If faced with the choice of sacrificing the franchise's massive popularity

[LoganForkHands73]

I thought gatekeeping was a widely understood term, it has little to do with moderation. A gatekeeper is just a specific type of fandom asshole who, without having any actual power to enforce, pushes a non-existent criteria for what makes someone a "real fan" of something.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I thought gatekeeping was a widely understood term, it has little to do with moderation. A gatekeeper is just a specific type of fandom asshole who, without having any actual power to enforce, pushes a non-existent criteria for what makes someone a "real fan" of something.

This tbh. People should know exactly what they are advocating.

[90sDBZ]

To the people who insist they genuinely would be fine sacrificing DB's popularity, and say it's not important I have to ask this;

What if YOU had never heard of it? Think about it. You're making the assumption that you would still have seen it somehow, but realistically the odds of that would be low if it was never popular to begin with.

Wouldn't your lives be at least a little bit worse off without it?

Even if we only mean sacrificing the popularity going forward, that's still millions of potential new fans who would never hear of it, and would likely be worse off for it. This is why I think it's selfish and thoughtless to downplay the importance of DB's popularity. It's effectively saying "If I can't have it nobody will".

I feel like this attitude goes beyond just wanting better home releases. It's pretty obvious there's a real resentment towards the more mainstream side of the fandom.

[ABED]

To the people who insist they genuinely would be fine sacrificing DB's popularity, and say it's not important I have to ask this;

What if YOU had never heard of it? Think about it. You're making the assumption that you would still have seen it somehow, but realistically the odds of that would be low if it was never popular to begin with.

Wouldn't your lives be at least a little bit worse off without it?

Even if we only mean sacrificing the popularity going forward, that's still millions of potential new fans who would never hear of it, and would likely be worse off for it. This is why I think it's selfish and thoughtless to downplay the importance of DB's popularity. It's effectively saying "If I can't have it nobody will".

That's a weird assertion especially nowadays with most entertainment being so segmented. There are so many movies and shows out there with small audiences that people know about.

If I didn't know the series existed, my life wouldn't be worse off without it bc I wouldn't know about it.

There being potentially new fans is wonderful but it's not my or anyone else's concern how popular the show is if they don't have a vested financial interest in it.

And no, it's NOTHING like saying if I can't have it, no one can. This is a huge stretch and it feels like you are shaming people for a hypothetical.

[90sDBZ]

That's a weird assertion especially nowadays with most entertainment being so segmented. There are so many movies and shows out there with small audiences that people know about.

If I didn't know the series existed, my life wouldn't be worse off without it bc I wouldn't know about it.

There being potentially new fans is wonderful but it's not my or anyone else's concern how popular the show is if they don't have a vested financial interest in it.

And no, it's NOTHING like saying if I can't have it, no one can. This is a huge stretch and it feels like you are shaming people for a hypothetical.

Generally speaking popularity and word of mouth go hand in hand. There are exceptions, but the odds of you hearing about something and actually giving it a watch go up significantly when it's actually popular. DB was released in the West as a direct response to its popularity in Japan for example.

And we're not just talking about nowadays but also back when the franchise was first becoming popular. Back then it was even harder to hear about something that wasn't popular. The popularity of the syndication airings lead to the Toonami airings, which introduced the majority of US fans to the show.

If you say your life would be absolutely no different without DB I'll take your word for it. Maybe it really hasn't impacted you that much, but again there are no end of stories of people turning their lives around after becoming fans. Obviously these people would be worse off without it.

It's like the movie It's a Wonderful Life. Everyone in the movie is shown to be worse off without George Bailey. We can see this direct comparison as a viewer. Even if the characters are oblivious to the difference, it doesn't mean that one situation isn't worse than the other.

I'm not shaming people for a hypothetical. Several people in this topic have made it abundantly clear they'd erase DB's popularity in a heartbeat if the power rested with them.

[JulieYBM]

To the people who insist they genuinely would be fine sacrificing DB's popularity, and say it's not important I have to ask this;

What if YOU had never heard of it? Think about it. You're making the assumption that you would still have seen it somehow, but realistically the odds of that would be low if it was never popular to begin with.

Wouldn't your lives be at least a little bit worse off without it?

Even if we only mean sacrificing the popularity going forward, that's still millions of potential new fans who would never hear of it, and would likely be worse off for it. This is why I think it's selfish and thoughtless to downplay the importance of DB's popularity. It's effectively saying "If I can't have it nobody will".

I feel like this attitude goes beyond just wanting better home releases. It's pretty obvious there's a real resentment towards the more mainstream side of the fandom.

I mean, I ask the question "What if I was able to have kids instead of having to grieve the children I'll never know for the rest of my life?" all the time, so asking the question of "What if I'd never heard of Dragon Ball?" is child's play. I don't think that my life would be better or worse for it, nor do I think it's really a worthwhile question to ask, because I don't consider my Dragon Ball fandom to be a core part of who I am. Certainly, I have fond memories tied to Dragon Ball and met many a good friend through it, but I don't think I'd be any worse off than I already am because of a lack of Dragon Ball.

I would absolutely sacrifice Dragon Ball's popularity if it gave me a body that didn't betray me every second of my existence.

[MasenkoHA]

To the people who insist they genuinely would be fine sacrificing DB's popularity, and say it's not important I have to ask this;

What if YOU had never heard of it? Think about it. You're making the assumption that you would still have seen it somehow, but realistically the odds of that would be low if it was never popular to begin with.



Wouldn't your lives be at least a little bit worse off without it?

Even if we only mean sacrificing the popularity going forward, that's still millions of potential new fans who would never hear of it, and would likely be worse off for it. This is why I think it's selfish and thoughtless to downplay the importance of DB's popularity. It's effectively saying "If I can't have it nobody will".

I feel like this attitude goes beyond just wanting better home releases. It's pretty obvious there's a real resentment towards the more mainstream side of the fandom.

I mean firstly if I never heard of it....then I wouldn't have heard of it and that would be it. Like it would be one less series that I am a fan of and that would be the extent of it.


But also you're acting like it's either "massively popular series" or "obscure thing only 10 people in the world know about". I'm not GhostEmperorX, so maybe I misunderstood the prompt, but he did say massively popular. Something can be popular without reaching levels of Mighty Morphin Power Rangers or Pokemon or Game of Thrones or FRIENDS or The Office ya know?

Would it really be the worst thing in the world if Dragon Ball Z had just remained in the world of Saturday Morning syndication (where it was still a top rated cartoon for its demo) or ended up on Toonami but in a slightly crappier timeslot? Assume that the dub still ended up the same way with the Texas cast and Faulconer switch after season 2 and the billingual uncut release but we got Dragon Box level releases but with the dub music as optional for dub music fans and Japanese broadcast audio for sub fans and no dub audio revisionism.

YuYu Hakusho, Inuyasha, and Cowboy Bebop were nowhere as popular as Dragon Ball Z but they still have millions of anime fans of a certain age who have fond memories of them. I don't think it would be dystopian if DBZ was about on their level of popularity

[Zephyr]

If you say your life would be absolutely no different without DB I'll take your word for it. Maybe it really hasn't impacted you that much, but again there are no end of stories of people turning their lives around after becoming fans. Obviously these people would be worse off without it.

There's no way to know that something else wouldn't have filled that same role. There's also no way of knowing whether or not somebody would have still discovered and gotten into DB at some point down the line. Maybe it's a weakness of the thread's initial question that its initial hypothetical with clear consequences invites so many additional hypotheticals with less clear consequences.

In another thread earlier this year, I talked about the impact that DB, my time in its fandom, and the process of learning about how poorly Funimation handled it, had on me, and then speculated on whether or not I'd have discovered and gotten into the series even if a Funimation dub airing on Toonami never happened:

I got into DBZ at such a young and formative age, and have been a very big fan of it since then, that it's influenced subsequent interests, hobbies, and friendships I've had over the years in ways that are incalculable. I couldn't begin to outline a plausible alternate reality for myself where I didn't get into DBZ, because it wasn't on Toonami.

...

Maybe some other show might have taken its place? Maybe something else would have grabbed my attention, hooked me into being a fan for over a decade, motivated me to sign up for a message board, have been so poorly localized that discussions about it on that message board stimulated my thinking about localization in general, had such a poorly understood genre make up in the mainstream popular culture that it motivated the creation of an incredibly thorough breakdown as to its influences on that message board which made me reflect more on how art gets influenced and remixed by other art? Maybe. I sure as hell don't know what, but I can't say it wouldn't or couldn't have happened. Sure feels like it was a perfect storm though, honestly.

I've had "immense personal intellectual benefit" from DBZ as it is in this timeline. Would something else have come along and done the same thing for me in DBZ's place? I don't know, maybe. Would I have gotten into DB anyway at some point? Probably, but much later and under very different circumstances.

How different of a person would I be? How different would the world be? I don't know, I can't know, and at some point I feel like pulling on too many threads like this defeats the purpose of the initial hypothetical: trade massive IP status for fixing all of the Hardcore Fans™' grievances? To which the answer would pretty obviously be "yes, please" from any Hardcore Fans™, especially because none of us make money off of it. But the answer is so obvious that you almost need those additional questions to stimulate any real discussion. But those questions lead to rather dead ends of speculation.

[ABED]

That's a weird assertion especially nowadays with most entertainment being so segmented. There are so many movies and shows out there with small audiences that people know about.

If I didn't know the series existed, my life wouldn't be worse off without it bc I wouldn't know about it.

There being potentially new fans is wonderful but it's not my or anyone else's concern how popular the show is if they don't have a vested financial interest in it.

And no, it's NOTHING like saying if I can't have it, no one can. This is a huge stretch and it feels like you are shaming people for a hypothetical.

Generally speaking popularity and word of mouth go hand in hand. There are exceptions, but the odds of you hearing about something and actually giving it a watch go up significantly when it's actually popular. DB was released in the West as a direct response to its popularity in Japan for example.

And we're not just talking about nowadays but also back when the franchise was first becoming popular. Back then it was even harder to hear about something that wasn't popular. The popularity of the syndication airings lead to the Toonami airings, which introduced the majority of US fans to the show.

If you say your life would be absolutely no different without DB I'll take your word for it. Maybe it really hasn't impacted you that much, but again there are no end of stories of people turning their lives around after becoming fans. Obviously these people would be worse off without it.

It's like the movie It's a Wonderful Life. Everyone in the movie is shown to be worse off without George Bailey. We can see this direct comparison as a viewer. Even if the characters are oblivious to the difference, it doesn't mean that one situation isn't worse than the other.

I'm not shaming people for a hypothetical. Several people in this topic have made it abundantly clear they'd erase DB's popularity in a heartbeat if the power rested with them.

except that George saved people in VERY provable and concrete ways. He literally saved his brother's life. This isn't remotely on that level.

And I didn't say my life would be no different, just that it would be no worse.

And word of mouth and popularity don't go hand in hand. There's a corrolation, but not causation. Plenty of anime far less popular than DB made it here. And for the record, I knew of DB before most people here. I lived in Japan for 2 years, and I watched DBZ in it's initial syndicated run starting in 96.

I am old enough to remember life pre-internet. While the internet has been on net a benefit in my life, I can recall what it was like before. My life was fine.

[90sDBZ]

except that George saved people in VERY provable and concrete ways. He literally saved his brother's life. This isn't remotely on that level.

Some of the stories I was referring to include people being inspired to overcome drug addiction. Others have used the show as an escape from bullying or abuse. It's not quite the same level but it's close. Also I don't see any reason to doubt these stories. Sean Schemmel has said he's had a grown man cry in front of him, and has had many fans recount emotional stories to him. Other cast members have also said the same.

Some of you have argued that something else would have filled the void left by DB. For some people this would have been the case, but for others it wouldn't, as not everything resonates in the same way. If the show helped a single person turn their life around who otherwise wouldn't have, then it was worth it.

And word of mouth and popularity don't go hand in hand. There's a corrolation, but not causation. Plenty of anime far less popular than DB made it here.

The point is that the more popular something gets, the more people it reaches. A show that is moderately popular has the potential to help many people, but a show that is massively popular has the potential to help a lot more. Every life it enriches, if only slightly, is a win

And for the record, I knew of DB before most people here. I lived in Japan for 2 years, and I watched DBZ in it's initial syndicated run starting in 96.

I am old enough to remember life pre-internet. While the internet has been on net a benefit in my life, I can recall what it was like before. My life was fine.

I wasn't doubting your knowledge or your time in the fandom. I was just using an example. I became a fan in 2000 but didn't get internet access until 2004, so I understand some semblance of what it was like back then. Personally I prefer things now, as there's a lot of great shows I'd never have seen without people on the internet singing their praises.

Apologies if I haven't addressed everyone. I've tried to cover the main points.

[ABED]

It's wonderful that it can help people, but I have a hard time with this hypothetical. Is the implication that the changes which bring it to a version closer to what we would prefer worth it even if the show wasn't as big. The implication from that is that the changes made it more popular. I have a really hard time believing that to be the case.

Even if I knew fewer people would get into the show, even beleiving some portion of that would find strength in it to get over their addiction, would I give that up to get a version of the show or releases the fit what I want and the answer is still yes because I can't live my life for others. I take no shame in this fact. If people find it hard to watch a 4:3 show or a show with more accurate dub and more experienced actors, that's not my problem. Bc while many turn to stories for things like strength, so do I. Having a version of DB that is needlessly subpar interferes with my enjoyment.

But I also have a difficult time believing the things I desire out of the franchise would've hindered its popularity.

Personally I prefer things now, as there's a lot of great shows I'd never have seen without people on the internet singing their praises.

If they're really popular, you would've heard about them pre-internet. It's what was called "water cooler TV". The shows you are more likely to have heard about due to the internet that you might not have prior are more obscure shows.

[90sDBZ]

It's wonderful that it can help people, but I have a hard time with this hypothetical. Is the implication that the changes which bring it to a version closer to what we would prefer worth it even if the show wasn't as big. The implication from that is that the changes made it more popular. I have a really hard time believing that to be the case.

Even if I knew fewer people would get into the show, even beleiving some portion of that would find strength in it to get over their addiction, would I give that up to get a version of the show or releases the fit what I want and the answer is still yes because I can't live my life for others. I take no shame in this fact. If people find it hard to watch a 4:3 show or a show with more accurate dub and more experienced actors, that's not my problem. Bc while many turn to stories for things like strength, so do I. Having a version of DB that is needlessly subpar interferes with my enjoyment.

But I also have a difficult time believing the things I desire out of the franchise would've hindered its popularity.

We can never know to what extent, if any, the changes affected DB's success. At this point I'm inclined to believe that the show would have still been huge, and any overall difference wouldn't be that big in the grand scheme of things.

OP phrased it as either/or, so I responded to that.

Personally I prefer things now, as there's a lot of great shows I'd never have seen without people on the internet singing their praises.

If they're really popular, you would've heard about them pre-internet. It's what was called "water cooler TV". The shows you are more likely to have heard about due to the internet that you might not have prior are more obscure shows.

Not exactly. I didn't see The Sopranos until last year. This might be because I'm in the UK, and a lot of big US shows either take longer to catch on here, or they simply struggle to find a prominent network. I watched The Sopranos after seeing countless people online call it the greatest show ever, and honestly it's hard to disagree now that I've seen it.

Breaking Bad struggled to find a home in the UK for years before finally gaining success on Netflix. It had previously aired on obscure channels in weird timeslots. It's very popular here now, although still not quite as universally known and acknowledged as it is in the US.

Also it's not just a case of hearing the name of a show, but also hearing enough to be convinced to actually sit down and watch it.

[CascadeIllusion]

So I pretty much just lurk for the most part, but the question presented here is very interesting because it presents a lot of interesting ethical questions that I've asked myself before, and this is a good opportunity to get discussion out of it while it's still relevant.

Cause and effect is a very complex thing with far-reaching effects, and one of the beautiful things about life is that even when bad things happen, they can indirectly lead to positive changes or outcomes later down the road that, if said events never occured in the first place, those positive events would never have come into existence.

A perfect example in this very fandom is Kenji Yamamoto's score. Yes, he did plagiarize a lot of music, which if looked at in a vacuum isn't exactly a great thing. Yet, I think many people here can attest that Yamamoto's score, prior to learning about the plagiarism, was a major factor of several fans' enjoyment of the franchise. The Budokai games were a big part of my childhood and a large part of what made the games so memorable and enjoyable was that very same plagiarized (even if we didn't know back then) score. Even today knowing that it is plagiarized, it doesn't change the fact that the soundtrack still sounds excellent, and in fact some fans have actually learned about the existence of some rather obscure artists/bands through the plagiarism revelations, which not only contributed to those fan's enjoyment of music later but also the original artists who originally had their material plagiarised.

It can get extended to bad/unfaithful dubs too. Like it or not, a lot of current fans of not only Dragon Ball, but other properties such as Pokemon, Yu-Gi-Oh, etc. would very likely never have become fans without such dubs as a stepping stone. Being a fan leads to people finding other fans who share their interests, who can become close friends and there are even cases of people meeting their life partners thanks to connections within the fandom. So by erasing such content from history, you're not just getting a world where Dragon Ball is less popular, because nothing happens in a vacuum. You're indirectly changing the lives of millions of people.

And those are more tame examples. There's plenty of cases of tragedies, atrocities, injustices, and so on that in the immediate moment, were undeniably very bad, but in the wake of them, people came out stronger, more motivated to help the world, and people that might have otherwise never met each other would have crossed paths in times of turmoil, leading to lifelong friendships or even romantic relationships and children being born later that would come to change the world for the better and far, far offsetting the bad that had come before.

Does it mean that those actions are retroactively okay just because good things happened afterwards? No, of course not, but it does bring a very important question to mind: If you could cause some bad event to be erased from history, knowing that by doing so you will likely lose valuable friendships, cause important people to never be born, or even cause yourself or your friends/family to never be born, would you do it? Keep in mind that you wouldn't just be affecting yourself but also millions/billions other people who never consented to be involved in your interference of history, who will have their lives irrevocably altered, for better or worse, by your meddling with time. Imagine that you still existed but your close friends never met you and or/your significant other never came into your life, but you had to live with the memory of what you did have before you altered time. Would you really, really be willing to make THAT big of a sacrifice, living the rest of the life in depression and misery in exchange for helping people that you don't know and who don't know you? I guarantee that there's very, very, very few people on the planet who are willing to do that.

There's a reason why the idea of "don't interfere with history" is such a common trope in time travel stories - because this an extremely heavy question that forces people to grapple with the fundamental driving ideas behind morality and ethics. Utilitarianism, Kantianism, and the like.

And, being honest here, I would not go back in time to change a single thing in the hopes that doing so brings a "better world". If it meant losing everything I hold dear to me, then hell no I'm not going to interfere with time. And I believe many of you would think the same, even if you don't want to admit it. I care more about my close friends and family (note I didn't include myself, so I'm not being selfish) than the rest of mankind, and why should I be expected to think otherwise? The collective of humanity didn't help me through tough times, inspire me, and build me to be a good person. It was a specific small group of people who are directly invested in my life and care about me that did that. Why would I throw it all away just to make people happy that I have never met, nor will ever meet?

[sebubibinman]

If not for its massive popularity, America's landfills would be missing metric tons of Cell saga VHS tapes, and we can't have that.

[Zephyr]

Some of you have argued that something else would have filled the void left by DB. For some people this would have been the case, but for others it wouldn't, as not everything resonates in the same way. If the show helped a single person turn their life around who otherwise wouldn't have, then it was worth it.

I argued that something else could have filled the void, not necessarily would have. In a world where DBZ didn't compel someone to break their drug addiction or endure their bullies, it's possible nothing fills that void; it's possible that a different show fills that void; it's also possible something entirely unrelated to TV causes the sort of positive change(s) in question instead.

We can't know, one way or the other, which is why to me it's a borderline non-factor in the original question.

[AliTheZombie13]

"Would you deprive a massive lot of people of something that brings them genuine happiness because a harmless kids show doesn't meet your boring jaded adult expectations?"

The answer would be "no." And that's coming from someone who abhors a lot of the new content of the franchise.

[Dbzk1999]

No, I wouldn’t, simple as that.

[ChronoTwigger]

Pick your poison.
Very unpopular Dragon Ball = just up to Oolong wish.
Unpopular Dragon Ball = end of it after Piccolo Daimao.
Popular Dragon Ball = up to MajinBuu.
Extremely Popular Dragon Ball = Dragon Ball Super.
Uncanny Popular Dragon Ball = Kanzenshuu and strange people believing that Dragon Ball did more to humanity than penicilline.

You cannot expect for a commercial product to have better or same features as an unpopular one. If you strip out DB popularity, you can forget better features in exchange.
So the overall discussion is like "will you exchange your lungs for better air?"

[Soppa Saia People]

Yes, anyday of the week, I actually can't imagine I would say no to this. I love Dragon Ball, but as a series it's not exactly irreplaceable, and stuff like inaccurate dubs and weird DVD releases is generally a detriment to my time in the fandom. Removing those, in addition to the fandom just being smaller, which I tend to prefer, is pretty easy for me.

Agreed. I think fans have always been this way, but when there are no gatekeepers, and the only thing between a toxic fan and an audience is an 'enter' key, it's a recipe for disaster.

I don't think anyone else agreed with this post but yeah, well the classic like "Name 5 of their songs!!" style gate keeping is stupid, I generally prefer people have the slightest idea of what their talking about with somethings, and I guess to an extent that's gatekeeping but I don't really think it's unreasonable.

[Saiya6Cit]

Oh the topic turned into Toxic fans, shame, that deserves it's very own topic because I have noticed people who had been in the fandom for a long time they tend to diminish new people, and we are the same age, we just have not been around in the same places as much, but that does not make us less of a fan...

Going back to original topic: No.

That is my answer to your question. Dragon ball being a cheap product is part of its charm. It was never meant for global success or to meet quality standards. It was a japanese animation made for japanese people who would buy the toukubon manga each week and decide the future of the series that way ( how vegeta was kept for example) . It is not a "cult" anime or a work of art manga. It has many defects, gaps and errors, but it is precisely that desire to "fix it" what has kept the franchise current and a strong fandom through Fan Manga, FanArt, Fanfiction... Fan rants.

 In Latin America Dragon Ball was dubbed well, respectfully, other than some mistakes and mistranslations its one the best dubs for the franchise

Thanks to the job of Brenda Nava the translator who took care of Dragon Ball in México and more people in the fandom should know her name way more.


Of course I want a remastered version of the series but if I don't get one it won't bring me down and it is not the reason for an obsession for me. I wish the best for the franchise as I truly love Dragon Ball. Goku and its crew were like real friends to me in my lonely puberty years and again I'm 2020 when the world was being flushed down the toilet (I think it still is). Long live Dragon Ball.