Goku is really good at breaking his limits

[super michael]

Goku was able to surpass his future self from Future Trunks time line and his future self from when Zamasu stole his body. Goku has managed to surpass Goku Black and Merged Zamasu, both who are from the future.

Goku Black is 1 year after U7 Vs U6.

Goku has gained UI a skill that only Angel has. Only Beerus has UI skills, but he can't transform into UI Omen or UI. He is sort of like Master Roshi.

[SupremeKai25]

He broke his limits against Initial Fused Zamasu and only managed to scratch half his face and destroy his Halo, at the cost of shattering his arms and legs. Then Fused Zamasu went on to power-up so much that only something that vastly surpassed SSB Kaioken Goku could deal with him.

As for Goku Black, he was stronger than Goku when he merged as stated by Gowasu. And while Black's body was one year older than Main Goku's, it also wasn't his body, which handicapped him. Zamasu was still a genius for figuring out how to unlock the true potential of the Saiyan body, which is "alien" to him.

If Zamasu was still alive, he would obviously remain ahead of Goku, since he is literally Goku but better. That's his character concept. He is Goku + An Immortal guy, so he will always be ahead of Goku if he is allowed to train and evolve (clearly he can no longer do that since he's erased from existence).

In Heroes, Black is still alive and able to continuously evolve his Rosé form to the point that it takes Gogeta Blue himself to beat him.

Goku was only able to surpass Fused Zamasu/Goku Black because they're dead and he isn't. There's nothing more to it.

Whenever Black and Goku are alive at the same time, Black is consistently portrayed as having the edge on Goku.

[Grimlock]

Goku Black is 1 year after U7 Vs U6.

The character or the saga?

[Hugo Boss]

He broke his limits against Initial Fused Zamasu and only managed to scratch half his face and destroy his Halo, at the cost of shattering his arms and legs. Then Fused Zamasu went on to power-up so much that only something that vastly surpassed SSB Kaioken Goku could deal with him.

Scratch his face is an understatement. The point of that beam clash is to show that if Zamasu wasn’t immortal, he would have been obliterated by that kamehameha. He wouldn’t have the opportunity to power-up further, although he does so only because the immortality of the other Zamasu saved him. So, it’s not wrong to say that Goku has surpassed Zamasu, despite him having great potential.

[super michael]

Goku Black is 1 year after U7 Vs U6.

The character or the saga?

The character Goku Black is 1 year after U7 vs U6 Tournament. We know Zamasu went into the future to use the Super Dragon Ball, which takes 1 year to recharge.

[SupremeKai25]

He broke his limits against Initial Fused Zamasu and only managed to scratch half his face and destroy his Halo, at the cost of shattering his arms and legs. Then Fused Zamasu went on to power-up so much that only something that vastly surpassed SSB Kaioken Goku could deal with him.

Scratch his face is an understatement.

It's not. All he did was scratch his face.

Zamasu then raised his aura with so much power and rage that it shattered the entire surrounding area, while Goku couldn't even move without Shin's help.

The point of that beam clash is to show that if Zamasu wasn’t immortal, he would have been obliterated by that kamehameha.

The point of that beam clash is literally the exact opposite.

It's meant to show that the Fused Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, due to Black's body being mortal, which is why the Fused Zamasu could not regenerate the damage to his face.

So Goku's Kamehameha (+ Zamasu's own attack getting deflected back at him) only caused an injury to half his face and nothing more (he couldn't even blow up his head like he did to Future Zamasu earlier). Meanwhile, when Perfect Cell got hit by his own attack plus someone else's kamehameha, he lost 3 limbs and was bleeding profusely. Zamasu only got scarred on half his face.

This is unsurprising, Fused Zamasu is literally Goku + Someone else, ofc Goku will lose. Goku surpassed Fused Zamasu only because Zamasu is dead and can't evolve anymore.

[Hugo Boss]

All he did was scratch his face.

Zamasu then raised his aura with so much power and rage that it shattered the entire surrounding area, while Goku couldn't even move without Shin's help.

Which again only happened because half of his body simply can’t be damaged. The point is not to discuss if Zamasu powered-up or not, but the damage Goku inflicted suggests if he was 100% Goku Black he would be dead. Since he was 50% Goku Black, 50% of his body was badly damaged.

The point of that beam clash is to show that if Zamasu wasn’t immortal, he would have been obliterated by that kamehameha.

The point of that beam clash is literally the exact opposite.

It's meant to show that the Fused Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, due to Black's body being mortal, which is why the Fused Zamasu could not regenerate the damage to his face.

That’s what I said. I’m not sure what you trying to imply by this. Do you think Goku Black would win a beam clash against that kamehameha and survive?

[SupremeKai25]

All he did was scratch his face.

Zamasu then raised his aura with so much power and rage that it shattered the entire surrounding area, while Goku couldn't even move without Shin's help.

Which again only happened because half of his body simply can’t be damaged. The point is not to discuss if Zamasu powered-up or not, but the damage Goku inflicted suggests if he was 100% Goku Black he would be dead. Since he was 50% Goku Black, 50% of his body was badly damaged.

Half his body wasn't damaged, half his face was damaged, which is different.

At best you can argue that that attack would have scarred the whole of Black's face, which most certainly does not result in death.

That’s what I said. I’m not sure what you trying to imply by this

You said the point of the beam clash is to prove that Zamasu is still immortal because his face was scarred instead of him dying.

At no point does the Story ever even imply that Zamasu or Black would have died to that attack if not for immortality.

The only point of that scene is to prove that Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, hence why he can't heal the damage that his head just tanked.

Goku Black is 1 year after U7 Vs U6.

The character or the saga?

The character Goku Black is 1 year after U7 vs U6 Tournament. We know Zamasu went into the future to use the Super Dragon Ball, which takes 1 year to recharge.

Goku Black in Heroes was able to kill 99 different versions of Goku, not even the Main UI Goku could put him down, and Goku was then forced to fuse into Gogeta Blue to end him.

So the Goku that had his body stolen by Zamasu likely would have surpassed Main Goku if he didn't die (just look what Zamasu was able to accomplish with his body and he had just started tapping into its full potential). He is from a point in time when he has one more year worth of experience and gains compared to Main Goku.

[Koitsukai]

Even Vermouth complains about this, "how many times will Goku break his limits?"

His ceiling is constantly broken, even Dr. Gero thought he had hit a plateau in the saiyan arc, but then he goes and becomes like 300x stronger on Namek... and keeps on breaking those limits with SS.
Then for 3 years the gains are minimal. But in the ROSAT he, again, fucks those limits in the ass. Being dead, he keeps on doing what he does best, unlocking 2 other forms.

With the god forms he seemed to have reached his limits, after breaking the SSG limits, with SSB being relatively the same level and requiring KK to boost it up. Then comes UI to put him in the realm of the GoDs, he makes that power his own. And then when he seems to have reached yet another plateau, he finds a way to broke those limits. We'll see what's in store for him next.

It's not just his physiology, it's his mindset, his determination, something that is unique to himself. Something Vegeta needed to imitate in order to grow like his rival, considering he spent 30 years without significant improvements: he was stronger than the king as a kid(so, 10k or above?), and 30 years later he was not even at 20k, even though his genetics were the pinnacle of saiyan biology. While Goku with his particular mindset has been leapfrogging everybody throughout his life, going from a PL of 2 to making 12 GoDs stand up in awe.

[Hugo Boss]

Half his body wasn't damaged, half his face was damaged, which is different.

At best you can argue that that attack would have scarred the whole of Black's face, which most certainly does not result in death.

Just check the scene again. His hand was the only part still intact, his face and arm were already decaying before he was hit by the “Light of Justice”. Basically it’s like vital organs exposed in an explosion. I’m not sure how anyone would survive this.

At no point does the Story ever even imply that Zamasu or Black would have died to that attack if not for immortality.

The only point of that scene is to prove that Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, hence why he can't heal the damage that his head just tanked.

You are basically contradicting simple logic, because no longer being immortal means that he now can be killed if he receives large damage. I’m not sure what his body decaying means other than him dying.

Anyway, in the manga Goku was equally matched with Merged Zamasu in that very story arc, so this ship has sailed.

[SupremeKai25]

Just check the scene again. His hand was the only part still intact, his face and arm were already decaying before he was hit by the “Light of Justice”. Basically it’s like vital organs exposed in an explosion. I’m not sure how anyone would survive this.

There's no evidence that his arm was "decaying" from Goku's attack, especially when it was shown functioning perfectly right after the blast hit him. Correlation is not causation.

There are no vital organs in the arm so your comparison doesn't make sense... none of Zamasu's vitals areas were hit except the head (which tanked it as it wasn't destroyed,unlike, say, Fat Buu blowing up Babidi's head).

You are basically contradicting simple logic, because no longer being immortal means that he now can be killed if he receives large damage

Yes, he can be killed if he suffers large damage (which is what happened to his body, but he was saved by his Immortal soul). And did he die from Goku? No. Did Goku die from throwing everything he had left at Zamasu? Yes (he pretty much died as his bones were shattered and he couldn't even get up anymore without senzu bean, he was finished).

So Fused Zamasu was superior to Goku.

As expected, from the fusion of a 1 yo older Goku with a Supreme Kai prodigy. Naturally Goku + Someone else will be stronger than just Goku.

Anyway, in the manga Goku was equally matched with Merged Zamasu in that very story arc, so this ship has sailed.

You left out crucial context. Manga Goku needed Perfected SSB to match Imperfect SSR Zamasu.

It stands to reason that a Perfected SSR Zamasu will be superior to Perfected SSB Goku.

[Hugo Boss]

There's no evidence that his arm was "decaying" from Goku's attack, especially when it was shown functioning perfectly right after the blast hit him. Correlation is not causation.

Advance a little more in the scene, his arm has the same deformation that his face has. What exactly do you think that purple blob means?

There are no vital organs in the arm so your comparison doesn't make sense... none of Zamasu's vitals areas were hit except the head (which tanked it as it wasn't destroyed,unlike, say, Fat Buu blowing up Babidi's head).

I’m obviously talking about the upper half of his body, specially his head. Stop being overly pedantic.

Yes, he can be killed if he suffers large damage (which is what happened to his body, but he was saved by his Immortal soul). And did he die from Goku? No. Did Goku die from throwing everything he had left at Zamasu? Yes (he pretty much died as his bones were shattered and he couldn't even get up anymore without senzu bean, he was finished).

“Did he die from Goku?”. Of course the answer couldn’t be anything other than “no”, because he was immortal. That’s exactly the point. No immortality, fatal damage means death. It isn’t necessary to dive too much into this.

“Did Goku die from Zamasu?” Err, no? There is no comparison between the damage Goku inflicted on Zamasu and the damage he got. Goku’s body was wrecked like in old days, but he was certainly not melting.

As expected, from the fusion of a 1 yo older Goku with a Supreme Kai prodigy. Naturally Goku + Someone else will be stronger than just Goku.

Normally that would be the case, but as the manga clearly shows us Goku can compensate even when the odds are like this. Zamasu isn’t that remarkable. He basically used the most obvious exploit to be invencible and he was still having trouble, which only proves that he is not as competent as you think he is.

You left out crucial context. Manga Goku needed Perfected SSB to match Imperfect SSR Zamasu.

It stands to reason that a Perfected SSR Zamasu will be superior to Perfected SSB Goku.

That would be true if Zamasu was capable of doing what Goku did. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t. If Zamasu was such a genius that you think he is, he would just perfect SSGSS and turn the tables on Goku again. The body which stole certainly was able to contain that power, but he lacked Goku’s control.

[SupremeKai25]

There's no evidence that his arm was "decaying" from Goku's attack, especially when it was shown functioning perfectly right after the blast hit him. Correlation is not causation.

Advance a little more in the scene, his arm has the same deformation that his face has. What exactly do you think that purple blob means?

His arm became deformed after Zamasu struck himself with his own attack.

Before that, it was only moving weirdly. It's your headcanon that it was already melting.

I’m obviously talking about the upper half of his body, specially his head. Stop being overly pedantic.

There's no evidence Goku did any damage to his torso, which is where the actual vital organs of a body are located. So No, your comparison is still wrong.

“Did he die from Goku?”. Of course the answer couldn’t be anything other than “no”, because he was immortal. That’s exactly the point. No immortality, fatal damage means death. It isn’t necessary to dive too much into this.

Literally the entire point of that scene, as I explained to you earlier, is to prove that Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, as the characters literally state on-screen, which is why half his face melted off and he then got cleaved in half by Trunks...

So Yes, if Goku was strong enough, he would have destroyed Zamasu, whose body was no longer immortal. As it so happens, not only he wasn't strong enough to do that despite pouring all he had left into that attack, he couldn't even destroy his head and only scarred half his face.

“Did Goku die from Zamasu?” Err, no? There is no comparison between the damage Goku inflicted on Zamasu and the damage he got. Goku’s body was wrecked like in old days, but he was certainly not melting.

Goku could not even get up anymore without Shin's help.

He was pretty much half-dead and would have easily been taken out by Zamasu.

Normally that would be the case, but as the manga clearly shows us Goku can compensate even when the odds are like this. Zamasu isn’t that remarkable. He basically used the most obvious exploit to be invencible and he was still having trouble, which only proves that he is not as competent as you think he is.

Even Goku disagrees with you, since he praised Apprentice Zamasu's fighting skills and believed that he could even surpass Beerus if he kept training.

Zamasu literally got the job of Supreme Kai Apprentice because he was exceptionally skilled even for a Kai, so Yes, he is remarkable compared to 99.99999% of the verse.

That would be true if Zamasu was capable of doing what Goku did. Unfortunately for him, he wasn’t. If Zamasu was such a genius that you think he is, he would just perfect SSGSS and turn the tables on Goku again. The body which stole certainly was able to contain that power, but he lacked Goku’s control.

Except that he did exactly that? In Heroes, Black evolved Rosé further and reached a level that forced Goku to fuse into Gogeta Blue.

[Hugo Boss]

His arm became deformed after Zamasu struck himself with his own attack.

Before that, it was only moving weirdly. It's your headcanon that it was already melting.

You can see that his arm was melting before he was struck by that lightning. He only advanced the process by himself and his arm got huge. Simple deduction, not headcanon. Stop acting like you has authority to say what is canon or not.

There's no evidence Goku did any damage to his torso, which is where the actual vital organs of a body are located. So No, your comparison is still wrong.

The upper half of his body was already damaged. You only see the face melting because his robe doesn’t reveal all the purple blob inside.

Literally the entire point of that scene, as I explained to you earlier, is to prove that Zamasu's body is no longer immortal, as the characters literally state on-screen, which is why half his face melted off and he then got cleaved in half by Trunks...

So Yes, if Goku was strong enough, he would have destroyed Zamasu, whose body was no longer immortal. As it so happens, not only he wasn't strong enough to do that despite pouring all he had left into that attack, he couldn't even destroy his head and only scarred half his face.

You are not describing the whole picture. Zamasu himself was still immortal, at least 50% of him was, that’s why his body didn’t immediately die, because the other half was keeping him alive. The only thing they figured out is that this ability had then a breaking point, so they had to insist on inflicting large damage until it wore off.

Goku could not even get up anymore without Shin's help.

He was pretty much half-dead and would have easily been taken out by Zamasu.

This is not relevant to what we are discussing. Goku wasn’t even half-dead, he just got back to normal and couldn’t fight anymore. Zamasu could only continue because of his semi-invulnerability.

Even Goku disagrees with you, since he praised Apprentice Zamasu's fighting skills and believed that he could even surpass Beerus if he kept training.

Zamasu literally got the job of Supreme Kai Apprentice because he was exceptionally skilled even for a Kai, so Yes, he is remarkable compared to 99.99999% of the verse.

Goku was expecting too much from Zamasu, because he just met him. It turned out that Zamasu was very weak-minded. I can’t seriously understand why someone would even respect a character that basically behaves like a child that uses the most broken stuff because he can’t beat pro players following rules.

In Heroes, Black evolved Rosé further and reached a level that forced Goku to fuse into Gogeta Blue.

Why would I care about what Heroes does, anyway? It’s a slugfest of wishful-thinking scenarios and doesn’t have any relation to the main series. Goku Black in the manga couldn’t even beat Vegeta in their own arc. It’s not surprising that Vegeta doesn’t even list him as a formidable opponent that he has to learn something from.

[Koitsukai]

I can't believe Goku died vs Zamasu lol... mainly because he did not.

Or that now absolutely non-Toriyama material is unironically used when discussing main continuity characters. I need to sit down, really.

[SupremeKai25]

You can see that his arm was melting before he was struck by that lightning. He only advanced the process by himself and his arm got huge. Simple deduction, not headcanon. Stop acting like you has authority to say what is canon or not.

Zamasu also proved earlier in the episode that he can easily crush Goku's arm and ankle, so this doesn't prove that Goku is superior to Zamasu.

The upper half of his body was already damaged. You only see the face melting because his robe doesn’t reveal all the purple blob inside.

It's your headcanon that there was "purple blob" inside, we don't see it so we cannot be sure of it.

You are not describing the whole picture. Zamasu himself was still immortal, at least 50% of him was, that’s why his body didn’t immediately die, because the other half was keeping him alive. The only thing they figured out is that this ability had then a breaking point, so they had to insist on inflicting large damage until it wore off.

You have no evidence that Zamasu would have died to Goku AND HIS OWN attack if not for immortality. Again, he didn't take any fatal blow. Half his face got scarred and that was it. That's not a fatal blow, people can survive having half their face scarred.

Goku's attack (combined with Zamasu's own attack) scarred Zamasu, but there is no evidence that he would have died from that attack if not for immortality.

Besides that, Zamasu then went on to power-up so much that he was far superior to SSB Kaioken, so Zamasu still proved that he is ahead of Goku when they are alive in the same story arc.

Narratively, Zamasu is treated as an antagonist that can be dealt with only with the aid of a Potara merged being like he is; much like Super Buu. Thus, it stands to reason that Zamasu is superior to Goku individually.

This is not relevant to what we are discussing. Goku wasn’t even half-dead, he just got back to normal and couldn’t fight anymore. Zamasu could only continue because of his semi-invulnerability.

He didn't "get back to normal", he was so exhausted and his bones were cracked so badly that he couldn't even lift his torso without Shin's help.

So Goku would have died if he didn't have senzu beans cheats (it's only after eating senzu bean that he gets up), because Zamasu would have simply finished him off with Goku being unable to do anything (he couldn't even get up).

If I'm not mistaken, the spoilers for that episode that were leaked before-hand even mention that Goku's move was "life-threatening". Either way, the episode made that clear enough with Goku's legs and limbs going limb.

The only thing that we can assuredly state is that Goku limit-breaking, life-threatening move (in conjunction with Zamasu's own attack exploding on top of him) was only able to injure Zamasu's face and somewhat his arm, which didn't regenerate due to Black's mortal body interfering with Zamasu's immortal regeneration.

And since Goku and Vegeta were left so badly-wounded from their fight with Zamasu, they were in no condition to fuse without senzu bean cheats, making them pretty much finished.

There is not enough evidence to conclude that Goku could have destroyed Fused Zamasu under any circumstance.

Goku was expecting too much from Zamasu, because he just met him. It turned out that Zamasu was very weak-minded. I can’t seriously understand why someone would even respect a character that basically behaves like a child that uses the most broken stuff because he can’t beat pro players following rules.

Doesn't DBS constantly get criticized online for its "childish" and "immature" portrayal of Goku?

The whole mess wouldn't have even started in the Anime if Goku didn't childishly challenge Zamasu to a duel (corroborated by Bulma scolding Goku for "picking yet another fight").

Maybe Zamasu became more childish after taking Goku's body.

Why would I care about what Heroes does, anyway?

Because it's presented as a sequel to the Anime/Toei Tournament of Power arc and gives us an insight into how the Toei writers view Goku Black's potential.

In Heroes, we see that the Toei writers believe that Goku Black still had much room left for evolution, as he literally squares off against Gogeta Blue (though he is easily defeated once Gogeta gets serious, he still proves that he had ample room for evolution left).

It is also the last we see of Fused Zamasu/Goku Black in any medium, so it is logical to bring it up as the latest source from which we can gouge the potential of these two antagonists.

Beyond that, Goku Black is an entity comprised of the body of an older, more experienced, more trained Goku and the soul of a Supreme Kai fighting prodigy/genius. Narratively he will always remain competitive to Goku when they are in the same story arc. He is meant to mirror Goku in every way, including potential and growth.

We have seen that first-hand when Black got a tremendous power-boost and a new form just by briefly skirmishing with Goku in the Present.

Since Fused Zamasu is the merged entity of Goku Black with a Supreme Kai fighting genius/prodigy, Fused Zamasu will typically have the upper-hand against Goku in a 1v1, whenever they are in the same story arc.

Obviously, you can't put Fused Zamasu or Goku Black against the most recent version of Goku, because they have been dead for months/years in-universe and have inevitably been left in the dust.

Whenever they are in the same story arc, there is no evidence that Goku ever fully/completely surpasses Black/Zamasu. He might get the edge at certain points, but never leave them in the dust.

[Hugo Boss]

It's your headcanon that there was "purple blob" inside, we don't see it so we cannot be sure of it.
(…)
That's not a fatal blow, people can survive having half their face scarred.

Just do a fact checking before making these responses, please.

Besides that, Zamasu then went on to power-up so much that he was far superior to SSB Kaioken, so Zamasu still proved that he is ahead of Goku when they are alive in the same story arc.

Zamasu used his invulnerability to abuse Goku Black trait of getting stronger, since his Goku Black part won’t die until his invulnerability reaches its limit, which he apparently doesn’t believe is a thing until it’s showed otherwise. This is not relevant to the comparison between Goku and Goku Black, since Black has the other Zamasu aiding him on this aspect.

Narratively, Zamasu is treated as an antagonist that can be dealt with only with the aid of a Potara merged being like he is; much like Super Buu. Thus, it stands to reason that Zamasu is superior to Goku individually.

Merged Zamasu, yes. Goku Black, not. And this is only in the anime, since Merged Zamasu was evenly matched with Goku in the manga.

So Goku would have died if he didn't have senzu beans cheats (it's only after eating senzu bean that he gets up), because Zamasu would have simply finished him off with Goku being unable to do anything (he couldn't even get up).
(…)
There is not enough evidence to conclude that Goku could have destroyed Fused Zamasu under any circumstance.

That’s not what we are debating though? The debate is if Goku could have defeated Goku Black on 1 vs. 1. It’s odd that you think senzu beans are cheat when Zamasu abuses zenkais. This arc is so bad because the methods used by both sides were over the top. Goku only won in the end because he stopped caring about being fair when his opponent was not. Pressing the Zeno button was the icing on the cake.

Doesn't DBS constantly get criticized online for its "childish" and "immature" portrayal of Goku?

Not seeing the relevance in discussing this here, but from my perspective Toei Goku is cartoony, just that. Zamasu in another hand tries to look like he knows better than anyone, but in reality he is just a person who hasn’t grown in mentality and twists himself in his own delusions. Goku is always striving to be better and trying to learn something new in what he is already very good. That’s a sign of maturity. Implying Zamasu is more mature than Goku is a joke.

(…) gives us an insight into how the Toei writers view Goku Black's potential.

Thankfully that nonsense only happens in Heroes, where the sky is the limit. Goku Black limit was very clear in the original story. He can be killed by Goku in the anime and can be killed by Vegeta in the manga.

[SupremeKai25]

It's your headcanon that there was "purple blob" inside, we don't see it so we cannot be sure of it.
(…)
That's not a fatal blow, people can survive having half their face scarred.

Just do a fact checking before making these responses, please.

You said "the upper half of his body (aka his torso with vital organs because I was talking about that) was damaged with blob", the blob in that pic concerns only his right arm. So No, you did not prove his vital organs were damaged at all.

Goku's attack was not fatal. Even if Zamasu did not have any kind of immortality or regeneration hax, he still would have survived that attack, albeit with major damage to his arm and face.

There is also the fact that Zamasu was hit by his own attack exploding on top of him too. It wasn't just Goku's attack that hit him, it was Goku's attack + Zamasu's own attack getting pushed back at him.

We don't know if Goku's attack alone would have done that much damage to Zamasu's face.

Zamasu used his invulnerability to abuse Goku Black trait of getting stronger, since his Goku Black part won’t die until his invulnerability reaches its limit, which he apparently doesn’t believe is a thing until it’s showed otherwise. This is not relevant to the comparison between Goku and Goku Black, since Black has the other Zamasu aiding him on this aspect.

Why does it matter if he "abuses his invulnerability"? He still got much stronger than SSB Kaioken.
In the Anime, there is no evidence Black needed Zamasu's help to get stronger.

And let's not act like Goku is a 100% honest fighter who doesn't take any cheats or shortcuts, because the very concept of the Hyperbolic time chamber is a cheat/shortcut as the latest arc with Black Frieza proved, as are senzu beans (literal cheat code not too different from Immortality).

So it's not like Goku is this honest and pure fighter who never cheats or abuses some kind of gimmick to get stronger.

Zamasu wished for Immortality and abused it to get stronger. He still got to that level of strength and so it will be taken into account when comparing him to Goku.

Merged Zamasu, yes. Goku Black, not. And this is only in the anime, since Merged Zamasu was evenly matched with Goku in the manga.

According to Toei, who wrote both the Super anime and the SDBH Anime, Goku Black can potentially reach a level that forces Goku and Vegeta to merge into Gogeta Blue.

In the Manga, Goku needed Perfected SSB to match Fused Zamasu's Imperfect SSR. Since Zamasu's SSR is his own version of SSB, Zamasu could have potentially perfected SSR, at which point he would be superior to Goku.

The debate is if Goku could have defeated Goku Black on 1 vs. 1.

If your whole argument is that "Fused Zamasu is not that much stronger than Goku" (as it seems to be, and as it was in Toriyama's original concept), then you should also acknowledge that he is not that much stronger than Black, since you will agree that Black is generally portrayed as in the same league as Goku (not necessarily stronger at a given point, just in the same league); so, if Fused Zamasu (who is not that much stronger than Goku/Black according to your argument) can match Goku, then Black also has a reasonably-high chance to match Goku.

It’s odd that you think senzu beans are cheat when Zamasu abuses zenkais. This arc is so bad because the methods used by both sides were over the top. Goku only won in the end because he stopped caring about being fair when his opponent was not. Pressing the Zeno button was the icing on the cake.

I actually don't care if Goku cheats (which he does, because if immortality/regeneration is cheating, then so are senzu beans...), but you keep mentioning how Zamasu/Black cheated as if that diminishes his strength... Why is that relevant?

The fact that Zamasu cheated to get to that level of power doesn't change the fact that he got that powerful.

Not seeing the relevance in discussing this here, but from my perspective Toei Goku is cartoony, just that. Zamasu in another hand tries to look like he knows better than anyone, but in reality he is just a person who hasn’t grown in mentality and twists himself in his own delusions. Goku is always striving to be better and trying to learn something new in what he is already very good. That’s a sign of maturity. Implying Zamasu is more mature than Goku is a joke.

You're the one who mentioned how Zamasu is "childish" so you tell me how that's relevant to bring up.

Thankfully that nonsense only happens in Heroes, where the sky is the limit. Goku Black limit was very clear in the original story. He can be killed by Goku in the anime and can be killed by Vegeta in the manga.

None of this is "very clear" at all.

To begin with, in strictly the DBS Anime, we don't know how much stronger Black could have gotten by himself. He certainly had plans to get stronger by making Goku and Vegeta angrier (his whole strategy since the start), but he was convinced by Zamasu to fuse. Still, the fact that Black was confident he could still grow stronger is at least one point of evidence that shows us Black did not reach his limit yet.

In the DBS Manga, we also don't know how much stronger Black could have gotten if he was healed yet again by Zamasu. He didn't get the opportunity because Goku and Vegeta were going to 1v2 Black and end him. Still, there's no evidence Black was at his limit and Zamasu couldn't just heal him to trigger another Zenkai if they had the opportunity.

After all, Black is still Goku's body. Since Goku grew so much in strength since FT arc, it is reasonable to assume that Black (who has Goku's body) was nowhere near his limit.

Lastly, weren't Goku and Vegeta also nearly killed by Black?




Evidently, Goku and Vegeta were not at their limit then, despite almost being killed by Black.

So why Black should be at his limit just because he could have allegedly been killed by Goku? Clearly almost being killed by Black did not stop Goku and Vegeta from getting stronger, so the same should be true for Black, No?

[Hugo Boss]

You said "the upper half of his body (aka his torso with vital organs because I was talking about that) was damaged with blob", the blob in that pic concerns only his right arm. So No, you did not prove his vital organs were damaged at all.

It’s not possible to give you an image of naked Zamasu to show every part that became purple, but since he was totally engulfed by the explosion and his face was simetrically drawn half intact half melting, then it’s implied at least his face would melt.

Goku's attack was not fatal. Even if Zamasu did not have any kind of immortality or regeneration hax, he still would have survived that attack, albeit with major damage to his arm and face.

Goku Black had tanked a fair share of heavy blasts before and he never looked that bad. Thinking he would survive having the upper half of his body melted is a stretch, unless we are considering Bio Broly a good reference..

There is also the fact that Zamasu was ihit by his own attack exploding on top of him too. It wasn't just Goku's attack that hit him, it was Goku's attack + Zamasu's own attack getting pushed back at him.

We don't know if Goku's attack alone would have done that much damage to Zamasu's face.

Merged Zamasu had greater durability, so this doesn’t change the outcome being one way or the other. Goku just proved that he could use a blast stronger than Goku Black’s and one that Goku Black wouldn’t leave unscathed. Good luck getting stronger without the other Zamasu durability.

Why does it matter if he "abuses his invulnerability"? He still got much stronger than SSB Kaioken.
In the Anime, there is no evidence Black needed Zamasu's help to get stronger.

Goku Black can’t zenkai above SSB Kaioken if he dies. He can only be struck by that purple lightning and survive because of the other Zamasu’s invencibility.
They were aiding themselves during fusion.

And let's not act like Goku is a 100% honest fighter who doesn't take any cheats or shortcuts, because the very concept of the Hyperbolic time chamber is a cheat/shortcut as the latest arc with Black Frieza proved, as are senzu beans (literal cheat code not too different from Immortality).

Is this seriously an argument? Training in those dimensions require a considerable amount of endurance to just be there, not to mention sacrificing years of their life. What effort requires wishing to be invencible or having the strongest body? Do better.

Zamasu wished for Immortality and abused it to get stronger. He still got to that level of strength and so it will be taken into account when comparing him to Goku.

Just do a mental exercise. If Goku wished the same thing, how far do you think Zamasu would go against him?

According to Toei, who wrote both the Super anime and the SDBH Anime, Goku Black can potentially reach a level that forces Goku and Vegeta to merge into Gogeta Blue.

Heroes is just a promotional anime to an arcade game. It takes liberties that aren’t present in the original material. There is nothing to take from there to this discussion.

So why Black should be at his limit just because he could have allegedly been killed by Goku? Clearly almost being killed by Black did not stop Goku and Vegeta from getting stronger, so the same should be true for Black, No?

I’m not the one who is saying this, it’s Merged Zamasu’s body. Goku and Vegeta have lost countless times to Goku Black and he also became countless times stronger than them, but in the final round, Goku and Vegeta showed that they had finally surpassed Goku Black when they went all out.

In the anime, it requires too much of a stretch to think Black, after having his head melted, could pull the same trick without a semi-indestructible body. He isn’t Freeza who can survive that kind of damage.

In the manga, nothing was stopping the Future Zamasu to heal Black again to surpass Vegeta. He never considered the possibility of getting stronger, instead called for fusion.

By the way, I think this is enough. I have clearly stated my position and I’m not hoping that you change yours. If you didn’t change your approach after having your old account banned, Sir. Merged Zamasu, I don’t think you will change now.

[SupremeKai25]

Goku Black had tanked a fair share of heavy blasts before and he never looked that bad. Thinking he would survive having the upper half of his body melted is a stretch, unless we are considering Bio Broly a good reference..

It was a full-power, potentially life-threatening move that Goku pulled as a last desperate attempt to win.
It is unlikely that Goku would pull that same risky move against Black. If he was forced to pull that same move against Black, it would speak very highly of Black's strength.

Narratively, that move is meant to be seen as a last desperate resort and not something that Goku would use in a "normal" fight, so to say. His arms and legs even went limb from overexerting his body.

Merged Zamasu had greater durability, so this doesn’t change the outcome being one way or the other. Goku just proved that he could use a blast stronger than Goku Black’s and one that Goku Black wouldn’t leave unscathed. Good luck getting stronger without the other Zamasu durability.

"Good luck getting stronger without the other Zamasu durability"

It's literally what Black has been doing for 1 year. In the Anime arc, he straight up did not even need any help from Zamasu. He just got stronger by fighting and getting pummelled. He went from SS2 level to SSB level after one fight. He went from weaker than Vegeta to able to 1v2 the Saiyans with his clones after one fight. He is definitely able to evolve by himself, without the need of Zamasu (at least in the Anime, where he doesn't rely on Zamasu healing).

Black was certainly confident that he could get even stronger shortly before fusing.

It is still Goku's body, so it should logically have the same potential as Goku's, although severely handicapped by the fact that Zamasu is not Goku and doesn't think like him. Nevertheless, through rigorous fighting and training, Zamasu is shown capable of keeping up with the real Goku and even surpass him at times.

Is this seriously an argument? Training in those dimensions require a considerable amount of endurance to just be there, not to mention sacrificing years of their life. What effort requires wishing to be invencible or having the strongest body? Do better.

Getting used to fighting in someone else's body is evidently not that effortless as you claim, since Black took one year just to understand how to use his version of SSB and was shown training off-screen to get more used to Goku's body and movements.

So piloting someone else's body, no matter how strong it is, still requires a significant amount of effort, as we saw with Black needing to constantly fight against Trunks for 1 year to learn how to better use his new body.

In a way, the shortcut/cheat also placed an handicap on Zamasu. He instantly got the body of one of the strongest mortals, but he did not instantly get access to all of his techniques and power. So he had to gradually unlock them by fighting/training.

Just do a mental exercise. If Goku wished the same thing, how far do you think Zamasu would go against him?

Not very far, because both Black and Fused Zamasu never had full immortality.

The whole point of Zenkai boosts is that you get stronger through struggling in a fight or suffering damage physically. Immortality effectively negates all of that, because you can't suffer damage physically, and you never struggle, because literally nothing can harm you.

Neither Black nor Fused Zamasu had full immortality, so they were able to get stronger by getting damaged physically/struggling.

If Goku or any other Saiyan wished for immortality, they would only be able to get stronger through training, and would no longer benefit from any kind of Zenkai boost (which is the strongest benefit of being a Saiyan).

This is explored more in a conversation between Black and Zamasu, where Zamasu tells Black that they should make him immortal too, and Black scoffs at the idea, telling him that he already has "all the power he needs" and that he will "get even stronger" (which he did, by making Goku angrier and then getting beat up by him).

Immortality is a wish you make if you never want to die. It is not a wish you make if you want to be the strongest. Goku wishing for immortality like (Future) Zamasu did would not be impactful as far as his actual power growth/evolution is concerned.

Heroes is just a promotional anime to an arcade game. It takes liberties that aren’t present in the original material. There is nothing to take from there to this discussion.

I disagree. It is interesting to see how Toei brought back Goku Black and gave him his own unique evolution route involving Super Saiyan Rosé, which brought him to confront Gogeta Blue himself.

In the manga, nothing was stopping the Future Zamasu to heal Black again to surpass Vegeta. He never considered the possibility of getting stronger, instead called for fusion.

Goku and Vegeta were right there and wouldn't give them the chance to do it again.