Have any of your Dragon Ball fanfictions (or part thereof) became a reality?

[Ronin]

About the original quesiton on this post: There are rumors that the SSJ Rose is based on a fanart from early 2000s, similar to the case of "El Gohan Blanco" (the white gohan in spanish) as someone had made fanarts of Gohan having a white hair mystic transformation. All of these, Deviantart chronicles.

It's definitely a shorter list to name the ideas used in DBS that haven't been seen in fanfiction before. I think the nature of revivals makes them similar to how fanfiction is written because they have fans who grew up with the original series working on them now like what happened with a few other franchises. Even if the staff never read any fanwork they're going to end up with similar ideas because that's probably what they came up as young fans like favorite characters they want to see return especially if they haven't been relevant in the story for a long time or a what if they thought was cool.

I think that's a great point; there's a whole new generation of people working on DB now who grew up as fans.

There's also the fact of how much ground the original story already covered anyway, together with the fact of how much time there was between its conclusion and the beginning of the revival. As I've asked elsewhere before, what can the story do that's not going to in some way resemble something that either it, or fans of it, have cooked up over the last 40 years? We have threads talking about how the series is stuck in the past, and we have threads talking about how the series uses stuff from fanfiction.

At this point in time, if we got transformations that were a lot more elaborate with a bunch of small details added to them, and a super self-serious storyline, that would also feel like fanfiction. Nobody complaining that "these recolors feel like fanart/fanfiction" should be happy if new forms started sporting tattoos or spikes, either, because that's also fanart. So is simply having longer hair. So is simply "no more transformations". Because this stuff's been around long enough that there are few, if any, ideas left untouched.

This is exactly how I feel. And on top of all the fanfictions, a lot of fans have spent a lot of time (myself included) speculating on what a new arc would be like too; which I feel like adds to the same line of thinking as saying "everything new in Dragon Ball feels like fanfiction".

[Skar]

Definitely. Just because practically everything under the sun has been done by fanart/fanfiction doesn't mean that it's automatically good when done officially. My issue is whenever "this is like fanart/fanfiction" is used as a reason itself for some new official design or plot being "bad". Given the sheer breadth of what fanart/fanfiction has done, "this is like fanart/fanfiction" is rendered a practically meaningless observation. That is different, of course, from observing that some particular design or plot point being like some specific piece of fanart/fanfiction (such as the many examples given in this thread).

Usually when that was pointed out it meant "this was never considered good in any fanart or fanfiction" and not about every idea that has been done before. There have always been some ideas that fans wouldn't mind seeing done officially and others that they're glad were only fanfiction. For the ones that were never considered good now is the first time they've received any kind of praise.

That would be fine if it's from someone who had a consistent opinion about those ideas when they were done by fans or now by Toriyama but I don't think that was the case. For example, SSJ Blue was the first time I've seen someone defend a recolored SSJ by bashing the original SSJ. I can't imagine any fan getting away with saying "Yeah I only changed the color but Toriyama only did that when Vegeta went SSJ so that means my idea is creative too". Usually it was because they couldn't draw so changing the hair in MSpaint was the only way to differentiate it.

Another example there were countless Saiyan OCs and having them reach multiple transformations easier than Goku and Vegeta was considered lazy. I've never seen anyone argue "but Goten and Trunks cheapened SSJ so cheapening the next forms even more is a great idea". It was usually the opposite and an idea that was already taken too far should be avoided since doing it again wouldn't be any less bad and not an excuse to take it a more ridiculous extreme. I think that was the most common argument for a time "something kinda similar happened before so any extreme is acceptable now" which was almost exclusively for recent ideas from Toriyama and not the ones revealed to be by Toei or Toyotaro.

[funrush]

My childhood idea of Goku using Kaio Ken AND Super Saiyan finally happened during the U6 tournament arc in Super.

[Zephyr]

Man, I didn't mean for this post to get so long, I'm sorry.

Usually when that was pointed out it meant "this was never considered good in any fanart or fanfiction" and not about every idea that has been done before. There have always been some ideas that fans wouldn't mind seeing done officially and others that they're glad were only fanfiction. For the ones that were never considered good now is the first time they've received any kind of praise.

That would be fine if it's from someone who had a consistent opinion about those ideas when they were done by fans or now by Toriyama but I don't think that was the case. For example, SSJ Blue was the first time I've seen someone defend a recolored SSJ by bashing the original SSJ. I can't imagine any fan getting away with saying "Yeah I only changed the color but Toriyama only did that when Vegeta went SSJ so that means my idea is creative too". Usually it was because they couldn't draw so changing the hair in MSpaint was the only way to differentiate it.

Another example there were countless Saiyan OCs and having them reach multiple transformations easier than Goku and Vegeta was considered lazy. I've never seen anyone argue "but Goten and Trunks cheapened SSJ so cheapening the next forms even more is a great idea". It was usually the opposite and an idea that was already taken too far should be avoided since doing it again wouldn't be any less bad and not an excuse to take it a more ridiculous extreme. I think that was the most common argument for a time "something kinda similar happened before so any extreme is acceptable now" which was almost exclusively for recent ideas from Toriyama and not the ones revealed to be by Toei or Toyotaro.

I think fandom was and is more varied than that. Some people may have been always balking at the idea of recoloring, and others may have always been fine with it. I know I remember when people in the Battle of Gods thread were salivating over salvamakoto's "Super Saiyan 4 but gold" idea.

I don't think "Toriyama only changed the color of Vegeta's hair when he went Super Saiyan" was deployed to suggest that their MS Paint recolor was "also creative", but rather to say that Toriyama's recoloring of Vegeta's hair was not terribly creative. And, like, it wasn't. But that's okay.

Different people are going to find different things creative, and creativity will always be a matter of degree rather than something binary. Changing hair color does involve some creativity, as there is a creative decision to be made about what color the hair is changed to. There's less change happening there than if the shape was also changed, so we could say that it took less creativity than if they also changed the hair's shape. But I don't think "there is thus an absence of creativity" is an accurate way to frame that.

But the salvamakoto example does raise a question: he pretty much just changed the color of the hair and fur, but he also drew it himself rather than taking a paint bucket fill tool to an existing image. There's less creativity involved in conceptualizing the form's design (than, say, one which has a bunch of spikes protruding from the body, or one that has tattoos, or the one that has a really long random spike of hair sticking out, etc.), but in execution there's more creativity involved than simply changing the color of an existing image, he had to do his own line work for a new pose and everything.

As for comparing the MS Paint Recolors to things like God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Black Freeza, Orange Piccolo, and Beast Gohan, it's not fully apt either. Many of those change the aura, many of those change the physique, some change the hair length or shape, and some add a plethora of smaller details. Rose and Black Freeza are the least creative ones there, because they're recoloring something already on that list. Regardless, you can't get Rose or Black Freeza just by taking a Fill Tool to a picture of Super Saiyan 1 or 4th form Freeza without missing the former's aura or the latter's minor details.

Either way, are these creative? Well, some sort of creative decisions were made in conceptualizing them. We could say they're scarcely (if at all) more creative than salvamakoto's "Super Saiyan 4 but gold" (which to its credit also incorporated a bit more of Goku's base hair into its design, as well as Goku's shirt for one drawing), because the changes aren't as drastic as Super Saiyan 3 or 4. But just like in salvamakoto's drawing, these were drawn anew rather than recoloring existing art (Toriyama's Ultra Instinct concept art specifically notwithstanding lol). So, there is some creative process involved, but they're less transformative on the whole than some of the original run's most drastic changes.

As for "I bashed this before when fans did it, but now that Toriyama-sensei has done it it's okay!", I definitely see where you're coming from. That's a fair point. At the same time though, people are also always constantly growing and changing their minds on things. I think it's fine to look back and reevaluate one's past opinions in light of new things. Sometimes it is appropriate to ask, "were we giving Toriyama too much of a pass or too much credit back then in order to dunk on some designs or writing decisions?" It's fine if your answer to that question is ultimately "no, we were not". But I also don't think people are being hypocrites or sycophants if their answer to that question is "you know, actually yeah, I guess so".

[Skar]

As for comparing the MS Paint Recolors to things like God, Blue, Golden Freeza, Rose, Ultra Instinct, Ultra Ego, Black Freeza, Orange Piccolo, and Beast Gohan, it's not fully apt either. Many of those change the aura, many of those change the physique, some change the hair length or shape, and some add a plethora of smaller details. Rose and Black Freeza are the least creative ones there, because they're recoloring something already on that list. Regardless, you can't get Rose or Black Freeza just by taking a Fill Tool to a picture of Super Saiyan 1 or 4th form Freeza without missing the former's aura or the latter's minor details.

I didn't mean all the transformations. There's a difference between a simple transformation with some physical changes and only changing the hair color. There was an old opinion that the series had too many transformations by the end and more of the same in a sequel is only adding to that already long list. The majority of fanmade transformations are random fanart and most of the time not associated with a story or one that many fans recommend. Most sequel fanfics either have only one new transformation or none at that. Even Toei limited GT to one new SSJ transformation. If DBS had fewer transformations, I don't think anyone would argue that there should've been several more. For example, I find it hard to believe someone has ever looked at fanart like this and thought this would be a worthwhile addition to the official series.

As for "I bashed this before when fans did it, but now that Toriyama-sensei has done it it's okay!", I definitely see where you're coming from. That's a fair point. At the same time though, people are also always constantly growing and changing their minds on things. I think it's fine to look back and reevaluate one's past opinions in light of new things. Sometimes it is appropriate to ask, "were we giving Toriyama too much of a pass or too much credit back then in order to dunk on some designs or writing decisions?" It's fine if your answer to that question is ultimately "no, we were not". But I also don't think people are being hypocrites or sycophants if their answer to that question is "you know, actually yeah, I guess so".

It does feel like the reevaluation only happened due to these specific ideas becoming official since fanfiction is still treated the same way it always has. There are still ongoing and new fanfics and occasionally get criticism for something similar but less extreme than what the official series has done now. When opinions changed after finding out an idea was by Toei or Toyotaro, it doesn't feel the idea itself is being reevaluated and it's only based on who was behind it. Of course, there are fans who genuinely like these and have honest opinions. I would say it's a minority of fans who do what I mentioned and it has died down now but it did definitely standout when it happened.

[Caulifor]

Many years ago I wrote a fanfiction called "Dragon Ball AZ" as in "After Z" (yes, very creative) on a Brazilian Dragon Ball forum. The very first arc was... the resurrection of Freeza, who after deciding to train for the first time in his life achieved a brand-new transformation that could only be defeated with a new Super Saiyan form. Crazy how that story is both cringe and very close to actual official material nowadays

Sure, many details were different. Cell also returned and he and Freeza fused, becoming Freezell Oh man, that fanfic was so bad. But to think both Freeza and Cell (kinda) returned in Dragon Ball Super is crazy to me. Goes to show how the franchise is so stuck in the past, it's resembling a teenager fan fever-dream.

[Zephyr]

There was an old opinion that the series had too many transformations by the end and more of the same in a sequel is only adding to that already long list. The majority of fanmade transformations are random fanart and most of the time not associated with a story or one that many fans recommend. Most sequel fanfics either have only one new transformation or none at that. Even Toei limited GT to one new SSJ transformation. If DBS had fewer transformations, I don't think anyone would argue that there should've been several more. For example, I find it hard to believe someone has ever looked at fanart like this and thought this would be a worthwhile addition to the official series.

That's not an opinion that's gone away, either. It's still pretty common to see people complain about the amount of transformations. And that's fine. Personally, I'm not really bothered by it. DBS could have had more, it could have had less, and I'd be pretty neutral about it. Transformations are a long-established staple of Dragon Ball at this point and that's never going away. And the way those transformations look is also something I've been largely neutral on; change a lot, change a little, I don't care about that as much as how does it actually look after all is said and done?

As for GT, that also added the Golden Ozaru, and did some other things, like having Vegeta's hair change color when possessed by Baby, giving Gogeta a different hair color, and going out of its way to designate things like "Full Power Super Saiyan 4" and "Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4" in the Baby and Evil Dragons arcs, respectively, when the other Saiyans helped power Goku up. I don't know if one would or should count any of these as "their own forms", but they are kind of strange and at least worth mentioning when talking about GT, transformations, recolors, and creativity.

As for that fanart, I'm also not sure if anyone thought it would be a worthwhile addition to the official series, the artist included. Looking at the description, it's a recolor of a piece of fanart, not "new transformation design ideas"; even the clothes and Goku's halo got new colors. Regardless, it's one thing to judge something based on a DeviantArt submission and and another to judge something that's been integrated into a script and animated. As one example, seeing the way Rose looks on Black, in that outfit, with that personality, as voiced by Nozawa in that particular way she performs the role, it works and it helps add to the whole of the way the character is depicted. In a way that simply looking at this picture is obviously not going to. I know it's the "ideas vs. execution" cliche, but that's one of those things that becomes a cliche for a reason. Looking at the fanart there does nothing for me, but seeing Rose in action in Super sells me on it.

It does feel like the reevaluation only happened due to these specific ideas becoming official since fanfiction is still treated the same way it always has. There are still ongoing and new fanfics and occasionally get criticism for something similar but less extreme than what the official series has done now. When opinions changed after finding out an idea was by Toei or Toyotaro, it doesn't feel the idea itself is being reevaluated and it's only based on who was behind it. Of course, there are fans who genuinely like these and have honest opinions. I would say it's a minority of fans who do what I mentioned and it has died down now but it did definitely standout when it happened.

I don't think that's terribly scandalous, though. It makes sense to me that something "becoming" official is what prompts the reevaluation, and especially when finding out that Toriyama was the one who decided to do it. If someone is scoffing at a sort of design or idea, it's easy to fall back on "this would never show up officially" or "Toriyama wouldn't write this", but when they can't fall back on that anymore there's never a more likely time for someone to consider "am I just being too much of a stickler here?" Of course, someone can do a reevaluation without something being made official, and someone can do that reevaluation and come out the other side with the same opinion they had before (ie: "nah, I'm definitely not just being a stickler, the rights holders and original creator have lost the plot").

But I think it's pretty natural to have something happening officially (and with involvement from the original creator) being the cause of someone's reevaluation of what can and cannot count for a worthwhile addition, because it's at that point that there is a certain pressure to accept that things are simply like that now going forward. And, of course, one doesn't have to cave to that "pressure", they can stop following new material, or retreating into the original run, etc. But my point is that [something I once thought was too out of place to happen officially and from the original author] actually happening officially and from the original author is definitely going to make me ask "was that actually as out of place as I thought?" regardless of how I answer that question.

That is to say nothing of how mixed the reception can be on this new stuff, regardless of who made it. Most people hate Bardock's depiction in Minus and that was known from moment one to be Toriyama. I don't know of anybody upset about Vegetto showing up against Zamasu, even after learning that it was Toyble's idea. It's hard to guess what opinions are held by a majority and what opinions are held by a minority, and it's hard to know who is and is not being genuine.

[Dbzfan94]

I drew a comic with Freeza being revived with a new ultimate form when i was young. (Along with Super Buu, for some reason) lmao. So that half happened.

And while not a fanfic, I pretty much called all the major beats of the Goku Black saga (minus Zeno) from the moment they showed that initial teaser poster.

[Skar]

As for GT, that also added the Golden Ozaru, and did some other things, like having Vegeta's hair change color when possessed by Baby, giving Gogeta a different hair color, and going out of its way to designate things like "Full Power Super Saiyan 4" and "Ultra Full Power Super Saiyan 4" in the Baby and Evil Dragons arcs, respectively, when the other Saiyans helped power Goku up. I don't know if one would or should count any of these as "their own forms", but they are kind of strange and at least worth mentioning when talking about GT, transformations, recolors, and creativity.

I'm not sure why Gogeta had a different hair color but the others were just SSJ4 Goku with extra energy and didn't really look different. They had Nova Shenron transforming and only changed his color which I don't think was ever considered subversive or benefited from a reevaluation now.

I can understand being neutral towards them but it comes down personal preference how many times a franchise could repeat the same concept before it loses its impact and suffers diminishing returns. That applies to every franchise. I'm sure even the fans who imply something similar happened before in DB so fans should accept the concept taken to any extreme wouldn't make that argument for every series they've followed and still drawing the line somewhere. All it is willing to consider that some people have that opinion about this specific series.

I don't think that's terribly scandalous, though. It makes sense to me that something "becoming" official is what prompts the reevaluation, and especially when finding out that Toriyama was the one who decided to do it. If someone is scoffing at a sort of design or idea, it's easy to fall back on "this would never show up officially" or "Toriyama wouldn't write this", but when they can't fall back on that anymore there's never a more likely time for someone to consider "am I just being too much of a stickler here?" Of course, someone can do a reevaluation without something being made official, and someone can do that reevaluation and come out the other side with the same opinion they had before (ie: "nah, I'm definitely not just being a stickler, the rights holders and original creator have lost the plot").

That's fine because you're considering both views could be valid which usually isn't the case. The way you're describing it at least acknowledges that there weren't that many positive opinions about these ideas before and now have changed specifically due to Toriyama deciding to use them. If it wasn't clear I have absolutely nothing against fans liking these ideas now or even before. That's different than trying to discredit anyone who are only pointing out they have kept the same opinion of these ideas. Fanfiction is usually a niche audience within an overall fan base and the majority of fans are only interested in what's official. This is a DB forum with an extensive fanworks section so it's going to be a place where people have read fanfiction and would compare it to latest official story. Disagreeing that it doesn't apply to them is fine but trying to discredit it doesn't really work when there's an entire section showing old and current reactions to similar ideas.

I think it's still valid to question whether he would've used these ideas before. An author revisiting their series decades after completing it usually writes it in a way or make changes that they wouldn't have in the original based on what could've influenced them since then and the new people they're working with. When I talked revivals having similar ideas to fanfiction, I meant that they focus more on the type of fan service and "wish fulfillment" ideas that original didn't cared to explore. Some of these are the first ideas that would come to mind so I think if any author is willing to use them decades later then it's likely that they just changed their minds about those types of ideas.

[Zephyr]

I can understand being neutral towards them but it comes down personal preference how many times a franchise could repeat the same concept before it loses its impact and suffers diminishing returns. That applies to every franchise. I'm sure even the fans who imply something similar happened before in DB so fans should accept the concept taken to any extreme wouldn't make that argument for every series they've followed and still drawing the line somewhere.

Yeah, everyone's gonna have a different point where they draw the line, and why that's the place where the line is drawn. From my perspective, it's often unclear (either due to murky reasoning, or to reasoning which has gone entirely unstated) why someone is drawing a line at the specific spot where they're drawing it. Sometimes it takes the form of an unacknowledged and undue reverence for the original run, where some issue is had with a contemporary plot point on the grounds that something that inconsistent wouldn't have happened in the original run, as if it didn't have its share of inconsistencies which have simply had the benefit of a decade+'s worth of discourse to make sense of and an interpretation developed such that it "makes sense".

Obviously that's not the case all the time. Plenty of people take the original run to task for its various faults.

If it wasn't clear I have absolutely nothing against fans liking these ideas now or even before. That's different than trying to discredit anyone who are only pointing out they have kept the same opinion of these ideas. Fanfiction is usually a niche audience within an overall fan base and the majority of fans are only interested in what's official. This is a DB forum with an extensive fanworks section so it's going to be a place where people have read fanfiction and would compare it to latest official story. Disagreeing that it doesn't apply to them is fine but trying to discredit it doesn't really work when there's an entire section showing old and current reactions to similar ideas.

I should also be clear that I'm not intending to say that "this kind of thing was done in this fanfiction before; it was bad there for this reason, and it is bad here for the same reason" isn't a valid view to have and to voice. It absolutely is, full respect there. The thing I was ragging on initially is the more reductive and lazy dunk that you'll sometimes see, to the effect that "this is like fanfiction", without any additional qualifications or specifications as to what fanfiction it is like, why that is bad, etc. Two very different approaches to critiquing official material, which may possibly be coming from the same place, but even so are articulated with different amounts of adequacy: the former, a reasonable critique, the latter a drive-by comment. The latter thankfully doesn't seem to be as common as it once was, at least not around here.

I think it's still valid to question whether he would've used these ideas before. An author revisiting their series decades after completing it usually writes it in a way or make changes that they wouldn't have in the original based on what could've influenced them since then and the new people they're working with. When I talked revivals having similar ideas to fanfiction, I meant that they focus more on the type of fan service and "wish fulfillment" ideas that original didn't cared to explore. Some of these are the first ideas that would come to mind so I think if any author is willing to use them decades later then it's likely that they just changed their minds about those types of ideas.

That's a good point, and one worth keeping in mind when looking at any work continuing long after it had ended or gone on hiatus. With enough time apart from the work, the original author is going to have the chance to develop a sort of reverence for the old work that they wouldn't have otherwise had while in the thick of things working on it. So, in a way, they too become a "fan" of it. So it's definitely worth asking "would they have done this back then?", because the answer is almost probably "no". They're in a completely different headspace. If Toriyama hadn't decided to end the manga in 1995, there's probably a 0% chance we'd have seen things like Beerus, Golden Freeza, Goku Black, and Ultra Instinct following Boo. Ignoring the obvious point that Maximum the Hormone, for example, wasn't a thing yet, Toriyama was just in a completely different place in his life then, with a completely different relationship to the work.

The way I read the Boo arc, it comes across from very early on that this was intended to be the manga's last story. If that read is correct, then, had Toriyama been continuing the manga past 1995, even the Boo arc as we know it would probably have been radically different. And, whether it was radically different or not, whatever would have come after would have been penned by a Toriyama who was even more thoroughly burnt out on working on it (unless, I guess, we want to think about ways in which he could keep working on Dragon Ball after 1995, and if that way relies on him not being as burnt out by then, somehow). The Toriyama who gave Beerus and Super Saiyan God the designs that he did, who brought Freeza back and designed his Golden Form, who was inspired by Kamen Rider Black when designing Goku Black, etc. was certainly not burnt out from drawing a weekly manga.

There is also the editorial angle to consider. How much of the "fanservice" that we see the result of Toriyama having taken on a newfound reverence for Dragon Ball, and how much is Iyoku and the Dragon Ball Room pushing for it? It was Toriyama who was inspired to bring back Freeza, but things like Future Trunks and Broli were suggested to him. It's obviously a mix there

[Skar]

Yeah, everyone's gonna have a different point where they draw the line, and why that's the place where the line is drawn. From my perspective, it's often unclear (either due to murky reasoning, or to reasoning which has gone entirely unstated) why someone is drawing a line at the specific spot where they're drawing it. Sometimes it takes the form of an unacknowledged and undue reverence for the original run, where some issue is had with a contemporary plot point on the grounds that something that inconsistent wouldn't have happened in the original run, as if it didn't have its share of inconsistencies which have simply had the benefit of a decade+'s worth of discourse to make sense of and an interpretation developed such that it "makes sense".

Obviously that's not the case all the time. Plenty of people take the original run to task for its various faults.

I think that could apply more to casual fans who haven't thought about or discussed the series as much since watching the original. This is a fan forum which are known to go into a in-depth discussion of almost very possible detail. There are countless threads about the shortcomings, changes that Toriyama could've been made, if it should've ended sooner, what newer shonen improved on or avoided, etc. It's why I think it's a little disingenuous and never really works when someone argues "nostalgia goggles" or "no one complained about this before" because this forum that goes back to the early 2000s shows that wasn't the case.

I think the topic comes up for every sequel, revival, reboot, etc. For example, Blade Runner 2049 and Mad Max: Fury Road were sequels years later but also critically acclaimed and frequently listed as some of the best sci-fi of the decade while some of the Terminator sequels are more often considered average at best sci-fi or action movies. If someone feels the need to argue nostalgia goggles for any of these sequels it's most likely going to be for the Terminator sequels since they don't hold up as much on their own. I still enjoyed the Terminator sequels enough to finish them at least although I'm not someone who is very picky. I guess it's the difference between acknowledging a sequel is ok but you still enjoy it because you're a fan of that franchise vs arguing it's an overall great story that compares with new and original work of that genre.

I should also be clear that I'm not intending to say that "this kind of thing was done in this fanfiction before; it was bad there for this reason, and it is bad here for the same reason" isn't a valid view to have and to voice. It absolutely is, full respect there. The thing I was ragging on initially is the more reductive and lazy dunk that you'll sometimes see, to the effect that "this is like fanfiction", without any additional qualifications or specifications as to what fanfiction it is like, why that is bad, etc. Two very different approaches to critiquing official material, which may possibly be coming from the same place, but even so are articulated with different amounts of adequacy: the former, a reasonable critique, the latter a drive-by comment. The latter thankfully doesn't seem to be as common as it once was, at least not around here.

Yeah I can understand that. I think most of the time if someone says "this feels like fanfiction" without giving specific examples is when an idea is overly fanservicey and at the level you would more expect from fans. I guess for the people who don't read fanfiction, they would more likely use the terms "pandering" and "nostalgia baiting" when these kinds of sequels rely too much on fan service. I don't think many fans argued Beerus or Whis felt like fanfiction even if the idea of gods stronger than the Kaioshin was used before since they're original characters and the concept of a God being the antagonist is unique to the series.

There is also the editorial angle to consider. How much of the "fanservice" that we see the result of Toriyama having taken on a newfound reverence for Dragon Ball, and how much is Iyoku and the Dragon Ball Room pushing for it? It was Toriyama who was inspired to bring back Freeza, but things like Future Trunks and Broli were suggested to him. It's obviously a mix there

Yeah that's true. In the original manga, he did occasionally go against his editors to take risks and uncommon for shonen at the time. There's still some of that now but more willingness to take suggestions knowing that's what fans want to see. I recall he created Potara because Toei had Goku and Vegeta use the Fusion Dance first and he didn't want to do it again. There are other examples but those are fairly standard among almost every revival like unretiring characters and recycling development. Something like Minus might've been inspired by the modern shonen trope of revealing the protagonist's parents were special and influenced them. I'm not sure how common that was in the 90s but he did avoid it in the original manga. As far as we knew, his family members were typical Saiyans who sent him to Earth for the same reason as every other low class baby while Goku was only special because he hit his head.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

I had been curious how Toriyama would go about a villain who woke up one day and realized the Dragon World is a bad joke if you think too hard about it. That was sort of smuggled into Zamasu, his doubts about the conduct of mortals being accelerated into action after meeting Goku and nearly asking "How did this happen?" His fused form later saying something to the effect of "Goku, your success is all I need to see that this universe is lost" was a "He said the thing!" moment for me. Of course, knowing how loosely Super was produced, we cannot know what exactly came to the man himself there.