Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Alkiser]

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

Ressurrection of F was skipped in the manga continuity. You can verify between chapters #4 and #5 that it has no mention of the “Saiyan Beyond God” state that is exclusive to the movie and anime, and it couldn’t have since in Champa Arc Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan forms below SSG. The only form from the movie that carried on was Super Saiyan Blue.

The anime version also uses standard transformations, already going by simple logic to master SSJ Blue at all you need the ability to use divine ki in its base form. Just trying to pretend that ROF in the manga continuity might have looked different from the movie is silly. Following your logic Vegeta should be ten times weaker than Goku because he never attained SSJ God through ritual thus he did not adapt this power to his base form but trained it on himself with Whis. And yet all the time Goku and Vegeta are equals.

[QuakingStar]

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

Ressurrection of F was skipped in the manga continuity. You can verify between chapters #4 and #5 that it has no mention of the “Saiyan Beyond God” state that is exclusive to the movie and anime, and it couldn’t have since in Champa Arc Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan forms below SSG. The only form from the movie that carried on was Super Saiyan Blue.

The manga directly refers you to watch the movie, the events of ROF are directly mentioned in the U6 saga and in the universe survival saga when Shin explains to Elder Kaioshin what happened to Frieza.

God-like Saiyan stopped existing after the U6 v U7 saga in the manga because they retconned it, it was never shown again and Goku and Vegeta would use all of their SS forms and SSGod more.

Edit

I just went and looked and he never even uses it in the manga besides possibly the scene where he is flying at Whis to try and hit him and an image of SSGod was shown, but that was never confirmed to mean he was using SSGods power.

[Koitsukai]

It doesn't matter what or how the events of RoF transpired in manga, because by the time the Champa arc kicks in, whatever extraordinary base power Goku had is long gone when he uses SS left and right, and later on we'll see him using SS2 vs Trunks whose power was compared to that of Gohan's vs Cell.

Out-of-universe, it was an idea scrapped once the franchise was developed as a series and the SS forms were coming back.
In-universe, I guess it wasn't a permanent thing, or perhaps more akin to using SSG without actually transforming. Like a beta SSG form.

Maybe it goes:
base
SS/2/3
BBG
SSG/SSB

But of course it isn't because we would've seen it plenty of other times, instead of SS3.

[Cipher]

OR.... Super Saiyan Vegeta is just that strong, and Goku is as well, cementing Goku and Vegeta in their base forms as above the likes of Shin and Cell by this point in the timeline even in the manga.

After all, Goku needs to be taking on Uub in just a few short years.

Goku vs. Trunks (manga...well, both versions, but the anime's a huge mess on this front and hard to even discuss) really doesn't track if both Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be radically above their Boo arc powers in all forms.

Vegeta vs. Black is the manga's single biggest head-scratcher, but it's easier to figure it's his buffed Super Saiyan 2 form there than it is to attempt to rewrite an entire reading of the manga around it, for all the other head-scratchers and inconsistencies that would introduce.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

OR.... Super Saiyan Vegeta is just that strong, and Goku is as well, cementing Goku and Vegeta in their base forms as above the likes of Shin and Cell by this point in the timeline even in the manga.

After all, Goku needs to be taking on Uub in just a few short years.

Goku vs. Trunks (manga...well, both versions, but the anime's a huge mess on this front and hard to even discuss) really doesn't track if both Goku and Vegeta are supposed to be radically above their Boo arc powers in all forms.

Vegeta vs. Black is the manga's single biggest head-scratcher, but it's easier to figure it's his buffed Super Saiyan 2 form there than it is to attempt to rewrite an entire reading of the manga around it, for all the other head-scratchers and inconsistencies that would introduce.

I honestly don't think so.

For starters, my take lines up with the anime AND the BoG and RoF storylines more in terms of how those events transpire given how all 3 establish that Goku and Freeza are majorly strong even in their base forms after training and experiencing godly power.

Plus, the simple idea of Goku holding back to show off to Future Trunks how much stronger everyone has gotten fits to me; the anime showed this off plenty of times as well. It also means we don't need to give Vegeta an entirely unique power that he's never been shown to have retained to maintain the simplicity of Goku and Vegeta being equal in the same forms.

Really, the manga isn't entirely so detached from the anime when it comes to the idea of base power being far higher than before.

[ZombieVito]

Plus, the simple idea of Goku holding back to show off to Future Trunks how much stronger everyone has gotten fits to me; the anime showed this off plenty of times as well. It also means we don't need to give Vegeta an entirely unique power that he's never been shown to have retained to maintain the simplicity of Goku and Vegeta being equal in the same forms.

Really, the manga isn't entirely so detached from the anime when it comes to the idea of base power being far higher than before.

But this is never remotely implied on both mediums. We even have Whis and Beerus say the were equal (Or Trunks was slightly stronger) and both of them wouldn't be fooled by Goku suppressing himself.

Actually in the anime, Trunks is the one holding back as a SS2 since after Goku transforms into SS3 Trunks says he will use his full power too.

[TobyS]

Hey pssst and did you know that Fukkatsu no F and the state Saiyan beyond God is also part of manga continuity?

Ressurrection of F was skipped in the manga continuity. You can verify between chapters #4 and #5 that it has no mention of the “Saiyan Beyond God” state that is exclusive to the movie and anime, and it couldn’t have since in Champa Arc Goku and Vegeta are still using Super Saiyan forms below SSG. The only form from the movie that carried on was Super Saiyan Blue.

The manga directly refers you to watch the movie, the events of ROF are directly mentioned in the U6 saga and in the universe survival saga when Shin explains to Elder Kaioshin what happened to Frieza.

That's called cross promotion, and this was back when the manga was a glorified spin off/advert. Obviously the broad strokes of the plot happened but it doesn't have to be the same way with the same scaling.

It tells you to watch BOG also, yet we already know the manga and movie are set on a boat/capsule corp and not compatible.

The rof chapter was strictly a promotion and isn't included in the tanbokens while randomass anime festival bonus chapters are.

[Hugo Boss]

The fact of the matter is that the manga doesn’t mention anything about “Saiyan Beyond God” state that we are taking about. It doesn’t even tell the audience to watch the movie, I don’t know where he is getting this from. It only does a recap of the events in chapter #32 and slightly alters the narrative:

Whis: “After his army was defeated, Freeza transformed to Golden Freeza, but Goku and Vegeta killed him using Super Saiyan Blue.”

So, it directly tells you that Freeza transformed from the get-go, suggesting Goku never fought him using god-like power in his base form, he used Super Saiyan Blue instead. This actually is corroborated by Freeza’s 4th form being pressured by Super Saiyan Caulifla, who obviously isn’t as strong as a SSG.

[QuakingStar]

Yup, that state doesn't exist in the manga which is the main canon to the series.

[VegettoEX]

The rof chapter was strictly a promotion and isn't included in the tanbokens while randomass anime festival bonus chapters are.

I mean, the Resurrection 'F' manga chapters were just that: manga chapters for the theatrical film Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F'. They were produced before Super existed (and likely before anyone thought about maybe perhaps one day getting around to planning for it).

So of course they're not included in the Dragon Ball Super collected volumes, unlike bonus chapters of the Dragon Ball Super manga which are in fact Dragon Ball Super bonus manga chapters.

I don't really see how this is particularly confusing or even relevant...?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The rof chapter was strictly a promotion and isn't included in the tanbokens while randomass anime festival bonus chapters are.

I mean, the Resurrection 'F' manga chapters were just that: manga chapters for the theatrical film Dragon Ball Z: Resurrection 'F'. They were produced before Super existed (and likely before anyone thought about maybe perhaps one day getting around to planning for it).

So of course they're not included in the Dragon Ball Super collected volumes, unlike bonus chapters of the Dragon Ball Super manga which are in fact Dragon Ball Super bonus manga chapters.

I don't really see how this is particularly confusing or even relevant...?

I think some of the discourse is surrounding exactly what the heck the DBS manga's depiction of RoF is supposed to be then. Because it skipped out on it entirely, we don't know if the story beats and overall minute details are supposed to be like the film or not.

And given how a lot of current strength debate centres around these events in particular and how they compare to later events in the manga, I think it's a very important distinction to make since a simple made-up unique version of RoF in the DBS manga doesn't exactly make things easy to figure out.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s not that the manga is different (that doesn’t make any sense), the problem is that even the anime likes to flip flop on Base Saiyans so it’s hard to know what the manga thinks.

[Hugo Boss]

It’s not that the manga is different (that doesn’t make any sense), the problem is that even the anime likes to flip flop on Base Saiyans so it’s hard to know what the manga thinks.

Why the manga having slightly different versions of those events doesn’t make sense though? It’s not like those divergences exist because of powerlevels, although I don’t doubt powerlevels might have contributed to some of them.

Anyway, the manga consistently portrays Base Saiyans as inferior to Super Saiyan God. I have yet to see any instance proving the contrary.

[Thani]

Out-of-universe, it was an idea scrapped once the franchise was developed as a series and the SS forms were coming back.
In-universe, I guess it wasn't a permanent thing, or perhaps more akin to using SSG without actually transforming. Like a beta SSG form.

It's pretty much that, with the concept ocasionally returning during arcs that has nothing to do with the main narrative, like the Copy Vegeta arc.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

It’s not that the manga is different (that doesn’t make any sense), the problem is that even the anime likes to flip flop on Base Saiyans so it’s hard to know what the manga thinks.

Why the manga having slightly different versions of those events doesn’t make sense though? It’s not like those divergences exist because of powerlevels, although I don’t doubt powerlevels might have contributed to some of them.

Anyway, the manga consistently portrays Base Saiyans as inferior to Super Saiyan God. I have yet to see any instance proving the contrary.

One thing is having different events, another is us assuming it’s different just because we didn’t see it. I always saw it the other way around - everybody knows how it goes, so no point in re-retelling.

[Hugo Boss]

One thing is having different events, another is us assuming it’s different just because we didn’t see it. I always saw it the other way around - everybody knows how it goes, so no point in re-retelling.

If you’re talking about RoF, the manga is very specific about what happens differently from the movie and anime, which is the absence of Base Goku vs. Freeza’s final form. We assume it didn’t happen because Whis implies so. What he doesn’t mention I don’t see any reason to assume it happens differently.

[SupremeKai25]

So apparently DBS transformations won't be featured very much in Dragon Ball Daima (Ajay saying "don't hold your breath for DBS transformation stuff especially"), which is good. The power-creep in this series has gone completely unchecked since the Anime ended in 2018. I'm certainly not interested in seeing "True!!! Ultra Instinct" (which is still somehow fodder compared to Beerus).

Since this series is made by Toei and still seems to be in Anime continuity, I wonder if we will see more of the "Saiyan Beyond God" (aka God-level Base form) concept.

They'll probably make Base Saiyans even stronger than they were in the DBS anime, if they are to contend with strong opponents without overtly relying on transformations. They have to, No? If the Saiyans can't rely that much on transformations anymore, then either their opponents will be much weaker than Super opponents or their Base forms will be made stronger.

We might see even more statements of their Base forms being God-level or having some kind of Godly power.

[ZombieVito]

So apparently DBS transformations won't be featured very much in Dragon Ball Daima (Ajay saying "don't hold your breath for DBS transformation stuff especially"), which is good. The power-creep in this series has gone completely unchecked since the Anime ended in 2018. I'm certainly not interested in seeing "True!!! Ultra Instinct" (which is still somehow fodder compared to Beerus).

Since this series is made by Toei and still seems to be in Anime continuity, I wonder if we will see more of the "Saiyan Beyond God" (aka God-level Base form) concept.

They'll probably make Base Saiyans even stronger than they were in the DBS anime, if they are to contend with strong opponents without overtly relying on transformations. They have to, No? If the Saiyans can't rely that much on transformations anymore, then either their opponents will be much weaker than Super opponents or their Base forms will be made stronger.

We might see even more statements of their Base forms being God-level or having some kind of Godly power.

But how is that a good idea? SSB transformations ruled. It would just be boring as hell to me without them.

[QuakingStar]

Maybe Goku and Vegeta will get their tails back and discover another transformation (The canonized SS4) which will probably force their bodies into adult size while being used. I'm hoping that that would be where the GT tyoe canonizations end though, with SS4.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Was it even said the series takes place after Super?

It could just be set before Beerus couldn't it?