Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Jack Bz]

Re-reading the chapter and Vegeta states explicitly that Broly can't access his full power because he's scared of snapping.

Vegeta also says "to battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might" seems pretty explicit that Broly can't access all of his power.

I'm not exactly sure what the debate is here?

[QuakingStar]

Re-reading the chapter and Vegeta states explicitly that Broly can't access his full power because he's scared of snapping.

Vegeta also says "to battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might" seems pretty explicit that Broly can't access all of his power.

I'm not exactly sure what the debate is here?

"Without snapping" Broly needs to get angry and snap to reach his higher levels of power. He can't do that while level headed. The goal of the training is to help Broly learn to control his anger and access his higher levels of power without snapping. How is this hard to grasp??

and regardless of him going berserk or not after the Broly Arc the wish made by Granolah wouldn't disclude a level of power just because one has to go berserk to use it. In this case it's not as if it's something Broly never did or never used, that power is there and he HAS used it before.

[Miracles]

Exactly. People just don't want to believe Broly ain't relevant right now [As the Granolah arc deemed it]. That's why if Freeza shows up he is gonna make Goku, Vegeta and Broly change careers setting his dinner tables with Macki and Oil.

[Hugo Boss]

Re-reading the chapter and Vegeta states explicitly that Broly can't access his full power because he's scared of snapping.

Vegeta also says "to battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might" seems pretty explicit that Broly can't access all of his power.

I'm not exactly sure what the debate is here?

Silly me thought this would be pretty easy to understand. I guess we will have to wait until everything is said and done again.

Anyway, moving on: I think I'll revise my previous estimations and swap Freeza and Broly now that we know Broly is likely only in danger because he can't really tap into his power yet. The story is clearly foreshadowing him to be the next ace in the hole, although it can always subvert expectations, so at full strength he might well surpass Freeza. This also neatly aligns with some of V Jump's and Toriyama's prior comments about Broly's FP level surpassing Beerus.

But we'll see. There's a few valid contenders for the #1 spot here.

This is exactly where I was in disagreement with you. Now we are on the same page again, lol.

[Mr Baggins]

Silly me thought this would be pretty easy to understand. I guess we will have to wait until everything is said and done again.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother. If we're now at the point where a couple of bad faith actors are calling a direct, explicit statement headcanon and drafting "No U" type replies in lieu of responding to the points they're quoting, there's not much more to be said.

All this means is that the case has already been made effectively.

This is exactly where I was in disagreement with you. Now we are on the same page again, lol.

Mind you, I still think there's enough ambiguity right now with the top three specifically that it's subject to change. It's kinda neat that none of us are completely sure who #1 is, but yeah – Broly would be my bet at the moment, just given what the narrative is doing.

[QuakingStar]

Exactly. People just don't want to believe Broly ain't relevant right now [As the Granolah arc deemed it]. That's why if Freeza shows up he is gonna make Goku, Vegeta and Broly change careers setting his dinner tables with Macki and Oil.

Yup and that sassy child raging with his headcanon doesn't change what the manga chapter literally told us either. I mean the words were literally in the chapter

[shadd21]

Toriyama used Broly as a measuring stick in regards to a Completed!Cell Max...Yeah, safe for Broly is still one strongest, Like the Super Hero arc has shown that Toyotaro would readily contradict the writing of his own story arcs to just fit the narrative of Toryama's, hence why we got retcons like Gohan slacking from his training post-Moro, Using SSJ, and most relevantly, Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus getting nervous at Broly despite the latter supposedly not being consider "contender for the strongest in the universe" in the Granola arc.

[QuakingStar]

Toriyama used Broly as a measuring stick in regards to a Completed!Cell Max...Yeah, safe for Broly is still one strongest, Like the Super Hero arc has shown that Toyotaro would readily contradict the writing of his own story arcs to just fit the narrative of Toryama's, hence why we got retcons like Gohan slacking from his training post-Moro, Using SSJ, and most relevantly, Goku, Vegeta, and Beerus getting nervous at Broly despite the latter supposedly not being consider "contender for the strongest in the universe" in the Granola arc.

I would be more accepting of it being a retcon if that does turn out to be the case since Toyotaro himself never said Broly was one of the strongest and in fact ignored Uchiha and kept saying it was Goku, Vegeta and Granolah so if Broly became the strongest again that would indeed be a retcon if Broly wasn't training for 3 years. Retcons are something Dragon Ball continues to do.

[shadd21]

Toyotaro himself never said Broly was one of the strongest and in fact ignored Uchiha and kept saying it was Goku, Vegeta and Granolah.

Keep in mind this before the SH, it's best look at this interview as well as every other(or lack there of) power statement in the prior arcs in regards to Broly as Toyotaro simply overstepping what Toriyama had planned, then having to walk them back when it came time to adapt Toriyama's script for the SH arc.

[QuakingStar]

Toyotaro himself never said Broly was one of the strongest and in fact ignored Uchiha and kept saying it was Goku, Vegeta and Granolah.

Keep in mind this before the SH, it's best look at this interview as well as every other(or lack there of) power statement in the prior arcs in regards to Broly as Toyotaro simply overstepping what Toriyama had planned, then having to walk them back when it came time to adapt Toriyama's script for the SH arc.

Toriyama didn't say Broly was the strongest either. The only statement we get of anybody being the strongest is Gohan. The next few chapters will hopefully shed light on what they have changed though.

[Miracles]

Re-reading the chapter and Vegeta states explicitly that Broly can't access his full power because he's scared of snapping.

Vegeta also says "to battle without losing yourself is an achievement, but you seem unable to unleash your true might" seems pretty explicit that Broly can't access all of his power.

I'm not exactly sure what the debate is here?

That Broly had access to his true power when he loses himself. We've seen it in DBS: Broly and we've read about it in CH. 93 where Broly was going nuts and his eyes were turning white going Super Saiyan/Legendary Green-haired mode. Chapter 101 is trying to solve the "issue" by getting Broly to turn SS/Green haired in a controlled state of rage. Now that Broly has made a "bit" of progress controlling himself it "seems" like he can't access his full might. Not that he can't when losing himself.

People were saying Broly's power From; DBS: Broly through the Galactic Patrol arc and Granolah the survivor arc was still strongest despite these arcs moving on from him. With Moro being stated to be the toughest opponent Goku has ever had during the Galactic patrol arc and the two star Dragon's strongest wishes making Broly weaker than Granolah and Gas. Even before that Whis didn't even consider if Broly was stronger than Goku and Vegeta at the start of that arc when asked if anyone was stronger than both.

It's just that people were trying to claim Broly was the man all this time now they are trying to pretend that Broly has been the man since he can't access his power NOW [Which was never stated] which is why he was exempt all these past arcs, lololol.

Exactly. People just don't want to believe Broly ain't relevant right now [As the Granolah arc deemed it]. That's why if Freeza shows up he is gonna make Goku, Vegeta and Broly change careers setting his dinner tables with Macki and Oil.

Yup and that sassy child raging with his headcanon doesn't change what the manga chapter literally told us either. I mean the words were literally in the chapter

It seems people just can't accept the fact that Broly was never the man since his movie debut. Too bad.

[shadd21]

Toriyama didn't say Broly was the strongest either. The only statement we get of anybody being the strongest is Gohan. The next few chapters will hopefully shed light on what they have changed though.

Out of Goku, Vegeta, especially Beast Gohan, He specifically singled out Broly as comparison to a Competed!Cell Max, That should tell you where Toriyama views Broly on the power scale

It seems people just can't accept the fact that Broly was never the man since his movie debut. Too bad.

Then along came Super Hero and it's manga adaptation, Now he's the man again

[Miracles]

It seems people just can't accept the fact that Broly was never the man since his movie debut. Too bad.

Then along came Super Hero and it's manga adaptation, Now he's the man again

Only if you magically handwave the two arcs in the manga since the Broly movie.

[shadd21]

It seems people just can't accept the fact that Broly was never the man since his movie debut. Too bad.

Then along came Super Hero and it's manga adaptation, Now he's the man again

Only if you magically handwave the two arcs in the manga since the Broly movie.

Which Toyotaro did when he adapted Super Hero as a manga arc

[Mr Baggins]

Which Toyotaro did when he adapted Super Hero as a manga arc

Correct, although I'd say he postdicts it well enough to present a logical in-universe explanation behind why Broly was discounted in the Granolah arc. Toyotaro just made his full power from the 2018 movie inaccessible.

Even in that movie, it's established that Broly going Super Saiyan requires a different trigger than just going berserk. He was already berserk; what he needed was a trauma-induced response. So when Goku suggests that Broly should try to recall that feeling in this chapter, he responds with "muzukashī na" – essentially saying it's too hard, at least for the time being.

My non-committal prediction going forward is that it might take a new traumatic experience of some kind to bring out that power again. After that, he'll grapple with controlling it and then he'll have access to Super Saiyan at will, making him the ace in the hole that virtually all official materials have been saying he is.

[Miracles]

Then along came Super Hero and it's manga adaptation, Now he's the man again

Only if you magically handwave the two arcs in the manga since the Broly movie.

Which Toyotaro did when he adapted Super Hero as a manga arc

False. Black Freeza is a transformation from the Granolah arc.

[shadd21]

False. Black Freeza is a transformation from the Granolah arc.

Ok lemme stop you right there, I see you trying to reframe your original argument from "Broly isn't one of the strongest" to "Broly isn't the strongest" No one here ever claimed the latter (Broly got wreaked by Gogeta in his debut film for kami sake)

Meanwhile for the former argument, As i've said before, Super Hero(both the movie and manga) pretty much debunks this as it still views Broly on the higher end of non-angel combatants in the series.

[Miracles]

False. Black Freeza is a transformation from the Granolah arc.

Ok lemme stop you right there, I see you trying to reframe your original argument from "Broly isn't one of the strongest" to "Broly isn't the strongest" No one here ever claimed the latter (Broly got wreaked by Gogeta in his debut film for kami sake)

Meanwhile for the former argument, As i've said before, Super Hero(both the movie and manga) pretty much debunks this as it still views Broly on the higher end of non-angel combatants in the series.

I'm not trying to re frame anything, it's BOTH. Broly isn't one of the strongest nor was he/is the strongest, hence why people thought he was exempt from the wish of the two star dragon in the Granolah arc.

You claimed Toyotaro hand wave the last two arcs when adapting Super Hero, l told you Black Freeza from the Granolah arc is a thing in Super Hero and then so is everything else that happened in that previous arc. Where Broly was not even considered to be among the strongest or one of the strongest.

[shadd21]

False. Black Freeza is a transformation from the Granolah arc.

Ok lemme stop you right there, I see you trying to reframe your original argument from "Broly isn't one of the strongest" to "Broly isn't the strongest" No one here ever claimed the latter (Broly got wreaked by Gogeta in his debut film for kami sake)

Meanwhile for the former argument, As i've said before, Super Hero(both the movie and manga) pretty much debunks this as it still views Broly on the higher end of non-angel combatants in the series.

I'm not trying to re frame anything, it's BOTH. Broly isn't one of the strongest nor was he/is the strongest, hence why people thought he was exempt from the wish of the two star dragon in the Granolah arc.

You claimed Toyotaro hand wave the last two arcs when adapting Super Hero, l told you Black Freeza from the Granolah arc is a thing in Super Hero and then so is everything else that happened in that previous arc. Where Broly was not even considered to be among the strongest or one of the strongest.

Vs Super Hero, y'know, the arc that succeeds the Granolah arc, where he's still considered one of the strongest.

[QuakingStar]

Ok lemme stop you right there, I see you trying to reframe your original argument from "Broly isn't one of the strongest" to "Broly isn't the strongest" No one here ever claimed the latter (Broly got wreaked by Gogeta in his debut film for kami sake)

Meanwhile for the former argument, As i've said before, Super Hero(both the movie and manga) pretty much debunks this as it still views Broly on the higher end of non-angel combatants in the series.

I'm not trying to re frame anything, it's BOTH. Broly isn't one of the strongest nor was he/is the strongest, hence why people thought he was exempt from the wish of the two star dragon in the Granolah arc.

You claimed Toyotaro hand wave the last two arcs when adapting Super Hero, l told you Black Freeza from the Granolah arc is a thing in Super Hero and then so is everything else that happened in that previous arc. Where Broly was not even considered to be among the strongest or one of the strongest.

Vs Super Hero, y'know, the arc that succeeds the Granolah arc, where he's still considered one of the strongest.

"One of" was never something that was argued because he IS one of the strongest, he just wasn't THE strongest. The coming chapters will shed light on if Toyo changed it or not but the way it seems now they are meaning they will need Broly to help them in their fight against Frieza and them unintentionally sensing Gohans Ki all the way from Earth is to show just how strong Gohan is which is why it shocked Gohan and Vegeta. Broly will most definitely be up there in power with all the big boys that isn't a debate on that.