Inclusivity towards women in Dragon Ball?

[VegettoEX]

Conducting the same word search, comparing IPs and hosts -- yep, almost certainly the same individual. And even THAT prior account had a prior account.

[Mireya]

Yes, and I was framed as an imbecile, a sick individual, a monster... Without the right to defend myself. And came back to debate DB only. You are proud of assassinating ppl's reputations? Twisting them?

[JulieYBM]

Yes, and I was framed as an imbecile, a sick individual, a monster... Without the right to defend myself. And came back to debate DB only. You are proud of assassinating ppl's reputations? Twisting them?

Nobody knows who you are nor does anyone care. Just ride off into the sunset—you have nothing to prove here.

[Mireya]

I was here to debate DB only, didn't come back with any other intentions but to discuss what I love. But I couldn't forget the same individual in the first thread outside DB I join now as Mireya framing me as a moron... While he framed me as a monster before, name called me and I hadn't the right to defend myself. I wonder why this guy is allowed a free pass to attack ppl in ways that could be considered calumny. This is a serious issue, those weren't empty words he said.

[Jord]

It really isn't surprising how a manga aimed at young boys has more of a focus on boys/men than women.
Besides, for every supposed "bad" example there are plenty of good written female characters like Bulma,

Who spends the majority of the first arc (the arc where she's most prominent) as the primary target for sexual harassment jokes even her evolution as the group techie is more incidental than by design. If Toriyama didn't need a reason for how she's able to find dragon balls so fast she probably would have been phased out after the first arc quicker than you can say Lunch

I'm wondering what your source is for saying her evolution is incidental. Do you have some source for that. I would love to read it since I'm interested in character development.

And even if that were true, she has been a useful character throughout the whole series, more than a lot of the male characters that were phased out.
She created the Dragon Radar, fixed the space ship to go to Namek, did a lot of research surrounding Gero, helped build or provided the gravity training room for Vegeta and so on. Stood her own against the likes of Vegeta. She's actually one of the more developed characters in the series. Yes, we could judge a character by just one arc but that would be extremely shallow.

18 is like one step foward two steps back. Finally a badass female fighter (cool), she's ultimately just Krillin's prize for being a swell guy (sigh) but Toriyama hasn't forgotten she's a lot stronger than Krillin and gives her time to shine at the 25th Tenkaichi Budokai (cool) but he doesn't care that she's stronger she's still the wife and needs to take care of the child while he goes fighting the evil villain and his army she's better suited to go up against (sigh)

What if it's her choice not to go fight against the bad guys? Why does a woman need to fight to be a strong character? She was a mother at that point and I can imagine she wanted to stay to be there for her daughter. I actually liked the growth from rebel to family woman.
I also liked her part in the super 17 saga in which she helped defeat Super 17.

And Baba uh she sure did exist for that one mini arc as an antagonist with some haha old lady jokes and then uh umm uhhh she ummm uhhhh

Who played a crucial role in that arc in DB, has a unique ability and had some nice cameos in DBZ.
The fact that you have to single out old lady jokes says a lot since every old character gets "old" jokes, regardless of gender.

Just because people are mad at the path fictional characters walk, doesn't make characters badly written.

This isn't nearly as profound as you think it is
[/quote]
And yet you proved me right by your example of Android 18. Thanks

[MasenkoHA]

It really isn't surprising how a manga aimed at young boys has more of a focus on boys/men than women.
Besides, for every supposed "bad" example there are plenty of good written female characters like Bulma,

Who spends the majority of the first arc (the arc where she's most prominent) as the primary target for sexual harassment jokes even her evolution as the group techie is more incidental than by design. If Toriyama didn't need a reason for how she's able to find dragon balls so fast she probably would have been phased out after the first arc quicker than you can say Lunch

I'm wondering what your source is for saying het evolution is incidental. Do you have some proof of that?

What evolution? I'm saying her being the techie made her useful for Toriyama to keep around long before she became Vegeta's designated baby maker. That should be obvious by, just watching the show or reading the manga.

. She's actually one of the more developed characters in the series. Yes, we could judge a character by just one arc but that would be extremely shallow.

That's not character development that's just things she does. Again my entire point is if Toriyama didn't need her to be a tech genius for the purpose of the first arc she would have been phased out not longer after that. You're missing the forest for trees like you usually do.

What if it's her choice not to go fight against the bad guys? Why does a woman need to fight to be a strong character? She was a mother at that point and I can imagine she wanted to stay to be there for her daughter. I actually liked the growth from rebel to family woman.
I also liked her part in the super 17 saga in which she helped defeat Super 17.

Whooooooosh. There you go missing the point again.

Again it's another female character from Dragon Ball whose ultimate role is "wife and mother" Why is it just understood Krillin, the guy who is vastly weaker than 18, is the one who needs to go out and fight Freeza while 18 stays with the kid. In what world does it make sense for the stronger parent to stay and watch the kid while the weaker parent goes to battle? Other than because woman and that's her job to
be a mother first.

Who played a crucial role in that arc in DB, has a unique ability and had some nice cameos in DBZ.
The fact that you have to single oud old lady jokes says a lot since every old character gets "old" jokes, regardless of gender.

Yeah and those other old characters have more than "just lol old and gross looking now" and are also way more prominent than Baba.

And Baba and Suno are such significantly minor characters its kind of sad you have to even pull from them.

And yet you proved me right by your example of Android 18. Thanks

And you proved again, shockingly, that you still don't get the point. What a surprise

[NeoZ Duwang]

What if it's her choice not to go fight against the bad guys? Why does a woman need to fight to be a strong character? She was a mother at that point and I can imagine she wanted to stay to be there for her daughter. I actually liked the growth from rebel to family woman.
I also liked her part in the super 17 saga in which she helped defeat Super 17.

None of this characters are real people, they have no more free will than chesspieces. The choice of her not fighting isn't something she made, but something the writer did, and the only reason the writer does it is because 18 is a woman. Kuririn was a father, and he sure didn't choose not to fight the bad guys, so I don't get your point with 18. Why are men allowed to have kids and still be themselves, while the women have to give up on everything that is not directly related to being a mother?

She helping against Super 17 is nice, but it's only a small drop of water for an entire day of walking in a desert

[JulieYBM]

I think it sucks when women don't get to kick ass in a series about people kicking ass.

I think it sucks when women don't get to have fleshed out character arcs and thoughts and feelings that contradict what is allowed by society.

I think it sucks when women are just treated like decorations, especially in a series aimed at kids.

[Mireya]

I think it sucks when women don't get to kick ass in a series about people kicking ass.

I think it sucks when women don't get to have fleshed out character arcs and thoughts and feelings that contradict what is allowed by society.

I think it sucks when women are just treated like decorations, especially in a series aimed at kids.

And I understand and agree with your sentiments, as they're valid ones.


Speaking of me tho, I was always a left leaning person. Specially economically. In the Vic thread, I just raised questions that kept as a mystery to me at the time, even tho I've reflected upon my view with time, but I was never disrespectful, never condoned sexual aggression in anyways possible, otherwise I'd feel myself worth being killed and hadn't the chance to defend myself upon being name called, framed as a wicked person, without ever receiving a warning... In the first non DB thread I had joined. And the same guy now makes serious speeches that could be seen as associating me with agreeing with sexual violence, which is a so egregious thing that if I had the means I'd sue him, because you've no idea what it is for someone of my standards to read an egregious thing as this. And he gets a free pass, while I never held any arrogant view towards any member, as seen by my both accounts post history.

[MasenkoHA]

which is a so egregious thing that if I had the means I'd sue him, because you've no idea what it is for someone of my standards to read an egregious thing as this. And he gets a free pass, while I never held any arrogant view towards any member, as seen by my both accounts post history.

Are you for real?

Are you an actual human being?

Is this a bit?

[Asin]

...I was originally going to add to this topic, but I feel like with what I have read here, I feel vastly out of my depth, and I see beef going on in here, so I am staying out of this.

[Mireya]

which is a so egregious thing that if I had the means I'd sue him, because you've no idea what it is for someone of my standards to read an egregious thing as this. And he gets a free pass, while I never held any arrogant view towards any member, as seen by my both accounts post history.

Are you for real?

Are you an actual human being?

Is this a bit?

Yes, I'm for real. Specially for being a real human being with feelings, I'm saying this. Because you've no idea to be framed as what you are not and be banned without a single warning without at any time sounding offensive and with no chance to defend myself. And ever since I came back I did only what I like to do, debate DB.

[Kunzait_83]

And as for example, here's one that comes to mind, even tho I don't see it as a prevalent thing you ever so eloquently frame me as:

Back when Harold and Kumar was first being written they were encouraged to make it about a white guy and a black guy instead of a Korean guy and an Indian guy. And that's a show that's over a decade old. And that was the first instance of two popular Asian guys being the leader.

That's... almost the opposite of what's being discussed here. The creators wanted an Asian and an Indian from the getgo, and the studio wanted to force them to make it a white and black guy: that's an example of the studio trying to make the movie LESS diverse and not more diverse.

And the studio lost that battle anyway, so we got a movie with a more ethnically diverse set of leads: which is what the writers of the movie had originally wanted and set out to make in the first place, because they specifically said many times in interviews about the movie that they were sick of seeing movies with white leads, as that didn't match up to their own friend and peer group which was very ethnically diverse in real life.

This mind you was in 2004 (meaning the movie is now two decades old, which is a fair bit more than "over a decade"): idiots on the internet today would likely dub these writers (who again, were the writers of the noted philosophical and existential treatise called Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle) "woke SJWs" were it not for the fact that we hadn't yet had more than a decade of Youtube and 4chan Nazis melting the collective brains of a mass blob of vindictive, resentful, way-too-online neckbeards.

In any case, this example kind of proves the exact opposite point you're making here: that studios for years tried to make movies and media LESS diverse and inclusive ("lets drop the Indian and Asian, and have one of the leads be white"), not more, and in this case it was the original authors who had to fight the system to have their work be more diverse and inclusive, as they originally wanted it.

And these days, those writers wouldn't have that kind of fight with a studio! These days, its MUCH LESS of an uphill battle to have an ethnically diverse set of leads to a major, mainstream studio movie! This is generally seen, by most normal, sane, well-adjusted people, as a GOOD thing and not as something to get twisted out of shape upset over.

Except apparently by emotionally-stunted shut-ins on Youtube, Twitter/X, and 4chan, who have made a whole career and cottage industry over the last 8+ years now pumping out a steady stream of "content" online screeching about how - despite all the real, life and death problems in the world threatening human life as we know it (climate disaster, mass poverty, war and genocide, police and political corruption, take your pick) - more visible black and gay people in Disney movies is the single biggest existential crisis facing humankind today, and that its being "forced on" creators and the public at large (when in reality, its been both a large chunk of the public and most creators who have been fighting for decades and decades now for this to be a normalized thing).

It just pisses me off because people like you will have an intolerant attitude with eloquent way of saying things that frames people as monsters when you're the sicked individual searching for some member to make a fool of, not give them the time to answer since they're banned and come away with humiliating them knowing your yourself is immune to act like an ass constantly because of the position you follow.

Ok, before I address any of this, let me just get this out of the way up front:

No one here ever would have known who you were from years ago if you hadn't brought up an old-ass thread you originally posted in in this thread just now.

You are the one who - completely unprompted - dredged up a 4 year old thread out of nowhere, you're the one who outed yourself as a previously banned user, and you're the one who made this into an issue that's now being discussed here in the first place.

Hell, in my original post you responded to where you started this whole ridiculous "beef" with me in the first place, I wasn't even responding to you or to anything you had said: I was responding to MasenkoHa. You literally could have just not said anything - as again, I wasn't even talking to you in the first place - and no one would have ever known who the hell you were!

Ok, that out of the way: I never "framed" you or anyone else as a "monster" dude. The single worst thing I called you - in a thread from four years ago I might add - was basically stupid. And it wasn't over some trivial "dub vs sub" nonsense or kids anime shit: it was about a real life now-61 year old guy who was VERY credibly accused of serially sexually assaulting and harassing numerous young girls and women - some of whom were underage and as young as 14 years old - who you were defending for no justifiable reason whatsoever.

Beyond that? I never said anything whatsoever to you that framed you as a "monster". You said a bunch of incredibly stupid, deeply ignorant things - as you're doing in this very thread right now - and I called it out for what it was. I did so harshly at the time, yeah, but that was only due to the severity of the topic and its real life consequences on real people's lives. The things you were saying in that thread from four years ago were things that reflect beliefs and viewpoints about sexual assault that help protect abusers and makes it more difficult for victims to speak out about what happened to them and seek justice. Hence my harsh tone I took with you then.

If that topic had no real life, serious stakes, and it was just some dumb Dragon Ball nonsense? I of course never would have called you (or anyone else for that matter) "stupid" over anything like that.

That's it. That's ALL that happened. And you've apparently been bitterly hanging onto this for the last four fucking years. Long after both myself and literally EVERYONE ELSE in this forum had long-since forgotten who the fuck you were or that you even existed.

Yes, and I was framed as an imbecile, a sick individual, a monster... Without the right to defend myself. And came back to debate DB only. You are proud of assassinating ppl's reputations? Twisting them?

1) You don't have a "reputation", good or bad, of any kind. No one knew who the fuck you were until you cited a specific thread you posted in years ago, and no one cared either. You're no one. You're just another internet rando, like me, and like everyone else here.

2) You weren't framed by me as an imbecile: you framed YOURSELF as an imbecile. You want to know who made you look stupid? Look in a mirror, that's the guy who's responsible. You made yourself look stupid four years ago, and you're doing it once again right now. You're the only one here who's making a fool out of you.

3) No one framed you as "a sick individual" or as "a monster". You're being ENTIRELY melodramatic to the point of absurdity. Please come down off the cross here.

You got called stupid. Once, four years ago, in a thread no one here remembered (until you directly cited it yourself), and under a username that no one remembers either. That's it. That's ALL that happened. You got called stupid... because you were defending a sex predator that had been preying on underage girls for years simply because you liked his voice acting. Kind of the textbook definition of stupid.

And you're making yourself look stupid in this very thread here today by bringing all this crap up in the first place, outing yourself COMPLETELY needlessly as a banned user from years ago, and starting a TOTALLY superfluous, pointless, and avoidable fight with me for no reason at all when I wasn't even addressing or speaking to you in the first place.

Hell, you don't even have enough basic wherewithal to list an example of "forced diversity" in media that isn't in fact literally the exact opposite of that.

In short, you're your own worst enemy here. The person you should be mad at is you.

You aren't a member of value, you're here to frame ppl as monsters with overly exaggerated typing way, to vent whatever insecurity you may have or sadness you hold onto, the trait of a weak human being.

My dude, you're literally pycho-analyzing a guy you've never met (me) and know less than NOTHING about. You don't know my name, my age, where I'm from, what I've been through in my life, what I do for a living, how I conduct myself in my day to day life with my friends and family, or with strangers I meet on the street even.

You have nothing whatsoever to point to about me to think that I'm "insecure" (insecure about WHAT exactly? Be specific!) or that I'm holding onto "sadness" (again, sadness about WHAT? Be specific!). You're literally just pulling personality traits and emotions out of thin air about me... because I called you stupid. Once, four years ago (and had long-since forgotten about it until you dredged it up just now), because you said something that was DEMONSTRABLY stupid (and harmful), and because you're apparently still upset about it years later and still holding onto it.

That's all this is: you're sore, years after the fact (long after everyone else had moved on and forgotten about it), because a random guy (me) told you to your face that a stupid thing you said was in fact fucking stupid.

From that one, lone, silly, long-forgotten incident years ago, you're pulling up an entire psychological profile about me. Which of us is "insecure" here exactly?

Grudges aren't hold,

Says the guy who's still bitter about a random, forgettable internet thread from 4 fucking years ago that nobody else here remembers.

though things aren't forgotten easily when the same individual comes at the same person showing again a shitty attitude that's always conveniently glossed over.

My dude: I literally didn't come at you in this thread! I responded to a thing that a TOTALLY different user (MasenkoHa) said that wasn't in ANY WAY directed at you! You inserted yourself into that exchange! You're the only reason we're even having this ridiculous conversation!

You may really feel proud of yourself when you have those wins. How pathetic.

No, I don't feel proud of a single thing relating to this website whatsoever. Most of the time I spent here for many, many years was simply to help kill time and distract myself during an especially rough illness. Then for awhile, it was spent with me helping to look after and assist several people I'd befriended here (off the site) with a lot of real life problems they had been having. And most recently, its just to bullshit with some people I'm familiar with when I have nothing else to do (which these days isn't too often anyways).

I initially posted the thing I posted earlier in the thread (in response to MasenkoHa) literally as an afterthought when I had a minute to myself. The thing you're mad at me about still four years on is an incident I had LONG forgotten about ages and ages ago. I had ZERO intention whatsoever of getting into a dumb internet fight with you - you, random guy I don't know from the man on the fucking moon.

No, I'm not "proud" of anything here: I'm mostly just cringing and embarrassed for you for making a complete fucking fool of yourself for no real reason here in the most easily avoidable way imaginable.

[JulieYBM]

I hope that Artificial Human #18, Videl and Chi-Chi get to fight in Daima. I think that would be a nice curveball. Hopefully Gokuu and Vegeta won't be the only folks fighting.

[Mireya]

and the person that that insult was aimed at was a guy who was literally doing apologetics for serial sexual assault/harassment.

This is the thing I took offense with since you pretty much associated me with a defensor of a sexual predator. You're basically saying I agree with heinous acts of sexual aggression and attacks of minors. While I was in the wrong there as I took stances that I found contradictory, I can't put up with someone associating me with a supporter of a sexual predator, which attaches me to a a crime I am apologetically of. You didn't say I defended him, you said I condoned the sexual assault of minors, which is an offense I can't take lightly and a serious calumny that can't let go of. You replied to Masenko-Ha addressing my point in specific calling it stupid and now you are basically saying I condoned acts of aggression of minors which is such an insane thing that warrants legal actions, as I won't ever put up with someone associating me to a heinous crime. You weren't addressing only Masenko. You addressed me in specific with your ignorant bizarre holier than thou attitude and framed me as a criminal. I may not know a single thing about yourself, but I know from attitudes like this that you're a weak individual, someone who sets ppl up with fancy words and get away with it. This is all I need you're a weak minded individual who has no sense of what is a serious thing to associate others too. I didn't set me up, you tied me as a defensor of those practices and me as a not cowards person like you, want to know you because you can't believe what's like to be told this.

You addressed his post that was a response to my post responding my post in specific, you clown,p. And then later said I was a defensor of sexual aggression. This isn't a light thing to be told, it's a serious imputation of a heinous crime that is as serious as it gets when I never ever said those practices were ok for more that my reasonings were flawed. So yes, I don't need to know you personally to see you're a coward and a huge calluniator.

[AliTheZombie13]

I hope that Artificial Human #18, Videl and Chi-Chi get to fight in Daima. I think that would be a nice curveball. Hopefully Gokuu and Vegeta won't be the only folks fighting.

Same. The way Toriyama portrayed Videl at first as not wanting to give up even in the face of certain doom, only to have her go, "Eh, I suck, good luck Gohan, let's marry someday." Was just... why? Same with #18 in Z. She was a mom, but she still fought.

[Jord]

What if it's her choice not to go fight against the bad guys? Why does a woman need to fight to be a strong character? She was a mother at that point and I can imagine she wanted to stay to be there for her daughter. I actually liked the growth from rebel to family woman.
I also liked her part in the super 17 saga in which she helped defeat Super 17.

None of this characters are real people, they have no more free will than chesspieces. The choice of her not fighting isn't something she made, but something the writer did, and the only reason the writer does it is because 18 is a woman. Kuririn was a father, and he sure didn't choose not to fight the bad guys, so I don't get your point with 18. Why are men allowed to have kids and still be themselves, while the women have to give up on everything that is not directly related to being a mother?

She helping against Super 17 is nice, but it's only a small drop of water for an entire day of walking in a desert

Why do you base 18's/Kuririn' choice for him to fight/ be himself on his gender and subsequently stretch it out towards all men? I find that kind of sexist, actually.

18 May be stronger but what she has in power, she lacks in experience. How many battles against formidable opponents has she been in? She was way overpowered against Trunks/Gohan and the Z-warriors, then she quickly lost against Cell. She had no formal training. Even though she is pretty strong, her lack of battle experience could jeopardize the whole mission.

Kuririn meanwhile has a ton of battle experience, has previously fought alongside Gohan, Vegeta and Goku. They know each other's techniques and can utilize them in a team effort. Based on experience, not gender, it seems like Kuririn is the obvious choice.

[JulieYBM]

I hope that Artificial Human #18, Videl and Chi-Chi get to fight in Daima. I think that would be a nice curveball. Hopefully Gokuu and Vegeta won't be the only folks fighting.

Same. The way Toriyama portrayed Videl at first as not wanting to give up even in the face of certain doom, only to have her go, "Eh, I suck, good luck Gohan, let's marry someday." Was just... why? Same with #18 in Z. She was a mom, but she still fought.

I dislike that she stopped being involved in fighting after that awful fight against Spopovich. I think that it would have been cool if she had continued to fight and grow stronger through the arc and then through the modern material. Heck, maybe even reveal that her mother was a demon and Videl had inherited some of those traits as a transformation for her own?

[AliTheZombie13]

I don't think she needed a dramatic reveal like that.
I mean, #17 and Freeza got billions of times stronger by casually training off-screen for a few months.

[ABED]

I'd like to see 18 become a bigger part of the cast. I find a character like her really interesting. She's seemingly cold and dethatched but there's a heart in there. And as far as fighting, she has the eternal energy thing as well as not having detectible ki, which could be employed strategically in battle. I see no reason to not give her more to do.