The reason Goku stayed dead that no one talks about

[TheUltimateVegito]

I think we can agree that Goku staying dead at the end of the Cell arc added complexity to his character via his multiple reasons for doing so. It began his desire to build the next generation, and his fear of attracting more enemies to earth as well as emphasizing his desire to fight strong opponents but wanting to find a balance between that and preventing enemies from posing a danger. It's great stuff. But there's a nuanced reason behind his decision to stay dead that I don't see anyone mention - His Saiyan Nature.

Didn't Goku tell Gohan that one of his reasons for staying dead is that he believes Gohan is more reliable than him? This proves that his Saiyan nature being this uncontrollable part of himself that put others at risk is something that bothered Goku and he wanted to find a solution to it which he found in Gohan and staying dead. Remember how guilty he felt when Piccolo told him off for how he handled the Gohan vs Cell situation? That guilt is one of the reasons why he decided to stay dead, because his Saiyan nature made him blinded by the idea of providing a fair fight, a mistake that he fears he would repeat again. One of the main aspects of Goku's character is that he can put fighting over what appears best for the universe at the moment, as shown by him sparing Vegeta and letting the Androids be completed because he wants to fight them e.t.c.

Although Goku is pure of heart, he evolved from a warrior race that didn't evolve to feel compassion but to care more for the fighting aspect of things which drastically altered his way of viewing situations such as Gohan vs Cell. Why Goku wasn't as compassionate as expected for someone pure of heart, despite comprehending human morals, is because Saiyans like Goku aren't capable of that compassion. Goku's purity is his pure Saiyan nature (unless purity is defined differently in Japanese but I don't know much Japanese). Earth isn't made for Goku and he realized this.

Gohan was more reliable than Goku because, unlike Goku, he won't spare villains or give them time to be at their fullest for the sake of having a challenge. Also, Gohan did learn from toying around with Cell to never give evils such as Cell the chance to cause a major disaster again, something Goku cannot do due to his pure Saiyan desires. Gohan said it himself that he's glad Cell is back because he can correct his mistake and kill Cell the way he was supposed to. In short, Gohan not being a fighter at heart was made him a better protector than Goku, who was a fighter at heart.

Hopefully you can see now that Goku's Saiyan nature was a key reason for him deciding to stay dead. Making there 4 reasons for Goku staying dead: Attracting foes, Gohan being stronger than him, wanting to fight strong guys and his Saiyan nature being a risk. This did make him a character complex didn't it? It's also why I think it would've been the perfect place to end Goku's character.

[MasenkoHA]

Why do I feel like I've heard this song before?

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[TheUltimateVegito]

Why do I feel like I've heard this song before?

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Just trying to spread the word since no one still talks about it. Maybe I should upload a YouTube video about it.

[MasenkoHA]

I feel like you've spread the word enough King. Our Lord and Savior Goku died for our sins. In his name we pray "Ossu Ora Goku!"

[Cure Dragon 255]

Why do I feel like I've heard this song before?

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Give them credit, this is at least a more interesting topic than "SSJ2 Gohan can sneeze and destroy the entire universe" power level talk

[GhostEmperorX]

That's... a very low bar, to say the least.
Here we have the same player from the same topic from not too many moons ago.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Attracting foes

Which was not a bad reason for his decision.

Gohan being stronger than him

Sure, but that was bound to not last since fighting was never a priority for Gohan.

wanting to fight strong guys

I think this was Goku's main motivating factor

his Saiyan nature being a risk

Maybe, but Goku was clearly open to returning to Earth eventually. He was happy to come back for the 25th Tenkaichi Budōkai, likely for old times sake competing in a tournament and had no hesitation about settling back down when Elder Kai granted him a life.

In any case I think he realised throwing Gohan out in the ring expecting his hidden powers to come out was a foolish mistake (and the only major point I'll agree with the "Goku is a terrible father" brigade about) and not one he'd be likely to make again. The look of shock on his face tells me he realised then and there he can't let his saiyan bias blind him to who his son is.

[SupremeKai25]

So Goku is basically the Saviour who "died for our sins"?

The Cell saga is so funny, it's not even Dragon Ball. It's Naruto. So edgy, corny, melodramatic, and sanctimonious that saga is. Boy am I glad that Super has nothing in common with the Cell saga!

If Goku is supposed to be a true neutral protagonist who is obsessed with battle and the thrill of fighting, how come he is suddenly this pure and noble saviour who dies for our sins, so that the Earth will be at peace forever? Why does Goku care? If he truly is a battle-obsessed freak, why does he want to die? Why wouldn't he want to invite strong enemies? Shouldn't someone who lives fighting dislike the idea of perpetual peace? That doesn't make sense.

And isn't it funny how the Majin Buu saga pretty much invalidated the entire ending of the Cell saga?

I mean, if the point is that Goku invites evildoers, then that point is invalidated by Babidi and co. invading even though Goku is dead. The same happened in Future Trunks timeline and Goku was dead for 30 or so years by that point.

If the point is that Gohan is a better saviour because he learned not to play with his food, then that is also invalidated by Gohan toying with Super Buu and also forgetting how to put on an earring. Oh, and also it's Goku who once again saves the Universe. So much for that "Gohan is the New Saviour" plot point from the Cell saga.

[super michael]

After Cell defeat, Gohan stopped training, that is why he wasn't prepared for the new villains in the Buu Saga.

Goku wasn't the target in the Buu Saga, the target was Gohan. They were looking to absorb his energy.


Gohan plays too much in his fight, against Dabura and Fat Buu he didn't turn SSJ2.
Against Super Buu he didn't use any ki amplifier technique like the Kamehameha, only hand to hand combat.

[Koitsukai]

Gohan was more reliable than Goku because, unlike Goku, he won't spare villains or give them time to be at their fullest for the sake of having a challenge. Also, Gohan did learn from toying around with Cell to never give evils such as Cell the chance to cause a major disaster again, something Goku cannot do due to his pure Saiyan desires

The rest of the post has been addressed in your previous, similar threads in 23 and 22, so I wanted to pinpoint this part because it isn't so. Gohan went ahead and let Super Buu fight Gotenks just because, he knew he was stronger and he tripped over the same stone, and he knew Buu was cooking something up, what makes his hubris even worse. This is mentioned in DBS when Piccolo trains Gohan.

Gohan learned nothing from the Cell Games, at least nothing about how to deal swiftly with evil threats. He is not reliable even before the Buutenks fiasco because he slacked so much that he even lost his SS2 form.

[ABED]

I mean, if the point is that Goku invites evildoers, then that point is invalidated by Babidi and co. invading even though Goku is dead.

You are taking that point entirely too literally. Goku shows up for the Tenkaichi Budokai and guess what? A universe ending threat is there waiting for them. When it's said danger follows him around, it's not literal. It follows him in the same way murder followed Jessica Fletcher or Adrian Monk.

[SupremeKai25]

I mean, if the point is that Goku invites evildoers, then that point is invalidated by Babidi and co. invading even though Goku is dead.

You are taking that point entirely too literally. Goku shows up for the Tenkaichi Budokai and guess what? A universe ending threat is there waiting for them. When it's said danger follows him around, it's not literal. It follows him in the same way murder followed Jessica Fletcher or Adrian Monk.

Which was entirely a coincidence. They didn't show up because Goku was there. They would have still showed up even if Goku was dead. Again, remove Goku from the equation, and Babidi and co. still invade the Earth exactly as they did in the Main timeline. We know this as a fact, becaues that's exactly what happened in Future Trunks timeline. Goku was dead for 30 years, yet the Babidi corps still showed up and launched their attack.

Again, Goku being dead doesn't guarantee that the Earth will be safe. Goku being dead just means one of the strongest warriors is no longer around if the Earth is endangered. The Android/Cell saga couldn't even make up its mind on what it wanted its core message to be. Initially, it was "The Earth is doomed if Goku dies", then at the end it's suddenly "The Earth is better-off if Goku's dead".

Furthermore, it's OOC for Goku to suddenly care about the Earth, when he was willing to doom the entire Universe in the next arc just to have a good fight with Kid Buu.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Furthermore, it's OOC for Goku to suddenly care about the Earth, when he was willing to doom the entire Universe in the next arc just to have a good fight with Kid Buu.

I'd actually say it's quite clear from early on Goku cares a lot about the Earth. In the Pilaf arc (and to an extent the Red Ribbon Army arc) there's a lot of chill time that utilises the environment and setting as a mood. Seeing things like Goku running through the fields and fending for himself establishes the feeling of being at home. Then when Goku grows up he takes pride in the fact he was raised on planet Earth.

You could argue its all out of convenience because he has a large space to train and he's always put fighting strong opponents above anything else, like when Goku was fighting Freeza, his friends were terrified for his life but he refused to be transported back to Earth.

I still think it's pretty evident Goku loves the planet he spent most of his life. He even mistakingly referred to it as the place he was born in the Baby arc as he lay down looking at it thinking about all the memories before he began to transform in GT episode 34.

[SupremeKai25]

Furthermore, it's OOC for Goku to suddenly care about the Earth, when he was willing to doom the entire Universe in the next arc just to have a good fight with Kid Buu.

I'd actually say it's quite clear from early on Goku cares a lot about the Earth. In the Pilaf arc (and to an extent the Red Ribbon Army arc) there's a lot of chill time that utilises the environment and setting as a mood. Seeing things like Goku running through the fields and fending for himself establishes the feeling of being at home. Then when Goku grows up he takes pride in the fact he was raised on planet Earth.

You could argue its all out of convenience because he has a large space to train and he's always put fighting strong opponents above anything else, like when Goku was fighting Freeza, his friends were terrified for his life but he refused to be transported back to Earth.

I still think it's pretty evident Goku loves the planet he spent most of his life on.

Well, It's simple, I think that the message at the ending of the Cell saga is terrible and doesn't fit the tone of Dragon Ball.

From Dragon Ball, I would expect an upbeat and optimistic ending.

The ending of the Cell saga is just dark for no reason. Even if Goku actively endangered the Earth, he should just die and never see his family again? He should just never get to see his own son grow up?

Yeah, that's just an unnecessarily bleak and dark ending, which I am more than glad that the Buu saga invalidated.

I still think it's pretty evident Goku loves the planet he spent most of his life on.

Irrelevant, he's still willing to endanger it if he can get a good fight out of it, such as refusing to fuse again and going into the Kid Buu fight without any real plan in mind a few minutes after seeing Kid Buu blowing up the Earth.

It's safe to say that Goku would prefer to remain alive and fight ever-stronger opponents even if the Earth is at risk (which can be restored with Dragon Balls anyway), rather than straight up die and never meet strong opponents again.

[MasenkoHA]

Furthermore, it's OOC for Goku to suddenly care about the Earth, when he was willing to doom the entire Universe in the next arc just to have a good fight with Kid Buu.

I'd actually say it's quite clear from early on Goku cares a lot about the Earth. In the Pilaf arc (and to an extent the Red Ribbon Army arc) there's a lot of chill time that utilises the environment and setting as a mood. Seeing things like Goku running through the fields and fending for himself establishes the feeling of being at home. Then when Goku grows up he takes pride in the fact he was raised on planet Earth.

You could argue its all out of convenience because he has a large space to train and he's always put fighting strong opponents above anything else, like when Goku was fighting Freeza, his friends were terrified for his life but he refused to be transported back to Earth.

I still think it's pretty evident Goku loves the planet he spent most of his life on.

Well, It's simple, I think that the message at the ending of the Cell saga is terrible and doesn't fit the tone of Dragon Ball.

From Dragon Ball, I would expect an upbeat and optimistic ending.

The ending of the Cell saga is just dark for no reason. Even if Goku actively endangered the Earth, he should just die and never see his family again? He should just never get to see his own son grow up?

Yeah, that's just an unnecessarily bleak and dark ending, which I am more than glad that the Buu saga invalidated. .

Did you watch/read a different Cell saga from everyone else? There was nothing dark and bleak about the ending. At most it was bitter sweet. Goku wanted to stay in the afterlife and have his next adventure in the Next World. His friends and family were sad but accepted his decision and also wished Future Trunks a fond farewell going home to save his time from the evil Androids. It was a celebration of Son Goku and all he did for his loved ones.

I don't like it as a series finale and I don't think it's thematically a strong ending for Goku but it is the furthest thing from a dark and bleak ending.


Isn't your favorite arc the Zamasu one? The one where the resolution is to just wipe a timeline (a timeline where almost all the characters we know and love are already dead) from existence. But it's okay because Future Trunks and Future Mai, the characters we care about, can start a new life together somewhere else. I wouldn't even call that dark and bleak but if you want to pretend the ending of the Cell saga is...

[SupremeKai25]

I'd actually say it's quite clear from early on Goku cares a lot about the Earth. In the Pilaf arc (and to an extent the Red Ribbon Army arc) there's a lot of chill time that utilises the environment and setting as a mood. Seeing things like Goku running through the fields and fending for himself establishes the feeling of being at home. Then when Goku grows up he takes pride in the fact he was raised on planet Earth.

You could argue its all out of convenience because he has a large space to train and he's always put fighting strong opponents above anything else, like when Goku was fighting Freeza, his friends were terrified for his life but he refused to be transported back to Earth.

I still think it's pretty evident Goku loves the planet he spent most of his life on.

Well, It's simple, I think that the message at the ending of the Cell saga is terrible and doesn't fit the tone of Dragon Ball.

From Dragon Ball, I would expect an upbeat and optimistic ending.

The ending of the Cell saga is just dark for no reason. Even if Goku actively endangered the Earth, he should just die and never see his family again? He should just never get to see his own son grow up?

Yeah, that's just an unnecessarily bleak and dark ending, which I am more than glad that the Buu saga invalidated. .

Did you watch/read a different Cell saga from everyone else? There was nothing dark and bleak about the ending.

You mean, besides the Main Character dying?

Isn't your favorite arc the Zamasu one? The one where the resolution is to just wipe a timeline (a timeline where almost all the characters we know and love are already dead) from existence. But it's okay because Future Trunks and Future Mai, the characters we care about, can start a new life together somewhere else. I wouldn't even call that dark and bleak but if you want to pretend the ending of the Cell saga is...

Well, No, because ultimately Trunks creates an entire parallel universe where Zamasu is stopped from causing any harm. So he still suceeds in creating a peaceful world, so it's a positive ending.

Had the Zamasu saga been written like the Cell saga, Future Trunks would have just accepted his misery and stayed in the Present timeline forever.

[MasenkoHA]

You mean, besides the Main Character dying?

Well damn, it's almost like context matters. He was happily going on his next adventure. Nobody on earth was grieving for the loss and pretty much accepted it.

Media literacy is dead, I swear to god.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

Well, No, because ultimately Trunks creates an entire parallel universe where Zamasu is stopped from causing any harm. So he still suceeds in creating a peaceful world, so it's a positive ending.

Just like at the end of the Cell arc when he returns to the future to stop the androids, thusly restoring the peace?

That arc doesn't have a dark, bleak ending. It's tough accepting the loss of Goku but the two timelines are saved and in the present everyone knows they will see him again.

The Boo arc rewards people for their optimism looking forward.

[SupremeKai25]

Well, No, because ultimately Trunks creates an entire parallel universe where Zamasu is stopped from causing any harm. So he still suceeds in creating a peaceful world, so it's a positive ending.

Just like at the end of the Cell arc when he returns to the future to stop the androids, thusly restoring the peace?

That arc doesn't have a dark, bleak ending. It's tough accepting the loss of Goku but the two timelines are saved and in the present everyone knows they will see him again.

The Boo arc rewards people for their optimism looking forward.

Again, I simply disagree with the premise that Goku needed to stay dead. It was a weird plot twist that didn't really go anywhere.

There was pretty much no reason for Goku to stay dead. If he really wanted to avoid luring evil-doers to Earth, he could have just spent the rest of his life on an adventure in Space and only rarely visit the Earth; which is actually how Super is writing Goku (a much-needed and well-deserved fix to the character).

[Koitsukai]

I disagree as well with the Cell arc having a bleak ending. Death is real, and we finally see the most anti-death gang come to terms with it, instead of trying to revert it. That's growth, right there.
He dies, sure, but it's not like he disappears forever or that his family and friends end up empty and heartbroken and their lives fall apart because of this, they acknowledge his impact on their lives, and are at peace with his passing, which is the most natural thing in the world and a hell of a positive message.
Goku even says he'll come back to say hi (it takes him 7 years to do so, lol), the arc ends in a positive note. Death doesn't necessarily mean bleak or dark, specially in DB, and specially in this particular context.

About Goku's decision, he is using Bulma's complain to justify his more than understandable decision to stay dead this time. Not only it's the natural thing to do (RKS disapproves the excessive usage of the DBs), he wants to see the Other World fighters. His journey doesn't end, there's nothing bleak about this, from any POV whatsoever.
Only from Dr Gero's POV it's a dark ending, with his androids killed, defeated and befriending the people they were supposed to kill.