Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I think it's still a similar case to the movie overall.

Super Saiyan Vegeta was still able to trade blows and damage base Broly, but he was decidedly not guaranteed to outlast that fight.

So I think of him turning Super Saiyan God as him deciding to end that fight decisively rather than bother with a prolonged affair where he might or might not lose/

[QuakingStar]

The dynamic between Broly and Vegeta shows exactly that Broly is getting stronger during their fight.

Broly started below Base Vegeta and ended equal to SS Vegeta. That goes to show that Vegeta got stronger as well during this fight. In the movie, Base Broly powered-up to a level that Vegeta needed SSG to beat. Now Vegeta can match that level with just his regular Super Saiyan form.

SSG and Ikari levels in my reading are still in a superior dimension from the levels they displayed in Chapter #101 though.

You're reading too much into it and trying to make it the same as in the movie. Vegeta was saying Broly was still not using his higher levels of power, so Broly overall got stronger from Broly Arc fight to this chapter, but he was not growing stronger than he ever was DURING the battle, just that he was slowly tapping into power that he already had. We all know Vegeta had gotten much stronger since the Broly Arc fight and that's not new. This isn't the same as when he first fought Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

I’m not even talking about Broly getting stronger than he ever was. I’m just saying that Broly is getting stronger during the course of this battle, as he can match SS Vegeta without losing his cool. This is several levels from where he was in chapter #93, when he barely matched Base Goku. Base Vegeta is supposed to be a little bit above Base Goku from back then. See now?

[Miracles]

Called it. Broly wasn't among the strongest in the universe. Goku and Vegeta are stronger and he wasn't exempt from the wish and Black Freeza will smoke him also.

Gohan is looking like the one to be the answer to Freeza right now.

[Hugo Boss]

More like Broly was exempted from the wish because he can’t bring forth his full power willingly, as it’s still inaccessible by his current self, much like Gohan’s beast power back then. So, the Dragon Balls probably didn’t consider them full-fledged warriors worth of using as measure stick. Gohan might be the one to help him with that, as they share similar difficulties with controlling power.

[Mr Baggins]

Called it.

Um, no. This chapter confirmed the exact opposite of whatever you're talking about.

Broly isn't the strongest specifically because he's essentially locked out of the power he could use in the movie. He stopped being the greatest in the universe the moment he went back to base form after being teleported to his home planet.

His Super Saiyan form was 100% exempt from Granolah's wish, just like Beast mode, fusions and anything else that wasn't freely accessible at the time.

[QuakingStar]

I’m not even talking about Broly getting stronger than he ever was. I’m just saying that Broly is getting stronger during the course of this battle, as he can match SS Vegeta without losing his cool. This is several levels from where he was in chapter #93, when he barely matched Base Goku. Base Vegeta is supposed to be a little bit above Base Goku from back then. See now?

You're still not understanding my comment. Broly from Broly Arc is definitely weaker than Broly from SH Arc. That's not being argued. Broly from the spar with Goku was still having problems controlling his power and rage, and when he fights Vegeta has has gotten better at doing so. He did not actually get stronger during these fights, he is simply tapping into power he had trouble getting to without losing himself.

[Hugo Boss]

You're still not understanding my comment. Broly from Broly Arc is definitely weaker than Broly from SH Arc. That's not being argued. Broly from the spar with Goku was still having problems controlling his power and rage, and when he fights Vegeta has has gotten better at doing so. He did not actually get stronger during these fights, he is simply tapping into power he had trouble getting to without losing himself.

I don’t see getting better at using power and getting stronger as separate things in this case. It’s perhaps you who is not understanding my point.

I mean it as a similar situation to when Granolah and Gas were having trouble handling their newfound strength. They were getting stronger the more they fought, specially Gas. It’s power they already had, but needed to adapt or awaken it. As a result, they look like stronger. It’s about it.

With Broly you take into account his natural ability of getting stronger in response to his opponent. Yes, that’s power that he is learning to control, but that doesn’t change the outcome. You can call it seicho if you want.

[Miracles]

Called it.

Um, no. This chapter confirmed the exact opposite of whatever you're talking about.

Broly isn't the strongest specifically because he's essentially locked out of the power he could use in the movie. He stopped being the greatest in the universe the moment he went back to base form after being teleported to his home planet.

His Super Saiyan form was 100% exempt from Granolah's wish, just like Beast mode, fusions and anything else that wasn't freely accessible at the time.

Pure head canon by you. Broly isn't the strongest because he is locked out of his power since if he gets angry [loses control] he can use it. His power with his current rage ISN'T strong enough. That's why he wasn't considered among the strongest in the universe and not exempt from the two star Dragon's wish in the Granolah arc.

More like Broly was exempted from the wish because he can’t bring forth his full power willingly, as it’s still inaccessible by his current self, much like Gohan’s beast power back then. So, the Dragon Balls probably didn’t consider them full-fledged warriors worth of using as measure stick. Gohan might be the one to help him with that, as they share similar difficulties with controlling power.

This is factually incorrect too. Broly's power can be accessed but he loses himself when doing it. That same Broly's power is not strong enough to be considered among the best with the likes of Granolah, Gas, Goku and Vegeta in the Granolah arc. He was not exempt from the two star Dragon's wish. Hence why Freeza will come and break all three of the Saiyan's piggy banks in pieces if he shows up.

[Mr Baggins]

Pure head canon by you.

Amigo, I'm not the one who thinks that Beerus secretly trains off-screen to grow several times stronger than we saw him previously between story arcs.

I'm presenting something that was formerly a pretty reasonable assumption that is now an unambiguous fact presented directly by the manga. It's right there, stated word for word in the text on page 31: Broly is unable to unleash his full power.

You may not like it, but that is what's conveyed. You can either accept it and move on or spend another several months trying to tip-toe your way around it until it's confirmed again for the thousandth time, which I guess will be when Broly finally does unlock his true power and everyone reacts with awe or astonishment. I'll let you grapple with this on your own.

Broly isn't the strongest because he is locked out of his power since if he gets angry [loses control] he can use it.

The reasons don't really matter; what's made clear is that Broly can't do the things that allow him to use it in the first place. Vegeta initially thinks it's because of fear, but then Broly brings out enough strength to fight on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form without losing himself. Vegeta acknowledges this achievement but says he's still incapable of using his full power, Goku suggests tapping into the same feeling they use to go Super Saiyan, then Broly says that's difficult for him to do at present.

Whether it's a similar situation to Gohan where mental blocks are preventing him from accessing this inner power is irrelevant. He can't access it either way. That's what the dialogue says. And if Gohan is exempt from the wish for those reasons, so is Broly by default. If not for those reasons, so is Broly anyway because he admits he can't do any of this at will regardless.

[Miracles]

Pure head canon by you.

Amigo, I'm not the one who thinks that Beerus secretly trains off-screen to grow several times stronger than we saw him previously between story arcs.

I'm presenting something that was formerly a pretty reasonable assumption that is now an unambiguous fact presented directly by the manga. It's right there, stated word for word in the text: Broly is unable to unleash his full power.

You may not like it, but that is what's conveyed. You can either accept it and move on or spend another several months trying to tip-toe your way around it until it's confirmed again for the thousandth time, which I guess will be when Broly finally does unlock his true power and everyone reacts with awe or astonishment. I'll let you grapple with this on your own.

Broly isn't the strongest because he is locked out of his power since if he gets angry [loses control] he can use it.

The reasons don't really matter; what's made clear is that Broly can't do the things that allow him to use it in the first place. Vegeta initially thinks it's because of fear, but then Broly brings out enough strength to fight on par with Super Saiyan Vegeta in his base form without losing himself. Vegeta acknowledges this achievement but says he's still incapable of using his full power, Goku suggests tapping into the same feeling they use to go Super Saiyan, then Broly says that's difficult for him to do at present.

Whether it's a similar situation to Gohan where mental blocks are preventing him from accessing this inner power is irrelevant. He can't access it either way. That's what the dialogue says. And if Gohan is exempt from the wish for those reasons, so is Broly by default. If not for those reasons, so is Broly anyway because he admits he can't do any of this at will regardless.

Again more headcanon by you. Nothing you said changes the facts of the story. You are presenting assumptions.

[Mr Baggins]

Ahh, there's nothing quite like a classic "No U!" non-argument to crack me up in the morning while I enjoy my daily cup o' joe. Nice. I rest my case.

Anyway, moving on: I think I'll revise my previous estimations and swap Freeza and Broly now that we know Broly is likely only in danger because he can't really tap into his power yet. The story is clearly foreshadowing him to be the next ace in the hole, although it can always subvert expectations, so at full strength he might well surpass Freeza. This also neatly aligns with some of V Jump's and Toriyama's prior comments about Broly's FP level surpassing Beerus.

But we'll see. There's a few valid contenders for the #1 spot here.

[QuakingStar]

It was never stated Broly could not access his FP, only implied that it's tricky and he cannot control himself if he uses it. On the other hand Gohan did not awaken Beast period until Cell Max so I definitely do not see how Broly's SS and SSFP form would be not included in the wish when it was literally seen and used BEFORE Granolah made his wish. Whis also literally said that nobody in the Universe were as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he already knew Broly was capable of SSFP, and in Freeza's case Frieza was not in the Universe for Whis to be able to know about Black Frieza. The only thing new with Broly is that he is getting better at not losing himself when accessing his power.

[Miracles]

It was never stated Broly could not access his FP, only implied that it's tricky and he cannot control himself if he uses it. On the other hand Gohan did not awaken Beast period until Cell Max so I definitely do not see how Broly's SS and SSFP form would be not included in the wish when it was literally seen and used BEFORE Granolah made his wish. Whis also literally said that nobody in the Universe were as strong as Goku and Vegeta and he already knew Broly was capable of SSFP, and in Freeza's case Frieza was not in the Universe for Whis to be able to know about Black Frieza. The only thing new with Broly is that he is getting better at not losing himself when accessing his power.

Now this is in line with canon. Only to add that it is tricky for Broly to go Super Saiyan trying to control himself and using his full might in that mindset. However he can go SS but he will lose it.

[Koitsukai]

About Freeza, I was rewatching the Broly movie and I think there's basis to believe he was already extremely stronger than before, not just a bit like it was initially thought. He witnesses SS Broly trashing the fuck out of Goku and Vegeta together, yet when he ends up with the bill he decides to turn Golden and teach Broly some manners.
Of course, he failed horribly, but he didn't run, he didn't try to hide or escape in any way... he actually thought he could do better than two SSBs. Perhaps, confident in his fighting skills being enough to close the gap with the unskilled Broly. This, on top of going to Earth to pick a fight with UI Goku with two hobos he picked up on the way.

While a gag scene at heart, at first, I believed it was Freeza's durability and Broly not being as strong as say pre-FP Jiren in the ToP that easily devalued Freeza's gold, but now I think, with the support of the Granola arc where Freeza proved he has been doing stuff off-screen, Freeza was already on that SS Gogeta, SS Broly, Somewhat-Suppressed Jiren level... on the weakest end.
He not only survived and remained transformed, he was actively enganging in combat. Sure, there was nowhere to run but we've seen him TWICE blowing up the planet he was standing on when he got beaten up.

Something like
SS Gogeta 9,5 (expert)
SS Broly 9,5 (amateur)
Not-FP Jiren 9 (expert)
Golden Freeza 8 (advanced)
--
--
Movie SSB teamwork 5
ToP SSB/Freeza 4

[Mr Baggins]

It was never stated Broly could not access his FP

Huh? It was explicitly stated!

Think about this critically. Vegeta doesn't say "but you're unable to unleash your true might without losing control" because that makes no sense after what had just transpired. Broly was already proving himself in that respect, so Vegeta wouldn't know that. What he actually says in this chapter is "but you're unable to unleash your true might" period, in no uncertain terms. That's it. That's the end of the sentence. It's as direct a statement as one can ask for.

Then, in the following page, Broly again affirms it's too hard/difficult to use the principles of Super Saiyan to power up ("…むずかしいな"). You keep saying "tricky" as if that's the proper translation, but Viz's translations are often loose with flavor text and sometimes either misleading or downright inaccurate. He doesn't describe it as "tricky", and probably doesn't even remember how to trigger the form. The whole context is that Broly has two different hurdles to overcome and he's only improving in one of them so far.

Y'all are killing me. What's the reaction going to be when Broly does finally unleash his full power while this is inevitably made out to be a big deal?

[Thani]

About Freeza, I was rewatching the Broly movie and I think there's basis to believe he was already extremely stronger than before, not just a bit like it was initially thought. He witnesses SS Broly trashing the fuck out of Goku and Vegeta together, yet when he ends up with the bill he decides to turn Golden and teach Broly some manners.
Of course, he failed horribly, but he didn't run, he didn't try to hide or escape in any way... he actually thought he could do better than two SSBs. Perhaps, confident in his fighting skills being enough to close the gap with the unskilled Broly. This, on top of going to Earth to pick a fight with UI Goku with two hobos he picked up on the way.

While a gag scene at heart, at first, I believed it was Freeza's durability and Broly not being as strong as say pre-FP Jiren in the ToP that easily devalued Freeza's gold, but now I think, with the support of the Granola arc where Freeza proved he has been doing stuff off-screen, Freeza was already on that SS Gogeta, SS Broly, Somewhat-Suppressed Jiren level... on the weakest end.
He not only survived and remained transformed, he was actively enganging in combat. Sure, there was nowhere to run but we've seen him TWICE blowing up the planet he was standing on when he got beaten up.

Something like
SS Gogeta 9,5 (expert)
SS Broly 9,5 (amateur)
Not-FP Jiren 9 (expert)
Golden Freeza 8 (advanced)
--
--
Movie SSB teamwork 5
ToP SSB/Freeza 4

A counterpoint: Freeza is arrogant as fuck, of course he would hype himself to believe he could put Broly "in his place". Just like he tried to do with SS Goku back in Namek.

[QuakingStar]

It was never stated Broly could not access his FP

Huh? It was explicitly stated!

Think about this critically. Vegeta doesn't say "but you're unable to unleash your true might without losing control" because that makes no sense after what had just transpired. Broly was already proving himself in that respect, so Vegeta wouldn't know that. What he actually says in this chapter is "but you're unable to unleash your true might" period, in no uncertain terms. That's it. That's the end of the sentence. It's as direct a statement as one can ask for.

Then, in the following page, Broly again affirms it's too hard/difficult to use the principles of Super Saiyan to power up ("…むずかしいな"). You keep saying "tricky" as if that's the proper translation, but Viz's translations are often loose with flavor text and sometimes either misleading or downright inaccurate. He doesn't describe it as "tricky", and probably doesn't even remember how to trigger the form. The whole context is that Broly has two different hurdles to overcome and he's only improving in one of them so far.

Y'all are killing me. What's the reaction going to be when Broly does finally unleash his full power while this is inevitably made out to be a big deal?

You are clearly missing the part where the whole POINT is for Broly to be able to tap into his power WITHOUT GOING BERSERK. He CAN use the power, but he WILL go berserk. They are training him to be able to do so WITHOUT GOING BERSERK. Ya'll are acting like he CAN'T use his power at all. "ya'll are killing me" no you are killing yourself with your own headcanon, and Broly having gotten stronger in the three years of course they will make a big deal out of him finally controlling and using his SSFP.

[Mr Baggins]

Noseph, broseph. The actual point of the training is Broly learning to harness his power. That's the whole extent of it. That includes not going berserk, and that also includes using a form he clearly doesn't know or remember how to use since that is what the text makes excruciatingly clear. He isn't using it during training because he physically can't, otherwise he would at least attempt to do so now that he's better at controlling himself. Vegeta wanted him to, but he couldn't.

That was the point being made by the dialogue this month. Again, think critically about this. Follow the conversation between the characters, my man.

Broly having gotten stronger in the three years

Nah, that's bad handwaving. You can't, as you like to put it, "headcanon" your way around this when Vegeta is using the power of Broly's FP state from the movie as his benchmark. That is his point of reference. It's the last time he fought him at full strength.

So again, what's your answer to the likes of the original Broly movie, V Jump, Victory Uchida, Akira Toriyama himself, Super Hero and its supplementals, and the manga itself making his full power out to be a big deal (i.e. comparable to Beerus)? You can't just pick and choose whatever fits your narrative when it's convenient, or just make shit up like "ummm he must have grown drastically stronger off-screen".

Answer the question. Better yet, ask yourselves if you're really engaging with the material in earnest if your position refuses to budge after so many confirmations from literally every single writer and editor currently involved in the series now.

Good grief.

[QuakingStar]

Noseph, broseph. The actual point of the training is Broly learning to harness his power. That's the whole extent of it. That includes not going berserk, and that also includes using a form he clearly doesn't know or remember how to use since that is what the text makes excruciatingly clear. He isn't using it during training because he physically can't, otherwise he would at least attempt to do so now that he's better at controlling himself. Vegeta wanted him to, but he couldn't.

That was the point being made by the dialogue this month. Again, think critically about this. Follow the conversation between the characters, my man.

Broly having gotten stronger in the three years

Nah, that's bad handwaving. You can't, as you like to put it, "headcanon" your way around this when Vegeta is using the power of Broly's FP state from the movie as his benchmark. That is his point of reference. It's the last time he fought him at full strength.

So again, what's your answer to the likes of the original Broly movie, V Jump, Victory Uchida, Akira Toriyama himself, Super Hero and its supplementals, and the manga itself making his full power out to be a big deal (i.e. comparable to Beerus)? You can't just pick and choose whatever fits your narrative when it's convenient, or just make shit up like "ummm he must have grown drastically stronger off-screen".

Answer the question. Better yet, ask yourselves if you're really engaging with the material in earnest if your position refuses to budge after so many confirmations from literally every single writer and editor currently involved in the series now.

Good grief.

Your headcanon is just that, your headcanon, silly boy. Broly can use that power but he loses control in doing so. The whole point of them training him is to use his power WITHOUT going berserk. You can say whatever you want to say but it doesn't change that fact bud.