Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mireya]

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation?

The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and keeps highlighting him as such. Gohan using SSJ probably just means he can’t beat Piccolo in 1 punch, and they were all tired from fighting the soldiers.

The manga just drives the point further because Tagoma says Gohan is the “strongest looking” and Gohan says Tagoma is as strong as himself.

Because both were made, or strongly supervised, by Toriyama. So if one had Freeza > base Goku and the other had strong implications and ditect statements for base Gohan > Piccolo, then it's clear that something weird was going on. In the Toyotaro's manga, Beerus stated "now I see how you could have defeated Freeza" after Goku went SSJ2... While, without a shadow of doubts, SSJ at the very least should have gotten him that confirmation... And Toriyama apparently supervised Toyotaro's manga and made corrections in the past, pointing out things he wasn't ok with... Is he ok with this implication then? He is. So it wouldn't come as weird with him letting off that line from BoG.

Since Freeza places special attention to Gohan when they were all fighting the soldiers, before knwoing Gohan could turn into a SSJ, and AT's script referred to Gohan as the strongest independent of the SSJ, with Piccolo fighting there, then those are strong positions for Gohan > Piccolo in base only. If Piccolo struggled to fight someone on Zarbon's level and ppl argue Shisami stayed on Zarbon's level.... Wouldn't that speak to AT's knowledge on the scaling of the manga as a whole then? If people place emphasis on him having reread the manga but still acknowledge he let Piccolo struggle with a Zarbon-tier enemy, that all place a strong doubt upon his understanding of the scaling within his own manga. That, along with the SSJ2 being what convinced Beerus that Goku surpassed Freeza.... Also, along with Freeza making a big deal of achieving a 1,300,000 BP... Are all weird things and placements.

So the BoG evidence, at least to me, is just meaningless overall. As it's not only worked in reverse in the other movie, but there're many things casting doubts upon Toriyama's understanding of the scaling implied in the original manga and where does he envision Freeza's power.

Though yeah, with the OG manga only, I see not much room to debate or argue against the strong implications for the Saiyans having surpassed Freeza in base. If Goten and Trunks could resist attacks from 18 in their base states, while attacks from that same 18 could hurt androids saga future Trunks badly, and Vegeta's statement of superiority comes with 18 right there at the spot... Then I've no reason not to buy in the obviously meant to be evidences and place the base Saiyans, the strongest ones, as way above 18 at least. If we buy in the scene of Trunks and Goten struggling to fend the Cell Juniors, similar to Vegeta and Trunks in the CGs, though they were outnumbered there, it maybe could be argued Goten and Trunks in the Boo arc were in the CGs Vegeta and Trunks realm... While being on 18's realm in their base states. If CGs Trunks and Vegeta filled 60% of CGs Goku's power (it varies depending on ppl's scaling... Of how much Vegeta surpassed 50% Goku)... And [boo saga] Goku and Vegeta surpassed CGs Goku while in same states (maybe a 120, 150 to 100 distance)... Then their base states could be doubling on 18's power very well, which would meet 16's powers in my scaling. Still a far cry to Piccolo though, who was on CGs MSSJ Goku 50% level and Shin, who was closing in 100% CGs Goku, to me.

I see. It goes to show how often Toriyama forgets stuff, and RoF is probably the biggest example of that.

The manga scene is a bit of a misconception I see a lot. When Goku turns SSJ, he turns around and asks Whis about the form. When Whis is done explaining, Goku turns SSJ2. Beerus made his statement regardless of Goku transforming again. Though it’s not really saying Freeza > Base as much as acknowledging history (That SSJ defeated Freeza). Manga Beerus never even gauges Base Goku.

Agree about boys vs 18. If it was just the boys “fighting” 18 it wouldn’t be a big deal for me (They’re mostly losing), but 18 says Mighty Mask is strong and looks worried. Final nail in the coffin for Base > Piccolo would be Vegeta saying Kid Trunks ~ CG Trunks since as you said, Boo Saga SSJs are just a few times above CG SSJs.

What makes you think SSJ2 Vegeta has surpassed Vegetto?

Not sure what I was thinking. This was months ago and I’ve changes my mind since.

Yes, but Beerus was seen bored fending off Goku and asked Whis, hadn't said anything about beating Freeza yet. Whether he was going to say it regardless is unknown, but when Goku turned into a SSJ2, Beerus got that smile and said "no surprise you were able to beat Freeza", with an excitement he had shown for the first time there. It's not the right scaling, ofc, but Beerus didn't make it seem like he was dealing with someone who could single tap Freeza there --- SSJ Goku... So there was definitely some weirdness in how Beerus addressed Goku in comparison to Freeza. Even in the BoG, although a direct statement, Beerus seemed to be examining Goku's body... He saw the SSJ in his dreams or in Whis' crystal ball, and it could be argued he wasn't seeing the same features from Goku when examining his body as the warrior he saw. Or Goku might have been suppressed there, as they don't always walk around at FP. Or Beerus was goading Goku into transforming.

But the RoF seems clear on portraying Gohan, as weakened and out of shape as he was, as above Piccolo.

So I think both movies go to extremes in regards to the base Saiyans powers... One downgrading and the other, overplaying it. Which makes the Super evidence for any side kinda shaky and inconclusive.

So with the manga only, I see base kid Trunks fending off 18 and the battle being described as even until they transformed, as a very direct hint of their overall placement. If we borrow Super's PoV of the kids fending off 2 Cell Juniors, albeit struggling, as meaning they were then overall on the Juniors levels, and that their Boo arc selevs would have been on CGs Vegeta and Trunks level, I got a good ground to believe the adult base Saiyans exceeded 18 in their base states by the same amount their Boo saga selves exceeded CGs Vegeta and Trunks, whose base scaling off the kids seems to be ~ 18... That's as close as I can get to a solid placement, and it's a good middle ground too.

[Hugo Boss]

it's hard to say if it also means Gohan's base form is above Shin in at least physical strength, since Shin never tried to hold the sword.

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

[Mireya]

I think the Z sword may be a matter of getting used to it too. For instance, kid Trunks couldn't deal with 150G while androids saga Vegeta ordered building a 300G... It seems exposure to pressure, weights and all plays a factor in how well they can dela with it. I don't think Shin could wield the Z sword as well as Gohan at all when Gohan mastered it, not a chance... But maybe he could do a better job than Gohan initially when Gohan tried wielding it, who knows. Though yeah, I think it's hard to translate lifting power to overall prowess in combat to someone like Shin like pointed out earlier. We didn't even see Shin land a punch. His chi may be independent of his bench press ability, his lifting power... More like a chi manipulation strength, along with strong Kiais and energy release that doesn't go in hand with his physical strength. His resistance in taking a beat seems to compliment his chi blasts, kiai and such abilities though, as he took a hevay beating from Boo and could still walk after, a level from Boo was already > SSJ2 Goku... If we take Chaozu failing to use his telechnesis on Nappa while in a roughly 6x disadvantage, while Shin managed to stop SSj2 Gohan with that, such may also imply a less than 6x gap between Shin and SSJ2 teen Gohan... Though Shin seemed on the verge of not being able to stopping Gohan. If we take the SSJ multipliers from SEG, or assume it's at least 10x as AT thought, then Shin, based on this, should be way beyond base Saiyans. Roughly


Gohan : 1
SSJ : 10
SSJ2 : 20

Shin >> 3 (power gap in which Chaozu's same ability didn't work on Nappa).

Shin seemed sure it'd work on SSJ Gohan, though with SSj2 it was unsure. I'd say Shin may be decently close to SSJ Gohan... Maybe an 8 in that scaling.


Overall, in broad levels, maybe:


Android 18 : 1
Android 17 : 1.125
16 : 2
Semi Cell : 3
-- FP : 3.6
Super Vegeta : 4.8
Warm up Cell : 7.2
50% Goku : 7.2
CGs Piccolo : 8
CGs Trunks : 9
CGs Vegeta : 9.6
Cell Junior[s] : 10
CGs Goku : 14.4
Cell [vs Goku] : 16
Gohan : 18
Cell [vs Gohan] : 19.2
Cell (FP) : 26
SSj2 Gohan : 43
SPC : 38.5


--- Boo arc


Android 18 : 1

Kid Trunks : 0.9
--- SSJ : 9
Goten : 0.88
--- SSJ : 8.8

Piccolo : 8

Teen Gohan : 1.6
--- SSJ : 16
--- SSJ2 : 32
---- vs Dabura : 24

Dabura : 26

Shin : 14

Vegeta : 1.92
--- SSJ : 19.2
--- SSJ2 : 38.5

Goku : 2.35
--- SSJ : 23.5
--- SSJ2 : 47


Does it sound reasonable?

[Koitsukai]

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation?

The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and keeps highlighting him as such. Gohan using SSJ probably just means he can’t beat Piccolo in 1 punch, and they were all tired from fighting the soldiers.

The manga just drives the point further because Tagoma says Gohan is the “strongest looking” and Gohan says Tagoma is as strong as himself.

But since when are we getting worked up about a script? scratch that: about stuff, on a script, that never even made it to the final product? it's like ignoring FPSS Broly because on the script Toriyama only wrote him to be a regular SS. Nah, we are stuck with FPSS, sorry original script.

And even if we take the script into account and keep on dragging powerscaling through the mud by… auditing a script with stuff that never made it to the final product, the interpretation is a stretch at best. It’s just a superlative and I don't see how that implies how they fare in base.

If the point is to see the authorial intent, well that goes as far as the final product can show, if I have a script saying Jimmy lives happily with their parents, and then he’s shown living on the streets with his sick dog, then he is an orphan.

TL, DR: I’m not buying the “it’s on the script” defense, if it ain’t on the movie it’s not worth anybody’s time, IMO, specially if it's supposed to retcon something that did make it into a previous film.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Didn't RoF Gohan turn SS to fight that guy Piccolo was struggling with? how come that implies he is superior than him in base? or are you guys talking about some other situation?

The script’s description of the big battle with the soldieds says “Gohan is the strongest. Piccolo is strong too” and keeps highlighting him as such. Gohan using SSJ probably just means he can’t beat Piccolo in 1 punch, and they were all tired from fighting the soldiers.

The manga just drives the point further because Tagoma says Gohan is the “strongest looking” and Gohan says Tagoma is as strong as himself.

But since when are we getting worked up about a script? scratch that: about stuff, on a script, that never even made it to the final product? it's like ignoring FPSS Broly because on the script Toriyama only wrote him to be a regular SS. Nah, we are stuck with FPSS, sorry original script.

And even if we take the script into account and keep on dragging powerscaling through the mud by… auditing a script with stuff that never made it to the final product, the interpretation is a stretch at best. It’s just a superlative and I don't see how that implies how they fare in base.

If the point is to see the authorial intent, well that goes as far as the final product can show, if I have a script saying Jimmy lives happily with their parents, and then he’s shown living on the streets with his sick dog, then he is an orphan.

TL, DR: I’m not buying the “it’s on the script” defense, if it ain’t on the movie it’s not worth anybody’s time, IMO, specially if it's supposed to retcon something that did make it into a previous film.

The phrase “Gohan is the strongest” isn’t directly in it because it’s not a piece of dialogue, it’s a cue from Toriyama to the animators. Gohan gets the most screentime in the movie, and Freeza even highlights Gohan as someone who could wipe the entire army at once.

[Koitsukai]

The phrase “Gohan is the strongest” isn’t directly in it because it’s not a piece of dialogue, it’s a cue from Toriyama to the animators. Gohan gets the most screentime in the movie, and Freeza even highlights Gohan as someone who could wipe the entire army at once.

I still don't see that as a takeaway for his base to beat Piccolo or anything even remotely close to retconning a direct statement from BoG.

It's funny that the manga follows up the RoF arc with Gohan not being included in the team vs U6, with Piccolo and Buu being prioritized over him because "he's a bookworm now, he only studies and has even lost his gi" (a nod at his RoF tracksuit).
Geets even explains he wants him due to his latent potential, nothing about his current self. Seems to me, whatever the script wanted to go for was fogone by the movie and the DBS manga.

[ZombieVito]

The phrase “Gohan is the strongest” isn’t directly in it because it’s not a piece of dialogue, it’s a cue from Toriyama to the animators. Gohan gets the most screentime in the movie, and Freeza even highlights Gohan as someone who could wipe the entire army at once.

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that.

[Mireya]

Base Gohan is given more attention than Piccolo. In the script from Toriyama Gohan is referred as the strongest... In the anime, Gohan fights Piccolo to a draw. There's no denying Gohan was portrayed high in comparison to powers like below CGs Piccolo...

[GreatSaiyaman123]

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that.

That he can’t wipe out the whole army? When?

Base Gohan is given more attention than Piccolo. In the script from Toriyama Gohan is referred as the strongest... In the anime, Gohan fights Piccolo to a draw. There's no denying Gohan was portrayed high in comparison to powers like below CGs Piccolo...

To be fair, Gohan vs Piccolo was in the U6 Saga. That Piccolo could fold RoF 1st form Freeza at the very least.

[Kaboom]

We also shouldn't forget that Freeza's army of mooks averaged as so weak that even Muten Roshi and Jaco could take them, so by comparison both Piccolo and even base-form Gohan were holding back immensely to remain non-lethal (for whatever reason). Freeza may be just able to intuitively tell that Gohan is holding back the most, with or without knowing he has Super Saiyan, just like he was able to tell that Goku was likewise still holding back something (the Kaio-Ken) on Namek.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Yeah Freeza flat out said everyone was holding back, but the way he says it sounds like Gohan is the only one who could kill the 1 million soldiers at once.

If Gohan himself wasn’t sure he could go SSJ, how could Freeza now? Similarly, Goku wasn’t sure if he could pull off KKx20, and thus Freeza didn’t expect/“sense” it.

[ZombieVito]

But we are shown base Gohan can't do that.

That he can’t wipe out the whole army? When?

When he needed Super Saiyan to beat Shisami, a member of Freeza's army.

[QuakingStar]

Since we have nothing to go by, I guess SS4 Goku and SSB Goku, respectively?

This seems like a almost logical answer to me, but something feels off.

I come from the idea that SS Vegetto was surpassed by those forms, so SS3 would be the way for him to turn the tables on them.

It never mentioned any forms for Vegito it just said Vegito when comparing SS4 and Potara Fusion(Vegito) and I agree with Herms take on it, he think its supposed to be a hypothetical GT Vegito and since Goku can use SS3 it's very possible that what's being compared is SS3 GT Vegito and SS4.

[Lukmendes]

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

Is that an anime thing? Because in the chapter 478 it's Kibito who looks baffled at Goku using the sword, while Shin isn't too shocked at it.

Though yeah, I think it's hard to translate lifting power to overall prowess in combat to someone like Shin like pointed out earlier. We didn't even see Shin land a punch. His chi may be independent of his bench press ability, his lifting power... More like a chi manipulation strength, along with strong Kiais and energy release that doesn't go in hand with his physical strength.

Thing is that, the way DB works is that if you have a lot of ki, that increases all physical combat related stats, so his ki being somehow independent from his physical power would be an odd exception.

Only magic seems to really be independent from ki, with characters like Babidi and old Kaioshin having magic stronger than their ki, but that's about it.

His resistance in taking a beat seems to compliment his chi blasts, kiai and such abilities though, as he took a hevay beating from Boo and could still walk after, a level from Boo was already > SSJ2 Goku... If we take Chaozu failing to use his telechnesis on Nappa while in a roughly 6x disadvantage, while Shin managed to stop SSj2 Gohan with that, such may also imply a less than 6x gap between Shin and SSJ2 teen Gohan... Though Shin seemed on the verge of not being able to stopping Gohan. If we take the SSJ multipliers from SEG, or assume it's at least 10x as AT thought, then Shin, based on this, should be way beyond base Saiyans. Roughly

Well, also worth keeping in mind that we have different levels of the same power, since Kibito healing of Gohan after Spopovich and Yamu stole his power, seems to be slower and he notes that Gohan isn't at full power (Though maybe he meant "not at full power yet"), while Dende is around and just casually heals whoever shows up, even though he's much weaker than Kibito.

So we could have the possibility that Shin's paralysing spell is weaker than Chiaotzu's, making the gap for it to work even wider, or even stronger, so...

Would also like to point out that Nappa's power level being at 4000, doesn't really make much sense with the manga itself, since after he calms down, both Goku and Vegeta point out the fight would take forever to end, which doesn't really work with the idea that Goku is 2x stronger than him, because 2x stronger in DB means you're completely outclassed.

About Shin tanking attacks, that's just how DB works, characters who are outclassed survive for far more hits than they should a bunch of times, specially when the villain is feeling sadistic and trying to make the character suffer, which Buu seemed to be doing to Shin.

[Koitsukai]

Shin is a case of study, he doesn't add up, right?
Maybe kaioshin are that resistant, it should be that way, considering the hakaishin's life depends on theirs. We never see other kaioshin fight, aside of Zamasu's sparring match and filler flashbacks of Shin's nakamas, if that's worth anything, those weren't oneshot fights as one would expect, even though we don't know strong those guys were.
I can't recall if in the manga Shin also fights Buff Buu like in the anime.

When Shin paralized Gohan, Yamu immediately jumped Gohan and stole his energy, so I don't think Shin can hold down a SS2 tier fighter for long. He is better at it than Bujin, though.

Physically, he should be weaker than a SS, due to the whole Z-sword thing, but much stronger than Freeza.

[Mireya]

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

Is that an anime thing? Because in the chapter 478 it's Kibito who looks baffled at Goku using the sword, while Shin isn't too shocked at it.

Though yeah, I think it's hard to translate lifting power to overall prowess in combat to someone like Shin like pointed out earlier. We didn't even see Shin land a punch. His chi may be independent of his bench press ability, his lifting power... More like a chi manipulation strength, along with strong Kiais and energy release that doesn't go in hand with his physical strength.

Thing is that, the way DB works is that if you have a lot of ki, that increases all physical combat related stats, so his ki being somehow independent from his physical power would be an odd exception.

Only magic seems to really be independent from ki, with characters like Babidi and old Kaioshin having magic stronger than their ki, but that's about it.

His resistance in taking a beat seems to compliment his chi blasts, kiai and such abilities though, as he took a hevay beating from Boo and could still walk after, a level from Boo was already > SSJ2 Goku... If we take Chaozu failing to use his telechnesis on Nappa while in a roughly 6x disadvantage, while Shin managed to stop SSj2 Gohan with that, such may also imply a less than 6x gap between Shin and SSJ2 teen Gohan... Though Shin seemed on the verge of not being able to stopping Gohan. If we take the SSJ multipliers from SEG, or assume it's at least 10x as AT thought, then Shin, based on this, should be way beyond base Saiyans. Roughly

Well, also worth keeping in mind that we have different levels of the same power, since Kibito healing of Gohan after Spopovich and Yamu stole his power, seems to be slower and he notes that Gohan isn't at full power (Though maybe he meant "not at full power yet"), while Dende is around and just casually heals whoever shows up, even though he's much weaker than Kibito.

So we could have the possibility that Shin's paralysing spell is weaker than Chiaotzu's, making the gap for it to work even wider, or even stronger, so...

Would also like to point out that Nappa's power level being at 4000, doesn't really make much sense with the manga itself, since after he calms down, both Goku and Vegeta point out the fight would take forever to end, which doesn't really work with the idea that Goku is 2x stronger than him, because 2x stronger in DB means you're completely outclassed.

About Shin tanking attacks, that's just how DB works, characters who are outclassed survive for far more hits than they should a bunch of times, specially when the villain is feeling sadistic and trying to make the character suffer, which Buu seemed to be doing to Shin.

I'd say lifting objects could translate to BPs, but not necessarily. If two fighters haven't had any experience with a heavy object and then tried it for the first time, then yeah. However, the fact one got used to it while the other still had to feel the waters could be akin to characters way stronger than androids saga Vegeta (who trained under 300G) like kid Trunks, straining in 150G... Or Gohan feeling the RoSaT 10G in the androids saga, while someone like Raditz existed at this gravity. The level of adaptativeness can also play a role into how they face weight feats, I'd say.

As for the technique being different, possible but not implied. With Kibito, it was shown that way, besides, it could cime from AT wishing to hype the depths of Gohan's power a little too. With Chaozu and Kaioshin, there isn't thst clear separation. And while I agree Nappa is beyong 8,000, that can be left to when he fought with a cold mind vs Goku... When he fought the Z fighters, the 4,000 level fits fine. Chaozu could be even stronger, actually, as he could keep up with the Saibaiman and Yamcha, who were 1,200+... Considering the Ginyus couldn't even see Goku under a 1.66x disadvantage, there may be a case of Chaozu being 800 or 1,000 too, making the gap even smaller.


As for the RoF sequence:

Episode: 21
Time: 18:45-18:52
Context: Tagoma shot both Shisami and Gohan.
Tagoma: "I shot the strongest looking enemy at the best possible timing."


Not the movie, but a clear cut statement.



"Despite being called “Freeza Army”, by now it’s been reduced to merely a hodge-podge of second-rate warriors. Strength-wise Earth’s army overwhelmingly has the upper hand, and the enemy force’s numbers steadily drop. However, there are still some strong enemies. The mercenaries are particularly troublesome. Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo’s strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role."

AT's script. While it isn't referenced base, it was in the moment of Gohan fighting the army in base and still being unsure as to whether he could transform... Which goes in hand with Freeza assessing him as the bigger deal.

"There’s not much of Freeza’s army left, and Gohan defeats one powerful mercenary after another.

Piccolo is having a hard time against Shisami, the best warrior in Freeza’s army."

Another script from Toriyama. Gohan's given more emphasis.

Sorbet: “I-I can’t believe it!...These guys are…!”

Freeza: “There’s nothing surprising about it. If he felt like it, Son Goku’s son over there could finish them all in an instant.

Gohan becomes Super Saiyan and instantly defeats Shisami.

Sorbet: “I'm-Impossible…Even Shisami’s no match…”

"Freeza: “You’ve only ever seen videos of Super Saiyans, so you can’t really know how fearsome they truly are. Still, I didn’t expect that the son would also be able to transform.”

Freeza places emphasis on Gohan alone while he was in his base state. He didn't even know he could go SSj so it would apply his base state is seen as a bigger deal to be brought up than Piccolo... Who wasn't given the same emphasis. Freeza didn't expect SSJ as he flat out stated that. AT statement came right in the moment of describing their role in the army fight, before any engagement with Shisami was done, at which point Gohan was described as the strongest.

I mean, whatever direct statement from Freeza > base Goku in BoG, such is even more clearly emphasized as base weakened Gohan > Piccolo in RoF. It's just bias to pick one movie and disregard the other clear implications.

[Hugo Boss]

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

Is that an anime thing? Because in the chapter 478 it's Kibito who looks baffled at Goku using the sword, while Shin isn't too shocked at it.

No? While Shin is the one talking he is clearly baffled as well, suggesting to do what Goku asked.

It never mentioned any forms for Vegito it just said Vegito when comparing SS4 and Potara Fusion(Vegito) and I agree with Herms take on it, he think its supposed to be a hypothetical GT Vegito and since Goku can use SS3 it's very possible that what's being compared is SS3 GT Vegito and SS4.

???

I’m saying SS4 Goku was the form in which I think GT Goku surpassed SS Vegetto from Majin Boo arc and that, with SS3, Vegetto would reclaim superiority. I guess it’s not so different from what Herms is (supposedly) talking about, right?

[Mireya]

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

Is that an anime thing? Because in the chapter 478 it's Kibito who looks baffled at Goku using the sword, while Shin isn't too shocked at it.

No? While Shin is the one talking he is clearly baffled as well, suggesting to do what Goku asked.

It never mentioned any forms for Vegito it just said Vegito when comparing SS4 and Potara Fusion(Vegito) and I agree with Herms take on it, he think its supposed to be a hypothetical GT Vegito and since Goku can use SS3 it's very possible that what's being compared is SS3 GT Vegito and SS4.

???

I’m saying SS4 Goku was the form in which I think GT Goku surpassed SS Vegetto from Majin Boo arc and that, with SS3, Vegetto would reclaim superiority. I guess it’s not so different from what Herms is (supposedly) talking about, right?

Weird, that may very well be the case, but I always took that scene when reading as Shin thinking the sacred sword is already being used by other than Gohan and kinda being tested and played with haha.

[Lukmendes]

Shin is a case of study, he doesn't add up, right?
Maybe kaioshin are that resistant, it should be that way, considering the hakaishin's life depends on theirs. We never see other kaioshin fight, aside of Zamasu's sparring match and filler flashbacks of Shin's nakamas, if that's worth anything, those weren't oneshot fights as one would expect, even though we don't know strong those guys were.

Considering Shin and Kibito say that no other god was able to lift the Z sword before, it's safe to assume they're all weaker than SS Gohan.

Unless Toriyama had forgotten about the Z sword by that point and thought of the other Kaioshins as around that level or stronger, but there's nothing to imply one way or the other, so by default one can assume they're all weaker than SS Gohan.

I can't recall if in the manga Shin also fights Buff Buu like in the anime.

There's no fight against buff Buu in the manga, we just have Shin saying what happened in the past, alongside panels of the buff Kaioshin, the fat one, and a panel of Shin defeated looking at fat Buu, presumably right after the fat Kaioshin was absorbed, but no fighting.

When Shin paralized Gohan, Yamu immediately jumped Gohan and stole his energy, so I don't think Shin can hold down a SS2 tier fighter for long. He is better at it than Bujin, though.

To be fair, also worth pointing out Shin caught Gohan by surprise, and his attack is much faster, while Bojack's gang's paralysing attack is slower, and Gohan knew it was being used and just got rid of it.

Though it's possible/likely that Shin's paralysing attack is still stronger anyways, since the version from Bojack's gang seems to be entirely ki based (Since only really Bujin has magic, the others either don't have it or don't bother, and most of them showed they can use that attack), but different circumstances like these are worth pointing out.

I'd say lifting objects could translate to BPs, but not necessarily. If two fighters haven't had any experience with a heavy object and then tried it for the first time, then yeah. However, the fact one got used to it while the other still had to feel the waters could be akin to characters way stronger than androids saga Vegeta (who trained under 300G) like kid Trunks, straining in 150G... Or Gohan feeling the RoSaT 10G in the androids saga, while someone like Raditz existed at this gravity. The level of adaptativeness can also play a role into how they face weight feats, I'd say.

Well yeah lack of experience when dealing with heavier weights is fine, just saying that there's no reason to assume that Shin's ki is somehow independent from his lifting strength

As for the technique being different, possible but not implied. With Kibito, it was shown that way, besides, it could cime from AT wishing to hype the depths of Gohan's power a little too. With Chaozu and Kaioshin, there isn't thst clear separation. And while I agree Nappa is beyong 8,000, that can be left to when he fought with a cold mind vs Goku... When he fought the Z fighters, the 4,000 level fits fine.

Thing is that, if his power level was just 4000 against the rest, he would have had powered up at some point to go 8000, which, he doesn't, he just calms down against Goku.

"Despite being called “Freeza Army”, by now it’s been reduced to merely a hodge-podge of second-rate warriors. Strength-wise Earth’s army overwhelmingly has the upper hand, and the enemy force’s numbers steadily drop. However, there are still some strong enemies. The mercenaries are particularly troublesome. Gohan is strongest. And Piccolo’s strong too. Kuririn, Tenshinhan, Kame-sennin, and even Jaco all play a big role."

AT's script. While it isn't referenced base, it was in the moment of Gohan fighting the army in base and still being unsure as to whether he could transform... Which goes in hand with Freeza assessing him as the bigger deal.

"There’s not much of Freeza’s army left, and Gohan defeats one powerful mercenary after another.

Piccolo is having a hard time against Shisami, the best warrior in Freeza’s army."

Another script from Toriyama. Gohan's given more emphasis.

Sorbet: “I-I can’t believe it!...These guys are…!”

Freeza: “There’s nothing surprising about it. If he felt like it, Son Goku’s son over there could finish them all in an instant.

Gohan becomes Super Saiyan and instantly defeats Shisami.

Sorbet: “I'm-Impossible…Even Shisami’s no match…”

"Freeza: “You’ve only ever seen videos of Super Saiyans, so you can’t really know how fearsome they truly are. Still, I didn’t expect that the son would also be able to transform.”

Freeza places emphasis on Gohan alone while he was in his base state. He didn't even know he could go SSj so it would apply his base state is seen as a bigger deal to be brought up than Piccolo... Who wasn't given the same emphasis. Freeza didn't expect SSJ as he flat out stated that. AT statement came right in the moment of describing their role in the army fight, before any engagement with Shisami was done, at which point Gohan was described as the strongest.

I mean, whatever direct statement from Freeza > base Goku in BoG, such is even more clearly emphasized as base weakened Gohan > Piccolo in RoF. It's just bias to pick one movie and disregard the other clear implications.

Well problem is that RoF stuff is hidden behind scripts and not really shown in the movie itself...

Funnily enough, Freeza says the line about Gohan being able to kill off everyone in an instant in Toyotaro's RoF manga, but Gohan is using SS during that, and Freeza's own shock at Gohan going SS is removed.

No? While Shin is the one talking he is clearly baffled as well, suggesting to do what Goku asked.

Hm, I don't see it that way but I understand your point.

[Hugo Boss]

Weird, that may very well be the case, but I always took that scene when reading as Shin thinking the sacred sword is already being used by other than Gohan and kinda being tested and played with haha.

Which is kinda related, isn’t? (These Saiyans are treating a sacred object that not even the gods can properly wield like it’s a kid’s toy, with that ease).