The reason Goku stayed dead that no one talks about

[Cure Dragon 255]

While I think the above does go too easy on Vegeta, the fact is that Goku's presence was what allowed Babidi to tempt Vegeta. If Goku hadnt been around, I doubt Vegeta would go "MWA HAHA! I WILL BECOME EVIL TO BEAT GOHAN UP" or anything like that.

I mean, there was plenty of negative emotion for Babidi to manipulate.
Vegeta was clearly resentful over being domesticated, and that would be an easy switch for the Majin

Either way, Vegeta was gonna Vegeta, tho maybe Majin Buu wouldn't be revived if Goku was out of the picture and Trunks and Bulma made him turn on Babidi.

Best take.

[super michael]

Vegeta isn't to blame for Goku agreeing to fight him, he threatened Kaioshin, told Bobbidi to transport them away from the tournament grounds, and powered up to Super Saiyan 2 out of his own free will.

Let's also not pretend that Goku didn't go to unnecessary lengths to indulge Vegeta. He was smiling prior to and during the fight, and we later learn he withheld Super Saiyan 3.

Vegeta gave Goku these options:

- Goku fight Vegeta
- Vegeta kills innocent people

Seeing that Goku doesn't like innocent people getting killed, then he was forced to fight him. Goku listening to Kaioshin would result in Vegeta killing more people.

Goku explained why he didn't use SSJ3, he wanted to leave it as a emergency. He didn't know how much time he would have after using said form and would be too tired to fight.

[MasenkoHA]

Vegeta isn't to blame for Goku agreeing to fight him, he threatened Kaioshin, told Bobbidi to transport them away from the tournament grounds, and powered up to Super Saiyan 2 out of his own free will.

Let's also not pretend that Goku didn't go to unnecessary lengths to indulge Vegeta. He was smiling prior to and during the fight, and we later learn he withheld Super Saiyan 3.

Goku explained why he didn't use SSJ3, he wanted to leave it as a emergency. He didn't know how much time he would have after using said form and would be too tired to fight.

An emergency like...putting a kibosh on a fight so you don't awaken an uber powerful bubblegum genie demon?

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

Dragon Ball characters in general have issues with being pragmatic. That’s how the entire Cell saga was able to happen. Even Gohan has been guilty of that.

Outside of Future Trunks that whole not being pragmatic thing is probably one of the best points to come out of this thread. Let's not forget that when Bulma pointed out that they could've just used the Dragon Balls to find Gero and kill him before he could put together his plans, nearly every major character said "no" out of pride. And the few characters who thought that was a bad idea didn't argue against it. They just shrugged and went "well one of us will get strong enough to beat them. It'll work itself out, right?."
While Vegeta never would've felt the need to get possessed had Goku never shown up there's still a good chance that Boo would've been revived based on the team's track record.

[ABED]

Dragon Ball characters in general have issues with being pragmatic. That’s how the entire Cell saga was able to happen. Even Gohan has been guilty of that.

Outside of Future Trunks that whole not being pragmatic thing is probably one of the best points to come out of this thread. Let's not forget that when Bulma pointed out that they could've just used the Dragon Balls to find Gero and kill him before he could put together his plans, nearly every major character said "no" out of pride. And the few characters who thought that was a bad idea didn't argue against it. They just shrugged and went "well one of us will get strong enough to beat them. It'll work itself out, right?."
While Vegeta never would've felt the need to get possessed had Goku never shown up there's still a good chance that Boo would've been revived based on the team's track record.

I'm not sure what you mean by pride. They ssaid "no" to finding Dr. Gero because their EXPLICIT goal was to fight the cyborgs.

[Zephyr]

Vegeta gave Goku these options:

- Goku fight Vegeta
- Vegeta kills innocent people

Seeing that Goku doesn't like innocent people getting killed, then he was forced to fight him. Goku listening to Kaioshin would result in Vegeta killing more people.

Goku explained why he didn't use SSJ3, he wanted to leave it as a emergency. He didn't know how much time he would have after using said form and would be too tired to fight.

That's still not being forced to fight Vegeta, though. I think Goku made the right call in deciding to fight Vegeta, but it was still a call he made.

But like Masenko said, this was an emergency. He literally says:

I don't want to get hurt and give Boo any energy. I'm going to end this quickly, at full power.

That is a recognition of how important it is that he does not get damaged by Vegeta. Then he turns Super Saiyan 2. Then Vegeta turns Super Saiyan 2, and Goku literally says:

I guess this won't be so quick...

That was the time to turn Super Saiyan 3, if Goku was being maximally pragmatic. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

They fight for four pages, before the chapter ends on them smiling at each other. Then the next chapter begins with Gohan and Bobbidi's perspective. After three pages of that, Boo is already at full power. Goku did not pull out his "end this quickly" card, and instead took enough damage to power Boo up quickly.

As for how much time Goku would have left afterwards, well, it's hard to imagine Goku would be that beat up about it, given this pair of panels right before Gohan leaves:


Goku's face comes across to me like he's thinking: "lol I'm not."

---

I'm not sure what you mean by pride. They ssaid "no" to finding Dr. Gero because their EXPLICIT goal was to fight the cyborgs.

He's probably referring to the reason why their explicit goal was to fight: their warrior's pride. Tenshinhan spells it out nicely:

But I want to know just what I can do in battle...and if I die...then it was an honorable death...

Outside of Future Trunks that whole not being pragmatic thing is probably one of the best points to come out of this thread. Let's not forget that when Bulma pointed out that they could've just used the Dragon Balls to find Gero and kill him before he could put together his plans, nearly every major character said "no" out of pride. And the few characters who thought that was a bad idea didn't argue against it. They just shrugged and went "well one of us will get strong enough to beat them. It'll work itself out, right?."

There's a funny thing people overlook when talking about not taking Gero out early: the stated reasons for Trunks coming back in time in the first place.

After giving Goku the medicine he says:

All my mother wanted was for you to survive. That's why she worked so hard on the time machine...

After Goku says he hopes the future will change, Trunks says:

I have a little hope, now that I've seen your strength.

and

If I'm still alive, I'll come to help...in three years.

Later on, when they're moving Goku to Kame House, Trunks is explaining why he came back in time at all even if it wouldn't automatically change his future, he says:

Mom said...it's so horrible what the androids did to us...that there deserves to be a peaceful future where they've been destroyed. But also...maybe I could find their weakness by watching Goku fight them. And if that didn't work...then maybe we could bring Goku to our future with the time machine.

So, as far as Future Bulma and Trunks are concerned, fighting them is indeed the whole point. By not simply telling Trunks where Gero's lab is and sending him back in time to kill him there, she is arguably the ultimate source of the impractical approach here. But also, that wouldn't necessarily do anything to help her. Letting Goku fight them might benefit her in the long run, so I guess she is being practical there. If there's any sloppy writing about the whole thing, it's Toriyama not thinking to have Trunks say at Goku's landing site what he says on the way to Kame House, and Piccolo not telling all of this to present Bulma when she's suggesting they take Gero out now.

Granted, it's not clear if Future Bulma knew where Gero's lab was. At Goku's landing site she's suggesting they use the Dragon Balls to find Gero, but after Gero destroys her plane she talks about rumors regarding his lab's location. So it's unclear if Toriyama forgot that she didn't know before, or if it's meant to be implied that she learned during the 3 years. And it it's the latter, it's unclear if she learned specifically because of what she knew was going to happen, or if that's a rumor she heard naturally. Though even if Future Bulma hadn't known before the initial cyborg attack, I would imagine that after 17 odd years she might have learned where his lab was located. Then again, even if she still had no idea where the lab was, why wouldn't she send Trunks back to use the Dragon Balls to find it himself?

Either way, people who hate them not taking Gero out in advance don't talk enough about Future Bulma.

[MasenkoHA]

Either way, people who hate them not taking Gero out in advance don't talk enough about Future Bulma.

They also fundmentally misunderstand what Dragon Ball is even about.

Bulma's awareness of Gero is pretty inconsistent. She goes from "let's ask the dragon to find him" to "Not only do I know what he looks like, I also know where his lab is!" at Toriyama's convenience. Though I guess your suggestion she learned it in the 3 year interim is as good a handwave as any.

As far as Future Bulma sending Trunks to save Goku instead of going to stop Gero and then save Goku....I guess Bulma learned to respect the code of the martial artist in her middle age? Product of her losing her martial arts loving best friend, her martial arts loving ex, and her martial arts loving baby daddy.

[Zephyr]

As far as Future Bulma sending Trunks to save Goku instead of going to stop Gero and then save Goku....I guess Bulma learned to respect the code of the martial artist in her middle age? Product of her losing her martial arts loving best friend, her martial arts loving ex, and her martial arts loving baby daddy.

Well hey, by the Boo arc she's able to basically sense ki, judging from her realizing that Vegeta died.

This is also making think of an alternate scenario where Bulma decided to cybernetically enhance herself to throw some hands, the same way Gero did.

[ABED]

Zephyr, thanks.

I never thought about the thing you brought up about future Bulma and Trunks. I assumed he came back to give Goku the medicine to save his life so he could stop the cyborgs before they had a chance to do anything. Despite all the times I've read or seen the story, it didn't register with me that Bulma's plan was always to have Goku and his friends fight the cyborgs.

As far as Future Bulma sending Trunks to save Goku instead of going to stop Gero and then save Goku....I guess Bulma learned to respect the code of the martial artist in her middle age? Product of her losing her martial arts loving best friend, her martial arts loving ex, and her martial arts loving baby daddy.

The same thing happened with Chichi. She calmed down a lot when Goku died. Granted she seemed to be on her way in the Cell arc.

[BootyCheeksJohnson]

So, as far as Future Bulma and Trunks are concerned, fighting them is indeed the whole point. By not simply telling Trunks where Gero's lab is and sending him back in time to kill him there, she is arguably the ultimate source of the impractical approach here. But also, that wouldn't necessarily do anything to help her. Letting Goku fight them might benefit her in the long run, so I guess she is being practical there. If there's any sloppy writing about the whole thing, it's Toriyama not thinking to have Trunks say at Goku's landing site what he says on the way to Kame House, and Piccolo not telling all of this to present Bulma when she's suggesting they take Gero out now.

Granted, it's not clear if Future Bulma knew where Gero's lab was. At Goku's landing site she's suggesting they use the Dragon Balls to find Gero, but after Gero destroys her plane she talks about rumors regarding his lab's location. So it's unclear if Toriyama forgot that she didn't know before, or if it's meant to be implied that she learned during the 3 years. And it it's the latter, it's unclear if she learned specifically because of what she knew was going to happen, or if that's a rumor she heard naturally. Though even if Future Bulma hadn't known before the initial cyborg attack, I would imagine that after 17 odd years she might have learned where his lab was located. Then again, even if she still had no idea where the lab was, why wouldn't she send Trunks back to use the Dragon Balls to find it himself?

Either way, people who hate them not taking Gero out in advance don't talk enough about Future Bulma.

Yeah, but the characters in the present time didn't know that time travel results in split timelines. (At least it's never explicitly stated that they knew, If I recall correctly.) For all they knew killing Gero early could have just changed Trunks' timeline to match theirs. Also Bulma isn't a fighter so why would she care if the team gets a good fight or not?

[MasenkoHA]

The same thing happened with Chichi. She calmed down a lot when Goku died. Granted she seemed to be on her way in the Cell arc.

That's true. She went from "no martial arts for Gohan, period" to "Fine he can practice martial arts with you but no fighting evil artificial life for the fate of the world".

[Cure Dragon 255]

So this topic ended up FINALLY bringing up something that was not brought up before. I think Future Bulma can be forgiven because she's human, as smart as she is, she cant really help making some mistakes that are catastrophic yet simple to solve in hindsight.


Hindsight is 20 20 and I think she's a victim of Toriyama not really being a big problem solver to begin with.