The end of "Akira Toriyama canon"

[JulieYBM]

I mean, it's nebulous as to whether or not the original 1984 comic was 'necessary', but whatever. I think Dragon Ball Super's contributions are important, although I don't think those contributions (female characters, queerness that is a bit more than just subtext) are going to be important to your average 30-something cishet white guy.

[AliTheZombie13]

I mean, it's nebulous as to whether or not the original 1984 comic was 'necessary', but whatever. I think Dragon Ball Super's contributions are important, although I don't think those contributions (female characters, queerness that is a bit more than just subtext) are going to be important to your average 30-something cishet white guy.

I dig that they tried to fix up their act when it comes to those characters (Hey, I'm gay myself), but even if I love Whis, it didn't really justify 131 episodes of poor storytelling IMO. Maybe my opinion on Super would be more positive if it didn't have 15-30-60-episode long arcs filled to the brim with "nothing." Honestly, no arc of Super ever felt like it needed more than a 2h long movie to be told, except maybe Goku Black.

[JulieYBM]

I mean, it's nebulous as to whether or not the original 1984 comic was 'necessary', but whatever. I think Dragon Ball Super's contributions are important, although I don't think those contributions (female characters, queerness that is a bit more than just subtext) are going to be important to your average 30-something cishet white guy.

I dig that they tried to fix up their act when it comes to those characters (Hey, I'm gay myself), but it didn't really justify 131 episodes of poor storytelling IMO. Maybe my opinion on Super would be more positive if it didn't have 15-30-60-episode long arcs filled to the brim with "nothing." Honestly, no arc of Super ever felt like it needed more than a 2h long movie to be told, except maybe Goku Black.

I absolutely believe Dragon Ball Super could easily be better, but I don't really much see a point to discussions like "it's existence isn't justifiable" because there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. I don't have to think about it—or any part of the franchise, for that matter. Albeit, Dragon Ball Super is a series I want to give a proper re-watch at some point—I've been too busy being annoying and bisexual to watch it since the original broadcast—but I also think it's existence (well, outside of that fucking Muten Roushi episode) is mostly harmless, and there's solid work to be built off of in there. It's imperfections are a given, the next question is, how could they do better (and I feel like 90% of the problems could have been solved with actual planning for both the production and the story itself, but we all know how Toriyama is about the latter).

I also agree that the story arcs are way too long for the amount of content in them. Lest they just straight up actually provided meatier character arcs for the characters, I definitely think that the Beers, Golden Freeza, Champa and Gokuu Black arcs should have only been 7-8 episodes each, and even that's pushing it if they don't flesh out the characters' journies from A-to-B. The Gokuu Black arc basically screams for a nice little 160-180 minute queer thriller film.

I think the Tournament of Power could have worked if it had just fuckin' cut between the fights and flashbacks to each characters' reasons for fighting, instead of that weird linear approach they attempted, too. Only being 26 episodes long would've helped, too, but alas, here we are.

Side note: I can't believe they didn't just bite the bullet and make each episode a full minute of the Tournament of Power long. My OCD is killing me here.

[SupremeKai25]

It's not that I'm opposed to new DB content, I like BoG (movie version) and Super Hero.

While I do enjoy both of these as well for the most part and think they're the only revival material strong enough to justify the revival's existence at all, my core position has always been "We never needed more Dragon Ball" so even taking those works into account, I wouldn't feel like much of value would be lost if the revival never happened.

That's where I stand. I liked the revival era in general, but we didn't need it and I would be fine if it never existed.

Did we need the Cell and Buu saga?

How they are not seen as "milking"?

Actually, they were before 2013 (I can pull up the old threads criticizing these arcs). What changed that the Cell and Buu saga are no longer seen as shameless milking?

I mean, it's nebulous as to whether or not the original 1984 comic was 'necessary', but whatever. I think Dragon Ball Super's contributions are important, although I don't think those contributions (female characters, queerness that is a bit more than just subtext) are going to be important to your average 30-something cishet white guy.

Actually, Caulifla/Kale/Kefla are very popular characters, which is not surprising. They are the first Super Saiyan girls.

But while Super gave us the first Super Saiyan girls, GT introduced two Saiyan girls (Pan and Bulla) who were completely useless and wasted, not even being allowed to go Super Saiyan.

Meanwhile, Kefla served as a major antagonist in the Tournament of Power and even challenged Goku in his super duper shiny new form:




The character of Kefla/Caulifla/Kale was a much-needed breath of fresh air and a very important contribution to the overall franchise.

[Koitsukai]

Julie has a point, once you get the necessity genie out of the bottle everything is fair game.
I, for one, wonder if there was a need for Goku's heart to fail him, for time travel, for Yamcha to be turned into a cheater just because, for Bulma to crap all over her friends by dating their killer... I'd say no, but I still enjoyed that arc and those developments, even though I don't think the story or the audience needed it that.

Same for GT, did we need to see chibi Goku, again, at the expense of the rest of the cast... again? nope, but I liked those adventures anyway.
Was SS4 Goku a thing that happened out of need? Was Goku incomplete without it?

Shit, I guess there are some that wonder if we actually needed Goku to be a fucking alien, fighting people on other rocks and fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy... everything was quite fun, "relatable" and entertaining when he was just a weird feral boy fighting in tournaments for the sake of it, and not the saviour of the universe.

There are several, better arguments to shit on DBS and other parts of the series rather than the necessity one.

[JulieYBM]

Actually, Caulifla/Kale/Kefla are very popular characters, which is not surprising. They are the first Super Saiyan girls.

I'm not really referring to their popularity in general, I'm referring to their importance as characters, which I don't expect your average cishet guy to understand unless their bisexual wife is constantly talking about which fictional female character is her wife, or how two women in a series are in love, even though it's never 'said' in the text. They're going to see female Saiyans and go, "Oh, they're hot! Also they're fighting!" and that's going to be the end of it.

Well, unless those same cishet guys are weird Men's Rights Activists who get on the internet to complain about how Dragon Ball is WOKE now because women get to be buff, queer, and have green hair and pronouns.

[AliTheZombie13]

I absolutely believe Dragon Ball Super could easily be better, but I don't really much see a point to discussions like "it's existence isn't justifiable" because there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. I don't have to think about it—or any part of the franchise, for that matter. Albeit, Dragon Ball Super is a series I want to give a proper re-watch at some point—I've been too busy being annoying and bisexual to watch it since the original broadcast—but I also think it's existence (well, outside of that fucking Muten Roushi episode) is mostly harmless, and there's solid work to be built off of in there. It's imperfections are a given, the next question is, how could they do better (and I feel like 90% of the problems could have been solved with actual planning for both the production and the story itself, but we all know how Toriyama is about the latter).

I also agree that the story arcs are way too long for the amount of content in them. Lest they just straight up actually provided meatier character arcs for the characters, I definitely think that the Beers, Golden Freeza, Champa and Gokuu Black arcs should have only been 7-8 episodes each, and even that's pushing it if they don't flesh out the characters' journies from A-to-B. The Gokuu Black arc basically screams for a nice little 160-180 minute queer thriller film.

I think the Tournament of Power could have worked if it had just fuckin' cut between the fights and flashbacks to each characters' reasons for fighting, instead of that weird linear approach they attempted, too. Only being 26 episodes long would've helped, too, but alas, here we are.

Side note: I can't believe they didn't just bite the bullet and make each episode a full minute of the Tournament of Power long. My OCD is killing me here.

I can give an opinion based off another show I'm rewatching right now: Yu Yu Hakusho.

Right now, I'm on episode 30, and it's amazing how, for roughly the duration of two arcs in Super, YYH managed to:

- Build their world
- Develop their characters
- Tell several colorful diversified stories, both self-contained and overarching
- Successfully create tournament and "arcade ladder" arcs that I didn't hate for being extremely predictable
- Make the superhero team feel like an actual team and not just "Here's the two rival guys, and here's the other 8 Cannon Fodders!"
- Make every single event that happened so far feel like it mattered in the grand scheme of things

Even if Dragon Ball couldn't achieve all of that because of its format, I feel like a lot of issues in Super would be easily solved with proper pacing. It's not like Super is an anime adaptation waiting for a manga to be finished to be able to go forward, there's no excuse for so little having happened in so long.

[AliTheZombie13]

Did we need the Cell and Buu saga?

How they are not seen as "milking"?

Actually, they were before 2013 (I can pull up the old threads criticizing these arcs). What changed that the Cell and Buu saga are no longer seen as shameless milking?

We didn't, but the author wanted to make those.
There's the big difference.

Actually, Caulifla/Kale/Kefla are very popular characters, which is not surprising. They are the first Super Saiyan girls.

But while Super gave us the first Super Saiyan girls, GT introduced two Saiyan girls (Pan and Bulla) who were completely useless and wasted, not even being allowed to go Super Saiyan.

You know, I take offense to that. I have Pan in my avatar, after all.
I'm not at all bothered that Pan didn't get the Super Special Race X Whatever Transformation #100, that by that point in the franchise had become a joke (read: Trunks and Goten).

Say whatever you want about Bra, I could care less about her. But Pan gave me an actual character, a little girl who just wanted to help and be treated with respect, but didn't know how. Got way over her head, mistreated her teammates, nearly died as a result, only to be saved by said teammates, realized the errors of her ways and strived to be a better person.

And I find all that infinitely more engaging than... "Here's Goku and Broly, but FEMALE!!!! "

[JulieYBM]

I absolutely believe Dragon Ball Super could easily be better, but I don't really much see a point to discussions like "it's existence isn't justifiable" because there's no putting that genie back in the bottle. I don't have to think about it—or any part of the franchise, for that matter. Albeit, Dragon Ball Super is a series I want to give a proper re-watch at some point—I've been too busy being annoying and bisexual to watch it since the original broadcast—but I also think it's existence (well, outside of that fucking Muten Roushi episode) is mostly harmless, and there's solid work to be built off of in there. It's imperfections are a given, the next question is, how could they do better (and I feel like 90% of the problems could have been solved with actual planning for both the production and the story itself, but we all know how Toriyama is about the latter).

I also agree that the story arcs are way too long for the amount of content in them. Lest they just straight up actually provided meatier character arcs for the characters, I definitely think that the Beers, Golden Freeza, Champa and Gokuu Black arcs should have only been 7-8 episodes each, and even that's pushing it if they don't flesh out the characters' journies from A-to-B. The Gokuu Black arc basically screams for a nice little 160-180 minute queer thriller film.

I think the Tournament of Power could have worked if it had just fuckin' cut between the fights and flashbacks to each characters' reasons for fighting, instead of that weird linear approach they attempted, too. Only being 26 episodes long would've helped, too, but alas, here we are.

Side note: I can't believe they didn't just bite the bullet and make each episode a full minute of the Tournament of Power long. My OCD is killing me here.

I can give an opinion based off another show I'm rewatching right now: Yu Yu Hakusho.

Right now, I'm on episode 30, and it's amazing how, for roughly the duration of two arcs in Super, YYH managed to:

- Build their world
- Develop their characters
- Tell several colorful diversified stories, both self-contained and overarching
- Successfully create tournament and "arcade ladder" arcs that I didn't hate for being extremely predictable
- Make the superhero team feel like an actual team and not just "Here's the two rival guys, and here's the other 8 Cannon Fodders!"
- Make every single event that happened so far feel like it mattered in the grand scheme of things

Even if Dragon Ball couldn't achieve all of that because of its format, I feel like a lot of issues in Super would be easily solved with proper pacing. It's not like Super is an anime adaptation waiting for a manga to be finished to be able to go forward, there's no excuse for so little having happened in so long.

I definitely agree. Yuu Yuu Hakusho is one of my favorite animated series. Those first thirty episodes do such a good job of setting up the world through continuing threads weaved throughout smaller arcs. I think it's a great series to use as a model...well, barring the 14 year old main character sexually assaulting a trans woman, and then saying she's half-assing being a woman by keeping her penis. One can do a lot in thirty episodes, and I think it's a terrible shame that the manner in which some of these shounen battle series adapt their comics is a real shame—especially when it transfers over to a series like Dragon Ball Super, which was largely based only on story notes, rather than a comic is a set sense of pacing and such.

The smaller arcs format also really helped create what felt like real progress for the series. The characters' bonds were already so strong by the time the Dark Tournament rolled around, because we had so many finished stories.

Fuck, I need to re-watch Yuu Yuu Hakusho. The episodes storyboarded and directed by Shinbou Akiyuki with Wakabayashi Atsuhi as their animation supervisor are just so goddamned good. The whole series in general is good, though. It just goes to show what you can accomplish with a good production environment adapting a comic by a guy who actually likes telling stories and doing something cool, without cutting his own legs off to softball a series for a perceived immature audience incapable of appreciating something more substantial.

[SupremeKai25]

We didn't, but the author wanted to make those.
There's the big difference.

He probably wanted to make those because the Editors told him that Dragon Ball was too popular to end at Namek saga.

So how is it any different from Super?

The very quote you posted above shows us that Toriyama ultimately chose not to leave Dragon Ball.

Say whatever you want about Bra, I could care less about her. But Pan gave me an actual character, a little girl who just wanted to help and be treated with respect, but didn't know how. Got way over her head, mistreated her teammates, nearly died as a result, only to be saved by said teammates, realized the errors of her ways and strived to be a better person.

And I find all that infinitely more engaging than... "Here's Goku and Broly, but FEMALE!!!! "

Have you actually watched the Tournament of Power? Because Caulifla and Kale have a much more complex character arc than just "Female Goku and Female Broly lol".

[AliTheZombie13]

He probably wanted to make those because the Editors told him that Dragon Ball was too popular to end at Namek saga.
So how is it any different from Super?
The very quote you posted above shows us that Toriyama ultimately chose not to leave Dragon Ball.

We got actual evidence Toriyama didn't want to make another Dragon Ball, he drew himself declaring loud and clear he didn't want to make another Dragon Ball, and only came back because he didn't like what other people were doing with his story.
Meanwhile, there is no evidence editorial push forced him to continue after Namek.

Either way, I don't like those arcs anyway, so it doesn't make that much of a difference for me.
So, assuming you're right, neither Super nor those arcs needed to exist. Happy? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Say whatever you want about Bra, I could care less about her. But Pan gave me an actual character, a little girl who just wanted to help and be treated with respect, but didn't know how. Got way over her head, mistreated her teammates, nearly died as a result, only to be saved by said teammates, realized the errors of her ways and strived to be a better person.

And I find all that infinitely more engaging than... "Here's Goku and Broly, but FEMALE!!!! "

Have you actually watched the Tournament of Power? Because Caulifla and Kale have a much more complex character arc than just "Female Goku and Female Broly lol".

I did. From what little I remember, Caulifla was just excited about fighting, but Kale was timid and kept worrying all the time about her. It came to a climax where Kale turned into Female!Broly, and Caulifla made her calm down. I think it's implied they're in love with each other?

I am yet to rewatch Super, but while I thought their relationship was sweet, everything else about them rubbed me off. But this is more a consequence of the ToP characters having little personality, motivation or goals other than "Let's fight, because fighting is fun What's this? We'll be erased from existence if we lose? ... MEH!! I don't care, all I care is about FIGHTING!!!! "

[tonysoprano300]

Julie has a point, once you get the necessity genie out of the bottle everything is fair game.
I, for one, wonder if there was a need for Goku's heart to fail him, for time travel, for Yamcha to be turned into a cheater just because, for Bulma to crap all over her friends by dating their killer... I'd say no, but I still enjoyed that arc and those developments, even though I don't think the story or the audience needed it that.

Same for GT, did we need to see chibi Goku, again, at the expense of the rest of the cast... again? nope, but I liked those adventures anyway.
Was SS4 Goku a thing that happened out of need? Was Goku incomplete without it?

Shit, I guess there are some that wonder if we actually needed Goku to be a fucking alien, fighting people on other rocks and fulfilling an ancient alien prophecy... everything was quite fun, "relatable" and entertaining when he was just a weird feral boy fighting in tournaments for the sake of it, and not the saviour of the universe.

There are several, better arguments to shit on DBS and other parts of the series rather than the necessity one.

All I can do is speak for myself of course, but generally when I think about whether something fits the criteria of being "necessary" I'm usually trying to determine if the story is being pushed forward and if the characters are being explored/developed . So if we're talking about the Cell arc for example, I know that there are huge developements. Goku dies and opts to live with King Kai in the afterlife, Gohan finally learns how to tap into his hidden potential and steps up as earths protector, Piccolo merges with Kami, and Dende is the new guardian of the earth. You can even argue that the Cell arc serves to finally complete Gohans character arc dating all the way back to the Saiyan saga. These things have a tangible effect on the series moving forward, and the next arc has to take it into account.

But if I'm watching a dragon ball story where the characters arent being explored and the status quo is stagnant and the story isnt being progressed in any way then...it feels pointless. Its like the equivalent of watching the "Super Android 13" film, a bad guy shows up then everybody fights then he is defeated, the end. What changed in terms of the characters or the status quo? nothing much. Theres nothing wrong with watching DB purely for those elements but I guess it just comes across as far more episodic then it ever did before.

In a story with a serialized structure, you tend to make more content because you hope to fulfill something in the way of the elements I mentioned before. Like if I'm watching a new season of Breaking Bad, I expect that the chararcters are going to be further explored and that the story is going go through pretty large developments.

I wont say it shouldnt exist, many people clearly enjoy it and maybe thats enough.

[AliTheZombie13]

He probably wanted to make those because the Editors told him that Dragon Ball was too popular to end at Namek saga.
So how is it any different from Super?
The very quote you posted above shows us that Toriyama ultimately chose not to leave Dragon Ball.

I must say this: Despite our seemingly heated discussion here, I don't judge you for liking Super.
You like what you like, and nothing me or you or anybody else says here is going to wipe Super out of existence or make you like it less.
It's okay for you to like it and defend it, even if I don't think highly of it.
I don't mean any of the things I say here as an insult to you personally, just in case you ever feel like such.

[JulieYBM]

I did. From what little I remember, Caulifla was just excited about fighting, but Kale was timid and kept worrying all the time about her. It came to a climax where Kale turned into Female!Broly, and Caulifla made her calm down. I think it's implied they're in love with each other?

I am yet to rewatch Super, but while I thought their relationship was sweet, everything else about them rubbed me off. But this is more a consequence of the ToP characters having little personality, motivation or goals other than "Let's fight, because fighting is fun What's this? We'll be erased from existence if we lose? ... MEH!! I don't care, all I care is about FIGHTING!!!! "

Kale begins the arc with no self-confidence, and that manifests in her assuming a Super Saiyan form akin to Broli's Full-Power Super Saiyan form. Kale's lack of self-confidence and insecurity erupts and becomes an issue during the Tournament of Power when she realizes that Caulifla is more interesting in battling Son Gokuu, but it is after learning mid-battle the fact that Caulifla does indeed recognize her that Kale is able to confidently gain control of her power, and she assumes a slightly less large-sized Super Saiyan form, which I think is actually recognized as being Super Saiyan 2 in ancillary media, but don't take my word for it. That's a hell of a run on sentence, but you get the gist.

Anyway, their arc culminates with them having a ton of gay sex (Potara merging) and fighting everyone's favorite silver fox DILF, Son Gokuu.

Kale really isn't like either version of Broli, and I think that a lot folks tend to miss that, which does a disservice to her.

[MasenkoHA]

Kale really isn't like either version of Broli, and I think that a lot folks tend to miss that, which does a disservice to her.

Yeah, I actually give a shit about Kale

[JulieYBM]

Kale really isn't like either version of Broli, and I think that a lot folks tend to miss that, which does a disservice to her.

Yeah, I actually give a shit about Kale

"Shy Sapphic girl doesn't know how to get her hot punk gang leader's attention" is simultaneously the cutest and most relatable thing ever. As much as I think Dragon Ball Z Broli is sexy in his own goofy way, this is a story with a character arc that ties together the two things queer women love most: queer romance and beating the shit out of people.

Kale and Caulifla are good starts, and absolutely something that the production crew should be encouraged to take further and develop more of.

[AliTheZombie13]

Kale really isn't like either version of Broli, and I think that a lot folks tend to miss that, which does a disservice to her.

Yeah, I actually give a shit about Kale

I don't mean her personality, I mean her transformation/looks, which the staff itself has already admitted was based off Classic Broly, and they explicitly call her "Female Broly". Blame them.

[JulieYBM]

Kale really isn't like either version of Broli, and I think that a lot folks tend to miss that, which does a disservice to her.

Yeah, I actually give a shit about Kale

I don't mean her personality, I mean her transformation/looks, which the staff itself has already admitted was based off Classic Broly, and they explicitly call her "Female Broly". Blame them.

For the record, I wasn't referring to you at all with my post, that was just me referring to a general sentiment that I've seen over the past seven years.

Anyhoo, Nagamine, you're killing me.

[SupremeKai25]

He probably wanted to make those because the Editors told him that Dragon Ball was too popular to end at Namek saga.
So how is it any different from Super?
The very quote you posted above shows us that Toriyama ultimately chose not to leave Dragon Ball.

I must say this: Despite our seemingly heated discussion here, I don't judge you for liking Super.
You like what you like, and nothing me or you or anybody else says here is going to wipe Super out of existence or make you like it less.
It's okay for you to like it and defend it, even if I don't think highly of it.
I don't mean any of the things I say here as an insult to you personally, just in case you ever feel like such.

I'm not saying that you have no validity to criticize Super, I'm just saying that the avenue you chose, "Super shouldn't exist and is unnecessary", is pointless.

Because, by that same vein, you can argue that the Cell and Buu saga are unnecessary too.

It was unnecessary for the story to continue after Namek saga. Goku finally became the Super Saiyan of legend, avenged his people, and freed the Universe from the most powerful and evil tyrant. Done, Story finished. Do we need storylines after this?

The Android saga is just milking the brand. The idea that Dr. Gero could create a bunch of androids who are exponentially stronger than Frieza is the first time power-creep went over the limit. How funny that people complain about the existence of Hit/Jiren/U6 Saiyans, and all the other strong guys introduced in Super, but are willing to ignore the nonsense of two random punks being stronger than the Emperor Frieza.

I'm not judging you for criticizing Super, I criticize the Manga all the time, but I do say that it is pointless to complain about Super milking the franchise. The franchise was already being milked in the 1990s with the yearly Toei movies which are a just reskin of "Goku fights strong guy, Goku gets mad and activates transformation, Goku kills strong guy".

And when I talk about "Nostalgia", I am not saying that ALL the criticism for Super narrows down to nostalgia, but I know that there is nostalgia involved, because I have seen all the criticism that was levied against the Cell and Buu saga in the past, and most of that criticism is now applied exclusively to Super.

Stuff like "the protagonists being dumb", that was used in the past to criticize the Cell saga and Buu saga, now it is used exclusively to criticize Goku forgetting the Mafuba seal against Zamasu.

Stuff like "the asspulls and retcons", that was used in the past to criticize the Cell saga and Buu saga, now it is used exclusively to criticize Caulifla for getting Super Saiyan so easily (we'll just ignore Goten and Trunks).

In other words, both DBZ and GT got a popularity boost with the release of Super, because there is a form of recency bias that makes people latch onto the latest product for criticism.

I am yet to rewatch Super, but while I thought their relationship was sweet, everything else about them rubbed me off. But this is more a consequence of the ToP characters having little personality, motivation or goals other than "Let's fight, because fighting is fun What's this? We'll be erased from existence if we lose? ... MEH!! I don't care, all I care is about FIGHTING!!!! "
Top

Simple, Super is much closer to the whimsical nature of Dragon Ball than the Cell saga.

The Cell saga has pretty much none of the fun and light-hearted stuff that distinguish Dragon Ball, it's overly edgy and serious.

Meanwhile, Super is MUCH closer to the roots of Dragon Ball in terms of being a whimsical show where fighters just want to have a fun brawl and show-off their martial skills.

That is why you have people saying that the latest chapter is the perfect conclusion to Super. Because there's nothing better for Dragon Ball than a fun brawl.

The fighters do care that the Universes get erased, that is why they are constantly being pushed to higher heights of power, to overcome their opponents. The stakes are that high. The difference is that they simply don't wallow in their misery and are not overly edgy and sentimental like the Cell saga.

[GhostEmperorX]

The franchise was already being milked in the 1990s with the yearly Toei movies which are a just reskin of "Goku fights strong guy, Goku gets mad and activates transformation, Goku kills strong guy".

True, 13 movies within the run time of the Z series (as well as certain other areas) is unquestionably milking. It reached the point where there was more focus on said movies than the series proper itself for certain stretches.
It's like, the moment "Z" got attached to the anime rebrand, it was their ticket to making an avalanche of side content like never before.