Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So is UE Vegeta meant to be much weaker than UI Goku? Vegeta seems to peak at True UI level back in Cereal (If even that), but seems weird for Vegeta to brag about beating Goku in their latest sparring when UI Goku would run circles around him. I remember a video with Toyotaro saying Goku and Vegeta were equally strong after UE's debut.

[QuakingStar]

So is UE Vegeta meant to be much weaker than UI Goku? Vegeta seems to peak at True UI level back in Cereal (If even that), but seems weird for Vegeta to brag about beating Goku in their latest sparring when UI Goku would run circles around him. I remember a video with Toyotaro saying Goku and Vegeta were equally strong after UE's debut.

Vegeta could not reach into UE's true power because he was also being affected by his mindset not being perfect for it during the fight. It's why he was saying he would work to master UE. I think proper UE is equal to proper UI in power at the least.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

So is UE Vegeta meant to be much weaker than UI Goku? Vegeta seems to peak at True UI level back in Cereal (If even that), but seems weird for Vegeta to brag about beating Goku in their latest sparring when UI Goku would run circles around him. I remember a video with Toyotaro saying Goku and Vegeta were equally strong after UE's debut.

Vegeta could not reach into UE's true power because he was also being affected by his mindset not being perfect for it during the fight. It's why he was saying he would work to master UE. I think proper UE is equal to proper UI in power at the least.

Right. Vegeta had a bit of a crisis too, trying to be like Beerus instead of being himself, but we don't see anything like True UE. Vegeta's attitude changes and I remember he tells Goku something like "I have figured out my Ultra Ego, why haven't you figured out your Ultra Instinct?", but he clearly didn't since he still acts like a dumbass letting himself get beat up for cheap power ups.

[QuakingStar]

Another thing I wanted to point out, is that it's possible that Saiyans suffer from the Hayflick Limit just like Humans and the "Saiyan Power" ability could also have it's own version of the Hayflick Limit. Vegeta when using UE and allowing himself to take more damage than he should could potentially screw himself over for good.

[DBZ Macky]

In line with the passing of the author, do you think the series will end before Beerus is ever surpassed by Goku and co. in the Manga? Would you be disappointed if that were the case? I personally couldn't care less since he was surpassed much earlier in the Anime but I'm curious to know what you guys think.

[Koitsukai]

Recently, Beerus said something about Goku surpassing him. While not an actual Chekhov's gun, it could be hinting towards something like it.
I was expecting that to happen in a Toriyama movie where UI would debut, but now I don't even know, and honestly, not sure if I care.

Probably, out of respect to the author, the people in charge will have Toriyama's main creation surpass Beerus. Or maybe there's a napkin somewhere written by Akira that says "Beerus will never be eclipsed", and that's what they'll kneel before.

[SupremeKai25]

I'd be fine with Super just ending. Make a final arc where Goku kills Black Frieza and finally beats 100% Beerus in a rematch, then wrap it all up with an EOZ mini-arc and call it a day.

Goku's story and Super are nearing the climax, the ever-moving goalpost that is Beerus will have to be surpassed in the near-future, it can't keep going on forever.

At this point, the Super storyline has been going on for 11 years. More than the Original run. It's time to wrap things up.

[ZombieVito]

I'd be fine with Super just ending. Make a final arc where Goku kills Black Frieza and finally beats 100% Beerus in a rematch, then wrap it all up with an EOZ mini-arc and call it a day.

Goku's story and Super are nearing the climax, the ever-moving goalpost that is Beerus will have to be surpassed in the near-future, it can't keep going on forever.

At this point, the Super storyline has been going on for 11 years. More than the Original run. It's time to wrap things up.

Agreed. Maybe Toriyama was working on the next movie and that's what deals with Freeza.

After that then just end it at EoZ.

[SupremeKai25]

I'd be fine with Super just ending. Make a final arc where Goku kills Black Frieza and finally beats 100% Beerus in a rematch, then wrap it all up with an EOZ mini-arc and call it a day.

Goku's story and Super are nearing the climax, the ever-moving goalpost that is Beerus will have to be surpassed in the near-future, it can't keep going on forever.

At this point, the Super storyline has been going on for 11 years. More than the Original run. It's time to wrap things up.

Agreed. Maybe Toriyama was working on the next movie and that's what deals with Freeza.

After that then just end it at EoZ.

The real question is how they'll redo the EoZ. I find it nigh-impossible that it will remain unchanged after all the developments of Super.

I could see Goku showing off UI in the final fight with Uub to tie it all together:



I certainly can't imagine Goku staying in Base form the entire time like the original EoZ, especially with Super pushing ahead Uub as a top-tier with enough power to shock Moro-arc Vegeta.

I expect the new EoZ to cement Uub as a UI-level fighter and a worthy successor to Goku. Cue the End credits.

[ZombieVito]

The real question is how they'll redo the EoZ. I find it nigh-impossible that it will remain unchanged after all the developments of Super.

I could see Goku showing off UI in the final fight with Uub to tie it all together:



I certainly can't imagine Goku staying in Base form the entire time like the original EoZ, especially with Super pushing ahead Uub as a top-tier with enough power to shock Moro-arc Vegeta.

I expect the new EoZ to cement Uub as a UI-level fighter and a worthy successor to Goku. Cue the End credits.

If Toriyama never let them know ahead of time if he was going to change EoZ then they won't touch anything.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

In line with the passing of the author, do you think the series will end before Beerus is ever surpassed by Goku and co. in the Manga? Would you be disappointed if that were the case? I personally couldn't care less since he was surpassed much earlier in the Anime but I'm curious to know what you guys think.

I think the plan was always for Goku to surpass him when the series ends, whenever that happens.

The real question for me is, can he ever surpass the people above Beerus? Not ending the series with Goku as the strongest, looking for even higher challenges, feels very wrong.

I certainly can't imagine Goku staying in Base form the entire time like the original EoZ, especially with Super pushing ahead Uub as a top-tier with enough power to shock Moro-arc Vegeta.

I expect the new EoZ to cement Uub as a UI-level fighter and a worthy successor to Goku. Cue the End credits.

I'd prefer for Goku to master all this power without transforming. That's sort of what happened in the original EoZ, and UI is the perfect chance to get rid of transformations.

They only need some really subtle changes (Like Bulma's age and why Piccolo and co. don't participate), but I wouldn't mind a whole new story. Now I really doubt they're gonna change anything out of respect.

[Miracles]

Should end with Beerus. This whole thing started because Beerus is the strongest entity in the universe [Only Whis is stated to be stronger], who was looking for a rival. No one ever surpassed Beerus in the movies, manga and anime anyway.

[The Monkey King]

No one ever surpassed Beerus in the movies,

Broly, Beast Gohan, Gogeta Blue, Cell Max and Orange Piccolo are all stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is not stronger in terms of raw power but is a better fighter than him.

The last stated strength level of Beerus was when Whis said SSJB Goku and Vegeta working together could match him in RoF.

Nothing contradicts the above, Goku himself says Broly is stronger than Beerus.

Broly > Blue Goku and Vegeta working as a team ~ Beerus

In Super Hero Beerus was scared when he saw Broly on his planet

manga

Jiren was stronger but then Beerus' power got retconned (again)

and anime anyway.

MUI Goku > Jiren > Belmod >= Beerus.

[Hugo Boss]

While I’m not entirely convinced (movie) Beerus was only quite as strong as Goku and Vegeta fighting as a team, more like close to Broly at full power, I can see why Gohan and Cell Max would be up there with this reasoning, but why Piccolo? Is he that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta even fighting as a team? Purely speaking about how the movie treated them.

[The Monkey King]

While I’m not entirely convinced (movie) Beerus was only quite as strong as Goku and Vegeta fighting as a team, more like close to Broly at full power, I can see why Gohan and Cell Max would be up there with this reasoning, but why Piccolo? Is he that much stronger than Goku and Vegeta even fighting as a team? Purely speaking about how the movie treated them.

Since Super Hero establishes that Gamma 1 & 2 = Goku and Vegeta in terms of power level. I figured it means Blue Goku and Vegeta as those were their strongest forms in DBS Broly.

I judged it from the "fight" between Gamma 2 and Orange Piccolo, wherein none of Gamma 2's attacks made Piccolo flinch and then Piccolo proceeded to one shot him.

From that I figured that even if Gamma 1 and 2 attacked Piccolo at the same time he would still win with ease. But then again Gamma 2's sacrifice attack could do considerable damage to O Piccolo.

Therefore a fight between Orange Piccolo vs Blue Goku and Vegeta should likely be a moderately easy win for Piccolo.

[Miracles]

No one ever surpassed Beerus in the movies,

Broly, Beast Gohan, Gogeta Blue, Cell Max and Orange Piccolo are all stronger than Beerus.

Jiren is not stronger in terms of raw power but is a better fighter than him.

The last stated strength level of Beerus was when Whis said SSJB Goku and Vegeta working together could match him in RoF.

Nothing contradicts the above, Goku himself says Broly is stronger than Beerus.

Broly > Blue Goku and Vegeta working as a team ~ Beerus

In Super Hero Beerus was scared when he saw Broly on his planet

manga

Jiren was stronger but then Beerus' power got retconned (again)

and anime anyway.

MUI Goku > Jiren > Belmod >= Beerus.

Factually false. Beerus came into the Super series [movie, anime and manga] as the strongest in the universe from BoG all the way to Super Hero. Including stronger than fusion with Whis noted to be stronger only.

[SupremeKai25]

How do some people still think Goku surpassed Beerus?

Guys, Goku surpassing Beerus is literally the equivalent of Naruto becoming Hokage.

The entirety of Super since 2013 is tailored around Goku's chase to surpass Beerus' level.

Beerus didn't get surpassed midway through the story LMFAO.

Goku vs. Beerus will be the final fight of the entire Super Revival storyline. It started with Goku vs. Beerus, it will end with Goku vs. Beerus.

[QuakingStar]

Goku never saw Beerus full power or him using Ultra Ego. The highest bit of power he saw in the anime was in BoG which turned out to be Beerus lying about the percent he was using anyway to which ONLY Whis knew Beerus was lying, in the manga it was in the GoD Tournament but they were not fighting to kill and Beerus was relying on his imperfect Ultra Instinct technique instead which btw did not grant him a transformation to power up.

Beerus also never used Ultra Ego in front of them all except for the one time in front of Vegeta and this happened off-screen. We find out that Vegeta learned Ultra Ego by watching Beerus use the technique and copied it for himself. Beerus even says "If you see an interesting Technique you should copy it for yourself" or something along those lines.

So Goku and most likely Shin have never seen Beerus full power, nor him using Ultra Ego on top of that.

Then there is the moment when Beerus is about to casually end Planet Moro showing that Moro even at that state does not even begin to approach him.

Only Whis would know what Beerus full power is like.

This is why I say that Beerus is still above SSB Fusion.

[Mr Baggins]

Beerus doesn't have Ultra Ego. Wagamama no Goku'i is a pun that Vegeta made up to mock Ultra Instinct, using a limit break form to harness Beerus's technique. For Goku it was how the Angels move and Angel mentality, for Vegeta it's GoD Hakai and GoD mentality.

It's also worth noting that we specifically saw them go all-out in the Universe Survival arc. You're not going to see any God of Destruction "use Ultra Ego" more than you'd see an Angel transform to use Ultra Instinct because that's just their natural state. The Saiyans are merely tapping into things above their paygrade through the use of transformations, as has always been the case.

To topic: I'm mostly in agreement with Miracles that Beerus isn't meant to be surpassed by Goku and Vegeta individually until the end of the story. I don't think this idea applies to the blue fusions – the series wouldn't consistently suggest otherwise if it did – but since fusion goes against their principles, it doesn't count and we'll likely never see them again anyway.

[QuakingStar]

and this is why that doesn't quite make complete sense. Vegeta has seen Destruction multiple times. Goku used Destruction while in SSB so Beerus wasn't talking about Destruction when telling Vegeta to copy whatever technique he SEES. If Beerus is always in UE then there is no visual technique to activate or see for Vegeta to copy. GoD's are using their own unique God Ki type all the time, which is why there have been people who knew from sensing that it's the energy of a God of Destruction.

Beerus just like with when he uses imperfect UI would likely not show an aura color change or big physical change but his ki would likely shoot up when using UE, and Vegeta would recognize that he used something and be smart enough to know it was a technique since Beerus literally told him to copy whatever technique he sees. Otherwise Vegeta didn't see shit and there was no technique he hasn't already seen to copy.