Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[LightBing]

My definition of comparable is based on how battles went in Dragon Ball when we had numbers confirmation and other battles when the differences were made clear.
I have a in-depth analysis in a notepad somewhere and buried in this thread somewhere as well, if you'd like to delve into it. I can look for it and post it.

Regarding Raditz.
Here's the line taken from Herms translation.
Chapter: 215 (DBZ 21), P1.3
Context: after Tenshinhan beats a Saibaiman
Nappa: “"I'm-impossible...!! The Saibaiman's battle power is 1,200...!! Going just by power, he rivals Raditz...!!"
Vegeta: “So [Tenshinhan]'s battle power surpasses that. A simple calculation.”

Nappa says by power, could be a bit lower or higher but it has to be in the range. 1600 to me is far above the range, it's 25% more. Such a difference is too big for someone to rival. 25% is enough to completely dominate, disregarding experience, techniques and all that jazz.

I think Raditz would win against a single Saibaimen, since he's a better warrior(it's implied when Toriyama writes "by power rivals"). Add a single more and he would be like our friend Yamcha.

I talked about the hype of new threats because that's something Toriyama constantly does. He's incredibly consistent with how he sets up battles and with his power-scaling.

For example Nappa's 4000 number goes against one of the core Toriyama power-scaling writing methods. The half line to make people shit their pants. He's done it before and after power levels, it's how he imagines fighting in Dragon Ball.

If Nappa really was 4000 therefore half of Goku's 8000, Vegeta would have said get out! You're dead! Instead he eggs him on and says he has a chance if he fights proper. Which we are shown, he puts up a decent fight.

[ZombieVito]

That number is contradictory with the manga...
If you make Raditz this strong then he isn't comparable to Saibaimen, which is the whole point of the number! To give perspective of the new villains and hype up them up as threats.

It's why I ignore "official" numbers like those, clearly whoever made this is a random person.
I really doubt Toriyama felt the urge to correct this random digit, with absolutely null consequences; unless you're a Raditz fan.

How is the number contradictory to the manga if it never gave a number to him?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think rival can be a very loose term. The fight might be one sided, but they're close enough to get lumped together, specially from the perspective of someone many times stronger like Nappa.

That said, I'll take 1500 over 1600. It's the more known number.

Some power levels for the time Freeza came to Earth and Trunks appears. Be free to show any disagreement with the placements and ask for anything. I'll try to answer as deeply as I can, since those levels I came up with came from reading the story over and over and witnessing many debates and different viewpoints. I'm all for discussing the power placements and even power gaps, if someone wants to venture into that. I'd like comments though so I can feel the motivation to post the power levels little by little, you can be as picky and harsh critiquing as you want, I don't care.


Trunks' showdown


Yamcha : 90,000
Tenshinhan : 120,000
Kuririn : 200,000

Son Gohan : 800,000

Piccolo : 2,700,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000

King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 75,000,000
--- Hypothetical full power : 155,000,000

Future Trunks : 4,000,000
--- SSJ : 200,000,000

Son Goku : 4,400,000
--- SSJ : 220,000,000


SSJ Future Gohan (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Future Android 17 (full power) : 360,000,000
Future Android 18 : 330,000,000


Alright, to have something else to discuss, will include the initial levels of the next saga too.


Yamcha : 2,200,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000
Son Gohan : 5,300,000

[One thing I don't like is the earthlings getting bigger proportional gains than Gohan in spite of Gohan having trained with Piccolo and Goku... But eh, can't be helped as I like to picture the earthlings at least in the low millions here. Maybe they managed to squeeze out every ounce of potential they had for gains and maxed out, while Gohan was in the imminence of getting a huge boost with further training. And I don't like to have Gohan above that since I like to have his base level weaker than future Trunks from this time still... As Gohan is still definitely considerably weaker than Goku under same forms]

Android 19 : 158,000,000
--- post KMHMH absorption : 198,000,000
--- post weakened base Goku : 200,000,000

Android 20 : 182,000,000
--- post Vegeta's blast : 200,000,000
--- post suppressed Piccolo : 220,000,000

Piccolo : 260,000,000

Future Trunks : 6,000,000
--- SSJ : 300,000,000

Son Goku : 6,600,000
--- SSJ : 330,000,000

Vegeta : 6,800,000
--- SSJ : 340,000,000

Android 18 : 450,000,000
Android 17 : 500,000,000

I don't think 20 has to be > 19. Piccolo's line about "Were you weaker than we thought, or are we too strong?" refers to both Androids. 20 absorbed way less Ki than 19.

Where do you have Sick Goku? 240?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think rival can be a very loose term. The fight might be one sided, but they're close enough to get lumped together, specially from the perspective of someone many times stronger like Nappa.

That said, I'll take 1500 over 1600. It's the more known number.

Some power levels for the time Freeza came to Earth and Trunks appears. Be free to show any disagreement with the placements and ask for anything. I'll try to answer as deeply as I can, since those levels I came up with came from reading the story over and over and witnessing many debates and different viewpoints. I'm all for discussing the power placements and even power gaps, if someone wants to venture into that. I'd like comments though so I can feel the motivation to post the power levels little by little, you can be as picky and harsh critiquing as you want, I don't care.


Trunks' showdown


Yamcha : 90,000
Tenshinhan : 120,000
Kuririn : 200,000

Son Gohan : 800,000

Piccolo : 2,700,000
Vegeta : 3,000,000

King Cold : 90,000,000
Mecha Freeza (suppressed) : 75,000,000
--- Hypothetical full power : 155,000,000

Future Trunks : 4,000,000
--- SSJ : 200,000,000

Son Goku : 4,400,000
--- SSJ : 220,000,000


SSJ Future Gohan (1 arm) : 180,000,000
Future Android 17 (full power) : 360,000,000
Future Android 18 : 330,000,000


Alright, to have something else to discuss, will include the initial levels of the next saga too.


Yamcha : 2,200,000
Tenshinhan : 3,000,000
Kuririn : 4,000,000
Son Gohan : 5,300,000

[One thing I don't like is the earthlings getting bigger proportional gains than Gohan in spite of Gohan having trained with Piccolo and Goku... But eh, can't be helped as I like to picture the earthlings at least in the low millions here. Maybe they managed to squeeze out every ounce of potential they had for gains and maxed out, while Gohan was in the imminence of getting a huge boost with further training. And I don't like to have Gohan above that since I like to have his base level weaker than future Trunks from this time still... As Gohan is still definitely considerably weaker than Goku under same forms]

Android 19 : 158,000,000
--- post KMHMH absorption : 198,000,000
--- post weakened base Goku : 200,000,000

Android 20 : 182,000,000
--- post Vegeta's blast : 200,000,000
--- post suppressed Piccolo : 220,000,000

Piccolo : 260,000,000

Future Trunks : 6,000,000
--- SSJ : 300,000,000

Son Goku : 6,600,000
--- SSJ : 330,000,000

Vegeta : 6,800,000
--- SSJ : 340,000,000

Android 18 : 450,000,000
Android 17 : 500,000,000

I don't think 20 has to be > 19. Piccolo's line about "Were you weaker than we thought, or are we too strong?" refers to both Androids. 20 absorbed way less Ki than 19.

Where do you have Sick Goku? 240?

[Grimlock]

1600 to me is far above the range, it's 25% more.

Yes, I would agree that "1,600" is starting to push things a little bit far. Which is why I wouldn't take that promotional... thing into consideration. I'm more comfortable with the old "1,500". It's not that big of a gap and it's within the "comparable range".

[LightBing]

How is the number contradictory to the manga if it never gave a number to him?

I address it in my previous post.

To be short...
- 1200 rivals Raditz.
- 1600 to 1200 is a 25% gap.

Another examples of a confirmed 25% gap:
Vegeta vs Kaiokenx3 Goku
Vegeta vs Kiwi

Conclusion a 25% gap doesn't fall in the category of "rival"(to possess qualities or aptitudes that approach or equal).

Extra note: the only attacks that ever hurt Raditz were in the 13xx.
Pretty sure Toriyama didn't throw the 1200 randomly and remembered how he had Raditz get his ass-kicked in the previous arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

May be a bit unfair to use something that Toriyama didn't write, but Gohan is said to rival Goku but is powerless against Toppo, Goku's equal.

[Mireya]

I don't think 20 has to be > 19. Piccolo's line about "Were you weaker than we thought, or are we too strong?" refers to both Androids. 20 absorbed way less Ki than 19.

Where do you have Sick Goku? 240?

Yeah it could go either way. I generally like to think 20 regained his status as the stronger between the two once he absorbed the blast and suppressed Piccolo.

Yeah sick Goku would be like 240. Moderately above his pre 3 years power.

[Koitsukai]

So, with Oppenheimer in the spotlight, I was wondering when did the characters get atomic power at their disposal?
Was Roshi destroying the moon already as strong as an atomic bomb?
Piccolo Jr. blowing up the stage?
Piccolo's makankosappo?

And when did they become able to access that power casually? like a lousy, run of the mill ki blast being as strong as an atomic bomb?
Like when did Tenshinhan, Krilin, Yamcha, Piccolo, Gohan, etc... became that powerful? after training with Kami? after training with Kaio?
I doubt Chaozu got ever that strong, for instance.

[Yuji]

So, with Oppenheimer in the spotlight, I was wondering when did the characters get atomic power at their disposal?
Was Roshi destroying the moon already as strong as an atomic bomb?
Piccolo Jr. blowing up the stage?
Piccolo's makankosappo?

And when did they become able to access that power casually? like a lousy, run of the mill ki blast being as strong as an atomic bomb?
Like when did Tenshinhan, Krilin, Yamcha, Piccolo, Gohan, etc... became that powerful? after training with Kami? after training with Kaio?
I doubt Chaozu got ever that strong, for instance.

I'm not sure if this is a serious post but even Roshi's Kamehameha on mount Frypan is already quite literally as destructive as the most powerful hydrogen bomb ever detonated, which in itself is already thousands of times more destructive than the WW2 bombs.

Fat Man exerted a power of 21 kilotons. The strongest bomb ever detonated, the Tsar Bomba, exerted a power of 50,000 kilotons. Roshi vaporizing an entire mountain exerts a similar power to this, if not more.

So to answer your question, in the first arcs of the series, Goku and Roshi would survive and can output power similar to a hydrogen bomb with their full power Kamehameha, which makes sense considering Goku single-handedly defeats a small army in the third arc of the series, which likely have better technology than our own. By the time Piccolo Daimao can casually erase cities by flicking his wrist, then there you have your casual nukes.

Blowing up the moon is already far beyond what any man-made weapon can do, and Piccolo Jr could do it with a casual ki blast. Chaozu had surpassed both Daimao and Raditz-fight Piccolo Jr. by the Saiyan invasion so he can casually destroy a city and the moon too.

[Noah]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

[ZombieVito]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

3rd form Freeza.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, with Oppenheimer in the spotlight, I was wondering when did the characters get atomic power at their disposal?
Was Roshi destroying the moon already as strong as an atomic bomb?
Piccolo Jr. blowing up the stage?
Piccolo's makankosappo?

And when did they become able to access that power casually? like a lousy, run of the mill ki blast being as strong as an atomic bomb?
Like when did Tenshinhan, Krilin, Yamcha, Piccolo, Gohan, etc... became that powerful? after training with Kami? after training with Kaio?
I doubt Chaozu got ever that strong, for instance.

Atomic bombs can’t blow up the moon, so Roshi was already up there. If that doesn’t count for some reason, then Piccolo Daimao is compared to a nuke. Piccolo nlowing up the capital with a blast (not casual but not his best either) is a nuclear-level feat.

Truth is, most stories that involve super powers have said powers far oustrip real life ones. Dragon Ball isn’t shying away from that.

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

Right now I think Kuririn and Tien could beat true form Freeza if he’s in a slow % of his power. Yamcha ties with 3rd form Freeza so he beats Nailccolo. Chaozu can fight evenly with 1st form Freeza and maybe win with telekinesis.

Kuririn: 7,500,000
Tenshinhan: 5,000,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 500,000

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

They could tango with Frieza (vs Base Goku) imo So in the 3-4mil range imo.

What Multiplier do you guys have for Coolers 5th form and if Frieza had a 5th form how strong would he be?

[Yuji]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

I don't think the humans are significantly weaker than the base Saiyans until the Moro arc, so they could give final form Freeza a run for his money especially if they team upm

[ZombieVito]

Right now I think Kuririn and Tien could beat true form Freeza if he’s in a slow % of his power. Yamcha ties with 3rd form Freeza so he beats Nailccolo. Chaozu can fight evenly with 1st form Freeza and maybe win with telekinesis.

Kuririn: 7,500,000
Tenshinhan: 5,000,000
Yamcha: 2,000,000
Chaozu: 500,000

Oh, you changed your mind about them being weak. Nice.

[p-hyvo]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

They could tango with Frieza (vs Base Goku) imo So in the 3-4mil range imo.

What Multiplier do you guys have for Coolers 5th form and if Frieza had a 5th form how strong would he be?

About coora well, fifth form is a beast and should at least be a x30 (even more imo , but let's stick to the bare minimum) over the fourth form since fourth form coora was tied with base Goku while in his fifth form coora literally swimmed throught a X20 kaioken Kamehameha like eating candies and punched him out of kaioken many times

[p-hyvo]

Who is the strongest opponent that the Earthlings from the Boo arc could defeat?

I'd split the answers because things vary wildly between anime and manga

MANGA :
Crillin aside, that I don't see why I should scale him far weaker than 18 at that point since they trained together and it would make him irrelevant anyway power wise.

Yamcha was considered to be Goku initially by gero, and he didn't think that Goku could grow in power significantly after the Saiyan saga, so imo Yamcha should be around 32-40K at best in that part of the story

Tien always trained , even harder than Yamcha did, but he fell to irrelevance anyway. The only way he could pull a oneshot to Frieza is with shin kikoho, and I see that as reliable too since Frieza would be so cocky to let him do it. But in power, if he's at base android arc Gohan's level it's enough.

Jiaozi oh man, he literally has nothing for him. By the Time of boo saga he could even perfectly still be weaker than Saiyan saga Vegeta imo, or anyway not higher than X3 kaioken Goku. I think he's always weaker than peak Yamcha.

ANIME:

oh, now I'm laughing. You know that few episodes in late boo saga where Yamcha and crillin got trained in haven? Yes, so....

End of boo saga crillin and Yamcha are literally stronger than super perfect cell since they're stronger than paikuhan who could oneshot cell when suppressed and even 7 years prior . Basically, they're at least decently stronger than base beginning of arc Goku but still decently weaker than SSJ Goku at least

My take on Tien and jiaozi doesn't change at all since they're featless

[p-hyvo]

SOO, I TRIED MAKING ANOTHER WHOLE POST TO EXPLAIN THIS THING WITH MY PHASE, BUT EVIDENTLY ADMINS DIDN'T LIKE A POWER SCALING RELATED POST NOT MADE AS A REPLY TO THIS, SO HERE I AM.

I'LL START DOING A BOO SAGA POWER SCALING CHAIN, SO PLEASE WAIT FOR ME TO END THIS BEFORE REPLYING TO WHAT I'M GOING TO SAY.

ONLY THING IS THAT I DON'T KNOW HOW TO LINK MY SOURCES HERE, BUT NO WORRY : IF YOU WANT THEM, JUST PM ME AND I'LL REDIRECT YOU TO SOME FACEBOOK POSTS I'VE MADE WHERE I'VE POSTED EVERYTHING I'M GOING TO USE HERE. THANKS FOR THE PATIENCE,I KNOW THIS WILL BE USEFUL.

[p-hyvo]

PART 1 : GOHAN, PICCOLO, GOTEN AND TRUNKS

for starters, let's give to base cell saga Gohan an arbitrary value of 1.

GOHAN
We know that boo saga Hogan is considerably weaker than teen Gohan , but I don't really see any logic in saying that he's like 1/10 strong or something like that, so we'll say that he's 0.4-0.5, seems about right since he's yes weaker but not exaggeratedly so.

GOTEN AND TRUNKS
Daizenshuu states that *BEFORE THEIR TRAINING* Goten had nothing to be deemed as weaker than Gohan , and even in the manga Gohan says that if he doesn't get back on track, soon the kids will surpass him.
So, if
Gohan 0.4
I'd say that
Goten 0.36
Trunks 0.385

Obviously, Gohan being a fully grown man and only having to get back on track means that the training he does gives him more fruits than what it gives to Goten, so I'll say that
25# Tenkaichi Gohan 0.8
25# Tenkaichi Goten and trunks 0.5 and 0.525

Goten and Trunks won't power if much more than this, because as Piccolo will later say there's almost no difference between pre and post RoSaT Goten and Trunks.
So
Post RoSaT Goten 0.54
Post RoSaT Trunks 0.56

PICCOLO
As we should have no doubts about, since Piccolo came up as the dominant factor inside Boo after Gotenks de-merged, Piccolo>SSJ Goten and Trunks. Obviously, not by much since there's no reason to believe that and base Gotenks> Piccolo is just right basing on Piccolo's reaction to the fusion.
So , I'll say

Piccolo 30 , with SSJ Goten and trunks being 27 and 28 respectively and Gohan being 40 as a SSJ and 80 as a SSJ2