Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[Mireya]

@Lukmendes

Well, Shin never tried laying a punch lol, so maybe his speciality is chi attacks. But I don't know, we hadn't Shin trying to pick the Z sword at any point when it was removed, so even in regards to his lifting strength, it remains a mystery, I'd say. Maybe Gods, specially those of the highest calibre, have a bigger tendency of having their chi manipulation as their strongest weapon and main form of combat. I think him moving fat Boo a little with his eye Kiai is kinda impressive too, as little as that was. I'd generally go the simplest route and use the Daizenshuu's entry on him being way above Piccolo and place him near CGs Goku like the El Manga Legendario does... Though yeah, admittedly, he's a headache.

He wouldn't have needed to power up to 8,000 because the other ones were way weaker than him... And a 2,800 attack from Gohan made his arm swell, which would be unlikely if he were much above 4,000. Not only that, but a Goku who was read as 5,000 and had his power steadily increasing easily dodged Nappa's punches when Goku firstly got there. Nappa had no reason to be using the power he used lately vs Goku from the start.

What wasn't shown? I honestly don't remember the movie very well, but the thing of them fighting the army was shown and Freeza gave a special compliment to Gohan before Gohan turned into a SSj, singling him out from the rest.

Well yeah, but in the movie Gohan only turns SSj to fight Shisami iirc. And even if it were the case the scripts didn't make into the movie, they're still Toriyama's scripts, so they hold relevance either way. But as far as I remember, the script was overall well depicted in the movie.

Btw, I don't agree with base Saiyans > Piccolo. I was just pointing out the movie's evidence.


@Hugo Boss

Or maybe kinda taking it too lightly and disrespecting the value it has? Dunno hehe.

[Mireya]

Looking at the page again, did Shin really seem surprised Goku could lift the sword though? It seemed really subtle and maybe the sweat dropplet and Kibito's and Shin's next panel faces came from Goku casually asking whether he could eat a meal there haha.

Edit: couldn't post the image because finding url for pics has been a pain in the ass lately.

[QuakingStar]

This mostly comes from seeing Goku struggling initially to wield the sword, but as soon as Goku starts swinging it, Shin’s reaction is one of those moments where you can tell “this guy is just too strong for my standards”.

Is that an anime thing? Because in the chapter 478 it's Kibito who looks baffled at Goku using the sword, while Shin isn't too shocked at it.

No? While Shin is the one talking he is clearly baffled as well, suggesting to do what Goku asked.

It never mentioned any forms for Vegito it just said Vegito when comparing SS4 and Potara Fusion(Vegito) and I agree with Herms take on it, he think its supposed to be a hypothetical GT Vegito and since Goku can use SS3 it's very possible that what's being compared is SS3 GT Vegito and SS4.

???

I’m saying SS4 Goku was the form in which I think GT Goku surpassed SS Vegetto from Majin Boo arc and that, with SS3, Vegetto would reclaim superiority. I guess it’s not so different from what Herms is (supposedly) talking about, right?

I always saw Herms tweet thread as he is implying that MAYBE Vegito surpasses SS4 when he would use SS3. Herms himself was the one saying its entirely possiblei it could be referring to SS3 even even a GT version of SS3 Vegito.

[Hugo Boss]

It never mentioned any forms for Vegito it just said Vegito when comparing SS4 and Potara Fusion(Vegito) and I agree with Herms take on it, he think its supposed to be a hypothetical GT Vegito and since Goku can use SS3 it's very possible that what's being compared is SS3 GT Vegito and SS4.

???

I’m saying SS4 Goku was the form in which I think GT Goku surpassed SS Vegetto from Majin Boo arc and that, with SS3, Vegetto would reclaim superiority. I guess it’s not so different from what Herms is (supposedly) talking about, right?

I always saw Herms tweet thread as he is implying that MAYBE Vegito surpasses SS4 when he would use SS3. Herms himself was the one saying its entirely possiblei it could be referring to SS3 even even a GT version of SS3 Vegito.

I can’t find this particular mention of a GT version of Vegetto in the thread I found. The controversy is mostly from a GT vs. Non-GT perspective, as he highlights in the beginning.

In resume, he suggests that Super Baby Vegeta 1 is stronger than SS Vegetto (DBZ), but a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto (DBZ) would be stronger than SS4 Goku (not the full power version that fought Yi Xing Long).

I honestly don’t see any problem with his reasoning.

[Mireya]

???

I’m saying SS4 Goku was the form in which I think GT Goku surpassed SS Vegetto from Majin Boo arc and that, with SS3, Vegetto would reclaim superiority. I guess it’s not so different from what Herms is (supposedly) talking about, right?

I always saw Herms tweet thread as he is implying that MAYBE Vegito surpasses SS4 when he would use SS3. Herms himself was the one saying its entirely possiblei it could be referring to SS3 even even a GT version of SS3 Vegito.

I can’t find this particular mention of a GT version of Vegetto in the thread I found. The controversy is mostly from a GT vs. Non-GT perspective, as he highlights in the beginning.

In resume, he suggests that Super Baby Vegeta 1 is stronger than SS Vegetto (DBZ), but a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto (DBZ) would be stronger than SS4 Goku (not the full power version that fought Yi Xing Long).

I honestly don’t see any problem with his reasoning.

What do you think of my gaps above?

[Hugo Boss]

What do you think of my gaps above?

Well, if you mean the debate about Base Gohan vs. Piccolo in RoF, I think the movie suggests everyone is holding back immensely, specially Gohan. It’s rather inconclusive if Base Gohan can beat someone above Piccolo’s level. Instead, he resorts to Super Saiyan and proves that he is superior to Piccolo in that form, at least until Piccolo surpassed his Super Saiyan form during their preparation to the Tournament of Power.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Well, they were all tired and Gohan needed a senzu afterwards. If he can wipe out the whole army, then he probably could beat Shisami too if he wasn’t so tired.

I don’t think the stuff about the mercenaries counts though. They were excluded from the movie.

[Mireya]

What do you think of my gaps above?

Well, if you mean the debate about Base Gohan vs. Piccolo in RoF, I think the movie suggests everyone is holding back immensely, specially Gohan. It’s rather inconclusive if Base Gohan can beat someone above Piccolo’s level. Instead, he resorts to Super Saiyan and proves that he is superior to Piccolo in that form, at least until Piccolo surpassed his Super Saiyan form during their preparation to the Tournament of Power.

Well yeah, but Freeza still places special attention on Gohan without knowing he can transform and knwoing they were all holding back. But the fact that despite the fact he knows holding back is a factor but Gohan picked his interest more, it tells me he had something else there in base alone from the way he was fighting that someone as perceptible as Freeza could catch on as above Piccolo. The scripit, even though altered a little, seemed to put Gohan above Piccolo and it's unlikely it was a reference to SSJ as the script referenced moments before the battle with Shisami and "the mercenaries", the latters not shown, but the script also has details about the Z warriors beating up the weaker foes which wouldn't require SSJ for Gohan, which kinda mirrors Freeza's special gaze to Gohan outside of the state being known, imo. The anime at least had them sparring evenly moments later the battle. Gohan didn't seem stronger there, sure, but it still showed he was at least as strong as Piccolo in base, the anime alone.

I personally don't agree with base > Piccolo. I think Boo arc base Saiyans peaked on Semi Cell's level at the very most, while I've Piccolo in the Boo arc somewhat close to CGs Vegeta and Trunks and the Cell Juniors... I just think the new material makes things inconclusive by leaning different sides, plus AT's weird power scaling comparisons make it doubtful if he really followed the scaling implied in the manga or just didn't pay any attention to it... Even in Toyotaro's manga, the acknowledgement of Goku surpassing Freeza only came from Beerus when Goku went SSJ2... Which is also rather weird considering how much of a joke Freeza should be to SSJ Goku alone.

[Hugo Boss]

Well yeah, but Freeza still places special attention on Gohan without knowing he can transform and knwoing they were all holding back. But the fact that despite the fact he knows holding back is a factor but Gohan picked his interest more, it tells me he had something else there in base alone from the way he was fighting that someone as perceptible as Freeza could catch on as above Piccolo. The scripit, even though altered a little, seemed to put Gohan above Piccolo and it's unlikely it was a reference to SSJ as the script referenced moments before the battle with Shisami and "the mercenaries", the latters not shown, but the script also has details about the Z warriors beating up the weaker foes which wouldn't require SSJ for Gohan, which kinda mirrors Freeza's special gaze to Gohan outside of the state being known, imo.

From my viewpoint, Freeza picking up interest in Gohan is not in any way different from when Dabra and Babidi selected Goku, Gohan and Vegeta as the best candidates to conduct their plans. They also didn’t know anything about Super Saiyan, but were perceptive enough to make that distinction.

Besides, Piccolo was likely suppressed to a level below Base Gohan and forcing himself to fight at that level probably sapped his energy quicker.

The anime at least had them sparring evenly moments later the battle. Gohan didn't seem stronger there, sure, but it still showed he was at least as strong as Piccolo in base, the anime alone.

The anime is not very consistent with that though, so I wouldn’t use as a proper representation of what Toriyama was envisioning. After all, Piccolo was showed as superior to SS2 Gohan in episode 88 and equal to Base Gohan in episode 90.

In SH, Piccolo was fighting at a level closer to SS Gohan, albeit he could be weaker.

I just think the new material makes things inconclusive by leaning different sides, plus AT's weird power scaling comparisons make it doubtful if he really followed the scaling implied in the manga or just didn't pay any attention to it... Even in Toyotaro's manga, the acknowledgement of Goku surpassing Freeza only came from Beerus when Goku went SSJ2... Which is also rather weird considering how much of a joke Freeza should be to SSJ Goku alone.

The manga has things playing out a little differently from the movie, as Goku almost doesn’t give Beerus any time to talk, rushing between his forms during exposition. But the response of how he understands that Goku defeated Freeza was in relation to what Whis commented, that Saiyans recently acquired a new yellow-haired form called Super Saiyan. It’s not related to SS2 specifically.

[Mireya]

Well yeah, but Freeza still places special attention on Gohan without knowing he can transform and knwoing they were all holding back. But the fact that despite the fact he knows holding back is a factor but Gohan picked his interest more, it tells me he had something else there in base alone from the way he was fighting that someone as perceptible as Freeza could catch on as above Piccolo. The scripit, even though altered a little, seemed to put Gohan above Piccolo and it's unlikely it was a reference to SSJ as the script referenced moments before the battle with Shisami and "the mercenaries", the latters not shown, but the script also has details about the Z warriors beating up the weaker foes which wouldn't require SSJ for Gohan, which kinda mirrors Freeza's special gaze to Gohan outside of the state being known, imo.

From my viewpoint, Freeza picking up interest in Gohan is not in any way different from when Dabra and Babidi selected Goku, Gohan and Vegeta as the best candidates to conduct their plans. They also didn’t know anything about Super Saiyan, but were perceptive enough to make that distinction.

Besides, Piccolo was likely suppressed to a level below Base Gohan and forcing himself to fight at that level probably sapped his energy quicker.

The anime at least had them sparring evenly moments later the battle. Gohan didn't seem stronger there, sure, but it still showed he was at least as strong as Piccolo in base, the anime alone.

The anime is not very consistent with that though, so I wouldn’t use as a proper representation of what Toriyama was envisioning. After all, Piccolo was showed as superior to SS2 Gohan in episode 88 and equal to Base Gohan in episode 90.

In SH, Piccolo was fighting at a level closer to SS Gohan, albeit he could be weaker.

I just think the new material makes things inconclusive by leaning different sides, plus AT's weird power scaling comparisons make it doubtful if he really followed the scaling implied in the manga or just didn't pay any attention to it... Even in Toyotaro's manga, the acknowledgement of Goku surpassing Freeza only came from Beerus when Goku went SSJ2... Which is also rather weird considering how much of a joke Freeza should be to SSJ Goku alone.

The manga has things playing out a little differently from the movie, as Goku almost doesn’t give Beerus any time to talk, rushing between his forms during exposition. But the response of how he understands that Goku defeated Freeza was in relation to what Whis commented, that Saiyans recently acquired a new yellow-haired form called Super Saiyan. It’s not related to SS2 specifically.

I think it's different because Babidi knew the three people could fill Boo's meter with energy. If SSj2 Gohan only filled half of the matter, then it's unlikely for the base Saiyans to make the meter overflow when Babidi expected them to be weaker than Pui Pui. Heck, he didn't even know Gohan had filled half, he was surprised by it. So it seems he has some magic power that can judge one's usefulness without knowing exactly how that translates to their strength, basically a "useful for marvelous energy for Boo" kind of thing. With Freeza, he was observing them all in battle, and made that comment while they were all holding back. Freeza shouldn't be able to know about the SSj or have it subconsciously known as he didn't buy Trunks' talk of defeating him until he turned and showed himself to be a SSj, much to Freeza's surprise... So it seems more logical for him to be analysing Gohan's base state abilities... And knowing they were all holding back but still choosing one shows some perception of good eyes form identifying the strongest even when the warriors, overall, aren't exerting themselves. For instance, he knew Piccolo post nail-merge was no ordinary Namekian. He had a feeling on where Goku's power could fall when he estimated 50% as enough. Ginyu seems perceptible like that too, judging Goku's power accurately by observing him when he was suppressed.

I wouldn't put much stock either in the anime, but it's also one more layer of evidence.

As for the part in the manga, sure, but Beerus went there expecting someone capable of defeating Freeza. It makes no sense to be ever so bothered at SSj Goku when that power could single fell Freeza very easily... And show such excitement only when the SSJ2 is shown... The "no surprise you were able to defest Freeza" is more like a "no shit, you felt the power of someone whom could easily do that, by seeing the irrelevant miniscule Freeza even more miniscule in the comment performed that moment?". I don't know if it was simply lack of time to talk, Beerus' sudden excitement changed... along with his more enthusiasm behaviour following the comment, it flows better with him acknowledging that as the definitive mark of a "no surprise Freeza was defeated" imo.

[Hugo Boss]

So it seems more logical for him to be analysing Gohan's base state abilities... And knowing they were all holding back but still choosing one shows some perception of good eyes form identifying the strongest even when the warriors, overall, aren't exerting themselves.

I still don’t see how that scene constitutes evidence that Base Gohan was stronger than a full-powered Piccolo.
Freeza only implies Gohan is the strongest in the group, nothing else. As in the other examples you cited, they don’t necessarily have the whole picture. Ginyu guessed Goku was stronger than Jeice and Burter, but he was clueless about Goku’s true strength that surpassed his. Just a not-entirely-ignorant remark that Dragon Ball has plenty.

And show such excitement only when the SSJ2 is shown... The "no surprise you were able to defest Freeza" is more like a "no shit, you felt the power of someone whom could easily do that, by seeing the irrelevant miniscule Freeza even more miniscule in the comment performed that moment?". I don't know if it was simply lack of time to talk, Beerus' sudden excitement changed... along with his more enthusiasm behaviour following the comment, it flows better with him acknowledging that as the definitive mark of a "no surprise Freeza was defeated" imo.

You are just overthinking this scene. Beerus is not exactly excited about the power of SS2, as if Freeza was framed between the current SS and SS2. He was just finally getting the idea of how a Saiyan could defeat Freeza while ignoring Goku’s efforts: “he must have used that Super Saiyan thing!”.

[Mireya]

I still don’t see how that scene constitutes evidence that Base Gohan was stronger than a full-powered Piccolo.
Freeza only implies Gohan is the strongest in the group, nothing else. As in the other examples you cited, they don’t necessarily have the whole picture. Ginyu guessed Goku was stronger than Jeice and Burter, but he was clueless about Goku’s true strength that surpassed his. Just a not-entirely-ignorant remark that Dragon Ball has plenty.

Because Freeza deemed him as the strongest seeing their display when Gohan was on his base state. They were all holding back, but the fact Gohan was still the one who drew attention to him besides the knowledge that they were all going easy shows it's the strongest power there regardless of transformations. Which also goes in hand with Toriyama's script of Gohan being the strongest in a scenario they were beating up fodders, which wouldn't require SSJ.

You are just overthinking this scene. Beerus is not exactly excited about the power of SS2, as if Freeza was framed between the current SS and SS2. He was just finally getting the idea of how a Saiyan could defeat Freeza while ignoring Goku’s efforts: “he must have used that Super Saiyan thing!”.

I don't think it's overthinking. The comment was made specifically when Goku turned SSJ2. The comment could very well be done as soon as Goku became a SSJ because the difference in power should be obvious. It doesn't make sense to perform a comment for SSJ2 when Freeza is as irrelevant to SSJ Goku as he is to SSJ2. It's like knowing Freeza is a 10, getting hit by someone with a 100, minimum, strength, and maintaining a bored expression asking Whis questions instead of saying anything... And then getting excited, more so, by the 200 power and saying it's no surprise how you defeated the 10 enemy, which is all he came in there expecting to see... It's not like a 200 power would make a difference to a 10 in comparison to a 100 power... Both would fall into the category of making Freeza an ant, which was all he came in there expecting. In some translations that not VIZ, Beerus framed his statement as "now I see how you could defeat Freeza"... If the same was said in the Japanese manga, then it'd be even more clear as the SSJ2 state drawing that precise confirmation from him, as we know VIZ, in spite of being official, doesn't translate things totally literal.

[Mireya]

Also, it's interesting that in the Toyotaro's manga Gohan was seen as a SSJ when Freeza made that same comment, but the script from Toriyama had it specially laid out that Gohan only became a SSJ when Shisami was giving Piccolo a hard time, so the script and movie seem to allign pretty well, with the addition of Toriyama saying Gohan was the strongest when the description of their strength was restricted to the battle vs the army solely when Gohan was in base, it was a description of their states in the fight there. So it makes way more sense to me to get a simple base Gohan > Piccolo from that. It's as much of a direct statement as the BoG's one. Freeza also doesn't change his focus, when he had given Gohan special attention, from seeing Piccolo going all out vs Shisami, he says nothing at all concerning Piccolo's abilities. Plus, Piccolo didn't seem that much in a holding back state fighting the army. He had his cape and turban off and had no reason not to hit to kill the enemies. If Freeza could assess Gohan as the one capable of wiping out the whole army in an instant based on Gohan not trying to kill, there would be no reason he wouldn't have an accurate assessment on Piccolo's abilities... It seems pretty clear to me the overall intent there.

[Hugo Boss]

Because Freeza deemed him as the strongest seeing their display when Gohan was on his base state. They were all holding back, but the fact Gohan was still the one who drew attention to him besides the knowledge that they were all going easy shows it's the strongest power there regardless of transformations. Which also goes in hand with Toriyama's script of Gohan being the strongest in a scenario they were beating up fodders, which wouldn't require SSJ.

The point of the scene is to again show that strong or very experienced warriors have strong intuitive ability to recognize other strong people, albeit it will never be as perfect as we desire. Same thing happens in the anime with Tagoma sneakily attacking Gohan because his fighting instincts were telling him Gohan was the strongest enemy present there. Note this has nothing to do with their actual power being used in the moment the comment is being made, neither with the specifics of which form is stronger than the other.

By the way, I’m pretty sure Toriyama’s script doesn’t include anything about Gohan being stronger than Piccolo without Super Saiyan. That’s next level of assumption.

The comment was made specifically when Goku turned SSJ2. The comment could very well be done as soon as Goku became a SSJ because the difference in power should be obvious. It doesn't make sense to perform a comment for SSJ2 when Freeza is as irrelevant to SSJ Goku as he is to SSJ2.

That’s because you are probably reading the panel without the full context. Re-read it. For a pragmatic reason, I don’t think there is such a need to make this comment while Goku is a Super Saiyan 1, since Toyotaro wanted to convey Goku impatiently trying to hit Beerus before he could finish his deduction. As soon as Whis told him Saiyans recently acquired the Super Saiyan ability, he realized why he was ignorant. Obviously, he wouldn’t be talking about SS2 since Goku defeated Freeza in SS. It’s a comment based on the past, not in the present.

[Mireya]

Because Freeza deemed him as the strongest seeing their display when Gohan was on his base state. They were all holding back, but the fact Gohan was still the one who drew attention to him besides the knowledge that they were all going easy shows it's the strongest power there regardless of transformations. Which also goes in hand with Toriyama's script of Gohan being the strongest in a scenario they were beating up fodders, which wouldn't require SSJ.

The point of the scene is to again show that strong or very experienced warriors have strong intuitive abilities to recognize other strong people, albeit it will never be as perfect as we desire. Same thing happens in the anime with Tagoma sneakily attacking Gohan because his fighting instincts were telling him Gohan was the strongest enemy present there. Note this has nothing to do with their actual power being used in the moment the comment is being made, neither with the specifics of which form is stronger than the other.

By the way, I’m pretty sure Toriyama’s script doesn’t include anything about Gohan being stronger than Piccolo without Super Saiyan. That’s next level of assumption.

The comment was made specifically when Goku turned SSJ2. The comment could very well be done as soon as Goku became a SSJ because the difference in power should be obvious. It doesn't make sense to perform a comment for SSJ2 when Freeza is as irrelevant to SSJ Goku as he is to SSJ2.

That’s because you are probably reading the panel without the full context. Re-read it. For a pragmatic reason, I don’t think there is such a need to make this comment while Goku is a Super Saiyan 1, since Toyotaro wanted to convey Goku impatiently trying to hit Beerus before he could finish his deduction. As soon as Whis told him Saiyans recently acquired the Super Saiyan ability, he realized why he was ignorant. Obviously, he wouldn’t be talking about SS2 since Goku defeated Freeza in SS. It’s a comment based on the past, not in the present.

I don't remember anything about the Tagoma thing. I barely pay attention to the anime. But the intuition point is to convey that someone's power can be fairly accurately judged even if they aren't using a high effort level. Gohan was likely holding back even more than Piccolo due to his pacifist nature. The fact Freeza singled him out in response to Sorbet disbelief of the army being dismantled, with Freeza making the point of how outmatched the army was and picking Gohan specifically, draws very well the picture he's more impressive than Piccolo even in base.

The script was talking about the moment they were fighting the army and overpowering them and then described each warrior in regards to that very battle. The fact it cited Gohan as the strongest in the context of that battle, while the SSJ was revealed later, shows he's the strongest even without accounting for it. The context revolved around their performance over the army. The moment the comparison was made matters because it wasn't a general comparison, it pertained to the exposition of the very moment they were battling the army, which also conforms to Freeza's estimations.

I don't need to reread it since I've done it many times already and my context is just fine. Beerus had no more time to acknowledge SSJ's capabilities as he had SSJ2, as he performed that statement when defending Goku's attacks. I suggest you to reread the part Beerus was informed a Saiyan defeated Freeza and his then level of excitement about the fact... He was still bored with SSJ, and drew the conclusion with SSJ2. He hadn't the information of the colors of the Saiyans' hair, but it's not like that was a doubt he needed to get solved before he drew the conclusion. Even if he found it strange for him to be a Saiyan, the fact another being was demonstrating power capable of one shotting Freeza would be even worthier of gathering his attention and interest. Only SSJ2 got that. The scene didn't seem like a build up, seemed like the SSJ2 got that precise confirmation from him as he goes from bored to more acknowledging. He need not wait to say as I've detailed above. In some direct translations, like Kami Sama Explorer, Beerus statement is even more in hand with this idea, in which it's worded as "finally, now I understand why you were able to defeat Freeza". In the original manga, which I checked now, Beerus' words allign more with "well, you defeating Freeza is understandable", rather than a clear "no surprise" VIZ put out.

[Hugo Boss]

But the intuition point is to convey that someone's power can be fairly accurately judged even if they aren't using a high effort level. Gohan was likely holding back even more than Piccolo due to his pacifist nature. The fact Freeza singled him out in response to Sorbet disbelief of the army being dismantled, with Freeza making the point of how outmatched the army was and picking Gohan specifically, draws very well the picture he's more impressive than Piccolo even in base.

Well, this perfectly makes sense. To illustrate what I mean:

Mooks - 10
Mercenaries - 40
Piccolo (suppressed) - 50
Base Gohan - 100
Piccolo (fatigued) - 250
Shisami - 250
SS Gohan (fatigued) - 1.000
Piccolo (full power) - 2.500
SS Gohan (full power) - 5.000

The script was talking about the moment they were fighting the army and overpowering them and then described each warrior in regards to that very battle. The fact it cited Gohan as the strongest in the context of that battle, while the SSJ was revealed later, shows he's the strongest even without accounting for it. The context revolved around their performance over the army. The moment the comparison was made matters because it wasn't a general comparison, it pertained to the exposition of the very moment they were battling the army, which also conforms to Freeza's estimations.

Actually, what you talking about is just a general note of what happens in the whole fight. Gohan proves he is the strongest when he defeats the best warrior, but if he was stronger than Shisami in his base form he wouldn’t be expending that much energy with him. That would be counter-intuitive. Besides, it’s informed Gohan can use Super Saiyan before this particular note, so this is something being taken into account.

I don't need to reread it since I've done it many times already and my context is just fine. Beerus had no more time to acknowledge SSJ's capabilities as he had SSJ2, as he performed that statement when defending Goku's attacks. I suggest you to reread the part Beerus was informed a Saiyan defeated Freeza and his then level of excitement about the fact... He was still bored with SSJ, and drew the conclusion with SSJ2. He hadn't the information of the colors of the Saiyans' hair, but it's not like that was a doubt he needed to get solved before he drew the conclusion. Even if he found it strange for him to be a Saiyan, the fact another being was demonstrating power capable of one shotting Freeza would be even worthier of gathering his attention and interest. Only SSJ2 got that. The scene didn't seem like a build up, seemed like the SSJ2 got that precise confirmation from him as he goes from bored to more acknowledging. He need not wait to say as I've detailed above. In some direct translations, like Kami Sama Explorer, Beerus statement is even more in hand with this idea, in which it's worded as "finally, now I understand why you were able to defeat Freeza". In the original manga, which I checked now, Beerus' words allign more with "well, you defeating Freeza is understandable", rather than a clear "no surprise" VIZ put out.

I’m just answering what you asked in the first place. I think you are just heavily misinterpreting what is being conveyed here, which is that Goku defeated Freeza using SS, not SS2.

[Mireya]

Well, this perfectly makes sense. To illustrate what I mean:

Mooks - 10
Mercenaries - 40
Piccolo (suppressed) - 50
Base Gohan - 100
Piccolo (fatigued) - 250
Shisami - 250
SS Gohan (fatigued) - 1.000
Piccolo (full power) - 2.500
SS Gohan (full power) - 5.000

But Freeza had an accurate view over Gohan's overall power. He knew he could end the army in an instant but was holding back. If he knew what he was capable of if Gohan felt like it, I fail to see why he wouldn't do the same to Piccolo, who was likely fighting more unrestricted than Gohan. He's not just assessing his suppressed power, he's talking about his overall power if he feels like it, though his pacifism avoids that. If Gohan were likely to be holding back even more due to his highlighted pacifism, while Piccolo is more relentless and unforgiven against evil guys, then it also raises the question of why a Gohan trying harder not to kill would suppress his power less than Piccolo would. It's also worth noting Freeza didn't comment or retract on his statement upon seeing Piccolo clashing with Shisami. He didn't feel the need to point out Piccolo's power or give away some"oh!" showing surprise as far as I remember.

As for Gohan turning into a SSJ, they needed a senzu after the battle, so he probably wanted it done as quickly as possible to avoid tiring more and reunite with the whole group quicker.

It was a note specific to the fight vs the army, firstly. As the script goes on, Toriyama adds more details. Following them all fighting the army with Gohan as the strongest, AT says Piccolo is having problems with Shisami... And then it comes the SSJ part for Gohan. The part in which Gohan is referenced as the strongest is one script dedicated to going into detail about the fight they were having, so I really think it makes way more sense to consider what Gohan was uaing there --- as it was what the script based off in the sequence. I don't recall if Gohan made sure he could turn into a SSJ yet, last he was asked he said he "perhaps" could do it. The confirmation comes when he does so vs Shisami, but before it, was an overall describing of their act at that moment, describimg the fight they were having when Gohan was in base only.

I mean, yeah Goku can easily defeat Freeza with SSJ only, in a single blast. In the manga, Beerus didn't seem that aware of the appearence of a SSJ... He was excited when he knew that a Saiyan defeated Freeza, which is kinda strange already as he was bothered when fighting SSJ Goku who could easily fell Freeza in a single blow. Wouldn't that already warrant a surprise from him since the confirmation of besting Freeza, which was what he went there expecting, could be done ever so easily by SSJ Goku? Why change to a more excitement phase and say "now" I see how you defesting Freeza is understandable " when feeling the hits of SSJ2 when SSJ and SSJ2 make Freeza look miniscule, in comparison, the same way? Then he says SSJ2 is the extent of Goku's power and Goku turns one more note up... Beerus seems even more excited. So one can have the interpretation Beerus was goading Goku into showing him more power by snide dismissive remsrks. In BoG, maybe a similar situation applies --- Beers knows Goku as base wasn't the state that defeated Freeza and by that statement, goads Goku into showing him his true colours. The anime also has Beerus saying beating Freeza as SSJ1 is the most Goku could accomplish, which also sounds an off statement for someone so strong in regards to Freeza. So there may be some level of overestimation of Freeza by Beerus' part or a way to goad Goku into showing more and more.

Besides, why would the holding back statement apply to Piccolo when he was actively fighting the soldiers while the holding back couldn't apply to Goku when Beerus assessed him? It'd be the same thing. Beerus seemed to even examine his body, which also makes sense in the hypothesis he was comparing Goku's body features with his SSJ self he saw in Whis' crystal ball on Namek.

I really don't see how one evidence can be more clear cut than the other one, as every counter reasoning could be applied here the same way with even more backing imo.

[Hugo Boss]

But Freeza had an accurate view over Gohan's overall power. He knew he could end the army in an instant but was holding back. If he knew what he was capable of if Gohan felt like it, I fail to see why he wouldn't do the same to Piccolo, who was likely fighting more unrestricted than Gohan.

Because Gohan was the example that came to mind among the people that were fighting there and because he resembles Goku the most. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Piccolo would be another person that could instantly wipe out that army, given that he is far stronger than the Super Saiyans that defeated Freeza.

It's also worth noting Freeza didn't comment or retract on his statement upon seeing Piccolo clashing with Shisami. He didn't feel the need to point out Piccolo's power or give away some"oh!" showing surprise as far as I remember.

Again, because this level of scrutiny is not needed. The scene is just there to show that SS Gohan is stronger than Piccolo and Shisami.

It was a note specific to the fight vs the army, firstly. As the script goes on, Toriyama adds more details. Following them all fighting the army with Gohan as the strongest, AT says Piccolo is having problems with Shisami... And then it comes the SSJ part for Gohan. The part in which Gohan is referenced as the strongest is one script dedicated to going into detail about the fight they were having, so I really think it makes way more sense to consider what Gohan was uaing there --- as it was what the script based off in the sequence. I don't recall if Gohan made sure he could turn into a SSJ yet, last he was asked he said he "perhaps" could do it. The confirmation comes when he does so vs Shisami, but before it, was an overall describing of their act at that moment, describimg the fight they were having when Gohan was in base only.

The script follows a linear narrative progression, but occasionally it gives general notes interchangeably with pieces of dialogue. By the way, Gohan said he could probably turn into Super Saiyan. And he does so easily in the movie. The anime that drags that fight out for whatever reason.

Why change to a more excitement phase and say "now" I see how you defesting Freeza is understandable " when feeling the hits of SSJ2 when SSJ and SSJ2 make Freeza look miniscule, in comparison, the same way?

Because the difference between SS and SS2 is irrelevant for Beerus. By the way, he realized Goku was stronger than Freeza before he changed to SS2. Check again. He starts his sentence while Goku was a Super Saiyan and finished it after Goku transformed. Some people can say this is poor writing, but I think the scene makes sense if you see from Beerus perspective.

Besides, why would the holding back statement apply to Piccolo when he was actively fighting the soldiers while the holding back couldn't apply to Goku when Beerus assessed him? It'd be the same thing.

Because if Piccolo fought close to his true power, every hit would be instant kill. Goku had no reason to hold back in front of the strongest in the universe. Totally different situations.

[Kaboom]

Yeah, concluding that Beerus is saying that Goku somehow only surpasses Freeza when he specifically goes SS2 is really missing the forest for the trees. When one actually reads the page normally as a whole, rather than zooming in and trying to pick out power statements, it's pretty clear that Beerus is hardly even paying attention to Goku and making no intentional distinction between his SS1 and SS2. It's just "oh, so this golden-haired thing is what makes you stronger than Freeza, okay then."

[Mireya]

But Freeza had an accurate view over Gohan's overall power. He knew he could end the army in an instant but was holding back. If he knew what he was capable of if Gohan felt like it, I fail to see why he wouldn't do the same to Piccolo, who was likely fighting more unrestricted than Gohan.

Because Gohan was the example that came to mind among the people that were fighting there and because he resembles Goku the most. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Piccolo would be another person that could instantly wipe out that army, given that he is far stronger than the Super Saiyans that defeated Freeza.

It's also worth noting Freeza didn't comment or retract on his statement upon seeing Piccolo clashing with Shisami. He didn't feel the need to point out Piccolo's power or give away some"oh!" showing surprise as far as I remember.

Again, because this level of scrutiny is not needed. The scene is just there to show that SS Gohan is stronger than Piccolo and Shisami.

It was a note specific to the fight vs the army, firstly. As the script goes on, Toriyama adds more details. Following them all fighting the army with Gohan as the strongest, AT says Piccolo is having problems with Shisami... And then it comes the SSJ part for Gohan. The part in which Gohan is referenced as the strongest is one script dedicated to going into detail about the fight they were having, so I really think it makes way more sense to consider what Gohan was uaing there --- as it was what the script based off in the sequence. I don't recall if Gohan made sure he could turn into a SSJ yet, last he was asked he said he "perhaps" could do it. The confirmation comes when he does so vs Shisami, but before it, was an overall describing of their act at that moment, describimg the fight they were having when Gohan was in base only.

The script follows a linear narrative progression, but occasionally it gives general notes interchangeably with pieces of dialogue. By the way, Gohan said he could probably turn into Super Saiyan. And he does so easily in the movie. The anime that drags that fight out for whatever reason.

Why change to a more excitement phase and say "now" I see how you defesting Freeza is understandable " when feeling the hits of SSJ2 when SSJ and SSJ2 make Freeza look miniscule, in comparison, the same way?

Because the difference between SS and SS2 is irrelevant for Beerus. By the way, he realized Goku was stronger than Freeza before he changed to SS2. Check again. He starts his sentence while Goku was a Super Saiyan and finished it after Goku transformed. Some people can say this is poor writing, but I think the scene makes sense if you see from Beerus perspective.

Besides, why would the holding back statement apply to Piccolo when he was actively fighting the soldiers while the holding back couldn't apply to Goku when Beerus assessed him? It'd be the same thing.

Because if Piccolo fought close to his true power, every hit would be instant kill. Goku had no reason to hold back in front of the strongest in the universe. Totally different situations.

It's not because he was Goku's son. Freeza's response came directly from Sorbet's surprise that the army was irrelevant... So to make a point of their irrelevancy, Freeza picked on the strongest character there which could draw the point home of how outmatched they are. The fact that Gohan had a pacifist way of battling was just an added bonus that he complemented later. It wasn't the focus of his statement. The focus was driving the point by picking the strongest one. As for Piccolo being able to do that in an instant, doubt able. Realistically, even Kuririn should... But that's not what we saw... And Gohan needed a senzu post battle. Even tho he turned into a SSJ, it was for a flash, showing the battle was still straining a little. Super's idea of power scaling in regards to feats, the movies included, doesn't always conform to the manga, the original one.


It'd be needed if Piccolo surprised him more than what he expected... To the point he'd be a more relevant example than Gohan. It wasn't.


He says probably but with a smile of uncertainty and nervousness iirc. The script was when the battle with the army was ongoing, it was about that moment in specific and its describing. It isn't talking about them as a whole, it's describing the battle and pointing the strongest with the battle ongoing... Coupled with Freeza's special attention to Gohan, base Gohan > Piccolo seems clear cut.


The excitement wouldn't make that much sense when he was already expecting someone stronger than Freeza. The idea of someone stronger than Freeza excited him, but SSJ itself, which makes Freeza look miniscule did not. SSJ2 did and then the comment was made. The progression with his change of behaviours and excitement makes way more sense with SSJ2 being the state that made him acknowledge it.

Piccolo didn't need to hold back when he was fighting evil guys. He has no reason to go easy. Even if he was, doesn't mean someone like Freeza can't catch up on his level as he did with Gohan who was holding back (if Piccolo was) even more. The same would easily apply to Piccolo. Goku was told to hide... Then later Beerus examined Goku's body and stated it doesn't "appear" he would be able to beat Freeza. Yes, different situations indeed, the RoF one is much more conclusive.