Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Kaboom]

What's the evidence for Supreme Kai being weaker than the base saiyans?

Mostly from people needlessly taking everything in the story as a power statement, and therefore interpreting Kaioshin's caution towards Pui-Pui and Yakon as him meaning "either of these guys could effortlessly slaughter me."

[ZombieVito]

What's the evidence for Supreme Kai being weaker than the base saiyans?

Piccolo saying Shin was stronger than him.

[Hugo Boss]

What's the evidence for Supreme Kai being weaker than the base saiyans?

Base Gohan and Base Goku can lift the heavy z sword, albeit with difficulty. Kibito and Shin can’t. That only speaks for their muscle strength though.

Kibito, for example, has combat abilities that can make him a tough fight for Base Gohan, according to his profile in Daizenshuu 7.

Shin is also implied to have spiritual or magical powers that make him able to effortlessly beat Freeza and be superior to even Piccolo. Shin is also capable of holding SS2 Gohan for a while.

[Grimlock]

So just out of curiosity, we are all in agreement that Kaioshin of East can easily defeat Freeza and that this same dude is weaker than base Saiyans, right?

[Kaboom]

Uh, no? When we put together everything we're actually told, the power chain adds up like this:

Super Saiyans > Kaioshin > Piccolo > 100% Freeza > Base Saiyans ~ Kibito

• Kaioshin is weaker than the Super Saiyans: By his own admission in the manga.
• Kaioshin is stronger than Piccolo: Roundaboutly stated in the manga, directly confirmed in Daizenshuu #7.
• Kaioshin is much stronger than Freeza: Stated by Kaioshin himself in the manga.
• Kaioshin is much stronger than Kibito: Easily inferred by other points, but also directly stated in the Dragon Books.
• Boo-era base-form Saiyans are weaker than Freeza: Stated by Beerus in the Battle of Gods film, and repeated (emphasized, even) in the DB Super adaptation of the same scene.
• Kibito is comparable in battle power to base-form Gohan: Heavily implied by Gohan in the manga, directly stated in Daizenshuu #7.

[ZombieVito]

I remembered Goku getting impressed when Shin says all Kaioshins could kill Freeza in one blow but even Vegeta gets a reaction?

Logic tells me that they wouldn't be impressed by this if they could do that easily, which tells me that Freeza is indeed stronger than them in base.

Thoughts?

[Kaboom]

Honestly it's just an impressive feat regardless of which power-up they would need to do it themselves.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up.

I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, but there’s enough room to argue the opposite.

Now Yakon, he’s definitely stronger than Kaioshin. Shin recognizes him by name and thinks he’s a real threat. Even the Daizenshuu 7 reckons Shin is “afraid”, not just “careful”.

Modern Toriyama couldn’t even remember the series’ name, and DBS tend to flip flop on the matter (RoF seems to suggest Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo), so it goes nowhere. Doesn’t make sense to use DBS as definitive evidence if you’re dismissive of everything after BoG.

[ZombieVito]

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up.

I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, but there’s enough room to argue the opposite.

Now Yakon, he’s definitely stronger than Kaioshin. Shin recognizes him by name and thinks he’s a real threat. Even the Daizenshuu 7 reckons Shin is “afraid”, not just “careful”.

Modern Toriyama couldn’t even remember the series’ name, and DBS tend to flip flop on the matter (RoF seems to suggest Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo), so it goes nowhere. Doesn’t make sense to use DBS as definitive evidence if you’re dismissive of everything after BoG.

But Yakon was on par with base Goku... Shin was confirmed to be superior to Piccolo.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Kaioshin says he thinks Goku is stronger than himself when they meet, and pretty much says he can’t beat Babidi and co. without him. This is before Dabra even shows up.

I don’t think Pui Pui has to be stronger than Kaioshin since Kaioshin didn’t even know who he was. Pui Pui is probably stronger, but there’s enough room to argue the opposite.

Now Yakon, he’s definitely stronger than Kaioshin. Shin recognizes him by name and thinks he’s a real threat. Even the Daizenshuu 7 reckons Shin is “afraid”, not just “careful”.

Modern Toriyama couldn’t even remember the series’ name, and DBS tend to flip flop on the matter (RoF seems to suggest Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo), so it goes nowhere. Doesn’t make sense to use DBS as definitive evidence if you’re dismissive of everything after BoG.

But Yakon was on par with base Goku... Shin was confirmed to be superior to Piccolo.

So either Piccolo is below Base Saiyans, or Kaioshin was overrated. Not sure which. There’s the RoF script thing, but Toriyama is so all over the place with Super. That and the BoG line are equally worthless to me.

Yakon is just like Dabra. Kaioshin knows who he is and that he must be feared.

[Mireya]

The most accurate chain to me is:

Shin >> Piccolo >> base Saiyans >> androids 17 and 18 >> Freeza

The BoG line is evened out with RoF in which Gohan is heavily implied as Piccolo's superior in base, a Gohan who hadn't been training and hadn't Ultimate anymore.

In the manga, we have the kids throwing blows with 18, Trunks was actually defending himself from her hits, while she got the advantage when kicking in their blind spot. Yet, Trunks seemed unfazed when she slammed them with force to the ground. She obviously wasn't holding back thinking in not killing earthlings otherwise Trunks wouldn't have problems taking hits from her, since her hits would be very weak as "not to kill normal humans". She didn't have much reason not to KO them with strength enough if she could do so easily either.

Vegeta states that fighting in base is the same because his superior position wouldn't change. 18 was right there and considering Vegeta knowing it and the kids' fight with her in base, it's a very accurate assessment.

As for Piccolo, I'd remain skeptical of him being surpassed considering he seemed somewhat close to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs... Not on their level, but not far below. So it's hard to grasp the base Saiyans being at Cell Junior's level when kid Gohan is still a very respected threshold. Unless the multipler for SSJ shrunk a lot and the base state made tons of progress. But I think that's unlikely.

Shin is weird because there's evidence for him not being as strong as it was believed in the tournament. He seemed kinda not so surprised at SSJ2 Gohan but reacted so intensely at base Vegeta... Suggested ganging up on Yakon when base Goku was on Yakon's level... Among other things like saying the Saiyans surpassed his estimations by seeing their base, yet, only, when he had already suspected or better, expected, them to be stronger than him. So it seems like the Shin from the ship is a different character. I'm more in tune, though the answer, most obviously to me is weird writing, with him being so scared of Boo he'd be taking all cautious roads possible and not acting all that rationally. Piccolo's statement didn't seem that definitive as it was left ambiguous whether Piccolo sensed Shin's powers --- Piccolo felt weird, paralyzed and didn't know what was wrong... That wasn't a reaction to a big power otherwise he'd outright know what was up... He was confused and Shin stated Piccolo may have caught up on his IDENTITY. But still though, since the quote used feom Piccolo is still widely referenced for power, the Daizenshuu has Shin >>> Piccolo and the El Manga Legendario places Shin at CGs Goku's level, the evidence is mostly on his side.

But yeah, I'd say, scalling off the kids, and the possible placement Super gives for the kids, as ~ the Cell Juniors as SSJs, and the implied scaling of them being ~ 18 in base, that the adult Saiyans such as Goku and Vegeta may be on 16's level if not surpassing that, maybe the ceiling being Semi Cell. I'd still go with Shin being at least in between the Cell Juniors and CGs Goku. If the Cell Juniors (and the SSJ kids) were a 70 (to CG Goku's 100), Shin may be a 90... And Piccolo a 60... With the base Saiyans being a 15 or so, and Freeza a 3, maybe.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The most accurate chain to me is:

Shin >> Piccolo >> base Saiyans >> androids 17 and 18 >> Freeza

The BoG line is evened out with RoF in which Gohan is heavily implied as Piccolo's superior in base, a Gohan who hadn't been training and hadn't Ultimate anymore.

In the manga, we have the kids throwing blows with 18, Trunks was actually defending himself from her hits, while she got the advantage when kicking in their blind spot. Yet, Trunks seemed unfazed when she slammed them with force to the ground. She obviously wasn't holding back thinking in not killing earthlings otherwise Trunks wouldn't have problems taking hits from her, since her hits would be very weak as "not to kill normal humans". She didn't have much reason not to KO them with strength enough if she could do so easily either.

Vegeta states that fighting in base is the same because his superior position wouldn't change. 18 was right there and considering Vegeta knowing it and the kids' fight with her in base, it's a very accurate assessment.

As for Piccolo, I'd remain skeptical of him being surpassed considering he seemed somewhat close to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs... Not on their level, but not far below. So it's hard to grasp the base Saiyans being at Cell Junior's level when kid Gohan is still a very respected threshold. Unless the multipler for SSJ shrunk a lot and the base state made tons of progress. But I think that's unlikely.

Shin is weird because there's evidence for him not being as strong as it was believed in the tournament. He seemed kinda not so surprised at SSJ2 Gohan but reacted so intensely at base Vegeta... Suggested ganging up on Yakon when base Goku was on Yakon's level... Among other things like saying the Saiyans surpassed his estimations by seeing their base, yet, only, when he had already suspected or better, expected, them to be stronger than him. So it seems like the Shin from the ship is a different character. I'm more in tune, though the answer, most obviously to me is weird writing, with him being so scared of Boo he'd be taking all cautious roads possible and not acting all that rationally. Piccolo's statement didn't seem that definitive as it was left ambiguous whether Piccolo sensed Shin's powers --- Piccolo felt weird, paralyzed and didn't know what was wrong... That wasn't a reaction to a big power otherwise he'd outright know what was up... He was confused and Shin stated Piccolo may have caught up on his IDENTITY. But still though, since the quote used feom Piccolo is still widely referenced for power, the Daizenshuu has Shin >>> Piccolo and the El Manga Legendario places Shin at CGs Goku's level, the evidence is mostly on his side.

But yeah, I'd say, scalling off the kids, and the possible placement Super gives for the kids, as ~ the Cell Juniors as SSJs, and the implied scaling of them being ~ 18 in base, that the adult Saiyans such as Goku and Vegeta may be on 16's level if not surpassing that, maybe the ceiling being Semi Cell. I'd still go with Shin being at least in between the Cell Juniors and CGs Goku. If the Cell Juniors (and the SSJ kids) were a 70 (to CG Goku's 100), Shin may be a 90... And Piccolo a 60... With the base Saiyans being a 15 or so, and Freeza a 3, maybe.

Wait a minute. If BoG says one thing and RoF says another, why is the conclusion here that they’re both wrong?

[Koitsukai]

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation?

[Kaboom]

The bits with Gohan in Resurrection F are all kinds of weird. Piccolo is somehow struggling against someone said to be Zarbon-level, and Gohan steps in to save him, but still has to go Super Saiyan to do it. Toriyama's script, meanwhile, doesn't say anything beyond just "Gohan is strongest" as I recall. So unless there's something big I'm forgetting, it hardly seems to have any bearing on Beerus' line from the prior movie.

[Noah]

Who is the strongest character that a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Z) could defeat in both GT and Super?

Since we have nothing to go by, I guess SS4 Goku and SSB Goku, respectively?

This seems like a almost logical answer to me, but something feels off.

In Super, I'd say Enraged SSJ2 Vegeta for the anime and maybe SSJG Goku for the manga if Manga SSJG is weaker than his anime/movie self.

GT I'd say General Rildo. GT Goku should be comparable to Z Vegetto in the same forms.

What makes you think SSJ2 Vegeta has surpassed Vegetto?

[ZombieVito]

The bits with Gohan in Resurrection F are all kinds of weird. Piccolo is somehow struggling against someone said to be Zarbon-level, and Gohan steps in to save him, but still has to go Super Saiyan to do it. Toriyama's script, meanwhile, doesn't say anything beyond just "Gohan is strongest" as I recall. So unless there's something big I'm forgetting, it hardly seems to have any bearing on Beerus' line from the prior movie.

Shisami is not compared to them in the script. He's not even there. He's first mentioned at the army fight.

People are taking the Gohan is the strongest line as meaning base Gohan since it's describing the army fight but I don't buy it. Gohan already said he can turn Super Saiyan and as other pointed out, he still transformed to beat Shisami.

Then we have the anime version where Piccolo still chooses to fight Tagoma after he almost killed base Gohan and where Ginyu calls base Gohan's power puny.

[Hugo Boss]

Who is the strongest character that a hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto (Z) could defeat in both GT and Super?

Since we have nothing to go by, I guess SS4 Goku and SSB Goku, respectively?

This seems like a almost logical answer to me, but something feels off.

I come from the idea that SS Vegetto was surpassed by those forms, so SS3 would be the way for him to turn the tables on them.

[Mireya]

The most accurate chain to me is:

Shin >> Piccolo >> base Saiyans >> androids 17 and 18 >> Freeza

The BoG line is evened out with RoF in which Gohan is heavily implied as Piccolo's superior in base, a Gohan who hadn't been training and hadn't Ultimate anymore.

In the manga, we have the kids throwing blows with 18, Trunks was actually defending himself from her hits, while she got the advantage when kicking in their blind spot. Yet, Trunks seemed unfazed when she slammed them with force to the ground. She obviously wasn't holding back thinking in not killing earthlings otherwise Trunks wouldn't have problems taking hits from her, since her hits would be very weak as "not to kill normal humans". She didn't have much reason not to KO them with strength enough if she could do so easily either.

Vegeta states that fighting in base is the same because his superior position wouldn't change. 18 was right there and considering Vegeta knowing it and the kids' fight with her in base, it's a very accurate assessment.

As for Piccolo, I'd remain skeptical of him being surpassed considering he seemed somewhat close to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs... Not on their level, but not far below. So it's hard to grasp the base Saiyans being at Cell Junior's level when kid Gohan is still a very respected threshold. Unless the multipler for SSJ shrunk a lot and the base state made tons of progress. But I think that's unlikely.

Shin is weird because there's evidence for him not being as strong as it was believed in the tournament. He seemed kinda not so surprised at SSJ2 Gohan but reacted so intensely at base Vegeta... Suggested ganging up on Yakon when base Goku was on Yakon's level... Among other things like saying the Saiyans surpassed his estimations by seeing their base, yet, only, when he had already suspected or better, expected, them to be stronger than him. So it seems like the Shin from the ship is a different character. I'm more in tune, though the answer, most obviously to me is weird writing, with him being so scared of Boo he'd be taking all cautious roads possible and not acting all that rationally. Piccolo's statement didn't seem that definitive as it was left ambiguous whether Piccolo sensed Shin's powers --- Piccolo felt weird, paralyzed and didn't know what was wrong... That wasn't a reaction to a big power otherwise he'd outright know what was up... He was confused and Shin stated Piccolo may have caught up on his IDENTITY. But still though, since the quote used feom Piccolo is still widely referenced for power, the Daizenshuu has Shin >>> Piccolo and the El Manga Legendario places Shin at CGs Goku's level, the evidence is mostly on his side.

But yeah, I'd say, scalling off the kids, and the possible placement Super gives for the kids, as ~ the Cell Juniors as SSJs, and the implied scaling of them being ~ 18 in base, that the adult Saiyans such as Goku and Vegeta may be on 16's level if not surpassing that, maybe the ceiling being Semi Cell. I'd still go with Shin being at least in between the Cell Juniors and CGs Goku. If the Cell Juniors (and the SSJ kids) were a 70 (to CG Goku's 100), Shin may be a 90... And Piccolo a 60... With the base Saiyans being a 15 or so, and Freeza a 3, maybe.

Wait a minute. If BoG says one thing and RoF says another, why is the conclusion here that they’re both wrong?

Because both were made, or strongly supervised, by Toriyama. So if one had Freeza > base Goku and the other had strong implications and ditect statements for base Gohan > Piccolo, then it's clear that something weird was going on. In the Toyotaro's manga, Beerus stated "now I see how you could have defeated Freeza" after Goku went SSJ2... While, without a shadow of doubts, SSJ at the very least should have gotten him that confirmation... And Toriyama apparently supervised Toyotaro's manga and made corrections in the past, pointing out things he wasn't ok with... Is he ok with this implication then? He is. So it wouldn't come as weird with him letting off that line from BoG.

Since Freeza places special attention to Gohan when they were all fighting the soldiers, before knwoing Gohan could turn into a SSJ, and AT's script referred to Gohan as the strongest independent of the SSJ, with Piccolo fighting there, then those are strong positions for Gohan > Piccolo in base only. If Piccolo struggled to fight someone on Zarbon's level and ppl argue Shisami stayed on Zarbon's level.... Wouldn't that speak to AT's knowledge on the scaling of the manga as a whole then? If people place emphasis on him having reread the manga but still acknowledge he let Piccolo struggle with a Zarbon-tier enemy, that all place a strong doubt upon his understanding of the scaling within his own manga. That, along with the SSJ2 being what convinced Beerus that Goku surpassed Freeza.... Also, along with Freeza making a big deal of achieving a 1,300,000 BP... Are all weird things and placements.

So the BoG evidence, at least to me, is just meaningless overall. As it's not only worked in reverse in the other movie, but there're many things casting doubts upon Toriyama's understanding of the scaling implied in the original manga and where does he envision Freeza's power.

Though yeah, with the OG manga only, I see not much room to debate or argue against the strong implications for the Saiyans having surpassed Freeza in base. If Goten and Trunks could resist attacks from 18 in their base states, while attacks from that same 18 could hurt androids saga future Trunks badly, and Vegeta's statement of superiority comes with 18 right there at the spot... Then I've no reason not to buy in the obviously meant to be evidences and place the base Saiyans, the strongest ones, as way above 18 at least. If we buy in the scene of Trunks and Goten struggling to fend the Cell Juniors, similar to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs, though they were outnumbered there, it maybe could be argued Goten and Trunks in the Boo arc were in the CGs Vegeta and Trunks realm... While being on 18's realm in their base states. If CGs Trunks and Vegeta filled 60% of CGs Goku's power (it varies depending on ppl's scaling... Of how much Vegeta surpassed 50% Goku)... And [boo saga] Goku and Vegeta surpassed CGs Goku while in same states (maybe a 120, 150 to 100 distance)... Then their base states could be doubling on 18's power very well, which would meet 16's powers in my scaling. Still a far cry to Piccolo though, who was on CGs MSSJ Goku 50% level and Shin, who was closing in 100% CGs Goku, to me.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation?

The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and keeps highlighting him as such. Gohan using SSJ probably just means he can’t beat Piccolo in 1 punch, and they were all tired from fighting the soldiers.

The manga just drives the point further because Tagoma says Gohan is the “strongest looking” and Gohan says Tagoma is as strong as himself.

Because both were made, or strongly supervised, by Toriyama. So if one had Freeza > base Goku and the other had strong implications and ditect statements for base Gohan > Piccolo, then it's clear that something weird was going on. In the Toyotaro's manga, Beerus stated "now I see how you could have defeated Freeza" after Goku went SSJ2... While, without a shadow of doubts, SSJ at the very least should have gotten him that confirmation... And Toriyama apparently supervised Toyotaro's manga and made corrections in the past, pointing out things he wasn't ok with... Is he ok with this implication then? He is. So it wouldn't come as weird with him letting off that line from BoG.

Since Freeza places special attention to Gohan when they were all fighting the soldiers, before knwoing Gohan could turn into a SSJ, and AT's script referred to Gohan as the strongest independent of the SSJ, with Piccolo fighting there, then those are strong positions for Gohan > Piccolo in base only. If Piccolo struggled to fight someone on Zarbon's level and ppl argue Shisami stayed on Zarbon's level.... Wouldn't that speak to AT's knowledge on the scaling of the manga as a whole then? If people place emphasis on him having reread the manga but still acknowledge he let Piccolo struggle with a Zarbon-tier enemy, that all place a strong doubt upon his understanding of the scaling within his own manga. That, along with the SSJ2 being what convinced Beerus that Goku surpassed Freeza.... Also, along with Freeza making a big deal of achieving a 1,300,000 BP... Are all weird things and placements.

So the BoG evidence, at least to me, is just meaningless overall. As it's not only worked in reverse in the other movie, but there're many things casting doubts upon Toriyama's understanding of the scaling implied in the original manga and where does he envision Freeza's power.

Though yeah, with the OG manga only, I see not much room to debate or argue against the strong implications for the Saiyans having surpassed Freeza in base. If Goten and Trunks could resist attacks from 18 in their base states, while attacks from that same 18 could hurt androids saga future Trunks badly, and Vegeta's statement of superiority comes with 18 right there at the spot... Then I've no reason not to buy in the obviously meant to be evidences and place the base Saiyans, the strongest ones, as way above 18 at least. If we buy in the scene of Trunks and Goten struggling to fend the Cell Juniors, similar to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs, though they were outnumbered there, it maybe could be argued Goten and Trunks in the Boo arc were in the CGs Vegeta and Trunks realm... While being on 18's realm in their base states. If CGs Trunks and Vegeta filled 60% of CGs Goku's power (it varies depending on ppl's scaling... Of how much Vegeta surpassed 50% Goku)... And [boo saga] Goku and Vegeta surpassed CGs Goku while in same states (maybe a 120, 150 to 100 distance)... Then their base states could be doubling on 18's power very well, which would meet 16's powers in my scaling. Still a far cry to Piccolo though, who was on CGs MSSJ Goku 50% level and Shin, who was closing in 100% CGs Goku, to me.

I see. It goes to show how often Toriyama forgets stuff, and RoF is probably the biggest example of that.

The manga scene is a bit of a misconception I see a lot. When Goku turns SSJ, he turns around and asks Whis about the form. When Whis is done explaining, Goku turns SSJ2. Beerus made his statement regardless of Goku transforming again. Though it’s not really saying Freeza > Base as much as acknowledging history (That SSJ defeated Freeza). Manga Beerus never even gauges Base Goku.

Agree about boys vs 18. If it was just the boys “fighting” 18 it wouldn’t be a big deal for me (They’re mostly losing), but 18 says Mighty Mask is strong and looks worried. Final nail in the coffin for Base > Piccolo would be Vegeta saying Kid Trunks ~ CG Trunks since as you said, Boo Saga SSJs are just a few times above CG SSJs.

What makes you think SSJ2 Vegeta has surpassed Vegetto?

Not sure what I was thinking. This was months ago and I’ve changes my mind since.

[Lukmendes]

Base Gohan and Base Goku can lift the heavy z sword, albeit with difficulty. Kibito and Shin can’t. That only speaks for their muscle strength though.

It's also worth pointing out that Gohan could only remove the Z-sword from that rock by turning super saiyan, even then it was still really difficult, and his SS is above Shin.

It seems that removing the sword by itself was the hardest task, because Gohan then could lift it in base, which Kibito couldn't, so that at least means Gohan's own physical strength in base form is above Kibito's, but it's hard to say if it also means Gohan's base form is above Shin in at least physical strength, since Shin never tried to hold the sword.

I also wouldn't really say Goku struggled that hard to hold the Z-sword, he was surprised at first, but in the same page he casually holds it while putting its weight on his shoulder, and then returns it to Gohan with one arm, so it seems he was surprised and took a bit to get used to its weight.

But yeah, honestly measuring up Shin's power level in comparison with the other characters is a headache, he was only said to be stronger than Piccolo, but Shin gradually starts to look weaker over Buu saga since he at first wasn't too surprised at Gohan's power at SS2, but then was completely baffled at Vegeta casually killing Pui Pui in base form, which can even make it look like rusty Gohan's SS2 is below Vegeta's base form, which's ridiculous... I get the feeling Toriyama just nerfed Shin over time, to the point that him apparently being stronger than even Piccolo doesn't look likely.