Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mireya]

@RandomGuy96

You started this, now comment on my numbers, you instigator of funny debates then going ghost mode again. Stay online and debate offering your inputs, you *****. (All said in a nice way).

[LightBing]

For sake of comparison, Tao is stronger than Gohan.
Goku tanks attacks from both: while with Gohan he's not even damaged; with Tao he receives moderate bruises.

Just looking at the fights, I disagree. Goku was trading blows to blows with Gohan, with both dodging each other more than once and making it even for a while until Goku fired the KMHMH and keee'd Gohan's body. In Tao's case, it was almost always an one sided fight, with Tao resorting to his sword once he saw he couldn't keep up with Goku. Once Goku tanked Gohan's kicks, he strengthened his position with his legs and made his body tough. With Tao, it seems Goku softned his body on purpose as a way to gauge Tao's hitting powers, who was barely being able to hit him otherwise. Goku is above both, but Son Gohan is still within a smaller range looking at the fights alone. Something like:

Goku 100
Son Gohan 96
Tao Pai Pai 90

Quickly re-read the fights and I maintain my opinion.
Both fights are fairly similar, the damage is the only difference. The most relevant point should be the narrative, Taopaipai is the person used as a comparison in the following arc, not Gohan. Even if the fights aren't crystal clear, the narrative follows it up.

[Mireya]

For sake of comparison, Tao is stronger than Gohan.
Goku tanks attacks from both: while with Gohan he's not even damaged; with Tao he receives moderate bruises.

Just looking at the fights, I disagree. Goku was trading blows to blows with Gohan, with both dodging each other more than once and making it even for a while until Goku fired the KMHMH and keee'd Gohan's body. In Tao's case, it was almost always an one sided fight, with Tao resorting to his sword once he saw he couldn't keep up with Goku. Once Goku tanked Gohan's kicks, he strengthened his position with his legs and made his body tough. With Tao, it seems Goku softned his body on purpose as a way to gauge Tao's hitting powers, who was barely being able to hit him otherwise. Goku is above both, but Son Gohan is still within a smaller range looking at the fights alone. Something like:

Goku 100
Son Gohan 96
Tao Pai Pai 90

Quickly re-read the fights and I maintain my opinion.
Both fights are fairly similar, the damage is the only difference. The most relevant point should be the narrative, Taopaipai is the person used as a comparison in the following arc, not Gohan. Even if the fights aren't crystal clear, the narrative follows it up.

I agree that Tao may have been stronger than Gohan using the theory Goku used a match level kind of like vs Gohan, but I still disagree that Goku vs Gohan was more one sided. Tao couldn't keep up with Goku's pacing besides landing a hit, which had Goku immediately bouncing back using the Karin tower and retaliating with two solid hits. After seeing the Dodonpa was useless, Tao already resorted to the sword. The hits he got on Goku were implied to have been allowed to be taken so Goku could know exactly how strong he was... He didnt make a point to toughen his body or anything, unlike with Gohan, in which he took a defensive stance and made a face of effort being aplied, likely to maintain a solid defensive stance and receive Gohan's kick without damage, flexing his body. Against Tao, even Upa questioned whether Goku was letting it happen. I think Tao is stronger because I see Goku facing him with the seriousness of a battle level match, while vs Gohan, he was mostly in a match level mode since it wasn't a fight with killing intention, a theory I use that came from GSM and RG to explain why Kuririn and Yamcha were confident in winning the tournament despite being implied to be below Tao Pai Pai... As in, they didn't see the full extent of post-karin Goku's power, being only aware of the level he used at the Baba tournament.

But looking solely at the fights themselves, that's a hard sell to me... Goku vs Tao clearly had one layer more of one sideness.

[Mireya]

The thing regarding the full match level Goku is a little weird though because it was more like a speed display, which was considerably above Roshi's as Roshi couldn't even see it... Yet Roshi stated "he has a feeling" his position may have vanished, and Tsuru also stating "Goku may have been good enough to defeat Tao", both statements showing Goku didn't eclipse them by a big amount, though his speed display certainly did outclass Roshi's considerably as Ten, barely, was the only one capable to follow that.

So maybe they took the level Goku used previously vs Kuririn (when Goku said he'd increase the pacing) coupled with that speed display to reach the conclusion they were surpassed, taking both in conjunction. If that level previously used was still < Roshi and Tao but the speed level was >> them, maybe a midterm between that warrants a possibly >= them overall level from Goku, matching the level he used vs Tao. For example:


Kuririn 66
Goku (initially vs Kuririn) 66
--- increased effort 80

Tao Pai Pai 85
Goku (full post Karin level) 95
Roshi 90

Goku's speed 110

So if we take both in conjunction, Goku's speed and previous power and find a midterm (like, summing 80 to 110 and dividing the result by 2) we'd get a 95... A level that can be labeled as good enough to "maybe" have eclipsed both... With Goku's former strength vs Kuririn being below that, but his high speed level display making up for it, leaving him in a skillset capacity of a 95, which could be the battle level used to defeat Tao and the middle term between his power and super speed)... As that speed wasn't just barely above Roshi's, it was considerably so, but overall, Goku was still "perhaps" above Roshi... So taking his until then inferior strength and considerably superior speed technique display, it "may" prove good enough to outdo Roshi and Tao).

I'd say vs Tenshinhan, Goku started already at a higher pacing than vs Kuririn, maybe the battle level post Karin, which he used vs Tao, the 95, and then upped his speed to 110... Tenshinhan could see that barely. Then Goku used his battle level, which gather both the speed (and increase it somewhat) and the strength into one, making it all a 125.


Goku (post Karin) 95
-- match level vs Gohan 55

Tao Pai Pai 85


Chappa 55

Chaozu 63
Yamcha 64
Kuririn 66

Goku (more serious vs Kuririn) 80
--- speed display 110
---- midterm overall 95

Roshi 90

Goku (initially vs Tenshinhan) 95 ---> increased his overall effort to his former battle level and now match level
--- speed display 110

Tenshinhan 120
Goku (battle level) 125

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Z Movie Power Levels (Pretty much My Z Power levels pt2 for those who saw my pt 1 months ago. I'm gonna try and attach it to my profile since I see some people with that.)

Dead Zone

Nicky:320
Ginger:340
Sansho:360
Goku: 460
Piccolo: 450
Garlic Jr: 400
Transformed Garlic Jr: 800
Gohan (Enraged): 1307

Worlds Strongest

Gohan: 1750
Krillin: 1840
Misokatsun: 4.3k
Kishime: 7k
Ebifurya: 7.5k
Piccolo: 8k
Goku: 9k
KK:18k
Dr Wheelo: 22.5k
KK3: 27k
KK4: 36k
Dr Wheelo (Max): 39k
Spirit bomb: 80k

Tree of might
Yamcha: 5k
Krillin: 6k
Tien: 6.25k
Gohan: 10k
Rasin: 8k
Rakasei: 7.6k
Cacao: 8.4k
Amond: 9.1k
Daiz: 13k
Piccolo: 18k
Turles Inital: 27k
Post fruit: 540k
Post 2nd fruit: 720k
Goku: 36k
KK:72k
KK10: 360k
Spirit bomb again: 900k

Lord slug

Gohan: 25k
Zeeun: 38k
Wings: 40k
Medamatcha: 42k
Angila: 44k
Piccolo: 80k
Goku: 90k
KK: 180k
KK10: 900k
Old slug: 1.3 mil
Young slug: 2.6 mil
False SS Goku: 4.5 mil
Giant slug: 5.2 mil
Goku KK100: 9 mil
Spirit bomb: 10 mil

Coolers Revenge

Krillin: 250k
Neiz: 360k
Doore: 380k
Salza:400k
Gohan: 500k
Piccolo: 1.8 mil
Final Form Cooler Inital: 2.88 mil
Goku: 3.24 mil
KK: 6.48 mil
KK10: 32.4 mil
KK20: 64.8 mil
Final Form Cooler (100% unseen): 96 mil
5th Form Cooler: 144 mil
SS Goku: 162 mil

Return of Cooler

Cyclops bots: 2 mil
Krillin: 2.4 mil
Gohan: 3.15 mil
Piccolo (Heavily Supressed): 3.6 mil
Goku: 4.2 mil
KK10: 42 mil
KK20: 84 mil
SS Goku: 210 mil
Meta Cooler Inital: 216 mil
SS Vegeta: 216 mil
Meta Cooler 1st repair: 324 mil
2nd repair 500 mil
Meta Cooler Core: 470 mil
Goku (dollar store spirit bomb): 525 mil

Super android 13

Krillin: 2.6 mil
Gohan 3.5 mil
Trunks: 4.32 mil
Goku: 4.5 mil
Vegeta: 4.5 mil
Android 15 Inital: 6 mil
Android 14 Inital: 5.4 mil
Android 13 Inital: 6.6 mil
Android 14: 190 mil
Android 15: 200 mil
Android 13: 210 mil
SS Trunks: 216 mil
SS Goku/Vegeta: 225 mil
Piccolo: 360 mil
Super 13: 600 mil
SS Goku (Spirit bomb absorbed): 675 mil

Legendary Super Saiyan

Krillin: 2.8 mil
Gohan: 15 mil
Trunks: 17.28 mil
Vegeta: 18 mil
Goku: 22.5 mil
Broly: 24 mil
RSS Broly: 240 mil
SS Gohan: 750 mil
Piccolo: 810 mil
SS Trunks: 864 mil
SS Vegeta: 900 mil
Super Trunks: 1.08 bil
Super Vegeta: 1.125 bil
SS Goku: 1.125 bil
SS Broly: 1.25 bil
LSS Broly: 2 bil
Goku (Power of Friendship): 2.7 bil

Bojack Unbound

Yamcha: 2.25 mil
Tien: 2.7 mil
Krillin: 3 mil
Trunks: 43.2 mil
Vegeta: 45 mil
Base Kogu Inital: 51.25 mil
Goku: 54 mil
Gohan: 60 mil
Base Kogu (Estimated Base FP): 1.025 bil
Super Kogu: 1.64 bil
Bujin: 1.72 bil
Bido: 1.76 bil
Zangya: 1.8 bil
Piccolo: 1.92 bil
SS Trunks: 2.16 bil
SS Vegeta: 2.25 bil
SS Gohan: 3 bil
Base Bojack: 3 bil
Super Bojack: 4.8 bil
SS2 Gohan: 6 bil

Second Coming

Videl: 7
Goten: 30 mil
Trunks: 31.2 mil
Gohan: 58 mil
Broly: 75 mil
SS Goten: 1.5 bil
SS Trunks: 1.56 bil
SS Broly: 3.75 bil
SS2 Gohan: 5.7 bil
LSS Broly: 7.5 bil

Bio Broly

Videl: 7.77
Krillin: 3.75 mil
Goten: 34.56 mil
Trunks: 36 mil
SS Goten: 1.728 bil
SS Trunks: 1.8 bil
Bio Broly: 2.5 bil

Fusion Reborn

Vegeta: 75 mil
Goku: 75 mil
SS Vegeta: 3.75 bil
SS Goku: 3.75 bil
SS2 Vegeta: 7.5 bil
SS2 Goku: 7.5 bil
Fat Janemba: 20 bil
SS3 Goku: 30 bil
Super Janemba: 120 bil
Super Gogeta: 300 bil

Wrath of the Dragon

Goten: 43.2 mil
Trunks: 45 mil
Vegeta: 80 mil
Goku: 80 mil
Gohan: 84 mil
SS Goten: 2.16 bil
SS Trunks: 2.25 bil
SS Vegeta: 4 bil
SS Goku: 4 bil
SS2 Vegeta: 8 bil
SS2 Goku: 8 bil
Hirudergarn top and bottom half: 37.5 bil
SS3 Goku: 32 bil
SS3 Gotenks: 60 bil
Hirudergarn: 75 bil
Mystic Gohan: 84 bil
Hirudegarn Final Form: 150 bil
SS3 Goku Dragon Fist: 160 bil +

[Mr Perfect Cell]

Z Movie Power Levels (Pretty much My Z Power levels pt2 for those who saw my pt 1 months ago. I'm gonna try and attach it to my profile since I see some people with that.)

Dead Zone

Nicky:320
Ginger:340
Sansho:360
Goku: 460
Piccolo: 450
Garlic Jr: 400
Transformed Garlic Jr: 800
Gohan (Enraged): 1307

Worlds Strongest

Gohan: 1750
Krillin: 1840
Misokatsun: 4.3k
Kishime: 7k
Ebifurya: 7.5k
Piccolo: 8k
Goku: 9k
KK:18k
Dr Wheelo: 22.5k
KK3: 27k
KK4: 36k
Dr Wheelo (Max): 39k
Spirit bomb: 80k

Tree of might
Yamcha: 5k
Krillin: 6k
Tien: 6.25k
Gohan: 10k
Rasin: 8k
Rakasei: 7.6k
Cacao: 8.4k
Amond: 9.1k
Daiz: 13k
Piccolo: 18k
Turles Inital: 27k
Post fruit: 540k
Post 2nd fruit: 720k
Goku: 36k
KK:72k
KK10: 360k
Spirit bomb again: 900k

Lord slug

Gohan: 25k
Zeeun: 38k
Wings: 40k
Medamatcha: 42k
Angila: 44k
Piccolo: 80k
Goku: 90k
KK: 180k
KK10: 900k
Old slug: 1.3 mil
Young slug: 2.6 mil
False SS Goku: 4.5 mil
Giant slug: 5.2 mil
Goku KK100: 9 mil
Spirit bomb: 10 mil

Coolers Revenge

Krillin: 250k
Neiz: 360k
Doore: 380k
Salza:400k
Gohan: 500k
Piccolo: 1.8 mil
Final Form Cooler Inital: 2.88 mil
Goku: 3.24 mil
KK: 6.48 mil
KK10: 32.4 mil
KK20: 64.8 mil
Final Form Cooler (100% unseen): 96 mil
5th Form Cooler: 144 mil
SS Goku: 162 mil

Return of Cooler

Cyclops bots: 2 mil
Krillin: 2.4 mil
Gohan: 3.15 mil
Piccolo (Heavily Supressed): 3.6 mil
Goku: 4.2 mil
KK10: 42 mil
KK20: 84 mil
SS Goku: 210 mil
Meta Cooler Inital: 216 mil
SS Vegeta: 216 mil
Meta Cooler 1st repair: 324 mil
2nd repair 500 mil
Meta Cooler Core: 470 mil
Goku (dollar store spirit bomb): 525 mil

Super android 13

Krillin: 2.6 mil
Gohan 3.5 mil
Trunks: 4.32 mil
Goku: 4.5 mil
Vegeta: 4.5 mil
Android 15 Inital: 6 mil
Android 14 Inital: 5.4 mil
Android 13 Inital: 6.6 mil
Android 14: 190 mil
Android 15: 200 mil
Android 13: 210 mil
SS Trunks: 216 mil
SS Goku/Vegeta: 225 mil
Piccolo: 360 mil
Super 13: 600 mil
SS Goku (Spirit bomb absorbed): 675 mil

Legendary Super Saiyan

Krillin: 2.8 mil
Gohan: 15 mil
Trunks: 17.28 mil
Vegeta: 18 mil
Goku: 22.5 mil
Broly: 24 mil
RSS Broly: 240 mil
SS Gohan: 750 mil
Piccolo: 810 mil
SS Trunks: 864 mil
SS Vegeta: 900 mil
Super Trunks: 1.08 bil
Super Vegeta: 1.125 bil
SS Goku: 1.125 bil
SS Broly: 1.25 bil
LSS Broly: 2 bil
Goku (Power of Friendship): 2.7 bil

Bojack Unbound

Yamcha: 2.25 mil
Tien: 2.7 mil
Krillin: 3 mil
Trunks: 43.2 mil
Vegeta: 45 mil
Base Kogu Inital: 51.25 mil
Goku: 54 mil
Gohan: 60 mil
Base Kogu (Estimated Base FP): 1.025 bil
Super Kogu: 1.64 bil
Bujin: 1.72 bil
Bido: 1.76 bil
Zangya: 1.8 bil
Piccolo: 1.92 bil
SS Trunks: 2.16 bil
SS Vegeta: 2.25 bil
SS Gohan: 3 bil
Base Bojack: 3 bil
Super Bojack: 4.8 bil
SS2 Gohan: 6 bil

Second Coming

Videl: 7
Goten: 30 mil
Trunks: 31.2 mil
Gohan: 58 mil
Broly: 75 mil
SS Goten: 1.5 bil
SS Trunks: 1.56 bil
SS Broly: 3.75 bil
SS2 Gohan: 5.7 bil
LSS Broly: 7.5 bil

Bio Broly

Videl: 7.77
Krillin: 3.75 mil
Goten: 34.56 mil
Trunks: 36 mil
SS Goten: 1.728 bil
SS Trunks: 1.8 bil
Bio Broly: 2.5 bil

Fusion Reborn

Vegeta: 75 mil
Goku: 75 mil
SS Vegeta: 3.75 bil
SS Goku: 3.75 bil
SS2 Vegeta: 7.5 bil
SS2 Goku: 7.5 bil
Fat Janemba: 20 bil
SS3 Goku: 30 bil
Super Janemba: 120 bil
Super Gogeta: 300 bil

Wrath of the Dragon

Goten: 43.2 mil
Trunks: 45 mil
Vegeta: 80 mil
Goku: 80 mil
Gohan: 84 mil
SS Goten: 2.16 bil
SS Trunks: 2.25 bil
SS Vegeta: 4 bil
SS Goku: 4 bil
SS2 Vegeta: 8 bil
SS2 Goku: 8 bil
Hirudergarn top and bottom half: 37.5 bil
SS3 Goku: 32 bil
SS3 Gotenks: 60 bil
Hirudergarn: 75 bil
Mystic Gohan: 84 bil
Hirudegarn Final Form: 150 bil
SS3 Goku Dragon Fist: 160 bil +

[Magnificent Ponta]

So, soliciting some opinions:

We know that removing weighted clothing gives a jump in BP, as the characters get lighter. Would this also apply to moving between differing levels of Gravity? That is, if a character was (say) in a Gravity Room that went from high gravity to normal gravity, would their BP rise in a similar way to removal of weighted clothing?

If you consider that the answer is "yes", then might this apply to the Saiyans when they arrive on Earth? Nappa specifically makes the comment in DB #213 that he feels basically weightless in Earth Gravity; might their transition to a different gravity level allow for changes in BP? So you could have something that uses multiple BPs from Guidebooks, pamphlets and promotional material, video games, etc., depending on the scenario. Maybe something kind of like:

"Native" Gravity (~10G)
Raditz: ~ 1,200
Nappa: ~ 4,000-4,500
Vegeta: ~ 15,000-16,000

Earth-Like Gravity (~1G)
Raditz: ~ 1,500-1,600
Nappa: ~ 7,000
Vegeta: ~ 18,000

Interested in any thoughts y'all might have. Thanks!

[DanielSSJ]

So, soliciting some opinions:

We know that removing weighted clothing gives a jump in BP, as the characters get lighter. Would this also apply to moving between differing levels of Gravity? That is, if a character was (say) in a Gravity Room that went from high gravity to normal gravity, would their BP rise in a similar way to removal of weighted clothing?

If you consider that the answer is "yes", then might this apply to the Saiyans when they arrive on Earth? Nappa specifically makes the comment in DB #213 that he feels basically weightless in Earth Gravity; might their transition to a different gravity level allow for changes in BP? So you could have something that uses multiple BPs from Guidebooks, pamphlets and promotional material, video games, etc., depending on the scenario. Maybe something kind of like:

"Native" Gravity (~10G)
Raditz: ~ 1,200
Nappa: ~ 4,000-4,500
Vegeta: ~ 15,000-16,000

Earth-Like Gravity (~1G)
Raditz: ~ 1,500-1,600
Nappa: ~ 7,000
Vegeta: ~ 18,000

Interested in any thoughts y'all might have. Thanks!

Following the logic of weighted clothes, gravity probably should have a similar effect on one's Battle Power, but the idea that wearing heavy clothing would cause your Battle Power (which is just a measurement of one's spiritual power) to drop has always seemed a little weird to me. If anything, your think their BP would be a bit elevated, considering the extra exertion, but I'm probably overthinking things.

[LightBing]

So, soliciting some opinions:

We know that removing weighted clothing gives a jump in BP, as the characters get lighter. Would this also apply to moving between differing levels of Gravity? That is, if a character was (say) in a Gravity Room that went from high gravity to normal gravity, would their BP rise in a similar way to removal of weighted clothing?

If you consider that the answer is "yes", then might this apply to the Saiyans when they arrive on Earth? Nappa specifically makes the comment in DB #213 that he feels basically weightless in Earth Gravity; might their transition to a different gravity level allow for changes in BP? So you could have something that uses multiple BPs from Guidebooks, pamphlets and promotional material, video games, etc., depending on the scenario. Maybe something kind of like:

"Native" Gravity (~10G)
Raditz: ~ 1,200
Nappa: ~ 4,000-4,500
Vegeta: ~ 15,000-16,000

Earth-Like Gravity (~1G)
Raditz: ~ 1,500-1,600
Nappa: ~ 7,000
Vegeta: ~ 18,000

Interested in any thoughts y'all might have. Thanks!

Wouldn't the effect be the same for everyone? For example 100kg of extra weight expends 20 ki or something. No reason to give different values. The only purpose would be a per planet/realm calculator.

Besides Planet Vegeta was destroyed a few decades ago, did they even experience it recently? Vegeta and Nappa were almost sleeping for a year, if anything they should be weaker for that reason.
Regardless the weighed clothes is just a "I'm still hiding power " type of twist. It's not any sort of "hidden mechanic".

[Magnificent Ponta]

Wouldn't the effect be the same for everyone?

I would suppose that this seems less likely on the face of it, for the quite straightforward reason that they're different people with significantly different strengths, sizes and weights, so it would consequently make better sense that they would respond to changes in gravity differently.

Vegeta, for instance, is much smaller (and presumably therefore much lighter) than Raditz or Nappa, so would have significantly less extra weight to carry around when moving under 10G; moreover, he's so vastly super powered already that he may well also be less affected by this degree of gravity change than, e.g., the physically enormous, but also weaker, Nappa.

Besides Planet Vegeta was destroyed a few decades ago, did they even experience it recently? Vegeta and Nappa were almost sleeping for a year, if anything they should be weaker for that reason.

Nappa made a point of commenting on how much lighter he feels in Earth's gravity, in DB #213 ("Ha ha! This is great! The gravity here is so low, it feels like I'm weightless!"). If the pair of them weren't more accustomed to experiencing significantly different (stronger) gravity levels than Earth Normal, it would be difficult to see why he would make a comment indicating that 1G is in some way notably not typical for him.

Following the logic of weighted clothes, gravity probably should have a similar effect on one's Battle Power, but the idea that wearing heavy clothing would cause your Battle Power (which is just a measurement of one's spiritual power) to drop has always seemed a little weird to me.

Yeah, it does seem a strange thing. If I were approaching it from a strictly logical perspective without anything prior to go on, I'd simply assume that extra weight on the body would simply be an encumbrance without affecting BP one way or the other; however, it's one of the oldest and most explicitly established BP details the manga gives us, so I guess it needs reckoning with. I'm really just curious to think with the same basic principle in a slightly different way, to see whether it could help reconcile some of the most contentious official BP listings we have, in Raditz and Nappa.

[Mireya]

So, soliciting some opinions:

We know that removing weighted clothing gives a jump in BP, as the characters get lighter. Would this also apply to moving between differing levels of Gravity? That is, if a character was (say) in a Gravity Room that went from high gravity to normal gravity, would their BP rise in a similar way to removal of weighted clothing?

If you consider that the answer is "yes", then might this apply to the Saiyans when they arrive on Earth? Nappa specifically makes the comment in DB #213 that he feels basically weightless in Earth Gravity; might their transition to a different gravity level allow for changes in BP? So you could have something that uses multiple BPs from Guidebooks, pamphlets and promotional material, video games, etc., depending on the scenario. Maybe something kind of like:

"Native" Gravity (~10G)
Raditz: ~ 1,200
Nappa: ~ 4,000-4,500
Vegeta: ~ 15,000-16,000

Earth-Like Gravity (~1G)
Raditz: ~ 1,500-1,600
Nappa: ~ 7,000
Vegeta: ~ 18,000

Interested in any thoughts y'all might have. Thanks!

Interesting idea, but I think in this case the power levels remain the same, he can just use it more effectively... Like when you are used to fighting in higher altitudes and then gets a performance enhancement from fighting in low regions. It's more like the fixed BP being potencialized.

As for the weight, it's curious that it also hold back Goku's power, but that's what it is. I think in that case the weights are suppressing his natural ability... And then increasing that once they are taken off.

Hmm now that I think about it the process is about the same. I'd say though that Nappa would release the same amount of energy as before, since he has always lived in a 10G planet, so his level of being used to that is very high... It's normal to him. Here he's experiencing something he has never seen before, so more like an ability enhancement. Goku existed with no weights. The weights made him adapt to what he wasn't used to and then increase when taking them off. Slightly differently, Nappa is always adapted to 10G, and the normal 10x was a shock to him, but not in a sense it would come with a power up, whereas Goku adapted to a new one then came back to his usual self. So the weight may be seen as more restrictive as even though moving helluva fast, he was still in a situation he wasn't used to... Nappa and 10G was like nothing, so he's getting the 1st perception of a normal Earth G and can move more freely, but his usual self always existed in 10G, so there may lie the difference a little.

[Noah]

Who is the strongest character that a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Z) could defeat in both GT and Super?

[Hugo Boss]

Who is the strongest character that a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Z) could defeat in both GT and Super?

Since we have nothing to go by, I guess SS4 Goku and SSB Goku, respectively?

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So, soliciting some opinions:

We know that removing weighted clothing gives a jump in BP, as the characters get lighter. Would this also apply to moving between differing levels of Gravity? That is, if a character was (say) in a Gravity Room that went from high gravity to normal gravity, would their BP rise in a similar way to removal of weighted clothing?

If you consider that the answer is "yes", then might this apply to the Saiyans when they arrive on Earth? Nappa specifically makes the comment in DB #213 that he feels basically weightless in Earth Gravity; might their transition to a different gravity level allow for changes in BP? So you could have something that uses multiple BPs from Guidebooks, pamphlets and promotional material, video games, etc., depending on the scenario. Maybe something kind of like:

"Native" Gravity (~10G)
Raditz: ~ 1,200
Nappa: ~ 4,000-4,500
Vegeta: ~ 15,000-16,000

Earth-Like Gravity (~1G)
Raditz: ~ 1,500-1,600
Nappa: ~ 7,000
Vegeta: ~ 18,000

Interested in any thoughts y'all might have. Thanks!

Come to think of it, it's pretty funny the Freeza Force were so taken aback by the idea of changing power levels when something as simple as weighted clothing can do the trick.

But doesn't weighted training become fruitless after a while? Goku drops them entirely until Whis comes with absurdly heavy weights in Super.

I'm not sure if this quite works for Raditz (Gohan does quite a number on him, and the Saibamen sort of show how the Dragon Team would handle him 1 year later), but for Nappa and Vegeta it makes sense. I think this (along with Yuuki/Shouki issues) might explain how Kui is a match for Vegeta, but 24k Vegeta defeats him easier than KKx3 Goku defeats Vegeta on Earth.

Who is the strongest character that a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Z) could defeat in both GT and Super?

In Super, I'd say Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta for the anime and maybe SSJG Goku for the manga if Manga SSJG is weaker than his anime/movie self.

GT I'd say General Rildo. GT Goku should be comparable to Z Vegetto in the same forms.

[QuakingStar]

The weights only change power levels when they are heavy enough, for example 300g does nothing for Vegeta anymore, and Piccolo has to up his weight for his shoulder pads and hat all the time. So unless its equivalent to 11g or higher, Raditz and the other Saiyans wouldn't be affected by it.

[Magnificent Ponta]

So, following a recent discussion on Neoseeker that seems to validate the idea that the text of the booklet series commonly known as El Manga Legendario comes originally from Shueisha and has contributions from some of the people who worked on the Daizenshuu, rather than just being a whimsical third party project with no worthwhile information, I decided to dip into it a bit more closely, to see if it had anything interesting to say that might put some of the material in a different light (of course, that doesn't give it Guidebook status, and Shueisha isn't above giving out some highly suspect statements anyway, but I thought it was interesting and worth a closer look, even with a critical eye).

Specifically, I had a look at the French version (Le Manga de Légende) which was the first version published of this line of booklets, by Hachette, the publisher who it seems originally commissioned the figurines and booklets. It turns out the French version is freely, entirely, and apparently quite legitimately accessible online, so I went through it all with a view to identifying all the power statements I could. The better-known Spanish Translation (El Manga Legendario) has also been put online, by fans, and I was able to have a look at the statements in the Spanish to compare. To summarise:

• There are a number of surprising power scaling claims in the French version - nothing wildly contradictory to what's in the manga, but some big-looking power jumps here and there, tossed out quite casually.
• In particular, the French version is very fond of using the term "décuple"/"décuplée" (from the verb "décupler") to describe some of the power jumps - this verb means specifically "to multiply tenfold" (it's the dictionary definition, but I also checked with a French chap I know; it has this meaning and apparently doesn't really have vague alternative idiomatic connotations like "to increase a lot"). Famously this claim is made of Trunks in SSj Grade III, but the French version uses it all over the place. In one place, the French version even uses the term for the extent to which Vegeta becomes more aggressive, under Babidi's charm (Issue 45, p.14). If I had to guess, I'd say the thoroughgoing reliance on this term is a choice by the translator more often than not, because...
• A lot of these claims are wholly lacking in the Spanish version. Though the Spanish translation was published later than the French, by Editorial Salvat, it seems like this version is not translated from the French, but rather is a fresh translation from whatever Japanese material was apparently formulated originally (Salvat is owned by Hachette, so one might have expected a direct translation from the French, as a more accessible language). However, most of the material seems generally similar enough to mostly indicate differing translations from the same source, rather than each version composing freely and embellishing as desired.
• The French version also likes to use the phrase "aussi fort" in comparing characters (basically meaning "as strong"); this is often rendered in the Spanish as "similar". I take it that the French covers this general sense of being comparable without being super-specific, so I'm saying it says "about as strong" in the listing below. That's just a caveat on a decision I'm making, so feel free to disagree.
• The French uses a lot of different expressions for rendering concepts of power. Even "Battle Power" is rendered two different ways, as "force combative" or "puissance combative"; often just "force" or "puissance" are used, or even "plus fort" (stronger) or "fort" (strong), and sometimes forms of "pouvoir" (power, sometimes used of "powers", but as a verb can mean generally the ability to do something); from a really quick check the Spanish seems to be somewhat more consistent in its rendering of the concepts, but also is keen on stuff like "fuerza" and "poder" to get the message across.
• If I had to guess, despite some unaccountable variations, generally the differences probably mostly come down to basic translation choice, and I'd guess the French version is overall freer than the Spanish. Which is unfortunate for me, as my Spanish is rubbish

For your convenience, here are the notes below from each issue where I found something of interest. Some are kind of obvious, and I haven't been 100% consistent in reproducing every strength statement in the series (I figure you don't need to have a citation for it telling us that Vegetto is surely the strongest in the story) - just ones where historically I've known there to be fan discussion or a sense of ambiguity, or where I found the statements in some way noteworthy. I'm citing from issue numbers and page numbers, and also comparing with the Spanish El Manga Legendario version in square brackets and italics. Hopefully it's of interest, and apologies for any errors I may have made (the French is quite a simple level, but my schoolboy French is very rusty - by all means feel free to check my work):

• Issue 3; p.3: Assimilating Nail multiplies Piccolo's power tenfold. [El Manga Legendario says 5 times ("quintuplicado"). Also the French version states it twice on the same page, once in main text and once in a caption - it looks like the caption lacks a specific power scaling statement in the Spanish.]
• Issue 8, p.15: The Super Holy Water multiplies power tenfold (by which I assume is meant, Karin's training does this). [El Manga Legendario lacks the multiplier; it just says it confers great power.]
• Issue 9, p.13: Second Form Cell's power is ten times that of his first form. [El Manga Legendario lacks this entirely, just saying that Cell achieves his Second Form by absorbing Android #17.]
• Issue 12, p.16: Yajirobe is about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario says rather that he can fight on equal terms with Goku, which isn't quite the same thing.]
• Issue 22, p.15: A Saibaiman is about as strong as Raditz. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar"]
• Issue 24, p.17: Son Gohan's power is multiplied by 10 when the Great Elder awakens his dormant power. [El Manga Legendario simply says that Gohan's awakened power surprises Vegeta - the French version also says this, it merely differs in having the tenfold multiplication present.]
• Issue 25, p.16: Inferior-ranked soldiers in Freeza's army are about the same level as Raditz or a Saibaiman (the goons Kuririn and Gohan kill are in the pictures around this statement). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; they're a similar level.]
• Issue 27, p.14: Gurd's Battle Power is well below that of Kuririn and Gohan. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 28, p.17: The Battle Powers of Jheese and other members of the Ginyu Force are "probably somewhere between 40,000 and 50,000". [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 29, p.17: Both Piccolo and 2nd Form Freeza's Battle Powers are over a million, and Piccolo is stronger than Freeza. Also, a Battle Power of 10,000 is sufficient to destroy a planet. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 30, p.14: Transforming into his 2nd Form doubles Freeza's power. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 32, p.15: Trunks is about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; calls their strength "comparable".]
• Issue 32, p.17: King Cold is about as strong as Freeza. [El Manga Legendario seems to lack this tidbit entirely.]
• Issue 33, p.7: After 3 years of training, Vegeta and Piccolo are about as strong as Goku. [El Manga Legendario seems to lack this, as it looks like it just says they are Goku's rivals and after training have an impressive combat power.]
• Issue 34, p.15: Vegeta as a Super Saiyan is about as strong as Goku (though as per the manga, it later says that he might be stronger). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar".]
• Issue 35, p.15 and 17: Android #17 is stronger than Android #18 (said both ways around - the latter says #18 is weaker than #17, specifically). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 38, p.15: The Cell Juniors are about as strong as Vegeta. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; uses the word "similar" again.]
• Issue 38, p.16: Grade III multiplies Trunks's strength tenfold but inhibits his movement (it does not say compared to what - obviously either Grade II, since that's the prior form, or SSj generally, since the item is basically about surpassing Super Saiyan). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.13: The order of strength between the Androids is Cell, #16, #17, #18, #20, #19. [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.16: Gohan realises he's stronger than Cell, which is why he tries to convince him to stop fighting (this is a direct caption of SSj Gohan saying the fight is pointless, so it seems that this is saying SSj Gohan is already stronger than Cell). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 39, p.17: There's a comparison between Gohan's SSj2 and Vegeta's Grade II, saying that Vegeta's transformation is all in the muscles but Gohan's maximises his ki. (Really just popping this in because I've seen discussion inferring that the comparison means that the two forms might have the same basic multiplier, which is not what it says but it's not necessarily wrong to infer it). [El Manga Legendario basically says the same thing; it's vague, I'm just flagging generally rather than subjecting to close reading.]
• Issue 40, p.15: Goku and Vegeta are disappointed by Gohan's weakness when they see him fight Dabura, but Kaioshin is surprised by his strength (this is surrounded by a bunch of other statements that Gohan isn't as strong as he used to be). [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 41, p.18: At 7 years old, Goten is already stronger than Freeza (probably quite unsurprising and doesn't tell you much, but just threw it in there, as there tend to be minimalists and maximalists for where the SSj kids stand in power terms). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 42, p.14: When controlled by Babidi, Spopovitch's power becomes 10 times what it usually is. [El Manga Legendario says only "several times higher".]
• Issue 42, p.15: Yamu seems to be Spopovitch's superior (isn't necessarily a power statement, but might be). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]
• Issue 43, p.15: Though Kaioshin is powerful, he's much weaker than a Super Saiyan. From how he reacts to Dabura, who is on the same level as Cell, one imagines that Kaioshin's strength is that of Goku and his friends at the time of the Cell Game. [El Manga Legendario says something similar, but with a couple of important differences: it says instead that he has unusual abilities but does not seem to surpass the combat strength of the Super Saiyans. It also compares him specifically to Cell Game Goku, and not also to his friends like the French version.]
• Issue 43, p.16: Kibito isn't on Kaioshin's level, but he's strong. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same.]
• Issue 44, p.16: Dabura is about as strong as Cell in his Perfect Form. [El Manga Legendario says basically the same; again, using the word "similar".]
• Issue 45, p.13: Gotenks is stronger than Majin Buu (doesn't say which Gotenks, but this is next to a picture of Base Form Gotenks - the question isn't tied to a specific part of the manga story, however, as it's on the Answers Page of a quiz about fusions generally). [El Manga Legendario lacks this comment entirely.]
• Issue 47, p.7: Buu and Gotenks fight with unprecedented power ("puissance sans précédent" - this refers to the period where the pair fight in the Room of Spirit and Time, so passes as a comment on Super Buu and SSj Gotenks). [El Manga Legendario doesn't quite say this, instead it says the pair fight with an "incredible Combat power" ("una fuerza de combate incredible").]
• Issue 49, p.18: The Potaras don't just add together the strength of 2 people, but also augment their power. It also says that if Goku and Gohan had fused, the effect would not have been so augmented as his fusion with Vegeta (because of the rival boost). [El Manga Legendario seems to say something slightly different, saying that not only do the Potaras augment combat power, but also enhance other abilities. However, it seems to say basically the same with respect to the putative Goku-Gohan fusion.]
• Issue 49, p.19: Goku could've beaten Pure Buu if he'd had the help of Gotenks and Gohan. [El Manga Legendario seems to say basically the same - perhaps a slightly different implication, in saying Gotenks and Gohan would have been enough to beat Buu. It also says that Buu's Pure form is the most violent but not so strong ("pero no tan fuerte"), whereas the French seems only to say he's the most aggressive without making explicit comment about his strength.]
• Issue 50, p.19: By the end of the story, Goku is the strongest fighter in the Universe. (This isn't a declaration; it's mentioned in passing as part of the charm of Dragon Ball - that, although Goku has become the strongest fighter in the Universe, he still seeks to push his limits). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]

There you go: all I could find out of Le Manga De Légende, cross-checked against El Manga Legendario. If anyone knows something in the Spanish version that isn't in the French, that would be interesting to see (again, my rubbish Spanish isn't up to a deep-dive into El Manga Legendario), as would a comparison with the Italian (Il Manga Leggendario) or Greek (Το θρυλικό Manga) versions by anyone with access.

Anyway, even if it doesn't impact any opinions to have this stuff put up here, I hope it was interesting!

[Koitsukai]

• Issue 3; p.3: Assimilating Nail multiplies Piccolo's power tenfold. [El Manga Legendario says 5 times ("quintuplicado"). Also the French version states it twice on the same page, once in main text and once in a caption - it looks like the caption lacks a specific power scaling statement in the Spanish.]

I actually found this on my spanish manga copy of the Namek arc. They had Nailccolo 5x stronger than Piccolo, which I firmly believed until I watched the original version and there's no multiplier given, it's more like "many times stronger".
The same thing happened with Cyborg Tao, the spanish manga had him 5x stronger than regular Tao Pai Pai, IIRC it also is "many times stronger" in the original.
So, I guess the Manga Legendario and the original spanish translation of the manga were done by the same people, or at least there's some connection between them.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I've seen a few japanese speakers say that "many times stronger" is sort of an umbrella term for single digit numbers. I think that makes 5x a good middle ground, specially if merging with Kami (which is commonly agreed to be a 2x boost) makes him on pair with 1st form Freeza.

Piccolo: 250,000
~ Merged with Kami: 500,000
~ Merged with Nail: 1,250,000

Goku getting a 10x power up from drinking the real holy water would make sense since there's that Oozaru image, but if it's the fake one then forget it. If the "many times < 10x" thing is true then most of these don't hold up. Semi Cell being 10x Imperfect Cell is particularly crazy

The 10x stronger seems more like a translator's signature thing. I think SSJ Grade III is the only one I take home since it's on both and it makes sense if you think about it (Goku goes from below Android 18 to stronger than Semi Cell just by unlocking it).

Issue 50, p.19: By the end of the story, Goku is the strongest fighter in the Universe. (This isn't a declaration; it's mentioned in passing as part of the charm of Dragon Ball - that, although Goku has become the strongest fighter in the Universe, he still seeks to push his limits). [El Manga Legendario says the same.]

This one is interesting. I was talking about this somewhere else and thought it should be common sense, but there's some resistance because it's not directly stated.

[Hugo Boss]

This is such a great work! Herms would be proud, congratulations

A lot of these claims are wholly lacking in the Spanish version. Though the Spanish translation was published later than the French, by Editorial Salvat, it seems like this version is not translated from the French, but rather is a fresh translation from whatever Japanese material was apparently formulated originally (Salvat is owned by Hachette, so one might have expected a direct translation from the French, as a more accessible language). However, most of the material seems generally similar enough to mostly indicate differing translations from the same source, rather than each version composing freely and embellishing as desired.

After reading the citations, I share this opinion as well. The Spanish version seems more grounded. I can’t exactly figure out any conflicting information there with the manga.

I’m just wondering about the last issue, where Goku is told be the strongest in the universe. Is it referring to the final chapter, where Goku fights Oob?

[Magnificent Ponta]

I actually found this on my spanish manga copy of the Namek arc. They had Nailccolo 5x stronger than Piccolo, which I firmly believed until I watched the original version and there's no multiplier given, it's more like "many times stronger".
The same thing happened with Cyborg Tao, the spanish manga had him 5x stronger than regular Tao Pai Pai, IIRC it also is "many times stronger" in the original.
So, I guess the Manga Legendario and the original spanish translation of the manga were done by the same people, or at least there's some connection between them.

This is a very interesting insight! It made me wonder whether there's any localised manga translation influence on the translations of the booklets generally, so I had a quick spot check and it seems to be borne out, at least in places, for a French translation I was able to find also (not sure if it's the official one?). Just a few examples where the word shows up:

Vol. 7, p.132: Of the Super Holy Water, "Mais oui! C'est vrai qu'au sommet, il y a une potion qui décuple les forces!" ("Oh yeah! It's true that at the top, there's a potion that multiplies strength tenfold!")
Vol. 7, p.167: Karin tells Goku, "Tes forces se sont bel et bien décuplées!" ("Your strength has well and truly been multiplied tenfold!")
Vol 14. p.140, Tao Pai Pai says, "Grâce à ça, ma puissance a décuplée, je suis des centaines de fois plus fort qu'avant" ("Thanks to that [becoming a cyborg], my power has multiplied tenfold, I'm hundreds of times stronger than before")
Vol. 25, p.21: Nail tells Piccolo, "Cela [Assimilation] te permettrait de décupler tes forces..." ("It will permit you to multiply your strength tenfold...")

It doesn't show up in all the corresponding areas where it's recorded for Le Manga de Légende, but it's potentially instructive - since it's a booklet series about the manga for a target audience that would be familiar with its published wording in the target language, it would make sense for the French translator of the booklet material to favour "décuple(r)" so readily if the expression already pops up in the French version(/versions) of the manga, accommodating that on some level while translating the Japanese material also. Again, not sure if what I've found in the French manga excerpts here are from the official translation, but if it's being bandied about generally...

Goku getting a 10x power up from drinking the real holy water would make sense since there's that Oozaru image, but if it's the fake one then forget it. If the "many times < 10x" thing is true then most of these don't hold up. Semi Cell being 10x Imperfect Cell is particularly crazy

Yeah, it's a strange one - I was almost expecting some appearance of "décuple" around the appearance of the Super God Water, but it stays general, saying his power shocks Karin, he becomes as strong as Piccolo, etc.; the closest it gets is saying that Goku in some fashion transforms into an Oozaru in the part with Piccolo Daimao (Issue 15, p.19: "Dans ce passage avec Piccolo Daimao, Goku se transforme en singe géant. Ces signes sont liés et tout s'éclaircit quand on apprend que Goku est un Saiyen.").

And yes, the 2nd Form Cell bit is wild - I almost missed it, too. Even my 'Total Power' models in the Modest Proposal (which accommodated a more than 10-fold total power boost for Goku after training with Karin) would struggle to accommodate any kind of tenfold boost there...

I’m just wondering about the last issue, where Goku is told be the strongest in the universe. Is it referring to the final chapter, where Goku fights Oob?

It's talking about the final scene where he leaves with Uub (the booklets have a two-page item in every issue focusing on two key scenes from the material covered, of which this is the final one); it's basically saying that Goku's always looking to get stronger since the beginning of the story, and so now at the end, even though he's become the strongest fighter in the universe - and the fact that he never really changes is part of the charm of Dragon Ball.