Fanmanga - DB Multiverse

[Lukmendes]

It's incredible that DBM's pacing is so bad that I can stop reading it for an year or two, and I can catch up with the relevant bits in like 10 minutes.

[Skar]

It's incredible that DBM's pacing is so bad that I can stop reading it for an year or two, and I can catch up with the relevant bits in like 10 minutes.

To be honest that's usually how long to takes to catch up on any fan comic yearly. I check the ongoing ones on the list every few months or once a year since not many have a schedule.

[Lukmendes]

To be honest that's usually how long to takes to catch up on any fan comic yearly. I check the ongoing ones on the list every few months or once a year since not many have a schedule.

Fair enough, but I feel that DBM's bad pacing is more noticeable given its more consistent publication and how much nothing happens, and so, so many pointless flashback chapters...

At least this time around I didn't return to Bra still being the worst character who overly dominates the plot, or overall U16 wankery, Goku and Vegeta's new form looks like an alright concept but I wonder what is really going on with 'em, 'cause at first I thought it was UI, but apparently it's some other SS? Are they somehow using SS3's power in base?

[Skar]

Fair enough, but I feel that DBM's bad pacing is more noticeable given its more consistent publication and how much nothing happens, and so, so many pointless flashback chapters...

I think comments about pacing in a fan comic are treating pacing and release as the same thing. I guess it would be like arguing Berserk, HxH, or any professional manga that slowed down their release now had slower pacing of the actual story. Newer fans who bingeread fan comics for the first time or bingewatch them on YouTube don't really mention pacing. It's sometimes the opposite since they usually rushed compared to how a professional comic would've taken more pages to tell the same story. If you compare the length of the longest fan comic fights or any particular scene, they're shorter than the average fight in a professional manga.

[Lukmendes]

I think comments about pacing in a fan comic are treating pacing and release as the same thing. I guess it would be like arguing Berserk, HxH, or any professional manga that slowed down their release now had slower pacing of the actual story. Newer fans who bingeread fan comics for the first time or bingewatch them on YouTube don't really mention pacing. It's sometimes the opposite since they usually rushed compared to how a professional comic would've taken more pages to tell the same story. If you compare the length of the longest fan comic fights or any particular scene, they're shorter than the average fight in a professional manga.

Thing is that DBM tells the story slowly while also having infinite flashbacks and showing pages of stuff being explained and splash pages when there's no need.

Possibly the worst moment from DBM's main chapters was Hatchiyack's mere existence, like half a chapter wasted with him screaming when the battle against Raichi was over already.

Essentially DBM kinda tries to pace itself kinda like a manga, which makes the usual crap pacing moments from mangas even more noticeable, and the infinite flashbacks are more obnoxious than fillers, since they slow down the story even more and are generally forgettable.

[Skar]

Thing is that DBM tells the story slowly while also having infinite flashbacks and showing pages of stuff being explained and splash pages when there's no need.

Possibly the worst moment from DBM's main chapters was Hatchiyack's mere existence, like half a chapter wasted with him screaming when the battle against Raichi was over already.

Essentially DBM kinda tries to pace itself kinda like a manga, which makes the usual crap pacing moments from mangas even more noticeable, and the infinite flashbacks are more obnoxious than fillers, since they slow down the story even more and are generally forgettable.

I can understand not liking specials. They're drawn by different artists to release something while the main chapters are being worked on. If they didn't have specials it would just be a break between chapters.

I definitely think it's a stretch to say any fan comic is trying to pace itself like a professional manga. Most fan artists would tell you how much they cut from the story and would add if they had the time to draw as much as a professional artist. I understand wanting it to be faster but any author knows there will be more people reading their story once it's over than while it's being released.

Could you give example of a different fan comic with the pacing and length of the scenes you would prefer seeing? I've noticed the argument of pacing comes from people who have only read one fan comic since the fans reading multiple fan comics don't comment about different pacing between them.

[Lukmendes]

I can understand not liking specials. They're drawn by different artists to release something while the main chapters are being worked on. If they didn't have specials it would just be a break between chapters.

Which would be fine, you don't need to make specials about pointless, redundant stuff like the origins of Broly's nose hair, DBM tries to add too much to its world while failing at telling interesting stories during the flashbacks, so I see breaks as more beneficial than telling a boring filler.

I definitely think it's a stretch to say any fan comic is trying to pace itself like a professional manga. Most fan artists would tell you how much they cut from the story and would add if they had the time to draw as much as a professional artist.

I was talking about DBM pacing itself like a manga.

I understand wanting it to be faster but any author knows there will be more people reading their story once it's over than while it's being released.

Only if the story begins and ends at a reasonable timetable, DBM started in 2008, it's been going for longer than Toriyama himself worked in the DB manga, and the tournament is still going, so, what, should I be thinking how great DBM will be as a read when Salagir finishes it in 2050 and ignore the endless nothingburgers before it ended?

Even on re-reads there's stuff that pads a story for longer than it should, Majin Bra being a particular infamous one.

Could you give example of a different fan comic with the pacing and length of the scenes you would prefer seeing? I've noticed the argument of pacing comes from people who have only read one fan comic since the fans reading multiple fan comics don't comment about different pacing between them.

Been a while since I've read other fan comics, I can only really think of that DB New Age as having a satisfactory pacing, though I think that one stopped.

Recently I also took a look at DB Kakumei, and the ideas in it are interesting, but sometimes the pacing slows down to a crawl even when it isn't focusing on like four or five stories at once.

Unrelated to DB but there's One Punch Man, which had alright pacing, but the Monsters Association arc got a pacing so bad just the arc alone had more chapters than the issues before it, and took like 6 years to end... And even if you're not aware of how long it took to end and Murata's constant redrawings, the pacing is still noticeably slow compared to earlier chapters.

Pacing is something tricky to get right, and a lot of times even official mangas are bad at it, DBS' manga got progressively shittier pacing over time, to the point that while I heard people saying that Granola's arc is better on a binge read, it seems it only went from "Holy shit this is completely miserable" to "Damn this is bad", 'cause even on a binge read it was clear just how long some fights overstayed their welcome.

So yeah, bad pacing is a problem in plenty of stories, and I never claimed only DBM suffers from it, but it's still a problem in it, and I've thought about that for years, but, like I said, at least this time I didn't return to Bra or U16 in general hogging all of the spotlight, 'cause it seems that when they take over the story stops or slows down for their sake (And I also think of them as mostly lazy derivatives of U18, which sucks, and Vegetto and Bra, the two characters who actually stand out, are obnoxious jackasses, so the story slowing down for their sake while their story sucks doesn't help).

[Skar]

Which would be fine, you don't need to make specials about pointless, redundant stuff like the origins of Broly's nose hair, DBM tries to add too much to its world while failing at telling interesting stories during the flashbacks, so I see breaks as more beneficial than telling a boring filler.

There are backstories I would prefer seeing. I'm not defending the others that don't really reveal anything new. It is difficult to find artists willing to draw for free so some specials are what the artist volunteered to draw. There are fewer readers during specials but there's enough to encourage new artists to volunteer to draw more of them.

Only if the story begins and ends at a reasonable timetable, DBM started in 2008, it's been going for longer than Toriyama himself worked in the DB manga, and the tournament is still going, so, what, should I be thinking how great DBM will be as a read when Salagir finishes it in 2050 and ignore the endless nothingburgers before it ended?

Even on re-reads there's stuff that pads a story for longer than it should, Majin Bra being a particular infamous one.

I'm not saying you have to wait. I meant that most people who bingeread usually don't say a specific scene should be shorter when it's only a few pages long. They cut down but you still want it to feel like a complete story for future readers. I've read many fan comics and definitely feel some move too quickly between scenes and could've benefited from a few extra pages since it would've been only a few extra minutes of reading.

So yeah, bad pacing is a problem in plenty of stories, and I never claimed only DBM suffers from it, but it's still a problem in it, and I've thought about that for years, but, like I said, at least this time I didn't return to Bra or U16 in general hogging all of the spotlight, 'cause it seems that when they take over the story stops or slows down for their sake (And I also think of them as mostly lazy derivatives of U18, which sucks, and Vegetto and Bra, the two characters who actually stand out, are obnoxious jackasses, so the story slowing down for their sake while their story sucks doesn't help).

To be fair, you gave examples of professional manga that have single arcs longer than most fan comics have total pages. For example, the Granolah arc which might be an average length arc by professional standards was almost as long as the main story of DBM. We might have different ideas of pacing because I was comparing the number of pages they would be using for a similar type of scene. I can't think of any professional manga I've read with the same actual pacing of a fan comic in terms of how short the fights are, length of the arcs, climax, etc.

[Lukmendes]

There are backstories I would prefer seeing. I'm not defending the others that don't really reveal anything new. It is difficult to find artists willing to draw for free so some specials are what the artist volunteered to draw. There are fewer readers during specials but there's enough to encourage new artists to volunteer to draw more of them.

Which makes it feel like a waste when decent artists draw nothingburger flashbacks, such as every U9 special.

I'm not saying you have to wait. I meant that most people who bingeread usually don't say a specific scene should be shorter when it's only a few pages long. They cut down but you still want it to feel like a complete story for future readers. I've read many fan comics and definitely feel some move too quickly between scenes and could've benefited from a few extra pages since it would've been only a few extra minutes of reading.

Well in some cases for DBM I feel that having less pages can be better sometimes, like the Hatchiyack example.

Though there are times where cutting stuff can be awkward, like one situation in the Majin rebellion, where Bardock saw a future where Gohan beats up everyone, and when Bardock explains his vision, it feels like parts of his explanation were cut (He tells Babidi about a "he" without specifying, kinda like he already said who it was, but he didn't), and the novelization has the same explanation, but longer, and it looked more cohesive because of that.

To be fair, you gave examples of professional manga that have single arcs longer than most fan comics have total pages. For example, the Granolah arc which might be an average length arc by professional standards was almost as long as the main story of DBM.

Well yeah and it was filled with nothingburger fights lol.

My point was never that DBM is the only thing with bad pacing, again, One Punch Man's Monsters Association arc is really, really bad even if I don't keep Murata's need to redraw so many scenes in mind, but, worse pacing existing doesn't make DBM's good.

We might have different ideas of pacing because I was comparing the number of pages they would be using for a similar type of scene. I can't think of any professional manga I've read with the same actual pacing of a fan comic in terms of how short the fights are, length of the arcs, climax, etc.

Well I'm thinking about how much story is shown over time and how long some scenes are, and I keep DBM's publication rate in mind, which, I feel it got worse over time, and a lot of it is simply because of the flashbacks, which are comparable to the fillers from the DB anime, which certainly helped in making that have crap pacing.

[Skar]

Well I'm thinking about how much story is shown over time and how long some scenes are, and I keep DBM's publication rate in mind, which, I feel it got worse over time, and a lot of it is simply because of the flashbacks, which are comparable to the fillers from the DB anime, which certainly helped in making that have crap pacing.

I think you're still missing my point because I'm not saying those examples you gave had bad pacing and just longer. The only time I've heard about any fan comic having bad pacing is during its slower release because they're compared to how many chapters a professional manga would have in the same timeframe. Your original comment was that you can catch up in ten minutes which you could do with any fan comic since they usually have 2-3 chapters in a year vs a professional manga releasing 12 monthly or 50 weekly chapters.

In all the stories I've added to that compilation thread or watching YouTube narrations covering an entire fan comic, there aren't many comments about a completed or no longer updating fan comic having bad pacing. When release time is no longer a factor, it becomes more obvious how much shorter everything is in a fan comic compared to a professional manga (length of the fights, arcs involving that many characters, etc). The longest fan comics are about as many pages as a regular manga arc. The SH retelling and some earlier DBS manga arcs would be considered a miniarc by professional standards but more pages than most arcs in any fan comic including Majin arc in DBM which was a battle royale with a few dozen characters, most arcs in Young Jiji's AF or Kakumei which also involve more characters, or Rigor arc in New Age.

[Noah]

Well, much better that they decided to continue the Saiyans' fight rather than ending it with a single blow. Interested to see how it will actually end.

Now a question for you guys: do you think that among the many influences that Modern DB may have had on Multiverse, this new Ultimate Form of Goku and Vegeta was one of them? Because I'm absolutely sure that if back in BoG, Super Saiyan God had been a form full of extravagance like SSJ4, most likely these Ultimate Forms in Multiverse would be too.

[Skar]

Well, much better that they decided to continue the Saiyans' fight rather than ending it with a single blow. Interested to see how it will actually end.

Now a question for you guys: do you think that among the many influences that Modern DB may have had on Multiverse, this new Ultimate Form of Goku and Vegeta was one of them? Because I'm absolutely sure that if back in BoG, Super Saiyan God had been a form full of extravagance like SSJ4, most likely these Ultimate Forms in Multiverse would be too.

I think this was the only form they had in mind since the beginning. This form was first foreshadowed when Vegeta said he wanted to find something better than SSJ3 and mentioned how Gohan can use all his power without transforming. Early on the writers said that there wouldn't be any new Saiyan transformations which is common for DBZ sequel fan comics. The more extravagant forms are usually only in GT sequels like the well known SSJ5 and SSJ6 in Young Jiji's AF.

[Ashur]

And i thought nothing could top Goku vs Uub...

[jjgp1112]

Look, this is a very well drawn fight, but oh my God,

[FoolsGil]

Look, this is a very well drawn fight, but oh my God,

It is definitely feeling, pardon my french, masturbatory at this point.

[jjgp1112]

Look, this is a very well drawn fight, but oh my God,

It is definitely feeling, pardon my french, masturbatory at this point.

I know the common refrain is, "It'll feel better when read all at once!" but we're on nearly 30 pages of basically no progress happening. How many more panels do we need to illustrate that these two are evenly matched?

It's all self-indulgent in a way you'd never see in Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Just fight porn with no purpose or forward story movement.

[Skar]

I know the common refrain is, "It'll feel better when read all at once!" but we're on nearly 30 pages of basically no progress happening. How many more panels do we need to illustrate that these two are evenly matched?

It's all self-indulgent in a way you'd never see in Toriyama's Dragon Ball. Just fight porn with no purpose or forward story movement.

It was Asura who wanted to draw a longer fight probably because it's one of the last few fights in the story. Next tournament matches are against XXI which are usually short then maybe the final showdown shown in Bardock's visions. I do agree it's self-indulgent. To be fair, every DB story official or fanmade after Toriyama's original manga has it since fan service and references usually aren't intended to move the story forward and just something an artist or animator wanted to include.

[FoolsGil]

And there we go.

[Lukmendes]

I think this was the only form they had in mind since the beginning. This form was first foreshadowed when Vegeta said he wanted to find something better than SSJ3 and mentioned how Gohan can use all his power without transforming. Early on the writers said that there wouldn't be any new Saiyan transformations which is common for DBZ sequel fan comics. The more extravagant forms are usually only in GT sequels like the well known SSJ5 and SSJ6 in Young Jiji's AF.

I vaguely recall Salagir saying that Goku and Vegeta didn't grow much stronger since Boo saga, but then again, that could've been a lie to hide the new form... Assuming it's been planned for that long.

And there we go.

And then Vegeta will reveal he had a few senzu hidden on his boot, he'll eat one, give another to Goku, and we can start this all over again .

[miguelnuva1]

I think this was the only form they had in mind since the beginning. This form was first foreshadowed when Vegeta said he wanted to find something better than SSJ3 and mentioned how Gohan can use all his power without transforming. Early on the writers said that there wouldn't be any new Saiyan transformations which is common for DBZ sequel fan comics. The more extravagant forms are usually only in GT sequels like the well known SSJ5 and SSJ6 in Young Jiji's AF.

I vaguely recall Salagir saying that Goku and Vegeta didn't grow much stronger since Boo saga, but then again, that could've been a lie to hide the new form... Assuming it's been planned for that long.

[

[/quote]

They didn't grow much stronger in SS1-3 from the buu saga.


The new form however is different.