begin with.

And honestly, that's all I want from Funimation dub fans. You prefer that version? Fine, that's your preference, but at least acknowledge that it's a heavily altered version that is often not faithful to how the show was meant to be seen by the people who actually created it- Funimation didn't create this show.

If they can't justify these changes for any other anime series that doesn't have them, they can't justify them for DB/Z. Which means that they should stop their petulant complaining about the fact that there's no more US replacement scores, or that the people who initially did so aren't ever coming back (I've even seen a comment somewhere saying "The purists are in control of the franchise" which is like the definition of petulant). Why people somehow still want them back instead of just moving on is beyond me (especially when they've really not done anything of note after the DuBZ score).

Agreed, the Falconer replacement score would work better as video game music, C-tier video game music at best.

The Boo saga for example has such obvious types of RPG-like music that you can just tell it was inspired by the mention of Babidi being a wizard.

[nineko]

The Italian version was so butchered, especially the earlier episodes. They later tried to correct the course when it came to Z, but most of the damage had already been done. I still loved it, and there really weren't many other options two decades ago, but I make sure to watch everything in Japanese nowadays, just like I watch movies and tv shows in English now that I have the chance to do so, I refuse to watch an Italian dub of anything at all anymore.

[Majin Buu]

If they can't justify these changes for any other anime series that doesn't have them, they can't justify them for DB/Z. Which means that they should stop their petulant complaining about the fact that there's no more US replacement scores, or that the people who initially did so aren't ever coming back (I've even seen a comment somewhere saying "The purists are in control of the franchise" which is like the definition of petulant).

That's rich. "It's so awful that Dragon ball is being dubbed more faithfully to the source material now. Damn purists."

Perhaps they should be mad at Funimation for giving them the wrong impression of what this franchise is with their heavily altered Z dub.

Why people somehow still want them back instead of just moving on is beyond me (especially when they've really not done anything of note after the DuBZ score).

Those types simply don't want a faithful dub, because the version they fell in love with wasn't a faithful dub. They want "Funimation's Dragon Ball Z" complete with edgy-sounding synth rock, not "Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z" with its orchestrated score the evokes the series' quirky nature and genre origins.

Thing is, Funimation couldn't become a respectable dubbing company if they had continued those bad practices- and even then, some of those bad practices still rear their ugly heads from time to time (*cough* inserting DBZ Abridged-style humor into the Super dub *cough*).

Even though they know how to make good dubs now, for some reason Funimation still can't resist the urge to insert their own creative flourishes into their Dragon Ball dubs at the expense of faithfulness to the source material. I've said it before, but it comes off like they just think they know better than the people that actually made the show.

[GhostEmperorX]

That's rich. "It's so awful that Dragon ball is being dubbed more faithfully to the source material now. Damn purists."

Perhaps they should be mad at Funimation for giving them the wrong impression of what this franchise is with their heavily altered Z dub.

Got that right, however this I think is the best comment bar none from that particular section:

Spoiler:

Absolutely. They've got their anger totally misplaced. Presenting the original as is, unlike distorting and misrepresenting it, is far from being the wrong thing to do. They extol "variety" (when that was never really the intention and is in fact a sign of colossal incompetence as well as being all-round chaos & confusion) and yet fail to accept a way of doing things that differs from their own preferences.

Those types simply don't want a faithful dub, because the version they fell in love with wasn't a faithful dub. They want "Funimation's Dragon Ball Z" complete with edgy-sounding synth rock, not "Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z" with its orchestrated score the evokes the series' quirky nature and genre origins.

Thing is, Funimation couldn't become a respectable dubbing company if they had continued those bad practices- and even then, some of those bad practices still rear their ugly heads from time to time (*cough* inserting DBZ Abridged-style humor into the Super dub *cough*).

Even though they know how to make good dubs now, for some reason Funimation still can't resist the urge to insert their own creative flourishes into their Dragon Ball dubs at the expense of faithfulness to the source material. I've said it before, but it comes off like they just think they know better than the people that actually made the show.

In fact, I recall that so many of them hated Kai for actually being a proper attempt to represent what they were dubbing.
And even then, Funimation really hasn't been consistent at all, aside many other issues. They have little to no respect for the IP that built them up even with all they did to it.
Typical middle man ego. Way too many instances of it to even count at this point.

(I do want to admit though that when I first came on here 3 years back, I was still effectively one of them with that mindset even while I said I wasn't a fan of replacement scores anymore, because a lot of the stuff I said was also "Source: Made it up"-levels of absurd, and I 100% realize that I was a fool who lacked proper perspective back then. Still feel sorry for the people on here who had to read what I wrote at that time, because any conversations about "What if X composer that's not Kikuchi did DB/Z" and stuff along that line is completely a result of Funimation's amateur treatment of the show, and a conversation we just wouldn't be having otherwise.)

[Cure Dragon 255]

If they can't justify these changes for any other anime series that doesn't have them, they can't justify them for DB/Z. Which means that they should stop their petulant complaining about the fact that there's no more US replacement scores, or that the people who initially did so aren't ever coming back (I've even seen a comment somewhere saying "The purists are in control of the franchise" which is like the definition of petulant).

That's rich. "It's so awful that Dragon ball is being dubbed more faithfully to the source material now. Damn purists."

Perhaps they should be mad at Funimation for giving them the wrong impression of what this franchise is with their heavily altered Z dub.

Why people somehow still want them back instead of just moving on is beyond me (especially when they've really not done anything of note after the DuBZ score).

Those types simply don't want a faithful dub, because the version they fell in love with wasn't a faithful dub. They want "Funimation's Dragon Ball Z" complete with edgy-sounding synth rock, not "Toei Animation's Dragon Ball Z" with its orchestrated score the evokes the series' quirky nature and genre origins.

Thing is, Funimation couldn't become a respectable dubbing company if they had continued those bad practices- and even then, some of those bad practices still rear their ugly heads from time to time (*cough* inserting DBZ Abridged-style humor into the Super dub *cough*).

Even though they know how to make good dubs now, for some reason Funimation still can't resist the urge to insert their own creative flourishes into their Dragon Ball dubs at the expense of faithfulness to the source material. I've said it before, but it comes off like they just think they know better than the people that actually made the show.

I really cannot believe I am doing this but I wouldnt call Abridged the style of humor the dub goes for. Abridged is made by fans who actually do love and understand the real Dragon Ball but wanted to poke fun at the terrible edits and dialogue present in the Funimation dub. I would compare Funimation dub humor to 4kids dub humor.

I cant believe I actually defended DBZA. I really dont like it I dont know why I did it.

[Zephyr]

Abridged is made by fans who actually do love and understand the real Dragon Ball

Actually, out of the main three people behind it, only one of them is a fan of the original Japanese version; the other two are strictly dub fans, to my knowledge.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I knew if I ever tried to give them even a little credit they would show me it would be unwarranted and I would look like a moron... more than I usually do at least. Oh well, back to loathing them it is.

[BlueChi]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

This is a great post. I really agree with it.

[Majin Buu]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

Had a feeling someone would eventually come in with the old "elitist" complaint.

No one said dub fans are any less fans. They just love a version of the show that's heavily altered from it's original form and as such, often isn't in line with the way it was meant to be seen by the people who actually created it. There is nothing "elitist" about acknowledging that. That's simply stating a fact.

Nor is it "elitist" to say that you can't use the dub if you want to analyze this story and how it works since the dub often isn't faithful to the source material. Prioritizing the source material and pointing out that the dub isn't very faithful a lot of the time it isn't "elitist" either.

I will disagree with any dub fan that acts like its a bad thing for the franchise to be dubbed more faithfully. That's also not "elitist".

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

Then don't use hyperbolic labels like "purist" to describe sub fans.

I've only ever seen dub fans use that term for sub fans and it always feels like a dismissive insult, like it's unreasonable to expect the dub to be faithful to the source material.

Some things have to be changed in localization because some things just don't translate, I acknowledge and accept that. To me, an actual "purist" wouldn't be willing to make those concessions.

What I've always taken issue with Funimation's dub is the changes that were not necessary to make. It wasn't necessary to add in that Freeza made Vegeta evil. It wasn't necessary to change Vegeta's reason for reaching Super Saiyan to "he stopped caring". It wasn't necessary to replace the score (And Fukunaga admitted they did that just because they wanted to make money off of their own score through royalties). It wasn't necessary to remove quiet moments by adding in dialogue whenever they could and having the replacement score constantly playing. Etc.

These changes go beyond "necessary concessions for stuff that doesn't translate" and outright alter core elements of the show. I think it's off-base to call me a "purist" for taking issue with that.

[VegettoEX]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

Had a feeling someone would eventually come in with the old "elitist" complaint.

Even as someone who largely agrees with that conversation going on, it's pretty true: it was the same two members going back and forth congratulating each other and patting each other on the back about how correct their viewpoints were. Not particularly exciting or engaging to read, and not how you convince or sway anyone to your side.

[MasenkoHA]

I think this discussion took an unnecessary turn towards elitism...
Clock my nationality, I was practically beaten into seeking out the OG out of necessity, and thank god for that, but people who grew up with the dub and still love it aren't any less of a DB fan than someone who only watches it in japanese.

As long as neither side disrespects the other, everything is just fine.
That goes for japanese purists, too.

Is it really elitism to point out they're different things?

Most Funi Dragon Ball fans do appreciate a different version of the show than what was created by Toei. They associate DBZ with Team Mike Smith and Friends synth technorock score instead of Shunsuke Kikuchi's orchestral 70s chop socky throw back score. Goku as the Hope of the Universe instead of the pure hearted Saiyan warrior raised on earth. A heavy franchise wide emphasis on power levels instead of battle powers only being relevant for two story arcs.

Fundamentally they're the same story but it's like how Stephen King's novel The Shining and Stanley Kubrick's film The Shining are the same story. Different approach to characterization, different approach to style and atmosphere. When I say I'm a fan of The Shining I do mean Kubrick's version, I don't think that means I'm a fake Shining fan just because I prefer Kubrick's changes and don't care much for the book. And I don't think Funi DBZ fans are fake DBZ fans just because they like Funimation's rescoring and revised characterization. They just like a different DBZ than Toei DBZ