Why the Black Frieza saga will not be seen

[Alkiser]

At least not in the manga exclusive saga because Frieza has to live both in the manga and in the anime, so in the manga Toyotaro will not choose to put him to death. The only opportunity for some serious fighting with him is in the next movie, because as we know it will be part of both manga and anime story continuities. Also, it's not so sure that Black Frieza's form exists in the anime continuity because the anime ignored the manga sagas by the very fact that the script for this film was written even before the Broly film was released.

And the most important issue is whether Toriyama will want to put him to death the moment he brought him back to life for the umpteenth time. I think this is already a character who will still be cruel but will already be closer to a very cruel anti-hero than a real-life villain looking at the fact that he didn't kill Goku and Vegeta when he had the chance and also didn't intentionally help them by killing Gas. I think even Toriyama doesn't want to kill him because he could have already done it in the movie Broly when Gogeta grabbed him by the wrist and let him fly away even though he brought danger to earth in the form of Broly.

[Magnificent Ponta]

I could be wrong, but I didn't get the impression that Freeza's appearance in the Granolah arc was with the idea of laying the ground for any particular future storyline in any case - it seems likelier that his newfound power is just a convenient pretext for Goku and Vegeta to continue to have a specific new challenge to train themselves against and surpass. Until the next one comes along.

[Cipher]

I think of all the potential future story arcs, a straightforward third trip around with Freeza as the main villain is among the least likely.

In the vein of former antagonists prior, it seems far more in DB’s wheelhouse (and just good storytelling) to use him to establish another new threat, or return as a reluctant ally.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I really don’t see why. If they made a point to keep him alive, it’s because they want to tell more stories with him. It’s not like they can come up with anything better, all the new stories consist of recycling old stories and/or involve Freeza somehow (Broly, Granolah).

[ChronoTwigger]

You talk by given assumptions out of your exclusive perception of things.
Super shown they *CAN* do whatever with the franchise, even splitting the narrative lines in two.
Your out of nowhere points that also lead to contradictions:
* So far, Moro, Granolah, Ultra Ego and many elements *ARE MANGA EXCLUSIVES* and we don't own any clues that such stuff will be animated ever.
* Frieza is not fated to die the ending of any arc. He didn't (technically) in at least two arcs.
* The saga can star B Frieza as any role, like Granolah wasn't the real antagonist in his own arc. Frieza was already the antagonist and ally, he can get any role.
* No one know about the new movie, or if any movie will be made inside Super frame of Dragon Ball anymore.No news about = no. They just said a new movie will be done. Maybe in 2050.

You can be right, but you didn't came with a solid proof for your theories, so you're in an indeterministic range.

[Alkiser]

You talk by given assumptions out of your exclusive perception of things.
Super shown they *CAN* do whatever with the franchise, even splitting the narrative lines in two.
Your out of nowhere points that also lead to contradictions:
* So far, Moro, Granolah, Ultra Ego and many elements *ARE MANGA EXCLUSIVES* and we don't own any clues that such stuff will be animated ever.
* Frieza is not fated to die the ending of any arc. He didn't (technically) in at least two arcs.
* The saga can star B Frieza as any role, like Granolah wasn't the real antagonist in his own arc. Frieza was already the antagonist and ally, he can get any role.
* No one know about the new movie, or if any movie will be made inside Super frame of Dragon Ball anymore.No news about = no. They just said a new movie will be done. Maybe in 2050.

You can be right, but you didn't came with a solid proof for your theories, so you're in an indeterministic range.

He cites the words of former DB Room head Akio Iyoku last year, who explicitly said that manga and anime are their own story continuities.

https://www.imageantra.com/super-hero-t ... nga-canon/

[J Bame]

Some people think that just because the manga stuff has yet to be referenced anywhere else that it isn't "canon" or that Toriyama doesnt care about it.

That's simply not true. Toyotaro doesnt do what he wants, everything in the manga at the very least needs to have Toriyama's approval before it goes out. There is also a chance that he helps Toyotaro with writing these arcs, as the Heeters were designed with Toriyama's input in mind.

So yes, it's very likely we'll see a canon Black Frieza later on. Will he be an antagonist, or a mere startup of an even bigger arc later on? We have no way to tell. We don't even know why anything in the manga past ToP refuses to appear in any other Dragon Ball media.

[Alkiser]

Some people think that just because the manga stuff has yet to be referenced anywhere else that it isn't "canon" or that Toriyama doesnt care about it.

That's simply not true. Toyotaro doesnt do what he wants, everything in the manga at the very least needs to have Toriyama's approval before it goes out. There is also a chance that he helps Toyotaro with writing these arcs, as the Heeters were designed with Toriyama's input in mind.

So yes, it's very likely we'll see a canon Black Frieza later on. Will he be an antagonist, or a mere startup of an even bigger arc later on? We have no way to tell. We don't even know why anything in the manga past ToP refuses to appear in any other Dragon Ball media.

Nah rather Super has two canons of its own, the manga canon and the anime canon, and both follow their own course not counting the theatrical films which are common in storyline to both continuities. The manga canon is not the canon for the anime canon and that's just it.

[ZeroNeonix]

This kind of thing really makes me wish they'd bring the anime back and adapt the manga arcs. Having two (or three, depending on who you ask) separate canons is needlessly confusing, and I really don't appreciate how the manga has been treated as this lesser thing to the anime/movies. We don't get any merch or representation in the games. It's like the manga doesn't even exist. The longer they go without adapting the manga, the less likely it feels like they're going to do it, but I would very much appreciate them at least attempting to keep some level of consistency between the canons. Right now, it's kind of a mess.

To address the Black Frieza thing, though, it's really hard to predict what they're going to do next. Maybe Toyotaro didn't even have a plan when he introduced Frieza's new form. Maybe Black Frieza will get another manga-exclusive story arc for the movies to ignore. But yeah, if Frieza is still alive in the anime/movie continuity, he probably wouldn't be killed off in the manga. So maybe Frieza will reluctantly team up with Goku to challenge a bigger threat. Who knows? I doubt Toyotaro will drop Black Frieza entirely, but we can't really know what's going to happen until we see it.

[GokuHater]

Why d'you assume that any arc containing Black Freeza would end in this death?
Super so far has shown exactly the opposite idea for this character.

He will probably live on as long as he is profitable.

[Lance Freeman]

Why d'you assume that any arc containing Black Freeza would end in this death?
Super so far has shown exactly the opposite idea for this character.

He will probably live on as long as he is profitable.

Unless they really want to try and reset the status quo so that GT can still happen, then he needs to die to keep continuity with that whole thing.

[Basaku]

Why d'you assume that any arc containing Black Freeza would end in this death?
Super so far has shown exactly the opposite idea for this character.

He will probably live on as long as he is profitable.

Unless they really want to try and reset the status quo so that GT can still happen, then he needs to die to keep continuity with that whole thing.

Theoretically that could be their motivtion but I doubt it personally. They haven't shown any regards towards sustaining compatibility with GT since the modern DB revival started. They sure did with EOZ, constantly referencing it on and off screen as the goalpost and whatnot, but with GT they act as if they couldn't care less, introducing multiple events and plots points in Super that straight out crap all over GT. Not to mention straight-out stealing GT's main ideas (Granolah stealing Baby's core story, Daima stealing the base GT premise). Keeping it in the 'official timeline' mentions here and there just seems like a completly hollow ploy to sustain the GT merch/dlc sales based on an extremly thin veil of "pretend-canonicity".

Even tho I'm not that into another Freeza saga I think it just needs to happen and end his revived era somehow. Especially since it's been going on for almost a decade at this point. Narratively speaking, keeping him alive for years and years "because he's popular!" just doesn't make sense for multitude of reasons:

- it conflicts with multiple characters who want nothing else than to remove him from existance (Vegeta, multiple Namekians, Frost, Broly and the list keeps going)

- he's been a straight out evil psychopath with no redeeming qualities for the last 30+ years to the audience so a redemption arc wouldn't work at all at this point

- his continued existance keeps retroactively undercutting and cheapening the original saga in Z, the developement in that arc, the sacrifices and etc (and yes, moron-Goku's excitement for Freeza's strenght is just as unfitting and Toriyama's writing here is simply shit)

- all of this training buildup, talking about overtaking the gods, the looming consequences of the price for getting him into TOP, multiple flashbacks and story callbacks to the planet Vegeta's destruction, the whole Granolah arc, even Beerus talking about Freeza from the start of Battle of Gods for nothing? What's even the point of building expectations and narrative like that if they just gonna turn him into a silly "I'll get you next time!" villain with a new evil plot of the week #2857 for the next 20 years in the franchise? Just because "profits"? Should profits absolutely trump over even the basic principles of storytelling?

- he may be the archnemesis of this series but even an archnemesis needs to be DONE at some point. Freeza and his shtick IS getting boring again at this point already. DB needs new ideas, not a constant rehashing and recycling of the old stuff and villains

- before EOZ is the natural and clean point to end Freeza along with the whole Z and its supplementing-interquel-Super story. Whatever comes next after EOZ should really try some more new stuff and ideas, not the same rehash of Z over and over again

- there should be SOME resolution of something major introduced in the Super era before it actually ends. You can't just have a massive new story section that adds a ton of new lore, subplots, characters, themes and stories and basically doesn't resolve a single one of the major ones at the end. It doesn't have to resolve all or even most of them, but something should conclude thematically this era. Sure, we could have Goku vs Beerus rematch. But unless they want to make Goku the new God of Destruction it would hardly be a fullfilling conclusion if in the end Beerus just keep on doing what he's been doing for 10 years and Goku get a win that ammounts to nothing as there was no stakes whatsoever and the fight was about score points. Same goes for the potential Jiren rematch. Yay Goku won and literally no one in the 12 universes cares or is affected by it one way or another

So yeah /rant but I'm starting to think this final Freeza saga needs to happen eventually, and better sooner than later

[Hellspawn28]

Why d'you assume that any arc containing Black Freeza would end in this death?
Super so far has shown exactly the opposite idea for this character.

He will probably live on as long as he is profitable.

Unless they really want to try and reset the status quo so that GT can still happen, then he needs to die to keep continuity with that whole thing.

The events of GT can't happen in the same timeline as Super. There's way too many contradictions for it to happen.

[Brettjr25]

I'm confused, when did the prevalent thought shift back to being that GT is canon? I thought at the start of Super and throughout the anime, everyone considered it non canon to the Super story lines.

Anyway, I think people keep saying Black Freeza isn't happening because they can't think of a creative way for him to be used.

Black Freeza should be strong enough to challenge GoDs now and his whole new plot could be that he collected the Super Dragon Balls and created a universe 14 where he rules it and prepares for a war on Zeno. The Grand Priest then enlist Goku and a team he forms to invade Freeza new universe since in his new universe Zeno and the angels have no powers since their not divinity there.

[Basaku]

I'm confused, when did the prevalent thought shift back to being that GT is canon? I thought at the start of Super and throughout the anime, everyone considered it non canon to the Super story lines.

I don't think the prevalent thought shifted, I was just mentioning the fact that despite no one treating GT as canon, including Toei/Sheuisha, it's still being sometimes included in the official timeline charts. Probably for the sake of vague pretense of canonicity so that the merch/license sales don't drop even further. It's not unusual because they know people DO take it into consideration. Especially when there's no new official 'replacement' product to keep people's minds occupied. Disney's doing the same thing with the Old Republic era. Everyone knows it's no longer canon but they go out of their way not to telegraph it too much and even re-canonize lil bits and pieces of info/characters here and there. Most importantly - there's still no new official 'new canon' stuff set in the Old Republic period so people naturally lean into the old stuff that's already there.

[Hellspawn28]

Super has too many stuff that makes it impossible for it to be in the same continuity as GT. Dragon Ball has mutiple continuites that have their own timelines. The DB manga, DBS, GT, DBO, Heroes, etc.

[capsulecorp]

If you want to try to understand why so many people are so skeptical of the idea of a "Black Frieza saga", take a step back and consider how his character changes throughout DBS. The most important thing about the introduction of Black Frieza is not that that he one-shots Goku and Vegeta, it's that he finally gets them on the ropes and decides to let them live.

This could be because he's grown to respect Goku, like so many other former villains. Or, it could be that he's developed enough of a sense of honor that he would not be satisfied with such an unfair fight! Regardless, this is a very different Frieza than we saw in DBZ and makes a lot more sense as the end of his story, rather than the setup for another turn at playing the antagonist.

Of course, who knows what the future holds. We probably haven't seen the last of Frieza, but I wouldn't expect a re-run of RoF anytime soon.

[Hellspawn28]

Freeza is not going to be killed off anyways. If they do kill him off, he will just come back anyways.