Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Thani]

Given what we have seen from other media, it's implied full UI is still the Paragon.
Whis was completely playing with Broly, after all

For the lack of Broly triggering Goku's transformation it's worth to note Goku was never really pushed to the wall in the movie. Hell, he and Vegeta are pretty sure they can manage Broly if they get a senzu.
And the universe isn't really under threat, so much less pressure.
Broly is truly strong, but he's still somebody two full powered Blues could reasonably take on by themselves by collaboration if they don't waste energy and don't get surprised.
(It would likely be exhausting for them but not impossible)

I think the most reasonable approach is that Broly wasn’t really trying to end everything like the other antagonists were. From Goku and Vegeta perspective, it was a street fight. The Saiyan trait was much more present in Broly, because that was a battle for survival for him.

I could buy that during his battle in base. But after going SS? I doubt it. Not that he would be maliciously trying to destroy the planet or anything, but he was completely out of himself. He definitely could destroy the planet by accident and only realise it after calming down.

He went as far as attacking Freeza after Goku and Vegeta fled, and then went straight to Whis despite the angel doing nothing that could have remotely triggered him. In that state, I imagine he could even attack Cheelai and Lemo.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Am I on the radio... ??? you cannot be real, so please don't quote me ever again.

No. Answer the question, the silver haired Goku that was shown in Broly, was that Ultra Instinct or was it not?

It's a very simple question.

[Kazuya Mishima]

he seems to have an anti-Gohan agenda. I think it might be best if we all ignore him.

Grow up .

No, it wasn’t Ultra Instinct. It was just Goku transitioning from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan Blue.

The silver haired and silver eyed Goku shown briefly following its recent appearance in the anime as Ultra Instinct....you're going with that not actually being Ultra Instinct? He was just going from red to blue and in that moment just happened to briefly show silver? That is what you've decided to go with?

But honestly, at this point, it just seems that you are trying to misinterpret whatever information is being given to you. Very weird rebuttals like this are becoming a pattern. What is the purpose of this?

Oh such as what? Because not one of you has said anything of any value at all.

Gohan is Super Saiyan Blue level because....why? Oh because Piccolo said that the Gamma's are on par with Goku and Vegeta and he's clearly referring to this particular form that's in the middle? Orange Piccolo being on par with Goku actually includes this form when it was said in this particular circumstance? Gohan clearly got some rage boost and power creep has made him this level based on absolutely nothing?

Do any of you actually have something that isn't just a complete assumption or nonsense?

[Hugo Boss]

The silver haired and silver eyed Goku shown briefly following its recent appearance in the anime as Ultra Instinct....you're going with that not actually being Ultra Instinct? He was just going from red to blue and in that moment just happened to briefly show silver? That is what you've decided to go with?

That’s not Ultra Instinct, it’s just a side effect of the auras animation in the Super Saiyan transformations. For instance, Vegeta’s hair also was briefly green, but you don’t see people claiming he was using the berserker form, right?

Oh such as what? Because not one of you has said anything of any value at all.

Gohan is Super Saiyan Blue level because....why? Oh because Piccolo said that the Gamma's are on par with Goku and Vegeta and he's clearly referring to this particular form that's in the middle? Orange Piccolo being on par with Goku actually includes this form when it was said in this particular circumstance? Gohan clearly got some rage boost and power creep has made him this level based on absolutely nothing?

Do any of you actually have something that isn't just a complete assumption or nonsense?

I think what Cipher says about this matter perfectly applies to this case.

Spoiler:

Gohan getting his groove back was a plot done twice in the DBS anime, in fact (post-RoF and for the ToP).

Gohan just can't stop getting his groove back.

I think mostly it's just an amusing reflection of the disparate parts of Super at this point. Toriyama wasn't aware of what the TV writers were doing, they weren't aware of what each other were doing, Toriyama wasn't all that invested in what Gohan did in the ToP arc in either version, and he began writing the plot for this movie during production of Broly, intending for it to be something that appealed broadly to audiences coming off of the films.

The result is that Gohan gets his groove back a comical number of times across the various mediums for Super, and we kind of just have to shrug and roll with it. The kind of larger audiences a film like this is intended for have never been in the nitty gritty of either serialized version of Super and won't notice. Hope the film is fun!

The community has Ultimate Gohan in Super Saiyan Blue level because that’s how both the serialized versions portrayed him. Of course, Goku gets stronger and leaves Gohan behind again, so Gohan’s ultimate form won’t be Super Saiyan Blue level for long. Meanwhile, according to Toriyama, Piccolo finally obtained strength on par with Goku, at least for now.

It stands to reason that the comment about Orange Piccolo being on par with Goku (2022) comes 5 years later than the one that was written in the film (Gammas being on par with Goku - 2017), so there you have different Gokus being used as measure stick.

[QuakingStar]

he seems to have an anti-Gohan agenda. I think it might be best if we all ignore him.

Grow up .

No, it wasn’t Ultra Instinct. It was just Goku transitioning from Super Saiyan God to Super Saiyan Blue.

The silver haired and silver eyed Goku shown briefly following its recent appearance in the anime as Ultra Instinct....you're going with that not actually being Ultra Instinct? He was just going from red to blue and in that moment just happened to briefly show silver? That is what you've decided to go with?

But honestly, at this point, it just seems that you are trying to misinterpret whatever information is being given to you. Very weird rebuttals like this are becoming a pattern. What is the purpose of this?

Oh such as what? Because not one of you has said anything of any value at all.

Gohan is Super Saiyan Blue level because....why? Oh because Piccolo said that the Gamma's are on par with Goku and Vegeta and he's clearly referring to this particular form that's in the middle? Orange Piccolo being on par with Goku actually includes this form when it was said in this particular circumstance? Gohan clearly got some rage boost and power creep has made him this level based on absolutely nothing?

Do any of you actually have something that isn't just a complete assumption or nonsense?

You'll tell me to grow up, then try to say Goku almost used UI in the movie based on his hair and eyes going silver for a second. So what you are telling me now is that Vegeta almost went Legendary Super Saiyan because his hair turned green for a second? You're actually very bad at this, and resort to "Gohan isn't Super Saiyan Blue level because I think and say so" with no ACTUAL proof or good logic to it, while I and others have already given proof or good logic to it. YOU are the one that needs to grow up

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Wasn't it also said by someone on the production staff that the colour change during Goku's SSB power-up sequence in the Broly movie was just as a neat nod to Ultra Instinct and not really anything of note?

[Koitsukai]

We all know the first SS was Launch, and the first SSB of the franchise was Z Broly...

[Kazuya Mishima]

That’s not Ultra Instinct, it’s just a side effect of the auras animation in the Super Saiyan transformations. For instance, Vegeta’s hair also was briefly green, but you don’t see people claiming he was using the berserker form, right?

It was obviously Ultra Instinct. There was no "side effect", it was no coincidence, it was a very clear tease to the newest form that Goku had shown the same year that Broly came out. Vegeta's Green Hair was also something that was done intentionally but it didn't look a thing like the Berserker form.

The community has Ultimate Gohan in Super Saiyan Blue level because that’s how both the serialized versions portrayed him. Of course, Goku gets stronger and leaves Gohan behind again, so Gohan’s ultimate form won’t be Super Saiyan Blue level for long. Meanwhile, according to Toriyama, Piccolo finally obtained strength on par with Goku, at least for now.

Neither truly portrayed him as such. The anime went as far as showing Gohan fight Goku in Blue form and appeared to do alright. That only means so much when so did Krillin and Android 17 too. A guide even said that only Frieza was as strong as Goku.

The manga's most blatant comparison is with how he compared to Goku against Saganbo of which Goku was clearly far superior.

Even those Wafer Stickers, though merely stickers are still an official product that has more say than anyone in the community has Ultimate Gohan below Super Saiyan God Goku.

[Kazuya Mishima]

[quote=QuakingStar post_id=1772514 time=1698589580 user_id=123912
So what you are telling me now is that Vegeta almost went Legendary Super Saiyan because his hair turned green for a second?[/quote]

....No. Grow up.

while I and others have already given proof or good logic to it. YOU are the one that needs to grow up

You've given nothing, out of everyone here you are the one who has been the most worthless to the discussion . The only "proof" lies in the stickers and the Moro arc showing that Ultimate Gohan being inferior to Super Saiyan Blue Goku against Saganbo.

[QuakingStar]

[quote=QuakingStar post_id=1772514 time=1698589580 user_id=123912
So what you are telling me now is that Vegeta almost went Legendary Super Saiyan because his hair turned green for a second?

while I and others have already given proof or good logic to it. YOU are the one that needs to grow up

You've given nothing, out of everyone here you are the one who has been the most worthless to the discussion . The only "proof" lies in the stickers and the Moro arc showing that Ultimate Gohan being inferior to Super Saiyan Blue Goku against Saganbo.
[/quote]

Nah you're the one who's given proof of nothing, and are the most worthless debater in this discussion here. You also want to bring up STICKERS? I knew I couldn't take you serious and you want to tell ME to grow up. What's next, want to use some DBS action figures as proof of something???

Ok let's try this again, the movie has lines fed to clearly indicate the Gammas levels, which is to compare them to Goku and Vegeta in strength and does it mean UI and UE? Hell no, because Ultimate Gohan is barely stronger than them and he is defintely not UI and UE level. Orange Piccolo is directly said to be on par with Goku by Toriyama and he zero difs the Gamma. to be on par with Goku would mean to rival him in power. This means Orange Piccolo rivals UI Goku IN POWER. Ult Gohan had evolved his Ultimate State in the anime to be on par with SSB Goku, which does not mean equal, it means rival which also does not mean the SAME. Goku was still stronger, but does this mean Gohan wasn't SSB level? No. In the manga version, he ends up tying SS Kefla who is stronger than Kale, who was giving Golden Frieza a beating and forcing Goku to struggle at blocking her attacks hence his forehead veins. Gohan evolved his Ultimate States power, and this was the goal in the anime as Piccolo states, and it was the result in the manga. He goes on to continue training up to the Moro Arc, whereas Goku gets trained to control his UIO state and gets much stronger. Gohan and Piccolo train and also get much stronger, though he is clearly still weaker than Goku was AT THAT TIME. Gohan gets a rage boost, which more than likely kept his power higher as he continues to evoled while he is in the Ultimate State as we see in the ToP.

The Gammas are above 17, taking his title as Ultimate Androids. 17 was definitely Blue level as Goku's lines after the ToP show 17 wasn't much weaker than him. Ultimate Gohan is stronger than the Gammas who are being compared to the current Goku and Vegeta, does this mean the Gammas are EXACTLY as strong as SSB Goku and Vegeta? No. Are they SSB Goku and Vegeta level? Yes. Does this mean Gohan is SSB Goku and Vegeta level in SH? Yes. Does this mean GOHAN is the same strength as SSB Goku and Vegeta? No.

You seem to think being on par or rivaling somebody means the exact same strength, it most certainly does not. Does Gohan still being weaker mean he wasn't the current SSB level of power? Hell no.

Orange Piccolo is on par with UI Goku in power.
Ultimate Gohan and Ultimate Piccolo are on par with the Gammas who are on par with SSB Goku and Vegeta in power.'
I can see you don't LIKE it, but that's too bad and you will have to get over it.

[QuakingStar]

We all know the first SS was Launch, and the first SSB of the franchise was Z Broly...

I love it

[Kazuya Mishima]

Nah you're the one who's given proof of nothing, and are the most worthless debater in this discussion here.

See that you keep copying what I say and parroting it back to me....you're just proving my point.

You also want to bring up STICKERS?

An official licensed product. They know better than you.

Ok let's try this again, the movie has lines fed to clearly indicate the Gammas levels, which is to compare them to Goku and Vegeta in strength and does it mean UI and UE? Hell no, because Ultimate Gohan is barely stronger than them and he is defintely not UI and UE level.

And this is why your whole point falls to pieces. So they're said to be on par with Goku and Vegeta but they can't specifically be referring to Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego because...you don't want Ultimate Gohan to be that strong.

Why is Gohan definitely not that level? Rage boosts and power creep right?

No it can't be referring to those forms. It also can't be referring to regular Super Saiyan because you don't want that either. Apparently it must specifically be referring to Super Saiyan Blue just because.

Orange Piccolo is directly said to be on par with Goku by Toriyama and he zero difs the Gamma.to be on par with Goku would mean to rival him in power. This means Orange Piccolo rivals UI Goku IN POWER.

So now the rules have suddenly changed. When the Gamma's are said to be on par it must mean they're as strong as form X but when Orange Piccolo is said to be on par then it must mean he's as strong as form Y.

This is the drivel I'm on about. Pick and choose nonsense.

Does this mean Gohan is SSB Goku and Vegeta level in SH? Yes.

No, no it doesn't.... All it would mean is that Gohan is slighter stronger than the Gamma's who were an unknown amount stronger than Android 17 who was still weaker than Super Saiyan Blue Goku...in the Tournament of Power.

Goku in Super Hero is not Goku during the Tournament of Power. Goku is vastly more powerful by that point as the Moro arc showed he was in a whole other league from Android 17 and then by the next arc he could combine Ultra Instinct with it to make it superior still.

Did you just not read any of this at all or something?

[QuakingStar]

You really are obtuse. Why the hell would they possibly be referring to Super Saiyan? Nothing supports that, no inferrence, no conflation, no implications. Everyone here has already stated why it's more likely to be SSB level. YOU are the only one who comes out of nowhere with the "No gaiz it can't possibwy be Super Saiyan Blue level" and "Gaiz Goku went Silver that totally has to be Ultra Instinct there".

You in actuality haven't brought a single shred of evidence at all for your claims, and everyone here disagrees with you BECAUSE your claims are so bad and unfounded.

Oh, and Officially Licensed means canon? You are probably the worst debater I've seen on here in a long time.

I find it quite hilarious actually. I am waiting for you to prove Gohan and the Gammas AREN'T Super Saiyan Blue level in SH. Not that you THINK they aren't.

So let's summarize this.
You think Goku almost went Ultra Instinct in the Broly movie(he most definitely did not)
You think Gohan SH isn't Super Saiyan Blue level, meaning the Gammas aren't that level either based on............. actually nothing(even though his Ultimate State continues to evolve and he was rage boosted when he entered it, which as PROVEN the Ultimate State makes Gohan get stronger while he is in it through battle.)
You think SS Kefla wasn't SSB level, despite a weaker Kale pressuring SSB Goku to the point he was straining and had veins in his forehead.
You think on par means exactly the same strength, and rival means exactly the same strength.
You think some wafer cards are canon because they are Officially Licensed products.
You think because Gohan had stopped training sometime before SH that means he didn't train after the Moro arc.
You think that Gohans Ultimate State can't possibly have gotten stronger, that he can't possibly have gotten power creep with it. Based on nothing.

I'll be here while you struggle and can't find jack shit to prove your nonsense claim outside of a wafer sticker

[Hugo Boss]

It was obviously Ultra Instinct. There was no "side effect", it was no coincidence, it was a very clear tease to the newest form that Goku had shown the same year that Broly came out. Vegeta's Green Hair was also something that was done intentionally but it didn't look a thing like the Berserker form.

I suggest you watch this video. Ajay extensively talks about this matter and so far this remains an artistic choice.

Neither truly portrayed him as such. The anime went as far as showing Gohan fight Goku in Blue form and appeared to do alright. That only means so much when so did Krillin and Android 17 too. A guide even said that only Frieza was as strong as Goku.

Ultimate Gohan and 17 were equally matched, according to Toshio, and with Super Saiyan Blue from the recruitment episodes. Goku then trains with Whis in the gravity chamber and gets even stronger. That reflects on his Super Saiyan Blue form being stronger and equal to Golden Freeza. The preview you are talking about is just about the very beginning of the ToP, so it doesn't take into account the fruits of Vegeta’s training in the RoSaT either.

Spoiler:

Toshio also ranked Vegeta between Goku and Freeza by the time episode 99 aired (Goku=Vegeta=Freeza > Gohan=17).

The manga's most blatant comparison is with how he compared to Goku against Saganbo of which Goku was clearly far superior.

Super Hero was scripted prior to Moro arc, so there are things that don’t align perfectly. Gohan being stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the films is one of them.

Even those Wafer Stickers, though merely stickers are still an official product that has more say than anyone in the community has Ultimate Gohan below Super Saiyan God Goku.

The Super Hero collections have consistently portrayed Ultimate Gohan on Super Saiyan Blue level as well. For instance, this collection in particular has the Gammas on Golden Freeza level after he got weaker. Link to other collections.

The problem is that often the stickers contradict the source material. For example, Ultimate Piccolo (7,700) appears stronger than Ultimate Gohan (7,600) and the Gammas (7,500), despite being a little bit weaker than them. So, I wouldn’t bet my money on them.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Why the hell would they possibly be referring to Super Saiyan?

Why would they be referring to some in the middle form like Super Saiyan Blue? Because apparently.

The Gammas are on par with Goku and Vegeta.....just so long as you don't count them at their true level of strength...or the next form down....but not too low either.

No they're as strong as Goku and Vegeta just so long as it's this specific form in the middle which is convenient for me lol.

Everyone here has already stated why it's more likely to be SSB level.

And look how terrible those reasons have been. "Likely" is basically an assumption then. You assume he's Blue level. You don't actually know then do you?

You in actuality haven't brought a single shred of evidence at all for your claims, and everyone here disagrees with you BECAUSE your claims are so bad and unfounded.

I don't care what other people think. Just because you have that sheep mentality doesn't mean I have to. You nor anyone else has anything.

Oh, and Officially Licensed means canon?

No. It means it's a licensed product. An official Dragon Ball product created by those that are in the Dragon Ball business.

They have decided that Ultimate Gohan is not as strong as Super Saiyan Blue.

It doesn't really matter what your opinion is on it. You are nobody. A person on a forum.

You waffled on for the rest which drivel like this

You think SS Kefla wasn't SSB level, despite a weaker Kale pressuring SSB Goku to the point he was straining and had veins in his forehead.

Ooooh a vein. A vein that Goku had three entire arcs ago when his strength was dirt compared to what it is now. Such proof lol.

You can have one more attempt because you come across as way too childish and then I'll pay more attention to someone more grown up instead.

[VegettoEX]

Why are you folks cruel to each other over such a relatively harmless subject? Don't you want anyone to actually listen to what you're saying? I know I sure as heck wouldn't consider anything you've written if I had a horse in the race. It must be extremely embarrassing, but I don't think you even realize it!

[Kazuya Mishima]

Ajay extensively talks about this matter and so far this remains an artistic choice.

No offense to him but Ajay knows nothing.

It was not an artistic choice to briefly show Goku with silver hair and silver eyes the very same year he debuted a highly popular new form with silver hair and silver eyes.

Ultimate Gohan and 17 were equally matched, according to Toshio, and with Super Saiyan Blue from the recruitment episodes.

When was it ever said they were equal to Goku during the recruitment episodes?

"Toshio Yoshitaka, a script writer for Dragon Ball Super, noted that he believed Android 17 was the third strongest on the initial Team Universe 7 from at the point of episode 92 (before Frieza joins) - only being weaker than Goku and Vegeta......Yoshitaka later stated that Goku utilizing Super Saiyan Blue in his recruitment of the initial members of Team Universe 7 was simply to gauge and motivate his opponents - specifically noting Android 17."

Super Hero was scripted prior to Moro arc, so there are things that don’t align perfectly.

Which was understandable but now the manga has continued and ran through those arcs we know more.

Taking into account that Ultimate Gohan wasn't anywhere at all close in power to Super Saiyan Blue Goku during the fight with Saganbo.

That Gohan almost surely stopped training again following that arc seeing as he did believe the idea of another enemy showing up was unlikely.

And that Goku continued to train with Whis and can now use Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan Blue.

What is there to suggest that Ultimate Gohan is anywhere close to Super Saiyan Blue Goku's level currently in the manga?

The problem is that often the stickers contradict the source material. For example, Ultimate Piccolo (7,700) appears stronger than Ultimate Gohan (7,600) and the Gammas (7,500), despite being a little bit weaker than them. So, I wouldn’t bet my money on them.

Oh they aren't the gospel truth on them. Of course there's problems, they also vary between packs but clear thought has been put into them.

Generally Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been higher than Ultimate Gohan.

I know I sure as heck wouldn't consider anything you've written if I had a horse in the race.

Which you don't so don't concern yourself with it.

[QuakingStar]

Ok, so you essentially admitted it was your headcanon and that's how you like it. That's all you had to say kiddo, and just because nobody else is jumping on your headcanon bandwagon doesn't mean you get to be rude and asinine to everybody including the Moderator VegettoEX. Maybe you should go outside and take a chill pill bud.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Ok, so you essentially admitted

That you have absolutely nothing and all your so called evidence is completely useless yes.

I have no head canon because I gave no head canon. You spouted a bunch of nonsense that you seem to believe is evidence and I explained why it was nonsense.

You have nothing but assumptions and your own personal interpretations based on vague comments.

If you don't believe that the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Goku then you don't believe they are on par with Goku. Making the comment worthless.

[QuakingStar]

Ok, so you essentially admitted

That you have absolutely nothing and all your so called evidence is completely useless yes.

I have no head canon because I gave no head canon. You spouted a bunch of nonsense that you seem to believe is evidence and I explained why it was nonsense.

You have nothing but assumptions and your own personal interpretations based on vague comments.

If you don't believe that the Gammas are as strong as Ultra Instinct Goku then you don't believe they are on par with Goku. Making the comment worthless.

Nah, my comments and those other peoples comments were where common sense came in. Yours was essentially nothing, literally. You just said "Nuh uh, cause I said so" that's it. Then tried to use wafer cards as proof of something. I mean I guess you were slightly entertaining?? Good job bud.