Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kazuya Mishima]

Nah, my comments and those other peoples comments were where common sense came in

Even this sentence barely makes any sense lol. You seem very fixated on other people's opinions. Like I said you have that sheep/mob mentality as though you have no real opinion of your own. "X amount of people said this so it must be true".

You just said "Nuh uh, cause I said so" that's it.

I said no because your attempt at giving evidence was complete drivel. You had nothing. A lot of assumptions and nonsense about veins from five story arcs ago and buzz words like rage boosts and power creeps.

Ultimate Gohan wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the Moro arc. That is a fact. Goku continued to train and his Super Saiyan Blue significantly improved. Gohan more than likely stopped training. That is a fact.

Then tried to use wafer cards as proof of something.

I didn't try to do that, I did do that.

[Hugo Boss]

It was not an artistic choice to briefly show Goku with silver hair and silver eyes the very same year he debuted a highly popular new form with silver hair and silver eyes.

Seeing the comment section of the video, I can see where this notion comes from, but the description of the scene in the storyboard merely says “He changes into Super Saiyan Blue in one burst”. There is no mention of Ultra Instinct. Nothing whatsoever implies Goku was attempting it. It’s quite surprising that you’re not the only one that believes this, I must admit.

When was it ever said they were equal to Goku during the recruitment episodes?

In the beginning of episode 91: “Gohan showed power that rivals Goku’s” next to a scene of Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they were exchanging blows evenly.

"Toshio Yoshitaka, a script writer for Dragon Ball Super, noted that he believed Android 17 was the third strongest on the initial Team Universe 7 from at the point of episode 92 (before Frieza joins) - only being weaker than Goku and Vegeta......Yoshitaka later stated that Goku utilizing Super Saiyan Blue in his recruitment of the initial members of Team Universe 7 was simply to gauge and motivate his opponents - specifically noting Android 17."

You left out the most important: “Yoshitaka later went on to state that from his point of view, Android 17 was equal to Gohan in strength and both were stronger than Frost and Piccolo.”. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from episode 92 are stronger than Ultimate Gohan and 17, because they trained in episode 91.

Taking into account that Ultimate Gohan wasn't anywhere at all close in power to Super Saiyan Blue Goku during the fight with Saganbo.

That Gohan almost surely stopped training again following that arc seeing as he did believe the idea of another enemy showing up was unlikely.

And that Goku continued to train with Whis and can now use Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan Blue.

What is there to suggest that Ultimate Gohan is anywhere close to Super Saiyan Blue Goku's level currently in the manga?

None of those developments are accounted, because they were written after Super Hero’s script was finished. The Super Saiyan Blue level we are talking about is from Broly’s movie.

Generally Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been higher than Ultimate Gohan.

That is only the case if you compare different collections, but you don’t see Super Saiyan Blue stronger than Super Hero Gohan in the only collection they appear together. Although personally I think they got wrong the pecking order between the Gammas, Gohan and Piccolo. Piccolo should have 7,500, while the Gammas 7,600 and Gohan 7,700. That way the Gammas would be equal to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta from RoF.

[QuakingStar]

It was not an artistic choice to briefly show Goku with silver hair and silver eyes the very same year he debuted a highly popular new form with silver hair and silver eyes.

Seeing the comment section of the video, I can see where this notion comes from, but the description of the scene in the storyboard merely says “He changes into Super Saiyan Blue in one burst”. There is no mention of Ultra Instinct. Nothing whatsoever implies Goku was attempting it. It’s quite surprising that you’re not the only one that believes this, I must admit.

When was it ever said they were equal to Goku during the recruitment episodes?

In the beginning of episode 91: “Gohan showed power that rivals Goku’s” next to a scene of Ultimate Gohan vs. Super Saiyan Blue Goku when they were exchanging blows evenly.

"Toshio Yoshitaka, a script writer for Dragon Ball Super, noted that he believed Android 17 was the third strongest on the initial Team Universe 7 from at the point of episode 92 (before Frieza joins) - only being weaker than Goku and Vegeta......Yoshitaka later stated that Goku utilizing Super Saiyan Blue in his recruitment of the initial members of Team Universe 7 was simply to gauge and motivate his opponents - specifically noting Android 17."

You left out the most important: “Yoshitaka later went on to state that from his point of view, Android 17 was equal to Gohan in strength and both were stronger than Frost and Piccolo.”. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from episode 92 are stronger than Ultimate Gohan and 17, because they trained in episode 91.

Taking into account that Ultimate Gohan wasn't anywhere at all close in power to Super Saiyan Blue Goku during the fight with Saganbo.

That Gohan almost surely stopped training again following that arc seeing as he did believe the idea of another enemy showing up was unlikely.

And that Goku continued to train with Whis and can now use Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan Blue.

What is there to suggest that Ultimate Gohan is anywhere close to Super Saiyan Blue Goku's level currently in the manga?

None of those developments are accounted, because they were written after Super Hero’s script was finished. The Super Saiyan Blue level we are talking about is from Broly’s movie.

Generally Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been higher than Ultimate Gohan.

That is only the case if you compare different collections, but you don’t see Super Saiyan Blue stronger than Super Hero Gohan in the only collection they appear together. Although personally I think they got wrong the pecking order between the Gammas, Gohan and Piccolo. Piccolo should have 7,500, while the Gammas 7,600 and Gohan 7,700. That way the Gammas would be equal to Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta from RoF.

Hugo, you're right. He's wrong. He hates to admit it, and he instead wants to try and attack others over it. Literally everybody here has countered his bs arguments already and he keeps going on and on. I find it funny how triggered he is that I pointed it out though lol

[Kazuya Mishima]

Seeing the comment section of the video, I can see where this notion comes from, but the description of the scene in the storyboard merely says “He changes into Super Saiyan Blue in one burst”.

Well that's not happened anyway. There was no "one burst". It was a drawn out scene where they specifically went out of their way to show Goku with silver hair and silver eyes for just a second.

Not even like what was done with Vegeta where he was transforming and showed green hair briefly below becoming Super Saiyan.

They showed Goku as a Super Saiyan God, specifically zoomed in to show a tease of Ultra Instinct before going back to showing him as a Super Saiyan God before then becoming Super Saiyan Blue. It wasn't while he was transitioning from one form to another. It was an obvious tease at Ultra Instinct, a widely popular form that debuted the very same year the Broly movie released.

You left out the most important: “Yoshitaka later went on to state that from his point of view, Android 17 was equal to Gohan in strength and both were stronger than Frost and Piccolo.”. SSB Goku and SSB Vegeta from episode 92 are stronger than Ultimate Gohan and 17, because they trained in episode 91.

Android 17 can be as strong as Gohan. Goku trained for a couple hours that's about it. Either way

1. It was noted these characters holding their own against Goku in the recruitment episodes was just Goku holding back so doesn't mean Android 17 was at his level in either Episode 91 or 92.

2. If Goku was stronger than Gohan and 17 in Episode 92....then Gohan isn't as strong as Goku like I said anyway.

None of those developments are accounted, because they were written after Super Hero’s script was finished. The Super Saiyan Blue level we are talking about is from Broly’s movie.

That's irrelevant. It's also the Blue level YOU are talking about. I've been talking about the current situation the whole time or I wouldn't have mentioned Moro, Saganbo etc.

I'm not making these comments in July 2022 I'm making them now when the manga has told a more complete story. The manga is still written the same as the movie isn't it?

I'm talking right now as things are currently with what we know. Knowing Super Saiyan Blue Goku was drastically stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Moro arc, knowing Goku continued to train for years with Whis and Vegeta, knowing he can use Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan Blue and knowing that Gohan more than likely stopped training or at least certainly didn't train nearly as seriously as Goku....do you think Ultimate Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku with Ultra Instinct?

Generally Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been higher than Ultimate

They may vary and not have the best consistency between but overall Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been above 8,000. Plus your link only showed Vegeta and not Goku. Yes I know the two are practically the same but Goku has been higher than Vegeta on such cards in the past.

Literally everybody here

Sheep mentality again lol.

[VegettoEX]

This is a formal free warning and reminder that the recent conversation does not live up to the spirit of the Kanzenshuu community guidelines. The moderation team will issue strikes and/or account bans moving forward for users/posts that do not align with guidelines.

[Hugo Boss]

It was an obvious tease at Ultra Instinct, a widely popular form that debuted the very same year the Broly movie released.

I don’t deny it looks so much like Ultra Instinct, but I honestly prefer to not give a second thought to what is literally a second of the movie. If Nagamine had the intention to tease Ultra Instinct, he did it on his own behalf. There is no text-form evidence in the script, storyboard or novelization about this. Anyway, if that was really an attempt of using Ultra Instinct, Goku failed to do so, suggesting he couldn’t make use of it at that time.

1. It was noted these characters holding their own against Goku in the recruitment episodes was just Goku holding back so doesn't mean Android 17 was at his level in either Episode 91 or 92.

2. If Goku was stronger than Gohan and 17 in Episode 92....then Gohan isn't as strong as Goku like I said anyway.

The fact that SSB Goku got stronger than Ultimate Gohan in a couple of hours doesn’t suggest Gohan wasn’t in Super Saiyan Blue tier either, which is what we were discussing, right?

Gohan lost to Goku using his full power in the form of Kaioken, which he activated in response to Gohan’s requests. Goku didn’t go that far against 17, because he was just testing him, like you said, but if 17 at full power is as strong as Ultimate Gohan, then 17 is as strong as SSB Goku from episode 90 as well. That doesn’t contradict the fact that Goku was holding his full power back.

That's irrelevant. It's also the Blue level YOU are talking about. I've been talking about the current situation the whole time or I wouldn't have mentioned Moro, Saganbo etc.

I'm not making these comments in July 2022 I'm making them now when the manga has told a more complete story. The manga is still written the same as the movie isn't it?

I'm talking right now as things are currently with what we know. Knowing Super Saiyan Blue Goku was drastically stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Moro arc, knowing Goku continued to train for years with Whis and Vegeta, knowing he can use Ultra Instinct with Super Saiyan Blue and knowing that Gohan more than likely stopped training or at least certainly didn't train nearly as seriously as Goku....do you think Ultimate Gohan is as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku with Ultra Instinct?

Technically, you are not wrong. Super Hero Ultimate Gohan should be much weaker than SSB Goku from Moro and Granolah arcs. Reason being the film was scripted prior to those arcs. Despite the manga adaptation making adjustments here and there, this is one of the things I don’t believe Toyotato will address directly. He respects Toriyama too much to make such a correction. That’s why the line about the Gammas being equal to Goku and Vegeta was kept, despite its original intention. But I don’t forget that Toyotaro also moved away with the entire Saiyan Beyond God plot point and Toriyama later got along with it, so I won’t rule this case out entirely.

They may vary and not have the best consistency between but overall Super Saiyan Blue Goku has always been above 8,000. Plus your link only showed Vegeta and not Goku. Yes I know the two are practically the same but Goku has been higher than Vegeta on such cards in the past.

The collection I linked doesn’t have Goku, because he isn’t in it, but if this was the case and he was a little bit stronger than Vegeta, then his number would probably be 7,700, which would be about the same as Ultimate Gohan should have in Super Hero.

Best case scenario, Super Hero Goku as SSB would have 8,100, since SS Broly and Cell Max in their most recent collections appeared with 8,200. That would conveniently be the same as Orange Piccolo.

Anyway, Super Saiyan God in a collection that Super Saiyan Blue has 7,600 should be 7,500 at best, not the usual 7.600 or 7,700, unless one admits those forms had the same strength in RoF.

[QuakingStar]

Yeah the Gamma's being "on par" line was kept in the current arc in the manga, because they are. Goku and Vegeta only left Earth 3 weeks prior didn't they? Prior to this, Piccolo also sensed SSG Goku's power vs Wrath State Broly's power in the Broly movie and commented on it. Jiren and Frieza do not possess God ki yet they already showed they could sense it as well so training to be able to sense God Ki is a well established thing. Does the Gamma line include UI and UE? More than likely no. In the Moro Arc UI was treated like SSGod was originally with not a soul outside of Vegeta, Dende, Whis and Beerus able to sense it. While with the lower God forms it wasn't presented that way.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Something I've seen a lot of folks in other places (not around here, mostly) bring up is the idea that, because Piccolo can't sense Gamma 1 and 2's artificial Ki, he somehow can't get an accurate gauge of their power.

This, I feel, is a fairly flawed angle to approach this debate from.

He's a master martial artist, and they can gauge someone's strength just from analyzing how the person they're fighting is doing, how much they can feel them holding back, etc.

Sure, the likes of Vegeta and whatnot tend to get in over their heads at refusing to accept the power difference, but they tend to get a pretty good idea of how strong their opponents are even without sensing their Ki.

[QuakingStar]

Something I've seen a lot of folks in other places (not around here, mostly) bring up is the idea that, because Piccolo can't sense Gamma 1 and 2's artificial Ki, he somehow can't get an accurate gauge of their power.

This, I feel, is a fairly flawed angle to approach this debate from.

He's a master martial artist, and they can gauge someone's strength just from analyzing how the person they're fighting is doing, how much they can feel them holding back, etc.

Sure, the likes of Vegeta and whatnot tend to get in over their heads at refusing to accept the power difference, but they tend to get a pretty good idea of how strong their opponents are even without sensing their Ki.

This example is seen in the ToP, after seeing 17 fight for a time Goku and Vegeta were able to gauge that he was about as strong as they were. Piccolo directly fighting the Gamma helped him gauge the two as well.

[Issei189]

Even if people wanna ignore Piccolo's comparison or the statement about the Gammas being the mightiest Andriods. We also have the official promotional material which literally states that they're the strongest Andriods and this again puts them above Andriod 17 who's SSB level like the Mightiest Andriods statement.

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

[Thani]

To be fair, not that it matters much, but the second image explicitly states that the Gammas are "the strongest androids created by Dr. Hedo", not in general.

Again, not that it matters, since them being on par with Goku and Vegeta automatically makes them at least on par with 17, if not stronger, depending on where he's located in the power totem.

[Kazuya Mishima]

The fact that SSB Goku got stronger than Ultimate Gohan in a couple of hours doesn’t suggest Gohan wasn’t in Super Saiyan Blue tier either, which is what we were discussing, right?

Not particularly, I'm talking about where things stand currently for the most part. At best all we know is that in the anime only, Ultimate Gohan rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Goku, a version of him that seemingly held back during the recruitment episodes.

He was not as strong as Goku during the Tournament of Power, anime or manga and was not in the Moro arc or since.

Technically, you are not wrong. Super Hero Ultimate Gohan should be much weaker than SSB Goku from Moro and Granolah arcs. Reason being the film was scripted prior to those arcs.

Exactly. The point being that these "on par" lines don't mean anything. Certainly not now and was pretty dubious even taking when it was written into account.

Currently the Gamma's being on par with Goku and Vegeta should mean they would be as strong as Ultra Instinct and Ultra Ego. You could say Piccolo doesn't know about the latter and may not be counting the former but it should still count Ultra Instinct Sign and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

So Ultimate Gohan should be that strong if people want to truly believe the line but instead people have played pick and choose and landed on Super Saiyan Blue instead.

Even taking into account when the movie was written those forms still existed in the anime which the movie did reference. If Jiren exists then Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution must exist but as I said people just want to pick and choose.

The Gamma's and Orange Piccolo have both been said to be on par with Goku despite both being shown as far apart so these comments don't mean much of anything.

The only thing that really matters is that we know that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Moro arc and we know Goku improved a lot whereas Gohan seemingly stopped training.

[Kazuya Mishima]

Even if people wanna ignore Piccolo's comparison or the statement about the Gammas being the mightiest Andriods. We also have the official promotional material which literally states that they're the strongest Andriods and this again puts them above Andriod 17 who's SSB level like the Mightiest Andriods statement.

Android 17 isn't Super Saiyan Blue.

Android 17 is weaker than Ultimate Gohan. The two of them along with Piccolo and Android 18 combined were far surpassed by Saganbo. Super Saiyan Blue Goku beat the tar out of him and that was with getting even more power from Moro.

Goku's trained for years since then, he can use Ultra Instinct with the form which has allowed him to put up fights against Granolah and Gas who are above the likes of Broly and Jiren.

Just because the Gamma's are "mightier" than Android 17 doesn't mean they wouldn't get the shit kicked out of them by even Saganbo. Android 17 wouldn't last a second against Goku in Super Hero.

Saying he's Super Saiyan Blue level is like saying saying Dr Gero is Super Saiyan level. He was on par with a Super Saiyan, many years and story arcs ago. He's not Super Saiyan level now just like Android 17 and Ultimate Gohan aren't Super Saiyan Blue level now.

[Hugo Boss]

Not particularly, I'm talking about where things stand currently for the most part. At best all we know is that in the anime only, Ultimate Gohan rivalled Super Saiyan Blue Goku, a version of him that seemingly held back during the recruitment episodes.

He was not as strong as Goku during the Tournament of Power, anime or manga and was not in the Moro arc or since.

We already understand how Goku from Moro and Granolah arcs are much stronger than Goku from Tournament of Power and the two DBS films. We get that..

You are halfway correct though. Goku didn’t hold back against Gohan in episode 90, not when requested to fight at full power, multiple times. Therefore, that Gohan would probably beat some versions of Super Saiyan Blue, from RoF to Champa arc, at least. That makes him one of the characters that you can insert in the wide Super Saiyan Blue tier.

The point being that these "on par" lines don't mean anything. Certainly not now and was pretty dubious even taking when it was written into account.

They certainly mean something in the context they were written, that the Gammas would be about as strong as Goku and Vegeta from Broly film. You don’t take into account what was written after that.

So Ultimate Gohan should be that strong if people want to truly believe the line but instead people have played pick and choose and landed on Super Saiyan Blue instead.

It’s not pick and choose when you know Super Saiyan Blue is Goku’s strongest freely accessible form in the DBS films.

Even taking into account when the movie was written those forms still existed in the anime which the movie did reference. If Jiren exists then Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution must exist but as I said people just want to pick and choose.

Ultra Instinct and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution are not accounted because Goku and Vegeta can’t access or maintain those forms in the context the film was written. See that timeline placement is not a factor here.

The Gamma's and Orange Piccolo have both been said to be on par with Goku despite both being shown as far apart so these comments don't mean much of anything.

Different contexts, 5 years of difference between when they were written.

The only thing that really matters is that we know that Super Saiyan Blue Goku is far stronger than Ultimate Gohan in the Moro arc and we know Goku improved a lot whereas Gohan seemingly stopped training.

We are not saying this doesn’t matter, okay? For some people, it should be interesting to discuss how Super Hero characters would fair against Jiren or Moro, but for this discussion in particular, we are just talking about characters that can be included in the Super Saiyan Blue tier without harming whatever idea of Super Saiyan Blue that person may have, be it the initial versions or the improved versions.

[QuakingStar]

Ok and here's the issue with that.

The lines are essentially the same in the Manga SH arc thereby meaning Toriyama's statement on Orange Piccolo shouldn't change regardless.

This means the Gammas are still comparable to Goku and Vegeta, but you have to use logic to understand that if Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku according to Toriyama himself this would mean at their full powers in that case otherwise that statement doesn't make sense for Orange Piccolo.

With the two Gammas being weaker than Orange Piccolo, and weaker by a small bit than Ultimate Gohan there is no way that the Gammas are on the level of UI or UE and the Orange Piccolo statement is the reason we can come to that.

Ultimate Gohan and the Gammas are very likely Blue level in SH, they surely wouldn't be referring to the lowest forms of power for Goku and Vegeta when in DBS SSBlue is the new standard form for them, and UI and UE are their new ultimate forms.

[Koitsukai]

-Character A and B are compared to Y and Z.
-Then, A and B are evenly matched with C and D.
-C and D unlock a new form, and now, as C+ and D+ they are as strong as Y and Z, according to the author.

Character A cannot be as strong as C+, because we've seen them struggle with regular C, needless to say C+ destroys character A. But Y and Z were used ambiguously to gauge A and B, and also to gauge C+ and D+.
Now we have to use our neocortex to fill in the gaps. So, which one is it, Z equals A or C+? cannot be both.

We do know character Z has 3 levels of power, the blond, the god and the ultra forms. So, it would make sense that the two strongest levels were used in the comparison.
Since the brand new powers were compared to C+ and D+, then it's a no-brainer: Ultra Z equals C+.

Then A and B must be as strong as Y and Z's god form. Why not their blond forms? because that level of power wouldn't be a problem, there are several characters who are as strong as Y and Z's blond level, the reaction of the main characters was that the villains were too strong to deal with.
We've also seen character C+ fight character A. It was over in one blow, however character A was able to recover from that. Something a blond level fighter(android or not) wouldn't be able to do against a ultra level fighter.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

There's also the fact that Gamma 1 easily handles Super Saiyan Gohan without problems.

And if you consider Gohan's forms equivalent to Goku and Vegeta's in terms of the same kinds of forms, and the fact that the previous film established that the next steps up from SS were SSG and SSB, you can get a fairly decent gauge of where things lie.

Superior to SS? About on-par with Goku and Vegeta? Direct sequel to the last film with explicit forms that were used to represent how strong Goku and Vegeta are at their usual best?

Sounds like god-forms to me, and in turn Ultimate Piccolo/Gohan as well.

[QuakingStar]

-Character A and B are compared to Y and Z.
-Then, A and B are evenly matched with C and D.
-C and D unlock a new form, and now, as C+ and D+ they are as strong as Y and Z, according to the author.

Character A cannot be as strong as C+, because we've seen them struggle with regular C, needless to say C+ destroys character A. But Y and Z were used ambiguously to gauge A and B, and also to gauge C+ and D+.
Now we have to use our neocortex to fill in the gaps. So, which one is it, Z equals A or C+? cannot be both.

We do know character Z has 3 levels of power, the blond, the god and the ultra forms. So, it would make sense that the two strongest levels were used in the comparison.
Since the brand new powers were compared to C+ and D+, then it's a no-brainer: Ultra Z equals C+.

Then A and B must be as strong as Y and Z's god form. Why not their blond forms? because that level of power wouldn't be a problem, there are several characters who are as strong as Y and Z's blond level, the reaction of the main characters was that the villains were too strong to deal with.
We've also seen character C+ fight character A. It was over in one blow, however character A was able to recover from that. Something a blond level fighter(android or not) wouldn't be able to do against a ultra level fighter.

Well said. Logically this makes the most sense, especially with the info at our disposal.

[Kazuya Mishima]

They certainly mean something in the context they were written, that the Gammas would be about as strong as Goku and Vegeta from Broly film.

It's not pick and choose when you know Super Saiyan Blue is Goku’s strongest freely accessible form in the DBS films.

But I'm not talking about the films. I'm talking about the manga. The manga is being written right now and Super Saiyan Blue as was seen during the Tournament of Power/Broly isn't Goku's strongest form.

All this stuff is in the past. It doesn't mean squat anymore when it concerns the manga. The line about them being on par with Goku and Vegeta was still written in 2023, said by a Piccolo who has seen that Goku can use Ultra Instinct and Vegeta can use Super Saiyan Blue Evolution.

So either...

1. The Gamma's are on par with Ultra Instinct Goku and Ultra Ego Vegeta currently.

2. The Gamma's are on par with Ultra Instinct or Sign Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta which was when Piccolo last saw them.

3. The comparison is worthless.

"Oh but the line was written back in 20XX and those arcs hadn't been written and context this and context that etc".

None of that matters. Forget the movies ever existed. Going purely by the manga, is Ultimate Gohan on par with Ultra Instinct Goku or not? He's either on par with Goku and his strength should be treated as such or people should ignore the line.

[Kazuya Mishima]

This means the Gammas are still comparable to Goku and Vegeta, but you have to use logic to understand that if Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku according to Toriyama himself this would mean at their full powers in that case otherwise that statement doesn't make sense for Orange Piccolo.

With the two Gammas being weaker than Orange Piccolo, and weaker by a small bit than Ultimate Gohan there is no way that the Gammas are on the level of UI or UE and the Orange Piccolo statement is the reason we can come to that.

Ultimate Gohan and the Gammas are very likely Blue level in SH, they surely wouldn't be referring to the lowest forms of power for Goku and Vegeta when in DBS SSBlue is the new standard form for them, and UI and UE are their new ultimate forms.

And this is exactly what I mean when I say people are just picking and choosing what they think is best for their own personal head canon. This is just assumption and nothing more.

Toriyama wrote the script for Super Hero. He clearly wrote Piccolo as saying that the Gamma's were on par with Goku. The man himself said Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku.

There is no "Well he must mean in this particular instance he's talking about form X but here he must be talking about form Y instead". That's nothing but a convenient excuse.

Either the Gamma's are on par with Goku and Toriyama's comment on Orange Piccolo is wrong. Orange Piccolo is on par with Goku and Piccolo's comment is wrong.

Or rather simply it's just a general comment. Not something to be taken so literally, not to mean they must be equal to this one specific form somewhere in the middle of all the others, just that they are in general on the level of Goku.