Official Unofficial Power Level Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

The RoF one is so conclusive you wouldn't even think of it without reading this direction cue on the obscure, hard to find script.

[Hugo Boss]

So to make a point of their irrelevancy, Freeza picked on the strongest character there which could draw the point home of how outmatched they are.

That could be very well the case, but for real this is just one way of interpreting that scene — that Freeza is suggesting Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo — and one that directly contradicts the movie itself, not to mention the previous movie. I’m still scratching my head at why you decided to approach it that way.

As for Piccolo being able to do that in an instant, doubt able. Realistically, even Kuririn should... But that's not what we saw...

Everyone, except for Jaco and Roshi were capable of that. The problem is that they were restricted to non-lethal blows and there was too many soldiers to deal with, sapping their energy quickly. Senzu beans corroborate the idea.

The progression with his change of behaviours and excitement makes way more sense with SSJ2 being the state that made him acknowledge it.

My good lord, just read Kaboom’s comment after mine.

Piccolo didn't need to hold back when he was fighting evil guys. He has no reason to go easy.

Short answer: we wouldn’t have enough screen time if SS Gohan blitzed 1,000 soldiers in a millisecond. Long answer: Eartlings are soft and they kinda needed to buy time until Goku and Vegeta arrive, since Freeza was far beyond their scope, so dragging that fight out was a smart move.


On a side note, I think I genuinely gave extra consideration to these questions, but it seems this user has preconceived idea as to what the answer should be, so I won’t address identical questions from him again. Just something to think about.

[Mireya]

So to make a point of their irrelevancy, Freeza picked on the strongest character there which could draw the point home of how outmatched they are.

That could be very well the case, but for real this is just one way of interpreting that scene — that Freeza is suggesting Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo — and one that directly contradicts the movie itself, not to mention the previous movie. I’m still scratching my head at why you decided to approach it that way.

As for Piccolo being able to do that in an instant, doubt able. Realistically, even Kuririn should... But that's not what we saw...

Everyone, except for Jaco and Roshi were capable of that. The problem is that they were restricted to non-lethal blows and there was too many soldiers to deal with, sapping their energy quickly. Senzu beans corroborate the idea.

The progression with his change of behaviours and excitement makes way more sense with SSJ2 being the state that made him acknowledge it.

My good lord, just read Kaboom’s comment after mine.

Piccolo didn't need to hold back when he was fighting evil guys. He has no reason to go easy.

Short answer: we wouldn’t have enough screen time if SS Gohan blitzed 1,000 soldiers in a millisecond. Long answer: Eartlings are soft and they kinda needed to buy time until Goku and Vegeta arrive, since Freeza was far beyond their scope, so dragging that fight out was a smart move.


On a side note, I think I genuinely gave extra consideration to these questions, but it seems this user has preconceived idea as to what the answer should be, so I won’t address identical questions from him again. Just something to think about.

You may say it's one way, although it's the most likely way considering the context of Sorbet's questions... The thing you mentioned is just a complement Freeza added to what he felt about reflecting upon Gohan.

Even when restricted to non-lethal blows, you can easily knock them out in a way you won't kill them in a very quick fashion, as shown with Goku Vs the Ginyus, in which the numbers are less but the difference in power is way smaller. If you have the power to knock them out without killing them, you can easily do it --- they can, actually, as trained warriors. Super placed emphasis on the number of soldiers still tiring them. And you've yet to address why would Piccolo be more suppressed than Gohan... To the point he didn't get the attention Gohan got. And your rationalization of Toriyama's quote comes off as a hard turning eye to something that described a fight in which Gohan was in base. It didn't, wasn't structured in a general way, it depicted the ongoing moment and the state of it. You didn't address any of that. If anyone's repeating points, it quite obviously is you, as you don't address them.

I did read and disagree. I've read the scene in question many times, why don't you show this with convincing words rather than pretending to know?

And the reason Gohan didn't kill them was highlighted by Freeza due to his pacifism, plus Kuririn had to be saved by Gohan once. So the words you said to me once, I turn them back at you --- re-watch the movie.

And I don't know why you're addressing me as a third person saying you won't address anymore. If you don't feel like continuing, it's your choice. I'm defending what I strongly believe is correct, I was seeking for counter point or ppl's opinions on my logic... That doesn't mean I need to budge when I feel what was said lacked in substance. What you say is a repeat is actually a different way of saying things since I know the context of the scene from the fight by having read many times and you haven't offered anything that refutes it as I could confirm by yet another reading.

[Mireya]

Speaking about Kaboom 's post, Beerus didn't know Goku had a golden hair. He wasn't informed they turned into that state to defeat Freeza when Whis informed him of that, unlike in the movie.

Chapter 2
Page 2
Whis : "Freeza was defeated by a Saiyan named Son Goku, who resides on Earth now.";
Beerus : " Freeza was defeated?? [Looks excited] well, then we know our next destination";

No information on the golden hair. Beerus was seen excited by meeting the being who defeated Freeza.

Then they fight for a while and Beerus, while bothered, ponders that all Saiyans had black hair, to which Whis states:

"What you're seeing right now is a transformation called Super Saiyajin. It's a skill they recently learned".

Beerus : "I see".

No hint of any comment on the matter of Freeza being defeated ever being about to be made.

Goku confirms Whis' affirmation and turns into SSJ2, which for the first time makes Beerus block and laugh in a more interested way.

Beerus then changes his bored expression and says "well, I'd say defeating Freeza is convincing/believable".

With nothing of the sort being hint to have been about to be laid out before it... Beerus' change in a slightly more exciting way actually builds up the state shown right then, SSj2, as the one who made it convincing.... Which matches, also, moreso the exciting way Beerus appeared upon being informed of the act itself. And we all know that saying it to SSJ2 is an understatement as defeating Freeza as SSJ is as easily replicated as SSJ2, yet it can't be denied Freeza didn't openly spoke about the glarring evidence of it happening there, which is as easy to realize as it can be. I'm not the one separating the two states and ignoring the build up, the story built up the SSJ2 state with Beerus' change in demeanour and statement directed to that in specific, not me. The "I see", which was Beerus' response to Whis, was in regards to Goku having a transformation that changes the hair colour, not a realisation about to be said that he defeated Freeza.

So I'm not overthinking, missing the forest for the trees or ignoring any point here as I was falsely stated to... I'm taking the scene for what it was, the ones adding up things are you two. And I don't mean any arrogance or prepotency in saying that, really. I'm being the most respectful possible.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Yea, we've always suspected it, but RoF brought the Base Saiyans > Piccolo evidence harder than ever. Previously we had a wealth of implications already suggesting it. It wasn't much of a debate until Beerus' line. However, Beerus' line is automatically running into severe problems. We know Goku is the strongest of the lot in BoG. Goku has not only surpassed Gotenks, but Gohan as well, by a significant margin no doubt.

So we have the clear power chain indicating Base Saiyan superiority very quickly.

Base Goku (BoG) > Base Gotenks (BoG) > Super Saiyan Kids (BoG)

We know Base Gotenks is at least stronger than the Super Saiyan kids.

Then, we have the whole Kaioshin thing. Put it this way, there is no way to keep the narrative if you think Kaioshin is very strong. The only way to make sense of the Kaioshin thing is to understand he's piss weak, way weaker than the Base Saiyans.

Piccolo at least proved he's somewhat capable of keeping up with a super weak Base RoF Gohan, who is probably the weakest Base Saiyan we see from the adults post-Cell Games.

I think the Kaioshin > Piccolo thing is overstated, it's based on nothing and the guides ran with it. Kaioshin looks at the Base Saiyans as tremendous beings way beyond him. Somehow, I don't think Piccolo would feel the same. Piccolo also manhandles Badibi with ease, a being Kaioshin was concerned about. Super shows us Kaioshin would have got it done, but still, it's possible evidence.

Here's what I go with...

Base Goku (CG) > Base RoF Gohan > Piccolo > Base Kids (Post Rosat) = Base Vegeta/Future Trunks CG > Base Kids Pre Rosat = Android 18

That's what we are shown. That is what is most consistent. And Kaioshin is as weak as you need him to be. Personally I've been making it work putting him at SSJ Goku Androids level.

Base Goku ~ Yakon > Expected Saiyans ~ Vegeta (vs Pui Pui) > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin


Kaioshin is not who we thought he'd be. His best feat turns out to being way stronger than Freeza.

Also his survival feats may have a lot to do with Majin Buu possibly holding back on him due to Kaioshin influence.

Piccolo is weak sauce and Kaioshin is absolute trash, that's the only way this saga makes any sense! Don't forget Kaioshin can literally see how fast they move. If he's watching Pui Pui move at 50x slower than himself, he would have zero concerns!

[Mireya]

For more that I agree with the RoF implying that, I don't buy the strength of the base Saiyans in regards to whatever implications were made in the ship. I take the most factual one, base kids being somewhere in the realm of 18 amd scale the other base Saiyans on top of that.

[PowerLevelGuy]

You shouldn't be discounting the source material.

Base Goku ~ Yakon > Expected Saiyans (Post Pui Pui Destruction) > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Is what this segment shows. It shows us that Kaioshin is super weak. And that the Base Saiyans scale many times over him.

1. Expected Saiyans are known to be above Kaioshin by Kaioshin and Badibi.
2. Pui Pui is supposed to be able to beat all 3 Saiyans at once, with Kaioshin helpless to do anything.
3. Vegeta easily dispatches of Pui Pui, radically altering Badibi and Kaioshin's expectations of the Saiyans.
4. This new level of Saiyan expectation is still supposed to get crushed by Yakon vs all 3 with Kaioshin helpless again.
5. Goku at worst, matches Yakon.

Kaioshin is absolutely nothing, he can't crack it against Badibi's guys, he's just that weak. We gotta stop head canoning this segment to mean that Kaioshin can't tell when someone is 100x weaker than him. It's madness.

[Kaboom]

So we allegedly "know" stuff that isn't explicitly said and stems from fans' own lopsided "everything ever is a power statement" way of reading scenes. But then stuff that is explicitly told to us is "overstated" and "based on nothing" and "headcanon." Am I getting the message here?

[Mireya]

You shouldn't be discounting the source material.

Base Goku ~ Yakon > Expected Saiyans (Post Pui Pui Destruction) > Pui Pui > Expected Saiyans > Kaioshin

Is what this segment shows. It shows us that Kaioshin is super weak. And that the Base Saiyans scale many times over him.

1. Expected Saiyans are known to be above Kaioshin by Kaioshin and Badibi.
2. Pui Pui is supposed to be able to beat all 3 Saiyans at once, with Kaioshin helpless to do anything.
3. Vegeta easily dispatches of Pui Pui, radically altering Badibi and Kaioshin's expectations of the Saiyans.
4. This new level of Saiyan expectation is still supposed to get crushed by Yakon vs all 3 with Kaioshin helpless again.
5. Goku at worst, matches Yakon.

Kaioshin is absolutely nothing, he can't crack it against Bobbidi's guys, he's just that weak. We gotta stop head canoning this segment to mean that Kaioshin can't tell when someone is 100x weaker than him. It's madness.

Yet Shin didn't react that abrasively to SSJ2 Gohan who should logically be stronger than base Vegeta. He forgot for a moment, sure, but does forgetting you sensed a 10 power mean you need to overreact at a 2 power? No, so there was definitely something else affecting how Shin would normally react... Likely his fear towards Boo. He's associating everything related to Boo with a very cautious approach and making the danger more than it is for someone like him, due to how much he fears Boo... Likely due to a heavy fear and emotional scar Boo left over him. When you see him being forced to fight fat Boo who although suppressed was already above any SSJ2 level shown, he doesn't to THAT terribly. I mean, he can still stand up and fight after receiving powerful blows and even if a little, his kiai type attack budges Boo somewhat.

The fact Shin only remembered they can put forth huge power in a pitch like Goku did briefly with SSJ2, alluding that "it was also hard to restrain Gohan back then" indicates he wasn't in a rational state of mind... His fear was taking the best out of him. Logically, he shouldn't react that way knowing Gohan's power. But even when he sensed Gohan's power he maintained a collected expression, though admitting it far surpassed his estimations... But didn't think it was a done deal, piece of cake dealing with Bobbidi's underlings despite sensing the power who's likely ~ Dabura... That shows he had no clue on how powerful they were and wasn't assessing their power correctly, like because he overestimated the warriors due to Bobbidi's reputation of gathering strong warriors, not even managing to get through it by observing their movements.

The Saiyans don't know the threat Boo poses... So it's a plaything to them... Shin already associates things Boo-related in a heavier way. Vegeta points out once sensing suppressed Boo that he was weak and only strong by Shin's perspective, who kept being surprised with their power... But that shift tone of perception is easily seen as soon as Vegeta feels Boo's increased power and sees, inferably, where Shin was coming from... The father and son Saiyans seemed on a trip there, while Vegeta was bored since he deemed the Saiyans as the top dogs and everything else seen as nuisances for their fight.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Yep, Shin's reactions to SSJ2 Gohan and Base Vegeta are indeed not consistent. This is why so many people have a hard time grasping the Buu Saga. The author is literally all over the place.

What changed is probably how the author wanted to portray Shin. We know Shin is completely blown away by Base Vegeta's power. So the author probably went a different direction then originally intended.

Shin probably looks to do ok against Fat Buu due to Fat Buu taking it easy on him for being a Kaioshin. There is still a lot of Kaioshin influence in Fat Buu, so I think that's what explains Shin's survival feats.

Shin is nowhere near Dabura, absolutely not.

Shin considers Super Saiyan Gohan to be a tremendously strong power, one in which, he could have gone the Z-Sword route.

Shin is weaker than the Base Saiyans, by far. Shin's reactions to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan are not upheld, remember, Super Saiyan 2 Gohan is way above Dabura. So Shin's initial reactions to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan are either the author changing things or perhaps he didn't sense Gohan accurately.

[Mireya]

That's going out of universe though. In-universe, there's that explanation --- Shin wasn't in the right state of mind... And since the story is indeed inconsistent, we can only make our theories to make the best out of it.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Yeah, Shin wasn't in the right state of mind at the Budokai. He deeply underestimated how strong Super Saiyan 2 Gohan was. An inconsistent story is made consistent through the events that happen later, not earlier. So the true Shin is the one we saw at Badibi's ship, not the Shin we thought of during the Budokai.

Shin cannot tangle with Badibi's weaklings, regardless of the events of the Budokai. What happens later supersedes what happened before.

Same thing with Piccolo, we all thought he was strong at the Cell Games, but he just turned out to be Base Saiyan fodder at the Buu Saga.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I think it goes the other way around. He's clearly in the right state of mind at the Budokai, not so much at the spaceship. He's reminded of SSJ2 Gohan moments before Yakon shows up.

I think Piccolo is only considered strong at the Cell Games because people want him to be. He has 0 feats other than an off-screen fight that wasn't going his way.

[ZombieVito]

I think Piccolo is only considered strong at the Cell Games because people want him to be. He has 0 feats other than an off-screen fight that wasn't going his way.

Vegeta and Trunks weren't doing so hot either. The Cell Juniors they were fighting weren't even damaged. That cover art that shows all 3 of them still standing with similar damage is proof enough for me that Piccolo wasn't THAT far off of Vegeta and Trunks.

If I had to give a number, Piccolo would be at 70-75% of them. Enough for RoF arc Piccolo to be stronger than Goten and Trunks as confirmed in the U6 arc after a decade of training.

[PowerLevelGuy]

Shin is in the right state of mind later because that's what the story upholds. Shin can literally see Pui Pui's movements. And he stills decides to crap himself. Imagine if Pui Pui was moving a 1/100th the speed of Kaioshin. Why would he be shook?

[Hugo Boss]

So we allegedly "know" stuff that isn't explicitly said and stems from fans' own lopsided "everything ever is a power statement" way of reading scenes. But then stuff that is explicitly told to us is "overstated" and "based on nothing" and "headcanon." Am I getting the message here?

Absolutely, it's baffling. We're expected to grasp implied nuances in the narrative, yet when something is explicitly stated or showed, it's dismissed as exaggeration or baseless.

By the way, despite being a god, Shin is quite ignorant about combat technicalities and other important stuff that usually full-fledged gods know about, because he probably didn’t receive enough lessons (not his fault anyway). He had very casual knowledge about fighting stuff and power hierarchy of the universe, basing his assumptions in reputation rather than firsthand experience. This is just another way of saying that you shouldn’t judge the book by its cover.

[Mireya]

Well, I feel the RoF is as blatant as BoG. And if we are left with the manga alone, the evidence is heavily on one side imo. I wouldn't say the base Saiyans outstrip Piccolo and Shin is an ant (although there're valid implications for that in the manga as well... But it's not the only path once can take)... It's not like beyond the BoG's line, there's any more glarring evidence for Freeza > base Saiyans, quite the contrary...

[Grimlock]

It's not like beyond the BoG's line, there's any more glarring evidence for Freeza > base Saiyans, quite the contrary...

And even that line is questionable, because:

• Beerus so far cannot and does not have the ability to say how strong someone is with accuracy just by looking or poking a person.
• Beerus' line came before his fight began, not after it ended.
• Beerus' line came after he saw Goku changing into Super Saiyan to defeat Freeza through Whis' staff earlier in the movie.

Other things to consider is that stuff will, for the vast majority of time, be taken at face value by the people of this fanbase. Which can lead into misunderstanding/misinterpreting. Also, I have been told that that line was delivered in present tense in Japanese, which could explain this endless debate, but there is more to unpack here. Like, this is the same language that seemingly doesn't have plural, I wouldn't be surprised if it also doesn't have past tense as well.

[QuakingStar]

DB is known for retcons, power creep and power seep. It's also known for contradictions. One retcon is the whole "Goku can't used the relaxed ability that Jiren can use" When we saw him use it in the Namek Arc. There are some things fans are arguing over that is just plain out silly.

[PowerLevelGuy]

While I would say, "Freeza > Base Saiyans" is certainly wishful thinking, the series didn't do itself any favors by presenting this implication by such a manner. It's understandable how it can be confusing to those who aren't completely aware of all of the other implications and facts. It's a disservice and has riled up a debate that was one dead.