Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Miracles]

Hopefully, this chapter will clear up where Gohan stands. To be on par with Black Freeza he'd need to oneshot Goku, although narratively that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.

Per Dragonball's history, when the star, I expect Gohan to be more than enough for anyone. Just in this chapter Gohan could transform into Beast "like nothing." He hasn't had any training and already has control over the form which is "insane." When his full potential was released in Cell Games he blew away Cell with one hand, who coulda one shotted the entire Z team at once with full power. Against Buu his full potential was released and he was stronger than Super Buu who could of killed both Goku and Vegeta at the same time easily. I expect the same this Super Hero arc. Where Toriyama's word about Gohan being strongest coming to realization now.

[Hugo Boss]

the Grand Priest has absolutely NO Multiversal showing whatsoever.

He erased Merus, who was located in another universe. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say this skill can reach any place in the multiverse.

Yes, it would be a massive stretch.

Erasing one person means that he can erase the entire Multiverse? Utterly ridiculous.

Not sure why you are assuming I’m talking about Grand Priest erasing the entire multiverse, that’s an omniversal feat. I’m talking about him erasing any being at any place in the multiverse from wherever he is, since you said he doesn’t have any multiversal showing.

And he doesn’t stop in that. Whis easily teleported Goku and Merus from a dimension to another moments before Merus was about to release his true strength. Also, Whis can travel between timelines and rewind time itself, which suggests the scope of angels’ magic could be hyperversal, specially the most powerful of them.

Infinite Zamasu (anime) could be hyperversal if he managed to take over the other timelines and dimensions, but he was stopped before that.

[Koitsukai]

Hopefully, this chapter will clear up where Gohan stands. To be on par with Black Freeza he'd need to oneshot Goku, although narratively that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.

Per Dragonball's history, when the star, I expect Gohan to be more than enough for anyone. Just in this chapter Gohan could transform into Beast "like nothing." He hasn't had any training and already has control over the form which is "insane." When his full potential was released in Cell Games he blew away Cell with one hand, who coulda one shotted the entire Z team at once with full power. Against Buu his full potential was released and he was stronger than Super Buu who could of killed both Goku and Vegeta at the same time easily. I expect the same this Super Hero arc. Where Toriyama's word about Gohan being strongest coming to realization now.

But that happened with the story already coming to an end, in the Buu arc it was kind of a red herring, too. Having the winning power up in the first chapter cuts all tension and build up for Freeza, there's no threat anymore if he finally has a match + Broly and two saiyans as back up.

I wouldn't discard something like that, though, and I won't lie, I'd like to see where the story goes if the new big bad is no longer unreachable by the first episode, if they take him to fight Freeza, if a new threat arises or how the story unfolds after the hierarchy is disputed so soon.

[QuakingStar]

It's not definitive how Zeno and Super Shenron compare until more is revealed about Zalama. For instance, if Toriyama asspulls that Zalama is the true ruler or whatever, then you could argue that Super Shenron's magic is comparable or superior to Zeno's.

As it stands now, both Zeno and Super Shenron can affect each other magics. Zeno can erase someone protected by Super Shenron's magic, and Super Shenron can restore something that was erased by Zeno's magic.

Regardless, I lean more towards Zeno being superior, just because, RIGHT NOW, he is supposed to be the "King of Everything".

You are also correct on the placement of Zamasu. Pretty much nothing short of a Multiversal attack can end him, and the Grand Priest has absolutely NO Multiversal showing whatsoever. At best you can headcanon that the Grand Priest can rewind time to a point before Infinite Zamasu comes into existence, but he himself hasn't shown any feat comparable to Zeno.

Zeno > Super Shenron > Infinite Zamasu > Grand Priest.

Zeno can undo Super Shenron's magic but nothing suggests that Zeno's erasure works like that. Once you are erased, no magic is preventing you from coming back to life.

Also, it doesn't matter if someone can do a multiversal attack or not, if the attack can't erase immortals then it's useless against Infinite Zamasu. The strength or scale of the attack doesn't matter.

For Goku and Vegeta I do think they got stronger, we just don't know how much. Vegeta implied they would not get big leaps anymore and should focus on technique and skill such as the "focus" ability that Jiren used. Zombie Gas was very comfortably owning them, so at the very best they might be AT his level currently... maybe.

In the manga True Golden Frieza is just Frieza using his real full power after he got stronger since he did mental training in Hell.

SS Kale was beating the dog shit out of Golden Frieza whether he was holding back or not. LSS Kale was landing hits that had Goku struggling to block them and he was shaking and had veins on his head as well and her last hit would have for sure broke his block and hit him. In the manga Kales base form was already stronger than SS Caulifla and SS Cabba as well.

SS Kale is easily SSG level. I used only manga here, some terms were taken from the anime though.

So your list is mixing both mediums?

In any case, True Golden Freeza seems to be anime exclusive and he's only SSB tier not higher.

No I'm not mixing mediums, only used the animes term for his mastery of the Golden Frieza form. Goku said Frieza got stronger when he picked him up for the ToP in the manga and Frieza's performance was still essentially the same in the manga.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

I wouldn't discard something like that, though, and I won't lie, I'd like to see where the story goes if the new big bad is no longer unreachable by the first episode, if they take him to fight Freeza, if a new threat arises or how the story unfolds after the hierarchy is disputed so soon.

To be fair, we don't even know if this Freeza fight is happening. I want it to, but we know how this series is with expectations.

I'm also sure Goku vs Gohan is probably going to get avoided as a troll move. That's your typical Toriyama. Chi-Chi will probably show up and Goku will run away or something.

Per Dragonball's history, when the star, I expect Gohan to be more than enough for anyone. Just in this chapter Gohan could transform into Beast "like nothing." He hasn't had any training and already has control over the form which is "insane." When his full potential was released in Cell Games he blew away Cell with one hand, who coulda one shotted the entire Z team at once with full power. Against Buu his full potential was released and he was stronger than Super Buu who could of killed both Goku and Vegeta at the same time easily. I expect the same this Super Hero arc. Where Toriyama's word about Gohan being strongest coming to realization now.

Gohan is the strongest in the Super Hero story... Problem is, Goku wasn't a part of it. We don't know yet if he's the best of all, or just the captain of the B Team.

Yes it does matter, because Infinite Zamasu isn't a person, it's the whole Multiverse.

Do you think Daishinkan could defeat the manga version of Infinite Zamasu? A billion clones is more manageable than reality itself, but I don't remember any Angels showing destructive powers to handle immortals. They just KO/hold GoDs.

Did Daishinkan even kill Merus himself? When I read that scene, I thought it was just some kind of rule of nature. If Daishinkan broke his neutrality, he'd vanish too. It's not his power, and even if it is he can't do it on anyone.

[ZombieVito]

the Grand Priest has absolutely NO Multiversal showing whatsoever.

He erased Merus, who was located in another universe. It wouldn’t be a stretch to say this skill can reach any place in the multiverse.

Yes, it would be a massive stretch.

Erasing one person means that he can erase the entire Multiverse? Utterly ridiculous.

Also, it doesn't matter if someone can do a multiversal attack or not, if the attack can't erase immortals then it's useless against Infinite Zamasu. The strength or scale of the attack doesn't matter.

Yes it does matter, because Infinite Zamasu isn't a person, it's the whole Multiverse.

Not it doesn't because Infinite Zamasu is immortal. If Jiren for example can manage to do an attack that can destroy multiple universes, it wouldn't do shit to Infinite Zamasu because of his immortality.

[Koitsukai]

Do you think Daishinkan could defeat the manga version of Infinite Zamasu? A billion clones is more manageable than reality itself, but I don't remember any Angels showing destructive powers to handle immortals. They just KO/hold GoDs.

Did Daishinkan even kill Merus himself? When I read that scene, I thought it was just some kind of rule of nature. If Daishinkan broke his neutrality, he'd vanish too. It's not his power, and even if it is he can't do it on anyone.

My interpretation is different, I felt that after letting Merus live, and as mortal, it's not an automatic vanish but something he can or cannot do at will, or at the very least undo. If not, then Merus would've stayed dead.
I'll admit it's inconclusive, it could also mean that he can revive angels at will, since he oversees all of them, but if he reigns over their lives, he should also reing over their deaths.

In any case, Infinite Zamasu has infinite defense, but offensively speaking, he couldn't destroy what was inside the shield the saiyans put up. In a power ranking, he is nowhere near the big hitters, however in a who-would-beat who ranking, I'd put him above everybody but the DSK for sure, he'd outlast the GoDs, the angels might not touch it, but IZ wouldn't touch them either... they don't eat or sleep, right? that shit could go on forever.

I wouldn't say DSK can't deal with it either, just because I got killed by an atomic bomb, doesn't mean anything that's not an atomic bomb cannot kill me. There's literally nothing we know about that fucker, if the angels are so broken and he sits above them, I wouldn't be so hasty to write him off just yet.

[SupremeKai25]

Not sure why you are assuming I’m talking about Grand Priest erasing the entire multiverse, that’s an omniversal feat.

Because that is the level of feat required to end Infinite Zamasu. As Gowasu stated, he "merged with the very fabric of the Cosmos".

The only character thus far who has shown Multiversal/Omniversal feat is Zeno.

I’m talking about him erasing any being at any place in the multiverse from wherever he is, since you said he doesn’t have any multiversal showing.

This is a Multiversal showing:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_35Ajam3ucc&t=120s


Erasing someone, even from a different universe, is not a Multiversal showing. He isn't affecting the Multiverse, just one guy.

And he doesn’t stop in that. Whis easily teleported Goku and Merus from a dimension to another moments before Merus was about to release his true strength. Also, Whis can travel between timelines and rewind time itself, which suggests the scope of angels’ magic could be hyperversal, specially the most powerful of them.

And yet, Whis cannot travel to Zeno's palace faster than Supreme Kai, which is why he relied on Supreme Kai's Kai Kai to go to Zeno's palace with Goku.

Infinite Zamasu (anime) could be hyperversal if he managed to take over the other timelines and dimensions, but he was stopped before that.

The Manga version, while overall far less dangerous and threatening than the Anime version, was still planning to invade every other timeline with the U12 time machine.

Do you think Daishinkan could defeat the manga version of Infinite Zamasu? A billion clones is more manageable than reality itself, but I don't remember any Angels showing destructive powers to handle immortals. They just KO/hold GoDs.

Did Daishinkan even kill Merus himself? When I read that scene, I thought it was just some kind of rule of nature. If Daishinkan broke his neutrality, he'd vanish too. It's not his power, and even if it is he can't do it on anyone.

Did the Grand Priest not "kill" Merus himself? That is what I vaguely remember.

Two questions that are necessary to come to a conclusion:

1) Was Merus immortal (are Angels immortal) like Zamasu, or simply very long-lived?
1.5) Can they die in battle, or are they protected from any death/destruction like Zamasu?

2) Did Grand Priest DESTROY or ERASE Merus? (there is a difference; Beerus' Destroy cannot end Zamasu, but Zeno's Erase can)

If, and only IF, Angels are meant to be on the same level of immortal as Zamasu, then I will find the Grand Priest's feat more impressive (but there is still no proof he can extend his power to cover the entire Multiverse, like Zeno).

If Angels are just like the Kais and Destroyers, so very long-lived, but still killable, then Grand Priest doesn't have any "erase" technique comparable to Zeno; therefore, he cannot end Infinite Zamasu.

Not it doesn't because Infinite Zamasu is immortal. If Jiren for example can manage to do an attack that can destroy multiple universes, it wouldn't do shit to Infinite Zamasu because of his immortality.

I don't know why you think I'm disagreeing on that front. But that's an irrelevant point to bring up, because there are no Multiversal-scale attacks beyond Zeno in the first place. That is the point (and how Grand Priest has not shown Multiversal-scaled attack like Zeno).

Jiren also doesn't have any Multiversal-scale attack, so that's an unnecessary concern to bring up.

That is the point. SO far, the only two confirmed Multiversal characters are Zeno and Infinite Zamasu: They are the only characters shown thus far who were able to affect the entire Multiverse.

[Thani]

Honestly it's not even stated that it's Grand Priest who's doing that to angels who break their code. As far as we can tell, it's a natural phenomenon that, at the very least, the Grand Priest is able to undo somehow. It's really vague, though.

[SupremeKai25]

I'm not saying that Infinite Zamasu is stronger than Jiren in terms of firepower itself. I can be convinced that Zamasu's firepower is not greater than Jiren, based on Zamasu's failure to destroy the barrier that Shin and Gowasu created (though, I just chalk that up to Zamasu not really bothering with a few people who were no threat to him).

But in terms of overall power, Infinite Zamasu was able to affect the entire Multiverse and even other timelines with his presence, in both mediums (Manga he was going to invade and spread to the other timelines with U12 time machine).

That kind of feat remains matched only by Zeno, who erased the entire Multiverse that Infinite Zamasu controlled, and Super Shenron, who can restore what Zeno erases.

No one else besides Zeno/Infinite Zamasu/Super Shenron have proven that they can affect the entire Multiverse.

[Hugo Boss]

Erasing someone, even from a different universe, is not a Multiversal showing. He isn't affecting the Multiverse, just one guy.

In fiction versus, multiversal has multiple tier levels with multiple arbitrary layers of complexity. This is only an example of a character from a very long distance affecting another character that is significantly powerful, as Angels scale above the Gods of Destruction, who are already capable of destroying an entire universe. So, Angels are probably Universal+, and Grand Priest being far above them suggests he meets the requirements for low multiversal.

And yet, Whis cannot travel to Zeno's palace faster than Supreme Kai, which is why he relied on Supreme Kai's Kai Kai to go to Zeno's palace with Goku.

Characters from a higher tier are not necessarily better at everything to entities of lower tiers. Space-time techniques can potentially bypass the difference in strength, but in this case I don’t see how Shin can contend or overpower Whis, whose abilities are beyond conventional reality (significantly affecting the entire space-time continuum with his do-over skill).

The Manga version, while overall far less dangerous and threatening than the Anime version, was still planning to invade every other timeline with the U12 time machine.

I’m only counting the anime version, because he has reality bending feats without devices.

Did Daishinkan even kill Merus himself? When I read that scene, I thought it was just some kind of rule of nature. If Daishinkan broke his neutrality, he'd vanish too. It's not his power, and even if it is he can't do it on anyone.

He extinguished Merus by himself and revived him as a mortal. It’s implied this doesn’t happen often, as he granted Shin’s request instead of leaving things as they should be.

[Miracles]

Hopefully, this chapter will clear up where Gohan stands. To be on par with Black Freeza he'd need to oneshot Goku, although narratively that wouldn't be the smartest thing to do.

Per Dragonball's history, when the star, I expect Gohan to be more than enough for anyone. Just in this chapter Gohan could transform into Beast "like nothing." He hasn't had any training and already has control over the form which is "insane." When his full potential was released in Cell Games he blew away Cell with one hand, who coulda one shotted the entire Z team at once with full power. Against Buu his full potential was released and he was stronger than Super Buu who could of killed both Goku and Vegeta at the same time easily. I expect the same this Super Hero arc. Where Toriyama's word about Gohan being strongest coming to realization now.

But that happened with the story already coming to an end, in the Buu arc it was kind of a red herring, too. Having the winning power up in the first chapter cuts all tension and build up for Freeza, there's no threat anymore if he finally has a match + Broly and two saiyans as back up.

I wouldn't discard something like that, though, and I won't lie, I'd like to see where the story goes if the new big bad is no longer unreachable by the first episode, if they take him to fight Freeza, if a new threat arises or how the story unfolds after the hierarchy is disputed so soon.

Gohan was built up for Cell Games like in this Super Hero arc as one who could be stronger than Goku/Vegeta "if he wanted to be." BTW, We are still in the Super Hero arc. We could say this arc is possibly coming to an end or at the end this chapter.

Per Dragonball's history, when the star, I expect Gohan to be more than enough for anyone. Just in this chapter Gohan could transform into Beast "like nothing." He hasn't had any training and already has control over the form which is "insane." When his full potential was released in Cell Games he blew away Cell with one hand, who coulda one shotted the entire Z team at once with full power. Against Buu his full potential was released and he was stronger than Super Buu who could of killed both Goku and Vegeta at the same time easily. I expect the same this Super Hero arc. Where Toriyama's word about Gohan being strongest coming to realization now.

Gohan is the strongest in the Super Hero story... Problem is, Goku wasn't a part of it. We don't know yet if he's the best of all, or just the captain of the B Team.

We technically are still in the Super Hero story. Where Vegeta reported that Bulma said Gohan may have surpassed Goku/Vegeta. Goku is where Gohan is now after sensing his power.

[Mr Baggins]

Toriyama's quote on Gohan being the strongest ("or so it is said") is specifically about his role in the film, where he needs Piccolo's motivation rather than Goku's to come to terms with his power. That's the context of what he's getting at for anyone reading the whole passage. We've clearly gone beyond the movie.

It's pretty obvious to me that all this ambiguity surrounding #1 is completely intentional. Vegeta is currently training Broly to harness his full might, while Goku is supposedly about to test or measure Gohan's might. There are several candidates for potentially taking on Black Freeza, and knowing how DB operates, the answer will probably be unexpected.

[picc]

How do we see the top fighters in relation to the other gods of destruction, meaning aside from Beerus who is clearly still the strongest?

I was just reading the pre-ToP stuff the other day and saw the part where goku went ssg against toppo, and one of the GoD's said he was already at their level.

Obviously this isn't true, but how are seeing UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Beast Gohan, and Broly vs the lesser gods of destruction at this point?

[ZombieVito]

How do we see the top fighters in relation to the other gods of destruction, meaning aside from Beerus who is clearly still the strongest?

I was just reading the pre-ToP stuff the other day and saw the part where goku went ssg against toppo, and one of the GoD's said he was already at their level.

Obviously this isn't true, but how are seeing UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Beast Gohan, and Broly vs the lesser gods of destruction at this point?

Gohan, Broly, Goku, Vegeta and Piccolo should all be able to beat Belmond at least since all of them surpassed ToP Jiren.

[DBZ Macky]

1) I would add Infinite Zamasu just underneath Zeno and put Super Shenron equal to the later.
2) Gohan is stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
3) Piccolo is on par with Goku and Vegeta.
4) Cell Max is stronger than Goku and Vegeta.
5) Gamma 2's attack should be one tier below Cell Max.
6) SSB Vegetto was on par with Fused Zamasu.
7) You have Gamma 1 very high. He's just SSB tier in SH so it should be SSBKK from the ToP.
8 ) Koichiarator should be stronger than Goku Black. It gave trouble to a much stronger Goku.
9) Future Zamasu is SS2 tier. Just like his present self.
10) Obuni shouldn't be that high. He lost to base Vegeta, stalemated with base Gohan and only gave the later trouble because of his feints.
11) Rubalt, Damon and Gamisaras are base tier since Piccolo is too in the ToP.

1) Infinite Zamasu should still be as strong as Merged Zamasu, it's just that he can't be killed. Also, I know it's kind of a futile effort to reconcile the Anime and the Manga, let alone SDBH, but apparently Zamasu was still alive in the Prison Planet Arc. So it's kind of iffy but I'd still put Super Shenron above Zeno.

I would place Infinite Zamasu here. He was granted Immortality by Super Shenron and it took Zeno himself to end him, no one else could. In terms of villain escalation, that's as far as it can possibly get.

Jiren was stated to be the strongest Ki felt upto that point, so him and others at his level should be above Infinite Zamasu for all intents and purposes.
I chuckled when I saw the Zamasu profile picture in the left after reading your post about Zamasu's power

2) I think Gohan was stronger than Goku and Vegeta from the last time Piccolo and co. saw them, but I'd still put the both of them above him. I don't think we'll get a Goku VS Gohan fight in the Manga, but I guess we'll find out who's stronger for sure if it does happen.

3) I only think that he's on par as in he's in the "beyond the Hakaishin" category at best. Nothing in the actual story suggests he's close in power to the strongest guys. However, I do think he'd be on the same level if he pulled the self sacrificing Light Grenade he was about to use against Moro.

4) Stronger than Goku and Vegeta from when the Movie was released, which was before Gas was a thing, yeah.

5) It's in the same tier as Orange Piccolo, albeit a bit weaker.

6) Yeah, he dicked around at that level until he used the Kamehameha in the Manga and that final punch in the Anime that made him defuse.

7) I keep hearing that they're SSB tier but has this ever been actually stated? The Gammas are weaker than Ultimate Gohan who's equal to LSS Kefla in the Manga, but they're stated to be the strongest Androids so they should be above 17, so I just put them somewhere in between there.

8 ) On the fence on this one. On one hand, Goku said his stamina had "recovered a bit" before he joined the fight against Koichiarator so I have no trouble putting him below the SSBs. But it could also be above them since Gohan had to charge his Kamehameha a fair bit to defeat him, and the same Gohan was able to push Goku into SSB in their sparring match. I think either could work.

P.S. I do not know how hard it would be to code this but can we get a petition to not change "8 )" to on this forum if, say, "6)" and "7)" are present in the same post?

9) Yeah, I think I did put him a bit too high. He was getting owned by SSG Goku in the Manga so I'd put him in that tier at best. I still think he could've gotten stronger in the time that had elapsed. I'd put him around Anime Kale's level since both of them have the same tendency to fluctuate between fighting SSBs and jobbing to a SSG.

10) Yeah, I included his technique for the ranking though.

11) Piccolo has always made the Base Saiyans look better than him since like the Buu arc, but do not believe him. He be hiding his power to make Gohan look more impressive.

Welcome back, buddy!

Thus far, FP Broly and the blue fusions are the only characters directly mentioned to be stronger than Beerus since their debut, so all three should rank above him. Green Broly doesn't really need the "DBS Super Hero" moniker IMO; that form is inaccessible and there's additionally no evidence or basis to assume he's grown that much stronger since the movie.

I wouldn't mix the TV and manga continuities. Or if you're going to mix them, it's best to use the manga as your main frame of reference since that's the more coherent version that wasn't written by a gazillion disorganized script writers. I don't think anyone of authority meant for future Zamasu to be god tier.

Thanks!

The way I see it, a lot of characters have surpassed Anime!Beerus or "Base Beerus". The only ones explicitly stated to have done so are Jiren in the Anime (albeit being ever so slightly vague), Vegito in the Manga and Broly in the Movie. But other characters should scale to being stronger than this level too.

Manga!Beerus on the other hand was shown to use an imperfect version of Ultra Instinct and should have some version of Ultra Ego as well. It makes sense to me that it's only because of these techniques that he's simultaneously surpassed by every relevant character and yet still remains a wall for Goku and co.

I think Goku and Vegeta could've taken on LSS Broly from the Movie because Granolah and Gas's wish should've made them stronger than him, but "DBSSH Broly" is stronger than pretty much everyone except Frieza because of Victory Uchida's comment about Broly being unsurpassed still.

I get ya man, It takes a hefty bit of head-canon but I don't think it's that difficult to meld the Anime and Manga's scaling into something coherent. The writers had to put out a product by the end of the week, and Toyotaro by the end of a month so the "official" power scale will never make perfect sense but it feels good to have a consistent one in your own head. I enjoy the luxury to do this stuff as a hobby.

By the way, how strong do y'all think Goten, Trunks and Gotenks are now? Why is Fat Gotenks so stronk? Have we been sleeping on the failed fusions all this time?

[SupremeKai25]

Jiren was stated to be the strongest Ki felt upto that point, so him and others at his level should be above Infinite Zamasu for all intents and purposes.

That's cool, but unfortunately irrelevant. Jiren cannot put down Infinite Zamasu, while IZ can just outlast. So IZ > Jiren (as power level isn't everything).

That is why you have Zeno himself coming out to end Infinite Zamasu. If Jiren and others like him could end Zamasu, Toriyama wouldn't have needed to pull out the literal biggest Deus ex machina imaginable.

Also, in-universe statements are overrated. Yes, sometimes a character is right, other times they are wrong, as when Goku thought Broly was stronger than Beerus (clearly that is not the case).

So Shin (character who is not omniscient) thinks that Jiren's ki feels "different" (he doesn't say "stronger", "different") from IZ, but he is a character in the story with limited knowledge. The fact is that SHIN THINKS Jiren is stronger than IZ. That is the fact: what Shin thinks. Nothing more.

Also, in fairness, you can make the argument that Zamasu was gradually growing stronger as he was consuming reality. That's par for the course with these eldritch 4D entities. As they grow in size, they grow in power, and Zamasu was actively consuming every universe and invading other timelines.

I mean, in Xenoverse 2 you even had Infinite Zamasu going to that weird time place that should exist outside of reality.

1) Infinite Zamasu should still be as strong as Merged Zamasu, it's just that he can't be killed. Also, I know it's kind of a futile effort to reconcile the Anime and the Manga, let alone SDBH, but apparently Zamasu was still alive in the Prison Planet Arc. So it's kind of iffy but I'd still put Super Shenron above Zeno.

Yes, Zamasu in Heroes is the same Zamasu from DBS who survived, the proof of this is that he referenced Trunks and co. beating him when talking to Hearts.

[Mr Baggins]

I think Goku and Vegeta could've taken on LSS Broly from the Movie because Granolah and Gas's wish should've made them stronger than him, but "DBSSH Broly" is stronger than pretty much everyone except Frieza because of Victory Uchida's comment about Broly being unsurpassed still.

Uchida's comment predates the Super Hero arc. He can't be referring to current Broly who is much weaker than in the movie because he's unable to unleash his full strength, per Vegeta's comment. Granolah's wish only made him the strongest mortal in the universe at that present moment, otherwise it would have counted fusions as well; there's a reason he was only moderately stronger than Goku or Vegeta.

Regarding Infinite Zamasu, I fully agree with you. This is a strength thread and we're clearly discussing strength rankings, not "who can outlast who". He hasn't been in the conversation for four whole arcs and it's fair to say most of us have moved on.

By the way, how strong do y'all think Goten, Trunks and Gotenks are now? Why is Fat Gotenks so stronk? Have we been sleeping on the failed fusions all this time?

Fat Gotenks is a poor fighter, but an excellent bullet.

[SupremeKai25]

Regarding Infinite Zamasu, I fully agree with you. This is a strength thread and we're clearly discussing strength rankings, not "who can outlast who". He hasn't been in the conversation for four whole arcs and it's fair to say most of us have moved on.

Strength is not just power level. Strength as a term refers to everything, including endurance, stamina, energy, speed, etc.

Considering how it took literally the King of Everything to end him, Infinite Zamasu is timeless. He was relevant to bring up in 2016, is still relevant to bring up in 2024 (as the famous Beast Gohan, UI Goku, UE Vegeta, Broly, and whatever else aren't doing anything to him) and will probably still be relevant to bring up in 2030.

I don't agree with this notion that only power level is relevant. That is NOT the only thing that strength is. Strength includes everything, including how durable or tough someone is.

As for the reason why he is "never brought up", it should be obvious. Goku and Vegeta bring up past foes only in the context of training, to follow their model. There's no point in bringing up IZ because you're not going to get to his level by training. That is kind of the point of the scaling placement. Zeno/IZ/Super Shenron and, maybe, the Grand Priest are beyond what Goku and Vegeta can reach through training, so they are not even worth bringing up during their training sessions.

The fact that Goku and Vegeta keep bringing up Jiren/Moro/Broly/Granolah/etc. instead of IZ might be a point in Zamasu's favour, actually (and Goku/Vegeta simply knowing their place in the pecking order).

[Mr Baggins]

Strength is not just power level. Strength as a term refers to everything, including endurance, stamina, energy, speed, etc.

Yes, and Jiren is better than Zamasu in all categories as a fighter. So is Moro, who Goku referred to as his "toughest" foe (タフ historically refers to durability/difficulty). So is Granolah, Gas, Freeza, and so on and so forth.

If you take Infinite Zamasu and make him corporeal, he's just Merged Zamasu. Merged Zamasu stopped being relevant in 2017, bro.