Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[shadd21]

Again, you post something that proves my exact point. Thanks.

Your point being your just going to ignore everything ranging the manga's narrative, the supplementary manga material, and even fucking world of ToyotarToriyama himself, All to push your baseless "Broly isn't one of the strongest" claim? Ok

Like those 2 things you constantly cite as proof to your argument, in actuality doesn't really discount Broly at all

Toyotaro in that interview never suggested that Broly wasn't one of the strongest , like he never shot-down or corrected Victory Uchiha when he brought up Broly,

And Broly not being name dropped at the beginning of the Granolah arc, is something that could be handwaved away as Broly not having access to his full power, Which given the narrative regarding Broly in the Super Hero arc, as well the supplementary material for the Granolah arc, Seems to be the case

Edit: I just stumbled upon this tidbit from Toyotaro..

https://x.com/SupaChronicles/status/142 ... 92705?s=20




Explain to me how Broly can be stronger than post-Granolah Goku, yet still not be consider one of the strongest

[Miracles]

Again, you post something that proves my exact point. Thanks.

Your point being your just going to ignore everything ranging the manga's narrative, the supplementary manga material, and even fucking world of ToyotarToriyama himself, All to push your baseless "Broly isn't one of the strongest" claim? Ok

Like those 2 things you constantly cite as proof to your argument, in actuality doesn't really discount Broly at all

Toyotaro in that interview never suggested that Broly wasn't one of the strongest , like he never shot-down or corrected Victory Uchiha when he brought up Broly,

And Broly not being name dropped at the beginning of the Granolah arc, is something that could be handwaved away as Broly not having access to his full power, Which given the narrative regarding Broly in the Super Hero arc, as well the supplementary material for the Granolah arc, Seems to be the case

Edit: I just stumbled upon this tidbit from Toyotaro..

https://x.com/SupaChronicles/status/142 ... 92705?s=20




Explain to me how Broly can be stronger than post-Granolah Goku, yet still not be consider one of the strongest

The bold rests my case.

[shadd21]

Again, you post something that proves my exact point. Thanks.

Your point being your just going to ignore everything ranging the manga's narrative, the supplementary manga material, and even fucking world of ToyotarToriyama himself, All to push your baseless "Broly isn't one of the strongest" claim? Ok

Like those 2 things you constantly cite as proof to your argument, in actuality doesn't really discount Broly at all

Toyotaro in that interview never suggested that Broly wasn't one of the strongest , like he never shot-down or corrected Victory Uchiha when he brought up Broly,

And Broly not being name dropped at the beginning of the Granolah arc, is something that could be handwaved away as Broly not having access to his full power, Which given the narrative regarding Broly in the Super Hero arc, as well the supplementary material for the Granolah arc, Seems to be the case

Edit: I just stumbled upon this tidbit from Toyotaro..

https://x.com/SupaChronicles/status/142 ... 92705?s=20




Explain to me how Broly can be stronger than post-Granolah Goku, yet still not be consider one of the strongest

The bold rests my case.

Apparently you must've have only read the bold and not the text after, it's not a "headcanon" when the story is backing it up.

[Miracles]

Your point being your just going to ignore everything ranging the manga's narrative, the supplementary manga material, and even fucking world of ToyotarToriyama himself, All to push your baseless "Broly isn't one of the strongest" claim? Ok

Like those 2 things you constantly cite as proof to your argument, in actuality doesn't really discount Broly at all

Toyotaro in that interview never suggested that Broly wasn't one of the strongest , like he never shot-down or corrected Victory Uchiha when he brought up Broly,

And Broly not being name dropped at the beginning of the Granolah arc, is something that could be handwaved away as Broly not having access to his full power, Which given the narrative regarding Broly in the Super Hero arc, as well the supplementary material for the Granolah arc, Seems to be the case

Edit: I just stumbled upon this tidbit from Toyotaro..

https://x.com/SupaChronicles/status/142 ... 92705?s=20




Explain to me how Broly can be stronger than post-Granolah Goku, yet still not be consider one of the strongest

The bold rests my case.

Apparently you must've have only read the bold and not the text after, it's not a "headcanon" when the story is backing it up.

Makes no difference. Everything else you posted is headcanon too, since Toyotaro didn't even say what your source falsely claims.

[Hugo Boss]

The Broly panel being included alongside Grand Priest confused the living hell out of people, including @SupaChronicles.

It was Uchida who name dropped Broly and Toyotaro ignores all those names in his rankings, citing Goku, Vegeta and Granolah as the 3 strongest in the universe.

Uchida likely antecipated something that was on planning stage, and Toyotaro smoothly took the conversation to another direction.

[SupremeKai25]

I feel like too many people put too much stock in what someone says (AT, Toyo, etc)

The show, or the manga, is the main source. If you can't convey you're point via words, dialoge, or feats, then thats on you.

Fully agreed. The only person who thinks Broly remains relevant is Uchida, but he is just the editor, who claimed that in an interview. His word is not the Story. Interviews are not the Story. The Story is what is on the Page, period. Nothing more, nothing less.

On the Page, Broly is surpassed strength-wise.

[Mr Baggins]

The Broly panel being included alongside Grand Priest confused the living hell out of people, including @SupaChronicles.

The dragon-ball-official.com interviews are always pre-planned and intended for consumption. If a giant image of Broly flashing across the screen as his name is mentioned doesn't immediately tell people that Broly being at/near the top was always in the cards, I don't know what else to say. They're not going to include something like this in a publicized interview if they don't want the audience to know.

Moreover, it's not like that's even close to being the only confirmation. This shit is everywhere. It's published in magazines, it's talked about by the people involved in creating Super's storylines, it was a literal talking point at the end of Broly's introductory movie, and now it's being touched on in the manga. There isn't a rational justification in the world at this point to exclude all this just based on a couple of lines written at a time that Broly wasn't formally introduced to the series.

But honestly, I see all this as a consequence of Broly's movie being skipped by the manga, rather than some indication that Toyotaro didn't get the memo until later. It would've been awkward to just casually mention him in arcs where the readership potentially wasn't familiar with this iteration of the character.

[shadd21]

Makes no difference. Everything else you posted is headcanon too, since Toyotaro didn't even say what your source falsely claims.

Nah, Headcanon would be continuing to push this "Broly isn't one of the strongest" malarkey despite all official statements saying otherwise

[Koitsukai]

I feel like too many people put too much stock in what someone says (AT, Toyo, etc)

The show, or the manga, is the main source. If you can't convey you're point via words, dialoge, or feats, then thats on you.


If Toriyama said that Krillin is literally the strongest, i dont care, I dont buy it. If they write him to be the strongest, and he demonstrates it. That's what matters. So until Goku, Vegeta, Broly, etc, surpass Beerus, than they just aren't (Jiren included).

Fully on board with this.
An example could be Krilin and Tenshinhan, Akira claimed Krilin is the strongest human, but that was never conveyed at all in the original material. How can I buy he ranks above Tenshinhan when he doesn't do shit since Namek and Tenshinhan actually managed to stop 2nd Cell for a while and didn't retire like K?
The clear implications on your work are contradicted by your interviews.

Same for the 2014 interview where Goku "realized" mastering base and SS1 raises his level while sapping less strength, not needing 2 or 3 anymore. I guess that realization never left the interview room because he's been using those forms left and right for 10 years straight. Some interviews seem to be talking about a different show.

However, Broly being the star of the highest-grossing movie ever, currently having more narrative relevance than the earthlings or the lower blond forms, and with Toyo and Tori now totally aligned, makes me believe there's a clear goal behind their comments, but it won't become true until this happens on paper.
I'll just gloss over whatever they say until I see it on the show, which seems to be a matter of time.

[The Monkey King]

Same for the 2014 interview where Goku "realized" mastering base and SS1 raises his level while sapping less strength, not needing 2 or 3 anymore. I guess that realization never left the interview room because he's been using those forms left and right for 10 years straight. Some interviews seem to be talking about a different show.

To be fair, as far as the movies go the last time Goku uses SSJ2 and 3 are when he's showing off the forms against Beerus.

In DBS Broly, Goku and Vegeta's power ups are portrayed as: SSJ1 ---> SSJG ---> SSJB

[Koitsukai]

Same for the 2014 interview where Goku "realized" mastering base and SS1 raises his level while sapping less strength, not needing 2 or 3 anymore. I guess that realization never left the interview room because he's been using those forms left and right for 10 years straight. Some interviews seem to be talking about a different show.

To be fair, as far as the movies go the last time Goku uses SSJ2 and 3 are when he's showing off the forms against Beerus.

In DBS Broly, Goku and Vegeta's power ups are portrayed as: SSJ1 ---> SSJG ---> SSJB

Yeah, that could work for the movies, although, conveniently, the movies imply the blond forms would be useless, but the manga, which Akira supervises, has Goku using them like they are brand new in almost every arc.
I'd rather discard an interview than pretend we have two different Gokus, especially now that those alternative roads are merging together.

[ZombieVito]

I feel like too many people put too much stock in what someone says (AT, Toyo, etc)

The show, or the manga, is the main source. If you can't convey you're point via words, dialoge, or feats, then thats on you.


If Toriyama said that Krillin is literally the strongest, i dont care, I dont buy it. If they write him to be the strongest, and he demonstrates it. That's what matters. So until Goku, Vegeta, Broly, etc, surpass Beerus, than they just aren't (Jiren included).

Fully on board with this.
An example could be Krilin and Tenshinhan, Akira claimed Krilin is the strongest human, but that was never conveyed at all in the original material. How can I buy he ranks above Tenshinhan when he doesn't do shit since Namek and Tenshinhan actually managed to stop 2nd Cell for a while and didn't retire like K?
The clear implications on your work are contradicted by your interviews.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P3.2-3
Context: as Kuririn goes up against Punter
Marron: “That person dad’s fighting is big and looks strong…I wonder if he’ll be alright?...”
Yamcha: “It’s fine, fine! Someone like that doesn’t matter at all! Your father is the strongest in the world! Among Earthlings…”

We also have this:

[Koitsukai]

I feel like too many people put too much stock in what someone says (AT, Toyo, etc)

The show, or the manga, is the main source. If you can't convey you're point via words, dialoge, or feats, then thats on you.


If Toriyama said that Krillin is literally the strongest, i dont care, I dont buy it. If they write him to be the strongest, and he demonstrates it. That's what matters. So until Goku, Vegeta, Broly, etc, surpass Beerus, than they just aren't (Jiren included).

Fully on board with this.
An example could be Krilin and Tenshinhan, Akira claimed Krilin is the strongest human, but that was never conveyed at all in the original material. How can I buy he ranks above Tenshinhan when he doesn't do shit since Namek and Tenshinhan actually managed to stop 2nd Cell for a while and didn't retire like K?
The clear implications on your work are contradicted by your interviews.

Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P3.2-3
Context: as Kuririn goes up against Punter
Marron: “That person dad’s fighting is big and looks strong…I wonder if he’ll be alright?...”
Yamcha: “It’s fine, fine! Someone like that doesn’t matter at all! Your father is the strongest in the world! Among Earthlings…”

We also have this:

Basically, my point: failure to properly convey things. That's just a guy reassuring his retired friend's daughter, not everything is a power statement, I'd actually give more credence to the interview than to a friend being nice to a scared child.
In any case, there's nothing to support those claims, all previous showings implied otherwise. Not that K isn't stronger, but it's so badly portrayed that it just doesn't make sense.

DBS doesn't count, the quote is from 2004, that scene is 2017, so it stands to reason they would've accomodated a post-truth.

[Miracles]

The Broly panel being included alongside Grand Priest confused the living hell out of people, including @SupaChronicles.

It was Uchida who name dropped Broly and Toyotaro ignores all those names in his rankings, citing Goku, Vegeta and Granolah as the 3 strongest in the universe.

Uchida likely antecipated something that was on planning stage, and Toyotaro smoothly took the conversation to another direction.

Thank you!

[ZombieVito]

Basically, my point: failure to properly convey things. That's just a guy reassuring his retired friend's daughter, not everything is a power statement, I'd actually give more credence to the interview than to a friend being nice to a scared child.
In any case, there's nothing to support those claims, all previous showings implied otherwise. Not that K isn't stronger, but it's so badly portrayed that it just doesn't make sense.

DBS doesn't count, the quote is from 2004, that scene is 2017, so it stands to reason they would've accomodated a post-truth.

Yamacha's "among Earthlings" is him talking to himself not Marron.

The only time Tenshinhan showed anything post Namek that was greater than Krillin was his Shin Kikoho and that's just a technique that punches way above your weight. It didn't even damaged Cell.

[Almighty Majin]

Yamacha's "among Earthlings" is him talking to himself not Marron.

The only time Tenshinhan showed anything post Namek that was greater than Krillin was his Shin Kikoho and that's just a technique that punches way above your weight. It didn't even damaged Cell.

Even then, Krillin has the Kienzan which also allows him punch massively above his weight. He was the first character to do any significant damage to Freeza on-panel/screen and he even managed to briefly stun Cell Max in the Super Hero movie when he hit him in the face with it.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Broly just regained his crown with the minimal training he's done. What's the big deal? He went from from base level to Blue fusion in one fight, why can't he get a couple times stronger with actual training?

In hindsight, Toyotaro probably "ignored" Uchida because he just slipped a spoiler from the movie. Moro and Granolah may have been the strongest before, but that was years ago now. The present belongs to Broly.

[Thani]

Broly just regained his crown with the minimal training he's done. What's the big deal? He went from from base level to Blue fusion in one fight, why can't he get a couple times stronger with actual training?

In hindsight, Toyotaro probably "ignored" Uchida because he just slipped a spoiler from the movie. Moro and Granolah may have been the strongest before, but that was years ago now. The present belongs to Broly.

I mean, he did train before. Paragus made sure that Broly was combat ready to fulfill their revenge, after all. What Broly lacked was actual combat experience.

It's unknown right now how much his strength increased, if at all, since the bulk of his training is not to increase power, but to actually access it without losing control. As it stands, Broly's base state still seems to be in the "strong enough to fight a super saiyan evenly" from the movie, with a stronger Vegeta having a much better time facing him.

[Magnificent Ponta]

Same for the 2014 interview where Goku "realized" mastering base and SS1 raises his level while sapping less strength, not needing 2 or 3 anymore. I guess that realization never left the interview room because he's been using those forms left and right for 10 years straight. Some interviews seem to be talking about a different show.

To be fair, as far as the movies go the last time Goku uses SSJ2 and 3 are when he's showing off the forms against Beerus.

In DBS Broly, Goku and Vegeta's power ups are portrayed as: SSJ1 ---> SSJG ---> SSJB

Yeah, that could work for the movies, although, conveniently, the movies imply the blond forms would be useless, but the manga, which Akira supervises, has Goku using them like they are brand new in almost every arc.
I'd rather discard an interview than pretend we have two different Gokus, especially now that those alternative roads are merging together.

To be fair, the manga only really tends to have Goku using SSj2 and SSj3 to fight when in sparring/non-serious scenarios, where he's trying to find the real level of his opponent (e.g., Beerus, Trunks, Merus). When he fights in proper combat situations after getting the God forms, they tend to simply be absent and he only uses SSj, SSjG, SSjB and/or Ultra Instinct - as with Hit and all the other Universe 6 tournament opponents, Zamas (in all his variations), Jiren, Moro and his goons, Granolah, and Gas.

The only exceptions to that rule of thumb I can think of offhand are:

• Fighting Toppo in the Zen Exhibition match with all his forms (but he's specifically instructed to display them, and he even says he wasn't planning to do so);
• Fighting Dyspo and Toppo in the Tournament of Power in SSj2 (but it's specified he's only doing that to save power for Jiren anyway).

You could also argue for when he uses SSj3 when recruiting #17, I guess, but there's more than a smidgen of 'trying to gauge his opponent's level' there too, rather than it being 'for real' combat (particularly given that he stops the fight once #17 makes moves to escalate things beyond SSj3). SSj3 also puts in a surprise appearance on Namek in the Moro arc, but that's just because he gets dumped out of SSjG by Moro's magic.

So, he's pretty consistent in the manga too. Unless for some reason something happens in future that really moves the needle, SSj2 and 3 have effectively been relegated to practice forms.

[ssj3kakarot]

How much time has passed since Frieza 1-shot Goku and Vegeta until Goku goes to earth because he sensed Gohan's beast form? Anything official, or even patched together head-cannon?