The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[JulieYBM]

It was bad according to Toriyama.

That is the point. It was bad according to Toriyama, so Toriyama changed it and we got the Lord Beerus we all know.

So Lord Beerus and the entirety of BoG aligns with Toriyama's vision.

Except his script is still based on the ideas of others. Making a film takes more than one person, and while Toriyama got to have his name on the film, he still isn't the only person involved in adapting his script to film. The idea that Toriyama should be given more importance than he's due, despite being otherwised uninvolved past scripting and initial design work only works because he is given an artificial importance by the production committee members, who want to be able to market their commercial product as the vision of the 'original creator' (a guy with really no animation or directing experience).

[AliTheZombie13]

These are literally storylines that Toriyama worked on. Why does it matter if they weren't stories that he ORIGINALLY wanted to tell? (but he still ended up telling them in the end)

and doing something purely out of spite just so your name won't be stained by the incompetence of those involved (Super)

Yet those involved were literally following Toriyama's bullet points.

U6/Zamasu/ToP arc, that is all Toriyama (except for SSB Vegito who was added by Toyotaro for fan-service).

Exactly. Toriyama didn't write any of Super, he gave Toyotaro and Toei bullet points. And which bullet points? I don't know.
Is the character regression of Super a result of Toriyama's artistic integrity, or was it just Toei making a caricature out of them?
Is the sudden, abrupt ending of the Goku Black arc something Toriyama planned all along, or was it pushed by Toei?
How much of Goku's "I don't care, I just want a good fight" actions in Super, to the point he feels like the villain of the story, came from Toriyama and how much of it is just Toei's bad writing and taking his statements that "Goku isn't a good person" to the extreme?
There's a lot of question marks in Super that makes me doubt about its "artistic integrity."
Is ALL OF SUPER valid as Toriyama's creation, or just a few select events?

If I recall, Toriyama was also involved in the pre-production of GT, took part in their meetings, approved of their rough outlines for the initial half of the show, and even designed the planets they would visit. Does that make the first half of GT "canon"? Does it give it any sort of artistic integrity? Because one of the most frequent arguments I hear about it is that it is pointless, directionless and "lacks soul," even though Toriyama was involved in it.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy the argument of "what Toriyama does gives it quality because it has artistic integrity", for the simple reality that those were never stories that he wanted to tell. Those were stories someone else wanted to tell, and he tampered with.

[Grimlock]

Much like how many Star Wars fans refuses to aknowledge anything without involvement from George Lucas as canon, so does some Dragon ball fans dismiss anything without significant involvement by Toriyama as non canon.

Really? I've never been a fan of Star Wars so I don't know much about it. But from what you say I guess stupidity runs wild throughout "fanbases".

Especially since the beggning of the Super part of the franchise where the same stroies have been told up to 3 times (movies, the TV series, and the manga) it's been more up to fans than ever before to decide for themselves how to reconcile these medium and try to comprehend a "core" canon. And a common way to start when trying to go about this task has been "what was Toriyama's original ideas?".

In other words, it's an utterly pointless "task" since no one has access to Toriyama's notes and sketches. We don't know exactly what came from him and what did not.

Goku never beat Beerus. We will never know what Black Frieza was planning. Ultra Instinct ended up being Goku's strongest form.

For now, maybe. Until someone decides to continue and/or finish up those ideas. And if it's official, then it will be all that matters.

Gohan ended up, in all likelyhood, being more powerful than his father, even though his father is obviously a superior fighter. This last part actually feels, well, appropriate, since this is essentially where we left of after the end of the original DB manga. "Gohan is the strongest unfused Z fighter". Remember that one?

No, I don't. What I do remember is that seven years made Gohan weaker. So ten years without any event (if we don't count Dragon Ball Super) would make him lose even greater power. Gohan never ended the original series as the strongest. That's a "fan perception" that, naturally and as expected, is wrong.

fans will not be able to look at any one persons vision for new DB stories as the most "true" vision.

And they shouldn't. A bubble must always be bursted so as to avoid ignorance. Other visions should be welcomed, a valuable gem may be hidden somewhere in there.

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

There's nothing more (relevant or important) to be said after this.

[SupremeKai25]

and doing something purely out of spite just so your name won't be stained by the incompetence of those involved (Super)

Yet those involved were literally following Toriyama's bullet points.

U6/Zamasu/ToP arc, that is all Toriyama (except for SSB Vegito who was added by Toyotaro for fan-service).

Exactly. Toriyama didn't write any of Super, he gave Toyotaro and Toei bullet points. And which bullet points? I don't know.
Is the character regression of Super a result of Toriyama's artistic integrity, or was it just Toei making a caricature out of them?
Is the sudden, abrupt ending of the Goku Black arc something Toriyama planned all along, or was it pushed by Toei?
How much of Goku's "I don't care, I just want a good fight" actions in Super, to the point he feels like the villain of the story, came from Toriyama and how much of it is just Toei's bad writing and taking his statements that "Goku isn't a good person" to the extreme?
There's a lot of question marks in Super that makes me doubt about its "artistic integrity."
Is ALL OF SUPER valid as Toriyama's creation, or just a few select events?

If I recall, Toriyama was also involved in the pre-production of GT, took part in their meetings, approved of their rough outlines for the initial half of the show, and even designed the planets they would visit. Does that make the first half of GT "canon"? Does it give it any sort of artistic integrity? Because one of the most frequent arguments I hear about it is that it is pointless, directionless and "lacks soul," even though Toriyama was involved in it.

I'm sorry, but I can't buy the argument of "what Toriyama does gives it quality because it has artistic integrity", for the simple reality that those were never stories that he wanted to tell.

Goku acting dumb? That is Toei dumbing him down because they saw how popular and mainstream One Piece is and they wanted Goku to be another Luffy/Naive kid who doesn't know anything.

Believe it or not, the abrupt ending of the FT arc is 99% Toriyama, because both the Anime and Manga adhered to it, and Future Zeno plays a major role in the ToP arc (but Future Zeno can be in the ToP arc only if Zamasu destroys the Future timeline in the previous arc).

There is another alternative (1%): That somehow the stars aligned and Toei and Toyotaro were truly on the same track and simultaneously agreed to end the FT arc the same way... but it's far more likely that it was Toriyama's idea to have Zamasu destroy Trunks' timeline.

Goku wanting to chase even higher heights and trespassing into the domain of the Gods? That is Toriyama, it is the storyline he set-up with BoG. Goku realizing that Earth is not the end; that there is an entire Multiverse beyond Earth, even greater Gods and mortals waiting out there in the stars. That is all Toriyama.

That weird subplot of the ToP where the other universes see Goku as a villain? Meaningless filler probably made by Toei. I doubt Toriyama cared about what the Furries of U9 (Irrelevant weaklings) think about Goku.

Does ALL of Super reflect Toriyama's vision? No, but many things in Super came from Toriyama, in a much a larger and more significant amount compared to GT and Heroes.

It was bad according to Toriyama.

That is the point. It was bad according to Toriyama, so Toriyama changed it and we got the Lord Beerus we all know.

So Lord Beerus and the entirety of BoG aligns with Toriyama's vision.

Except his script is still based on the ideas of others. Making a film takes more than one person, and while Toriyama got to have his name on the film, he still isn't the only person involved in adapting his script to film. The idea that Toriyama should be given more importance than he's due, despite being otherwised uninvolved past scripting and initial design work only works because he is given an artificial importance by the production committee members, who want to be able to market their commercial product as the vision of the 'original creator' (a guy with really no animation or directing experience).

Super is exactly what you are talking about.

Do the broad plot points of Super come from Toriyama? Yes.

Do the minute details come from others? Yes.

Toriyama created the character of Goku Black (after it was suggested to him by the Dragon Room I'm told). Toriyama decided to create an entire arc around a villain who looks like Goku, but is actually an evil Supreme Kai.

Goku Black and Zamasu are characters created by Toriyama. We know this, because we have the designs of Toriyama for the villain of the arc:




But Toei then gave Black the identity of a swordsman who uses Ki blades a a core component of his fighting style. Toei gave Black the personality that he is slowly getting influenced by Goku's body, resulting in a weird mix of a Kaioshin and a Saiyan. Toei gave Black and Zamasu the Tea-sipping moments where they just chill in that cabin. Toyotaro gave Zamasu the fighting style of a Supreme Kai who uses Telekinesis and Gravity manipulation as a core component of his fighting style. Toyotaro decided to have SSB Vegito fight Fused Zamasu, in a final climactic showdown.

Is this not the dream scenario? Toriyama giving the broad plot points, and others (Toei and Toyotaro) expanding on them?

Is Super not the ideal scenario, of a truly-collaborative effort between Toriyama, Toei, and Toyotaro, wherein Toriyama sets the general guideline of the arc and lays the foundations of the arc's storyline, and Toei and Toyotaro then expand from there?

[GhostEmperorX]

The prospect of whether something's good/enjoyable or not should by default be separate from who it was that penned it. And what should be considered is what they were going for in the first place.
As others have pointed out, there were original stories by Toei during the run of the original series that range from amazing to mediocre (depending on who you are and what you expected out of it, of course). Most even like the original Bardock special over the new take on the character attributed to Toriyama.
Proper crediting is important for sure, but it shouldn't necessarily be an arbiter of a product's quality. That said though, if there's people who want to check out now, I suppose that's fine.

Personally I'm not even following the new material all that much myself, just the original series run since I really didn't get to do it properly the first time around. So I guess I don't have that much of a stake in these particular discussions or what may be coming next.

[AliTheZombie13]

That weird subplot of the ToP where the other universes see Goku as a villain? Meaningless filler probably made by Toei. I doubt Toriyama cared about what the Furries of U9 (Irrelevant weaklings) think about Goku.

And this is exactly the reason why I don't care about "the true artistic vision of Toriyama."
Whereas Toriyama probably saw the ramifications of multiversal genocide of his story as "just another excuse for characters to punch each other", while at the same time creating a roster of hundreds of irrelevant characters that contribute nothing to the story, somebody at Toei thought about it, made up a whole concept around it, justified these characters' existence, and made the characters care and act accordingly, trying to fix the situation whereas the main characters just didn't care.

I don't know about you, but it was extremely jarring for me seeing nearly every main character in the ToP go, "Oh my god, we're going to get erased from existence if we lose? ... Meh!"

On one hand, we have someone else actually giving a damn about the story Toriyama proposed to them and exploring it, on the other, we have Toriyama going "Meh, nobody watches Dragon Ball for the plot anyway, just enjoy the dumb fight scenes!"

Is this the "artistic vision" you want Dragon Ball to be remembered by? Its storytelling quality reduced to the point of online mockery?
For his part, Toriyama didn't seem to have a problem when the people in charge, be it Toei or whoever, respected his work and did it justice, and commended them for doing a good job, and he criticized them when they screwed up. I think we as fans should do the same. There will be bad things, but there will also be good things.

[funrush]

Even when Toriyama wasn't as hands on (Super TV-only arcs, GT) he still designed the characters. Things are going to be different visually from now on probably.

[Hellspawn28]

Stuff is canon to whatever it fits in that continunity. GT is not canon to Super because it's impossible for the two to link each other in a singlar continuity. Dragon Ball has mutiple continunites with each of them having their own canon to me. It's like how series like Godzilla, Halloween, Alien & Predator, etc are by having their own continunity.

[funrush]

Canon is whatever you want it to be. My personal canon is the DB manga -> BoG/RoF -> rest of the Super anime -> Broly movie -> Moro/Granolah -> Super Hero -> current manga. I consider GT to be an alt universe. There are also a lot of different continuity nitpicks you can make your own canon over, like Bardock movie vs. Dragon Ball Minus etc. I could also include the Bojack movie in my canon since that slots right into the manga with no continuity problems. Or filler episodes like the Goku/Piccolo driving episode.

The only difference now is that people are going to be more likely exclude Post-Daima DB works from the canon because they won't have Toriyama's involvement (unless Toriyama wrote a bunch of stuff we don't know about).

Personally I am not opposed to including stuff Toriyama did not work on, the only reason I don't include GT is because the story contradicts Super's so harshly that I can't fathom them happening in the same timeline.

[Rhadon]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

Pretty much this i never understood why kids these days are screaming canon canon canon like who gives a shit? just have fun.

[nineko]

why kids these days are screaming canon canon canon like who gives a shit?

They just love cameras. Start going around screaming nikon nikon nikon and see what happens.

[Yuji]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

[sangofe]

Toriyama Dragon Ball ended in 1996 in the Boo arc. Everything following hasn't been 100% his own work anymore. I don't see what may follow as any different. Toriyama probably left behind a ton of scrapped designs and story ideas - if not in writing, then in conversation with Toyotaro and others. They'll be reused and expanded upon by animators and writers just like the rest of Super.

I dunno about detailed ideas, he used to come up with stuff on the spot. Although it's been said that they used to have meetings where he did come up with main story ideas and most were scrapped - maybe some of that will be expanded up on.

[tonysoprano300]

At best you can say "the original manga as published in weekly Shonen Jump from 1984 to 1995", but after that it's really not so clear cut.

That's where I'm at. The 1984-1995, Jaco, and Dragon Ball Minus (for better or worse) are canon. Everything else isn't.

By no means does that make the non-canon/quasi canon stuff bad.
.

The events of Heroes? The events of the other videogames like Xenoverse 2? Those are events that Toriyama did not plan to happen before the 28th Tournament. Therefore, they are not part of Toriyama's vision of the overall story and of what happened before the End of Z according to Toriyama.

Toriyama also didn't plan on literally any of the stuff from Super happening when he wrote the ending of his original manga in 1995. There was an era of peace after Majin Boo was defeated but Super said nope. Gohan retired from fighting and became a scholar by the 28th tournament but Super had him becoming a fighter again....twice. Goku still has an invested interest in Majin Boo's reincarnation which makes no sense after meeting Beerus, Whis, Hiit, Jiren, and especially Broli.

Super is much less "Toriyama's true vision" and more Toriyama half-heartedly getting involved in nostalgia cash grab because this shit is gonna happen anyways (as seen with Evolution, Yo Son Goku, Episode of Bardock, and the original planned BoG)

Super might as well be its own canon because it flat out cannot fit into where it's supposed to without hitting the reset button and giving everyone mass amnesia.

I wouldn’t call BOG a nostalgia cash grab, that film actually seemed interested in the expansion of the Dragon ball Universe. Id argue that the subsequent stuff that came after it is where DB lost its way and became less interested in trying to tell a story and more interested in spectacle.


Canon in general is something that should be understood as a baseline template for the story. For example Its important to know that Goku defeating Freeza on namek is canon.But yea outside of that, i don’t get the fixation on the details.

[tonysoprano300]

The 2010s represent such a massive shake-up for the Dragon Ball franchise and world.

The reveal of the Gods of Destruction and Angels? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there are 11 other Universes, with even greater Gods and mortals? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there is a Deity even greater than the Gods and Angels? And that he is a "tiny chibi type imp"? Massive shake-up.

DBS does not get enough appreciation for just how much it has expanded the Dragon Ball horizon, mostly for the better, and catapulted the Dragon Ball franchise into the next 10 years (again, mostly for the better). 10 years after BoG, Goku still hasn't surpassed Lord Beerus.

It remains to be seen if any other author or Toei will be able to create a massive shake-up for the franchise like BoG/DBS was in the 2010s.

But these aren’t used to tell a fun DB story, there is no adventure where Goku explores the DB multiverse, God ki is never expanded upon, and the story feels incredibly stagnant from one arc to the next.

Its stuck in a cycle where essentially a bad guy shows up then Goku and Vegeta fight him then they go back to training on Beerus’s planet. The characters don’t evolve, the status quo never changes and the series never feels like its moving in a serialized direction.

I will say BOG was a good film, probably the best DB film we’ve had in a while. But they didn’t take those concepts in a meaningful direction.

[FinalPilaf]

from what you say I guess stupidity runs wild throughout "fanbases".

If nothing else, you've certainly mastered the art of simply calling people with viewpoints other than your own "stupid" but doing it in that vicarious "probably technically not breaking any forum rules because I'm not mentioning individuals" way.

I'm probably not going to bother much with you, but I'll just say that since this is all fiction, it is in fact up to everyone to construct the percieved "realness" of that fiction by their own parameters, and up to everyone to place value on whatever they personally percieve as important when it comes to how much a certain piece of that fiction matter to them. Some might place high value on an individual minds' creations, others on whatever material the IP owners sanction as offical, and others still might choose that what matters to them is in fact non-offical fan-created content. To some DBZ Adridged is the only DB related canon worth caring about, and to others it might in fact even be their own Dragon Ball fan fiction.

[Shaddy]

We can't cleanly draw a line between what is and isn't part of Toriyama's artistic vision, because Dragon Ball has always been the product of multiple people to one extent or another. Obviously the original manga is the thing Toriyama had the most control over, so that's the part you should pay most attention to.

But for everything else, you're not looking at "canon" so much as taking logical extrapolations with regards to continuity. Dragon Ball Super is not a part of the original manga, but it follows it and contradicts less of it than, say, Dragon Ball GT. You can't place both these shows in one continuity, and only one of them is actively being continued by the forces behind Dragon Ball, and it's likely to stay that way.

The point is, obsessing over "intent" is not useful nearly as much as figuring out which things narratively work to construct a better story.

Which is why, for example, Dragon Ball Heroes allegedly existing as alternate timelines in "canon" doesn't mean we need to treat it as a real part of the narrative. Instead, we shoot it and anyone who likes it directly into the sun with a cannon .

[DefinitiveDubs]

Dragon Ball has no canon and never did. It's more of a western concept.

Just enjoy what you enjoy regardless of what anyone thinks.

I agree with this.

Too many people get caught up on "what's canon" rather than "what's good". If you don't like Super, then just don't watch it. And if you like the Toei-original movies, then that's fine too. I've seen people dismiss those as being trash just because Toriyama never worked on them, which is a disservice to what those movies do genuinely well. It's not like Toriyama hated them or thinks they're disrespectful.

I don't understand why fandoms make this out to be so much more complicated than that.

[Grimlock]

If nothing else, you've certainly mastered the art of simply calling people with viewpoints other than your own "stupid"

Not really. You don't see me calling people who like the recolor forms, who don't like what I like (and vice-versa), etc and etc, "stupid", for example. If you do see me doing that, I'd like you to provide a few evidences.

In this particular, very specific case, while people are entitled to ignore whatever that doesn't come from the original author/creator, I am entitled to have an opinion on that approach (oh, and I'm not calling people "stupid", I'm calling the way they prefer to treat this matter "stupid". You may want to rephrase that). Dragon Ball is a beautiful franchise, so why would someone simply want to ignore everything else is beyond me. And, using your previously mentioned Star Wars as another example, while I don't know about it, I'm willing to bet there are good non-George Lucas works that those people who elect to ignore them are missing, all because of some kind of ridiculous "prejudice" or whatever it is. Like DefinitiveDubs said above, there are people who will trash anything as soon as they learn that it wasn't made by the author/creator (and to those I'm not going to apologize). That said...

but doing it in that vicarious "probably technically not breaking any forum rules because I'm not mentioning individuals" way.

... It seems I struck a nerve. I can only assume it is because you are one of these folks who ignores everything not made by the author. While I can and will apologize if, for some reason, you felt personally offended by what I said, I stand by what I said. You shouldn't close your mind to other possibilities. To be stuck in a bubble will not do us any good. Just some advice, don't take it negatively or anything like that. It's a friendly one.

[SupremeKai25]

The 2010s represent such a massive shake-up for the Dragon Ball franchise and world.

The reveal of the Gods of Destruction and Angels? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there are 11 other Universes, with even greater Gods and mortals? Massive shake-up.

The reveal that there is a Deity even greater than the Gods and Angels? And that he is a "tiny chibi type imp"? Massive shake-up.

DBS does not get enough appreciation for just how much it has expanded the Dragon Ball horizon, mostly for the better, and catapulted the Dragon Ball franchise into the next 10 years (again, mostly for the better). 10 years after BoG, Goku still hasn't surpassed Lord Beerus.

It remains to be seen if any other author or Toei will be able to create a massive shake-up for the franchise like BoG/DBS was in the 2010s.

But these aren’t used to tell a fun DB story, there is no adventure where Goku explores the DB multiverse, God ki is never expanded upon, and the story feels incredibly stagnant from one arc to the next.

Its stuck in a cycle where essentially a bad guy shows up then Goku and Vegeta fight him then they go back to training on Beerus’s planet. The characters don’t evolve, the status quo never changes and the series never feels like its moving in a serialized direction.

I will say BOG was a good film, probably the best DB film we’ve had in a while. But they didn’t take those concepts in a meaningful direction.

Dragon Ball Super was never about adventure. Goku doesn't care about adventure in BoG, he cares about fighting the Lord of Destruction. Goku doesn't care about adventure at the end of BoG, he cares about challenging himself to new heights and reaching the level of Destruction.

Sidelining the ever-moving chase and struggle for the top-spot for "adventure" is unironically what Toei would do without Toriyama's supervision.

Super was just never meant to be an Adventure show and I don't know why some people insist that it should have had Adventure arcs. The show was never about that. Go back to BoG, no one ever says "oh boy, I can't wait to go explore those 11 universes!"

All Goku cares about is chasing the levels of the Gods, and every Super arc has been functional to this overall narrative (except Super Hero, but it was supposed to be a fun side stuff more than anything, a breathing room with a short timeskip, before all the chaos with Black Frieza goes down).