Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[The Monkey King]

However, I think there will be some serious stuff by the end of it, to cater to the audience that watches DB just for that, which happens to be the majority of the fandom.

Has there been surveys about this, or are you voicing your impressions as facts?

Dragon Ball's rise in popularity scales with how much it started to focus on serious action rather than being a light-hearted adventure gag manga.

From not being that popular in its initial arc, to picking up momentum from the 21st BT onwards to exploding in popularity during the Piccolo Daimo arc and the 23rd BT.

[Koitsukai]

To build off the Red Ribbon Army arc conversation, I think what made that arc so fantastic to me is that it was just an excellent story for Goku where he makes peace with his grandpa’s death. You can certainly criticize it in a number of different ways but the fact that it was a legit character driven story in DB that developed Goku is why it was so good. I'm not sure I expect Daima to do anything special in that regard but I can hope

Grandpa Gohan being in Daima would be refreshingly out of left field.

Plus it would be nice to see modern Dragon Ball unequivocally acknowledge him as Goku's father figure since it feels like over time he's been low-key deemphasized in the role in favor of Bardock (especially with the shenanigans going on in the Super manga).

This. It's exhausting seeing modern material push Bardock (and to a lesser extent Gine) as being the reason Goku is he is in place of Grandpa Gohan

While I'm on that Gohan camp, too, this being a Toriyama story, and considering the whole Little House on Planet Vegeta concept was Toriyama's idea, I doubt something like that will happen.

[tonysoprano300]

I wouldn’t expect his inclusion either, hell Goku has been to the afterlife on numerous occasions and still didn’t feel it was necessary to look up Grandpa Gohan. I wonder if Toriyama just forgot about him

[AliTheZombie13]

To build off the Red Ribbon Army arc conversation, I think what made that arc so fantastic to me is that it was just an excellent story for Goku where he makes peace with his grandpa’s death. You can certainly criticize it in a number of different ways but the fact that it was a legit character driven story in DB that developed Goku is why it was so good. I'm not sure I expect Daima to do anything special in that regard but I can hope

Maybe I should express myself better.
I do like the Red Ribbon Arc, precisely because of the character moments like Goku meeting Bulma's family, Snow, Upa, Bora, deciding to help them and forsake his memento, and being able to see his Grandpa again and move on. All of this is fantastic.

What I do have a gripe with is the extremely predictable and tiring formula of its first half. "Oh no, there's a Red Ribbon General in Goku's way, this general is really powerful and strong, and he kills people, and is enslaving people, will Goku overcome this incredible challenge and- Oh, never mind, he's shit compared to Goku. Tune in next episode where... the exact same thing happens."

This problem is way more pronounced in the anime. It's okay to make jokes like "Ha ha, Goku is invincible and tramples everyone." But the fact it takes almost two dozens of episodes of the same formula nonstop until General Blue shows up made me unwilling to continue at times... Maybe this is how the people who hate GT's first arc feel.

All I'm saying is, if Daima wants to go the Red Ribbon Route, at least add a little more diversity to the show, more character moments, more interesting plots than just "Ha ha Goku is invincible, this entire episode-long excuse of a fight scene was just a fluke! "

Also, yeah. Grandpa Gohan desperately needs to come back to the show. Ever since Namek, he's been forgotten like he never even existed.

[ZeroNeonix]

This. It's exhausting seeing modern material push Bardock (and to a lesser extent Gine) as being the reason Goku is he is in place of Grandpa Gohan

It could be both. It's that whole nature versus nurture thing. Goku some aspects of his personality from his biological parents, but his "Grandpa" Gohan is the reason he has the morals that he has, as well as why he's socially inept and bad at keeping up with friends (raised by a literal hermit).

[kemuri07]

wedon'ttalkaboutthewishwedon'ttalkaboutthewishwedon'ttalkaboutthewish.

......

[lancerman]

To build off the Red Ribbon Army arc conversation, I think what made that arc so fantastic to me is that it was just an excellent story for Goku where he makes peace with his grandpa’s death. You can certainly criticize it in a number of different ways but the fact that it was a legit character driven story in DB that developed Goku is why it was so good. I'm not sure I expect Daima to do anything special in that regard but I can hope

Maybe I should express myself better.
I do like the Red Ribbon Arc, precisely because of the character moments like Goku meeting Bulma's family, Snow, Upa, Bora, deciding to help them and forsake his memento, and being able to see his Grandpa again and move on. All of this is fantastic.

What I do have a gripe with is the extremely predictable and tiring formula of its first half. "Oh no, there's a Red Ribbon General in Goku's way, this general is really powerful and strong, and he kills people, and is enslaving people, will Goku overcome this incredible challenge and- Oh, never mind, he's shit compared to Goku. Tune in next episode where... the exact same thing happens."

This problem is way more pronounced in the anime. It's okay to make jokes like "Ha ha, Goku is invincible and tramples everyone." But the fact it takes almost two dozens of episodes of the same formula nonstop until General Blue shows up made me unwilling to continue at times... Maybe this is how the people who hate GT's first arc feel.

All I'm saying is, if Daima wants to go the Red Ribbon Route, at least add a little more diversity to the show, more character moments, more interesting plots than just "Ha ha Goku is invincible, this entire episode-long excuse of a fight scene was just a fluke! "

Also, yeah. Grandpa Gohan desperately needs to come back to the show. Ever since Namek, he's been forgotten like he never even existed.

Tbf the Silver and Muscle Tower sections are the only real issues with Goku being way too far above his current opponents. Even then Muscle Tower has some cool stuff with it being a progression of different challenges. The entire Ninja Murasaki section is a big comedy spot anyways. Then Buyon is invincible and Goku legitimately can't beat him until he has to actually strategize. Then even White actually finds a way to be a threat to Goku when he shoots him with the super powered gun and it takes Android 8 to save Goku. So it's not all that one sided. Goku actually has some things to do that aren't pure laying the smackdown on his opponents.

Though yes, admittedly the arc kicks into high gear with Blue and then peaks with Tao. Though I will say the first arc is far more egregious in terms of Goku being OP. He pretty much steam rolls everyone he gets into a fight with in the series up until the Nam fight in the second arc. Then he still wins that and it's not until the tournament finals where he comes against someone he straight up can't beat. However there's a flip side to that coin. The next time he really goes against a character he loses to and can't beat, it's Tao. Then Tao's section of the story creates a formula which the series uses pretty much the entire rest of the way until it ends and it gets pretty repetitive.

Though I don't think Daima will be similar to the RRA arc. At this stage in the game I doubt they can nerf the characters enough to make it be as much of an adventure even with the deaging.

[lancerman]

To build off the Red Ribbon Army arc conversation, I think what made that arc so fantastic to me is that it was just an excellent story for Goku where he makes peace with his grandpa’s death. You can certainly criticize it in a number of different ways but the fact that it was a legit character driven story in DB that developed Goku is why it was so good. I'm not sure I expect Daima to do anything special in that regard but I can hope

Maybe I should express myself better.
I do like the Red Ribbon Arc, precisely because of the character moments like Goku meeting Bulma's family, Snow, Upa, Bora, deciding to help them and forsake his memento, and being able to see his Grandpa again and move on. All of this is fantastic.

What I do have a gripe with is the extremely predictable and tiring formula of its first half. "Oh no, there's a Red Ribbon General in Goku's way, this general is really powerful and strong, and he kills people, and is enslaving people, will Goku overcome this incredible challenge and- Oh, never mind, he's shit compared to Goku. Tune in next episode where... the exact same thing happens."

This problem is way more pronounced in the anime. It's okay to make jokes like "Ha ha, Goku is invincible and tramples everyone." But the fact it takes almost two dozens of episodes of the same formula nonstop until General Blue shows up made me unwilling to continue at times... Maybe this is how the people who hate GT's first arc feel.

All I'm saying is, if Daima wants to go the Red Ribbon Route, at least add a little more diversity to the show, more character moments, more interesting plots than just "Ha ha Goku is invincible, this entire episode-long excuse of a fight scene was just a fluke! "

Also, yeah. Grandpa Gohan desperately needs to come back to the show. Ever since Namek, he's been forgotten like he never even existed.

Tbf the Silver and Muscle Tower sections are the only real issues with Goku being way too far above his current opponents. Even then Muscle Tower has some cool stuff with it being a progression of different challenges. The entire Ninja Murasaki section is a big comedy spot anyways. Then Buyon is invincible and Goku legitimately can't beat him until he has to actually strategize. Then even White actually finds a way to be a threat to Goku when he shoots him with the super powered gun and it takes Android 8 to save Goku. So it's not all that one sided. Goku actually has some things to do that aren't pure laying the smackdown on his opponents.

Though yes, admittedly the arc kicks into high gear with Blue and then peaks with Tao. Though I will say the first arc is far more egregious in terms of Goku being OP. He pretty much steam rolls everyone he gets into a fight with in the series up until the Nam fight in the second arc. Then he still wins that and it's not until the tournament finals where he comes against someone he straight up can't beat. However there's a flip side to that coin. The next time he really goes against a character he loses to and can't beat, it's Tao. Then Tao's section of the story creates a formula which the series uses pretty much the entire rest of the way until it ends and it gets pretty repetitive.

Though I don't think Daima will be similar to the RRA arc. At this stage in the game I doubt they can nerf the characters enough to make it be as much of an adventure even with the deaging.

[lancerman]

I wouldn’t expect his inclusion either, hell Goku has been to the afterlife on numerous occasions and still didn’t feel it was necessary to look up Grandpa Gohan. I wonder if Toriyama just forgot about him

Well the first time he is in the afterlife, it's a race against time to train for the Saiyans and he really had no time to spare. The 7 years between the Cell arc and Boo arc are the only time he's in the afterlife and could see him. At that point, we don't see most of his time there except the very end of the last 7 years right before he comes back for the tournament. I doubt Toriyama forgot him because he literally brings back the main story mechanic that allowed Goku to meet Gohan again to bring Goku back. It was a total callback. Then everything else in the afterlife is focused on a few days of them getting ready and fighting Boo, where Goku isn't likely to take a break. Then he comes back to life.

Even in Super they use the mechanic again, and they basically do a nice little callback to that Goku vs Gohan fight.

[Caulifor]

How would Goku even meet Grandpa Gohan anyway? I was under the impression Gohan only got his body back temporarily to come back to Earth for that one day. Aside from that, he's probably in Heaven as one of those tiny sprites we see getting judged by Enma-Daioh. I'm not sure Goku can just hit him up.

[Koitsukai]

I think we can headcanon that in those 7 years, he managed to see Gohan again.
If he came back for a day after being dead for years, then his soul wasn't reseted, probably due to fighting Piccolo Daimaoh, meaning he must be somewhere reachable for Kaio or Enma in the After Life, even if it's just for a one-hour meeting. The rules are vague, but I don't think Gohan's soul has been reincarnated if years later he was still able to come back.
There's nothing that says Goku couldn't do that in 7 years... however, Toriyama's interviews lately tried to let us know Goku gives two fucks about those type of bonds.

If I've never read an AT interview, I'd bet money Goku seeked him. After reading them, I'd say he did not and just focused on getting stronger.

[tonysoprano300]

To build off the Red Ribbon Army arc conversation, I think what made that arc so fantastic to me is that it was just an excellent story for Goku where he makes peace with his grandpa’s death. You can certainly criticize it in a number of different ways but the fact that it was a legit character driven story in DB that developed Goku is why it was so good. I'm not sure I expect Daima to do anything special in that regard but I can hope

Maybe I should express myself better.
I do like the Red Ribbon Arc, precisely because of the character moments like Goku meeting Bulma's family, Snow, Upa, Bora, deciding to help them and forsake his memento, and being able to see his Grandpa again and move on. All of this is fantastic.

What I do have a gripe with is the extremely predictable and tiring formula of its first half. "Oh no, there's a Red Ribbon General in Goku's way, this general is really powerful and strong, and he kills people, and is enslaving people, will Goku overcome this incredible challenge and- Oh, never mind, he's shit compared to Goku. Tune in next episode where... the exact same thing happens."

This problem is way more pronounced in the anime. It's okay to make jokes like "Ha ha, Goku is invincible and tramples everyone." But the fact it takes almost two dozens of episodes of the same formula nonstop until General Blue shows up made me unwilling to continue at times... Maybe this is how the people who hate GT's first arc feel.

All I'm saying is, if Daima wants to go the Red Ribbon Route, at least add a little more diversity to the show, more character moments, more interesting plots than just "Ha ha Goku is invincible, this entire episode-long excuse of a fight scene was just a fluke! "

Also, yeah. Grandpa Gohan desperately needs to come back to the show. Ever since Namek, he's been forgotten like he never even existed.

I agree, although the part with Tao was excellent they definitely could have done a better job throughout the arc. Personally I found a lot of those fights to be very funny but that’s besides the point

[tonysoprano300]

If adult Goku and Grandpa Gohan had a reunion in the 7 year time skip and we never got to see it, I would be very bitter lol

Ill always maintain that Goku crying in his grandpa’s arms was one of the best moments in DB history

[Majin Buu]

At this stage in the game I doubt they can nerf the characters enough to make it be as much of an adventure even with the deaging.

At minimum, all they need to do to make it feel like an adventure is to make sure the action isn't taking place in just one location or just one type of location.

IE- Don't have all the action take place in barren wastelands that all feel the same. Change up where the fights are happening and make sure those locations are visually distinct so it feels like the characters are actively moving between different locations in a larger world.

For instance, Namek is a boring planet because it's entirely a barren wasteland with very little visual variety in the locations we see, so all the fights feel very samey in terms of where they happen even though the action does take place in different locations on that planet (for the most part).

[Yuji]

At this stage in the game I doubt they can nerf the characters enough to make it be as much of an adventure even with the deaging.

At minimum, all they need to do to make it feel like an adventure is to make sure the action isn't taking place in just one location or just one type of location.

IE- Don't have all the action take place in barren wastelands that all feel the same. Change up where the fights are happening and make sure those locations are visually distinct so it feels like the characters are actively moving between different locations in a larger world.

For instance, Namek is a boring planet because it's entirely a barren wasteland with very little visual variety in the locations we see, so all the fights feel very samey in terms of where they happen even though the action does take place in different locations on that planet (for the most part).

That will just be Search for the Black Star DBs part two and that arc was awful, among many reasons, because it lacked tension. It lacked tension because nobody ever forced Goku to go beyond Super Saiyan, nor was it ever implied he couldn't go beyond Super Saiyan. Goku was not taking it seriously, so the audience wasn't either. The characters need to be in danger, and while you can craft some unique scenarios to set them up for failure via environmental or circumstancial hazards, they have too many tools in their kit to bypass most obstacles by this point.

I agree some nerf needs to happen via magical fuckery, be it limiting Goku and co's power to their base forms, outright cutting their abilities like flight and IT, or reverting their power levels to an earlier state, or some combination of the sort.

Alternatively you can also just powercreep the opponents to hell and make it so even the average mook rivals Jiren in power, but I'm sure that's not the approach they're going for.

[AliTheZombie13]

Whether it be the Black Star Dragon Balls arc or Daima, the power scaling was already stretching incredulity.
Even if you take the search to space, where you could find anyone, Freeza was already established as the strongest being in the universe (to Kaio's knowledge) since Namek. Goku already beat Freeza, Goku already became billions of times stronger than Freeza. So where do we go from here?

Also, "tension" was never the point of the Black Star Dragon Balls arc up until Rilldo and Baby showed up. Up until then, it was supposed to be a comedic light-hearted adventure. I'm pretty sure no one would really put "lack of tension" as a reason as to why the very first arc of DB sucks, since all villains were shit there, too. Sometimes, you just gotta learn to enjoy things for what they are rather than what you want them to be. If Daima follows the same pattern, I won't be complaining as long as the story is interesting.

[Majin Buu]

That will just be Search for the Black Star DBs part two and that arc was awful, among many reasons, because it lacked tension.

Like so much of GT- It was a good idea they executed badly.

For me, the problem with that part of GT is that nothing interesting or amusing is happening in it. Having varied locations was a good idea, it's just that the writing wasn't good enough to make us care about anything happening in those locations. You talk about the lack of tension in those episodes- they also fail at being fun (for the most part).

[AliTheZombie13]

Your mileage might vary, but I did find myself engaged with the capitalist dystopia planet, the creepy doll planet, the desert episode and the machine empire. Plenty of good character interaction to be found on those. The only one I had real problems with was the Oolong ripoff.

From what the trailer looks like, Daima will have at least a capitalist dystopia planet, so I'm interested in seeing how it'll play out.

[JulieYBM]

Your mileage might vary, but I did find myself engaged with the capitalist dystopia planet, the creepy doll planet, the desert episode and the machine empire. Plenty of good character interaction to be found on those. The only one I had real problems with was the Oolong ripoff.

From what the trailer looks like, Daima will have at least a capitalist dystopia planet, so I'm interested in seeing how it'll play out.

Oh lord, the Oolong rip-off episode is so bad. The original story is bad enough, but...ugh. They're both too similar to a trans panic.

[Yuji]

Whether it be the Black Star Dragon Balls arc or Daima, the power scaling was already stretching incredulity.
Even if you take the search to space, where you could find anyone, Freeza was already established as the strongest being in the universe (to Kaio's knowledge) since Namek. Goku already beat Freeza, Goku already became billions of times stronger than Freeza. So where do we go from here?

Also, "tension" was never the point of the Black Star Dragon Balls arc up until Rilldo and Baby showed up. Up until then, it was supposed to be a comedic light-hearted adventure. I'm pretty sure no one would really put "lack of tension" as a reason as to why the very first arc of DB sucks, since all villains were shit there, too. Sometimes, you just gotta learn to enjoy things for what they are rather than what you want them to be. If Daima follows the same pattern, I won't be complaining as long as the story is interesting.

There are fundamental differences between the Black Star arc and the Pilaf arc, and you touch upon one of them. The world was not known during the Pilaf arc and we were uncovering it, and its threats, alongside the gang. Even so, we see glimpses of all powerful characters Goku couldn't tag along with even in that arc, like Roshi and Gyumao. Whereas in GT, we have to hold our suspension of disbelief to even conceive of the possibility of someone out there in the universe being a threat to a post-Boo Goku. You're essentially placing a rather prodigious but naive child and an an experienced martial arts master in the same scenario and claiming they're analogous, which they're not.

Even in the Pilaf arc, there was tension, mainly because the crew would constantly be bickering and undermining each other and the conflict arose from how these five would get along together. Goku himself was not the center piece of the arc, he didn't need to be. When he was the center piece, it was at the end, where he served as the antagonistic force after his Oozaru transformation. In GT, the gang gets along fine enough despite some bickering here and there and Giru ends up being the most interesting character in that first arc because we're never sure where his allegiance lies, much like Oolong.

We see in an adventure arc actually spearheaded by Goku (the Red Ribbon Army) that he needs to be challenged and put into difficult (combat) situations because that's where his character shines. If Daima is going to be lower stakes like it's shaping out to be, then Goku needs to either be nerfed so a proper challenge can be provided and his character has opportunity to be at his best, OR there needs to be a bigger focus on the rest of the crew aka Shin and the other leaked characters. I imagine there will be a mix of both, but Goku probably won't be as nerfed as some folks expect.