Dragon Ball Without Its Creator

[omaro34]

All good things must come to an end. Dragonball will never be the same without Toriyama involved in some capacity. After Daima, I would call it quits on the series to be honest.

[Ki Breaker]

Toriyama's DragonBall has a distinct tone, I have not seen anyone replicate this tone so far. DragonBall isn't fun without this particular feeling.

As things stands right now, if nothing changes DragonBall's popularity will decrease over time, until the series stops being profitable altogether.

[Trouser]

Of course Dragon Ball won't "end". There are still going to be stories by Toei, Toyotarou or whatever. But they're not going to be part of the main continuity, they're not going to be "canon", they will never be. We'll get plenty of new material - games, spinoffs, oneshots, etc. because where's Dragon Ball there's money and at the end of the day Shueisha and other companies are all about money.

The "real" Dragon World is dead. We'll never know what happened after the last chapter of the manga. We have GT, but that's just a side story, a "what if?" story. Dragon Ball without Toriyama won't be the same, no matter who's the writer.

I'll check the new material out from time to time, but I'm not going to give much damn about it.

[Hellspawn28]

I feel like Dragon Ball will probably be like how Kamen Rider was after Shotaro Ishinomori died. Toei will milk it and we still get good content, but still won't feel the same.

[Lord Beerus]

The cold reality is that to Shueisha, Bandai and Toei, Dragon Ball is a multi-billion-dollar IP that will continue to make a profit regardless of the presence of its creator. They continue to franchise out the IP until it stops making a lot of money for them.

I would love to say that on the 40th anniversary of when Dragon Ball began, and in the Year of the Dragon no less, that the final Dragon Ball project before Toriyama's untimely passing was Dragon Ball Daima. But we don't live in a world where that kind of heartwarming and yet melancholic conclusion is possible.

[SHINOBI-03]

If you asked this question 10/11 years ago I'd probably said something like "The story is all done. There's no need to get concerned about the status of the franchise".

But right now? I feel like the pillar that holds it within itself is gone and my cynical mind tells me things will get worse. While I don't mind the modern Dragon Ball stuff I still have my issues with it. In my X account I once described the current Dragon Ball like a glorified fanfic turned official because a lot of what we're getting to me anyway feels like stuff fans typically think of and it goes doubly with a Dragon Ball fan steering where the current story goes (New transformations, new "missing link" characters, old enemies turned friends, more tournaments) and that's all under Toriyama's supervision, so one wonders how far Shueisha, Bandai and Toei are willing to take it now that basically they're the ones having total control over the franchise without the original owner and creator giving them his own input.

[Mr Baggins]

That there will be more Dragon Ball is evident. It's a very profitable franchise. But I personally won't really care about it. Sure, I'll play some video game that's based on the franchise if I feel like it, but as far as story goes, I won't watch or read anything to learn more about Dragon Ball, because that's something that I think only Toriyama can provide with any sort of legitimacy and authenticity. I wouldn't have cared about Battle of Gods if I didn't learn about Toriyama's involvement at the time. Same for everything else that came after.

Toyotaro may have worked with Toriyama but it's almost evident from his works what comes from him and what doesn't. Even if his artistic sensibilities were virtually the same as Toriyama's (and they aren't), it still wouldn't be the same.

200% this. Every word of it.

I like Toyotaro more than most non-Toriyama DB writers, but he's such a far cry from Toriyama himself that there's legitimately no comparison; he alone is insufficient to keep me on the story.

What would be sufficient, however, is any posthumous work directly from Toriyama. The ball is in Shueisha's court to clarify what exactly qualifies as that, but if they don't bother, I'm not gonna bother with any of their stuff either.

The curtain has closed, as far as I'm concerned.

[dragonballhero]

I'm going to be totally honest here... while it's absolutely gutting me right now that Toriyama has left us, THIS might have been the first thing on my mind after hearing the news.

Between GT and Toyotaro's work, I'm genuinely wondering if there's anyone who can continue DB's work, or if they even SHOULD.

Like, DB continuing without Toriyama altogether gives off the same feeling I have about how a certain video game series might continue without its leading "visionary" at some point in the (hopefully) INCREDIBLY distant future.

For the record, I won't mention the series I'm talking about by name, as I REALLY do NOT want to jinx the creator or something. If you know what series I'm talking about, then... you get an internet cookie, I guess?

[Kunzait_83]

There's really not much to say on this topic: Dragon Ball is basically going to just be another whored-out mega IP like any other, a mechanism for major media corporations in Japan (and around the world) to generate revenue off of. As much as people don't like to admit this (for whatever reason), even the Super-era revival material had largely minimal involvement from Toriyama to begin with. We'd already BEEN in the "post-Toriyama" age - to one extent or another - for all these years from GT onward.

Dragon Ball as a direct product of Toriyama's mind and creativity had ended pretty much definitively in May of 1995. Most everything after that, while having its ups and downs (but more downs than ups in the grand scheme of things, lets be real) all qualifies to one degree or another as "post-Toriyama". Only difference now is, we won't even have the minimal "bullet point/napkin notes" involvement he had before during the revival up to this point.

The only real exception to this is Dragon Ball Minus, and... well, I don't want to speak ill of the guy's latter work so soon after his passing, but yeah.

There's really not much more to say than that really: as sad and sudden as Toriyama's passing is, as far as Dragon Ball itself is concerned this isn't that hugely different of a status quo from where we were from '96 to now.

[sangofe]

Dragon Ball as a direct product of Toriyama's mind and creativity had ended pretty much definitively in May of 1995. Most everything after that, while having its ups and downs (but more downs than ups in the grand scheme of things, lets be real) all qualifies to one degree or another as "post-Toriyama". Only difference now is, we won't even have the minimal "bullet point/napkin notes" involvement he had before during the revival up to this point.

The only real exception to this is Dragon Ball Minus, and... well, I don't want to speak ill of the guy's latter work so soon after his passing, but yeah.

There's really not much more to say than that really: as sad and sudden as Toriyama's passing is, as far as Dragon Ball itself is concerned this isn't that hugely different of a status quo from where we were from '96 to now.

Pardon me, but do you not believe that Toriyama was largely behind Dragon Ball Daima? Or were you just commenting on what's been released already?

[Kunzait_83]

Pardon me, but do you not believe that Toriyama was largely behind Dragon Ball Daima? Or were you just commenting on what's been released already?

I was commenting on what was released thus far. Apart from being heavily involved in the scriptwriting for the theatrical movies, Toriyama's involvement in the vast majority of the Dragon Ball revival has been very minimal and amounts to essentially very broad outlines and bullet points. A lot of fans, out of genuine love and enthusiasm, like to blow that up into being way more than what it is... but if we're just being totally real, his involvement in most of the revival thus far has largely been only a few shades more involved than he was in GT.

Daima I haven't been really following the development of (got too much going on IRL right now, and frankly Daima looks conceptually... not very appealing, to put it mildly): I've heard that he's had a lot more direct involvement in Daima, but given how much the fanbase has overly inflated/exaggerated his level of involvement in most of Super, I have to take at least SOME of that with a grain of salt.

I'm sure he's had more involvement in Daima that in other DB Revival material (that much has at least been echoed by more credible voices that I do trust), but to what extent I don't know, as I've not been following Daima very closely thus far, and I'm hardly going to take random fanbase hearsay as gospel on these things for obvious reasons.

[Zephyr]

I'm generally in the "Dragon Ball ended in 1995" camp, but what happens from here on is definitely going to be different in some specific ways. Part of what made me interested in Super was the idea of "where would Toriyama have gone next, after Boo?", and even if the answers we got were indirectly and in the form of designs and plot beats filtered through the lenses of other creators, we were still somewhat getting those answers. Training with gods of destruction and angels, multiversal tournaments, rogue Kaioshin, and Freeza walking down the path of a martial artist were things I thought was cool to see, and there was some definite Toriyama irreverence built into the plot beats themselves, such that it not being directly from Toriyama still had some charm.

Unfortunately, we never got to meet back up with the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, so the rest of this hypothetical can't really be fully cashed out anymore. It would be cool if Toriyama had stuff written down as to how he might 'end' "Super", and reach the 28th Tenkaichi Budokai, but I know that's unlikely, and frankly outside of Dragon Ball's spirit in the first place, so it's ultimately fine. But I was still quite interested in seeing what plans, if any, Toriyama had for Freeza, if there would have been a second Tournament of Power with everybody's new strength and forms, and if Neko Majin was going to be recontextualized and incorporated into "Super", or what.

What comes next (and more will come) will definitely be different. Naturally, Toriyama most likely was working on some stuff that we've yet to see even announced yet, planning and production on these things can go on for a while before we're aware of them, so it's unclear when the "break" between "Toriyama-involved DB" and "non-Toriyama-involved DB" will be, or if we'll even be told when we reach it. Will that break be the next thing after Daima, part way through Daima, or will another movie or two still have his designs and plot beats? Who knows.

In terms of Toyotaro being the 'chosen successor', I'm not really into it. The Moro arc was mostly his baby, and the aspects of DB that I love the most (the martial drama, the drive for strength cultivation, the gloves-off shitposting, etc.) weren't really there in the way they are when Toriyama's at least writing the major plot beats. So an arc that's the brainchild of Toyotaro, Uchida, and Iyoku probably isn't going to deliver what I'm still here for. I can't say I won't check it out, but the interest I have in it will be distinctly different.

[Kunzait_83]

I'm generally in the "Dragon Ball ended in 1995" camp, but what happens from here on is definitely going to be different in some specific ways. Part of what made me interested in Super was the idea of "where would Toriyama have gone next, after Boo?", and even if the answers we got were indirectly and in the form of designs and plot beats filtered through the lenses of other creators, we were still somewhat getting those answers. Training with gods of destruction and angels, multiversal tournaments, rogue Kaioshin, and Freeza walking down the path of a martial artist were things I thought was cool to see, and there was some definite Toriyama irreverence built into the plot beats themselves, such that it not being directly from Toriyama still had some charm.

These are all valid, fair points. Much of the broad plot beats and key points still definitely echoed some of the old Toriyama magic, even if its heavily, heavily filtered through dozens of other hands in the stew. Its a real shame that there was never any real closure on where some of that stuff was ultimately headed. Hopefully there's still some leftover Toriyama notes (Daima aside that is) that have yet to be adopted, and if so it'd be awfully nice (though I'm certainly not expecting it) if there was some public transparency towards where those notes begin and end with whatever forthcoming material.

[JulieYBM]

The problem has lied in that Dragon Ball has always been a work of a series creator who didn't really have a dedicated passion for writing, and corporate suits. It's rare that it has been allowed a moment to be told by a creator unencumbered by something. I think that Nagamine's Movie #20 was the closest that we got to that (recently), and even then I imagine his control over the story was hindered.

I want to see creators create, and not worry about pleasing overly controlling corporate interests.

[cuartas]

IMO as a minimum, I just want them to release whatever was done for Daima, then animate the 2 wrapped up manga arcs and then finish whatever is left of the arc that's just starting in the manga.

It would be SO NAIVE of me to think the last chapter in the manga was literally the last thing Akira had in mind and no plot forward was discussed and approved, there's probably an ending to it already drafted from him, So... finish this arc, adapt it to Anime as well, and be done with it, ask Toyotaro to find a clever way to connect everything with the EoZ and we've come full circle, a perfect way to end Dragon Ball as a whole without having to again grasp the reigns of non canon material like GT. Of course more will come of Dragon Ball thanks to the suits at Shueshia, etc, but I think it's clear we as a fanbase won't take it serious or even remotely consider it canon

[Vegetto95]

There's really not much to say on this topic: Dragon Ball is basically going to just be another whored-out mega IP like any other, a mechanism for major media corporations in Japan (and around the world) to generate revenue off of. As much as people don't like to admit this (for whatever reason), even the Super-era revival material had largely minimal involvement from Toriyama to begin with. We'd already BEEN in the "post-Toriyama" age - to one extent or another - for all these years from GT onward.

Dragon Ball as a direct product of Toriyama's mind and creativity had ended pretty much definitively in May of 1995. Most everything after that, while having its ups and downs (but more downs than ups in the grand scheme of things, lets be real) all qualifies to one degree or another as "post-Toriyama". Only difference now is, we won't even have the minimal "bullet point/napkin notes" involvement he had before during the revival up to this point.

The only real exception to this is Dragon Ball Minus, and... well, I don't want to speak ill of the guy's latter work so soon after his passing, but yeah.

There's really not much more to say than that really: as sad and sudden as Toriyama's passing is, as far as Dragon Ball itself is concerned this isn't that hugely different of a status quo from where we were from '96 to now.

That's basically the way I see it as well. I mean, look at, for example, the 2018 Broli movie, which is something I see a lot of people frequently tout as "Look, Toriyama had so much involvement with the scripts!!"... but even that started out as a pitch the writing staff at Tōei made TO Toriyama. I definitely get the feeling that his overall involvement in it has been greatly exaggerated, probably for marketing first and foremost (especially considering that that film had little to no actual story whatsoever, just a horrendously overlong to the point of being mind-numbingly boring fight sequence for its entire second half, and what little story it DID have in the first half was almost entirely recycled from the original 1992 Broli movie and Minus... *shudders*)

While his mark has definitely been there- BARELY there, but there- for the last decade of Super-era stuff, such as the wonderful humor in the first half of the Super Hero movie (which is sadly drowned out in the second half in favor of the braindead, fanservicey Orange Piccolo/Gohan Beast/Cell Max bullshit), overall, 99.9% of the current era DB stuff has felt VERY drastically different from the 1984-1995/6 stuff, and not in a good way. I really don't feel like whatever comes out of the franchise from now on will be particularly distinguishable tonally and stylistically from what we've already been getting since 2015.

And if the Moro and Granolah arcs are any indication of the kind of stuff Toyotarō comes up with when left 98% to his own devices with barely any involvement from Toriyama whatsoever, then the manga doesn't have a particularly bright future ahead of it either (not that it matters much to me, as I stopped reading it two years ago after the disastrously bad Granolah arc, but still...)

[Neo-Makaiōshin]

As has been repeatly said, more Dragon Ball content will still come out and it will be different. As sad as his passing is, it will not greatly affect how I interact with series. I have equally enjoyed and disliked the non-Toriyama content made by Toei staff (and other contributors), and same thing with Toriyama's original 42 volumes. Whatever comes next, if it is good? Great, it is good, I will enjoy it. If it is bad? No deal breaker, I will just disregard it, not care and move on.

[Kaboom]

All I'm gonna say is that I sincerely hope Daima ends up being genuinely good, because after how most modern stuff like Minus and Super turned out, I'd very much like for Toriyama's last big contribution to the franchise to be a high note.

In the meantime, I'm trying to focus on fondly remembering the classic material above all else.

[AliTheZombie13]

OK, don't take what I'm about to say here wrongly.
I know I've been very critical of Toriyama's work in this forum, but I still respected him as a person above all and I would never wish for this scenario to happen in the first place.

That being said... I feel like the franchise has dropped off a hill in quality ever since Namek.
Everything that came off it ever since, be it supervised by Toriyama or not, has been hit-or-miss.
In that sense, this franchise has already been "dead" to me, so nothing really changes.

Even then, there are things I appreciate about Dragon Ball that have no Toriyama hand on them.
Music, art direction, animation, voice acting, even storytelling in the cases where Toriyama simply "approves of something."
I feel like attaching the success of something to a single person is wrong and a stump on creativity, as well as an insult to everyone else who worked on it.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

While I certainly didn't expect Toriyama's passing to be this soon there's never been any doubt in my mind the series would go on when the man's time came.

I've noticed a good few here say Dragon Ball is now over for them I can't help but feel while us here at Kanzenshuu are a sizeable community we're still a vocal minority within the global Dragon Ball fan community as a whole.

Whatever Capsule Corp Tokyo, Shueshia or Bandai pump out there will still be a large number of fans consuming that content, no doubt an immeasurable number of casual fans will continue to be happy with more Dragon Ball.

We're also living in an age that's obsessed with nostalgia, and there's older fans out there who also got their kids into Dragon Ball, which is a trend I don't see going away anytime soon, if anything it will happen more with time.