Dragon Ball Daima (2024)

[Vegard Aune]

Really, Dragon Ball has long since put itself in a situation where convincingly challenging the heroes is effectively impossible, so however much Daima ends up "nerfing" Goku... I honestly hope it's a lot. I want the fights to include actual tactics and such. It's one of the reasons why I was at least somewhat open to the Universe 6 tournament even though a lot of the execution was severely lacking; Outside of Goku VS Hit which just boiled down to Goku brute-forcing his way through Hit's time skip somehow and throwing the match when he'd had his fun, pretty much none of the fights were just "This guy has tons of raw power and we need more raw power to overwhelm him!" And while Jiren was, like, the most "Just raw power" antagonist in the history of ever, I did appreciate how the fight against him ultimately did the all-out slugfest before the climax, having said climax instead giving us comparatively slower, more carefully choreographed fighting that had the remaining fighters in the ring use their wits more than their (all but completely spent) strength to win.

...The little snippet we have seen of Goku fighting in Daima is promising, but man, Toei continues to basically give us nothing to go off of here. Have we even gotten anything beyond those two short teasers? No wonder the discussion keeps veering off to GT and Super: Anything that could really be gleamed from the promotional material for Daima has long since been discussed.

[Rafa Fast]

I'm hopeful that Daima will be important to the series, I think Toei really wants to keep quite a secret about what will happen in this story, we don't know where in the continuity it takes place, we don't know if it will have Beerus and Whis or the characters from the revival era, we don't know if it will just be a side story or a major arc, we don't know if other characters besides Goku and Kaioshin will do something, etc, we really don't know anything, not sure, but I'm feeling that Daima could be important in defining what the future of the series will be.

Especially after I saw more people saying that the fact that the revival era had stories that are callbacks to the Freeza Saga (Fukkatsu no 'F') and Cell (Super Hero), and that now Daima could be a callback to the Boo Saga, which was the series' original final saga, could be an indicative of where we could be heading (and where the Super manga left off could give an even stronger clue), I refuse to believe that is just going to be a special side story to celebrate the franchise's fourth decadersary.

Really hope Toriyama wrote down his plans.

[Yuji]

Really, Dragon Ball has long since put itself in a situation where convincingly challenging the heroes is effectively impossible

I don't really think that's true. Most of the opponents have had credible reasons to be this strong and I think it's always been a concern by Toriyama to explain how new foes can challenge the heroes without breaking the established power scale.

Tao Pai Pai - renowned assassin
Piccolo Daimao - Earth ancient evil
Vegeta - alien
Freeza - emperor of the universe
Cell - composed of all previous' villains DNA
Boo - God killer and ancient evil
Beerus - God
Hit - different universe
Zamasu - God, one stole Goku's body, other one was immortal and weak(-ish)
Jiren - different universe
Broly - mutant freak of nature, couldn't control or access his power at will
Moro - God killer and ancient evil
Granolah/Gas - wished to be the strongest

I think the only ones that really stretch your suspension of disbelief are the Androids (both the originals and the Gammas for scaling back to Earth technology after universal threats), Golden Freeza (although I think him being a prodigy who never trained is fine, the original 4 month timeframe is a stretch) and probably even Broly (though it is made clear he is an exception, it depends on how much you're willing to believe he never showed up before). The other villains have all been escalations of the previous one and have been justified as exceptions, ancient evils or used gimmicks.

Universe 7 mooks and lesser villains are constantly compared to Namek arc characters, because the overall power scale of the universe hasn't really moved on from there although our main characters have.

[tonysoprano300]

Really, Dragon Ball has long since put itself in a situation where convincingly challenging the heroes is effectively impossible

I don't really think that's true. Most of the opponents have had credible reasons to be this strong and I think it's always been a concern by Toriyama to explain how new foes can challenge the heroes without breaking the established power scale.

Tao Pai Pai - renowned assassin
Piccolo Daimao - Earth ancient evil
Vegeta - alien
Freeza - emperor of the universe
Cell - composed of all previous' villains DNA
Boo - God killer and ancient evil
Beerus - God
Hit - different universe
Zamasu - God, one stole Goku's body, other one was immortal and weak(-ish)
Jiren - different universe
Broly - mutant freak of nature, couldn't control or access his power at will
Moro - God killer and ancient evil
Granolah/Gas - wished to be the strongest

I think the only ones that really stretch your suspension of disbelief are the Androids (both the originals and the Gammas for scaling back to Earth technology after universal threats), Golden Freeza (although I think him being a prodigy who never trained is fine, the original 4 month timeframe is a stretch) and probably even Broly (though it is made clear he is an exception, it depends on how much you're willing to believe he never showed up before). The other villains have all been escalations of the previous one and have been justified as exceptions, ancient evils or used gimmicks.

Universe 7 mooks and lesser villains are constantly compared to Namek arc characters, because the overall power scale of the universe hasn't really moved on from there although our main characters have.

Yea id say the bigger issue is fights becoming a battle power comparison, which is why I felt that the introduction of God Ki was a unique opportunity to sort of transform the series into something thats a little more reliant on specialization and tactics. But then they just dropped the ball so hard on that. The believability of the antagonists is certainly questionable at times(in instances like ROF or certain segments of TOP) but I think the more egregious thing is that Goku isn’t often employing tactics that go beyond generating a large ki blast or raising his energy.

Something American comics do well is have different antagonists challenge the hero in very distinct ways, Batmans solution to beating Joker wouldn’t be at all comparable to his solution for beating Bane. Idk if Toriyama ever felt this way and so I'm skeptical it will be featured in Daima.

[JulieYBM]

Dragon Ball became way too invested in trying to determine who could defeat someone in a one-on-one battle at full strength. I really wish that stuff outside of the 1984 comic had taken it upon itself to avoid doing that.

[Zephyr]

Sometimes, you just gotta learn to enjoy things for what they are rather than what you want them to be.

Agreed. That's why I've embraced that Dragon Ball is simply Goku's journey through the wacky never ending kung fu tournament that is life. When I'm hungry for something besides that, it's fun that there's an entire world of different art out there for me to enjoy.

[super michael]

Dragon Ball became way too invested in trying to determine who could defeat someone in a one-on-one battle at full strength. I really wish that stuff outside of the 1984 comic had taken it upon itself to avoid doing that.

Other anime made in 2024 still focus on one-on-one battle, which I enjoy. Although I also enjoy tag team battle, group battle, etc.
As for what Dragon Ball Daima will focus, I don't mind what it will be.

The only thing I don't want is Toei increasing the characters negative traits or giving them new negative traits. I really hope Goku isn't a clown in Daima.
I still consider turning Goten and Trunks into baby, so they don't do anything as bad writing. Everyone else either got turned into kids or teenagers, while they are the exception.

[AliTheZombie13]

Dragon Ball became way too invested in trying to determine who could defeat someone in a one-on-one battle at full strength. I really wish that stuff outside of the 1984 comic had taken it upon itself to avoid doing that.

Other anime made in 2024 still focus on one-on-one battle, which I enjoy. Although I also enjoy tag team battle, group battle, etc.
As for what Dragon Ball Daima will focus, I don't mind what it will be.

The only thing I don't want is Toei increasing the characters negative traits or giving them new negative traits. I really hope Goku isn't a clown in Daima.
I still consider turning Goten and Trunks into baby, so they don't do anything as bad writing. Everyone else either got turned into kids or teenagers, while they are the exception.

I feel like Clown Goku is Toriyama-mandated, sadly.

[JulieYBM]

Tying the hands of other creators sucks, and I wish that Toriyama had been wise enough to encourage those who worked on adaptions of his ideas to go even further into their ideas, rather than shirking them away.

[ZeroNeonix]

Dragon Ball became way too invested in trying to determine who could defeat someone in a one-on-one battle at full strength. I really wish that stuff outside of the 1984 comic had taken it upon itself to avoid doing that.

Other anime made in 2024 still focus on one-on-one battle, which I enjoy. Although I also enjoy tag team battle, group battle, etc.
As for what Dragon Ball Daima will focus, I don't mind what it will be.

The only thing I don't want is Toei increasing the characters negative traits or giving them new negative traits. I really hope Goku isn't a clown in Daima.
I still consider turning Goten and Trunks into baby, so they don't do anything as bad writing. Everyone else either got turned into kids or teenagers, while they are the exception.

I feel like Clown Goku is Toriyama-mandated, sadly.

Toriyama did apparently say that he thought the anime made Goku too heroic. He saw Goku as a more flawed character than he was portrayed as in animation. Super's version of Goku might have been an overcorrection. Hopefully Daima hits more in the middle.

[tonysoprano300]

Other anime made in 2024 still focus on one-on-one battle, which I enjoy. Although I also enjoy tag team battle, group battle, etc.
As for what Dragon Ball Daima will focus, I don't mind what it will be.

The only thing I don't want is Toei increasing the characters negative traits or giving them new negative traits. I really hope Goku isn't a clown in Daima.
I still consider turning Goten and Trunks into baby, so they don't do anything as bad writing. Everyone else either got turned into kids or teenagers, while they are the exception.

I feel like Clown Goku is Toriyama-mandated, sadly.

Toriyama did apparently say that he thought the anime made Goku too heroic. He saw Goku as a more flawed character than he was portrayed as in animation. Super's version of Goku might have been an overcorrection. Hopefully Daima hits more in the middle.

Which is weird because I feel like Toriyamas manga didn’t portray Goku that much differently

[Vegard Aune]

Which is weird because I feel like Toriyamas manga didn’t portray Goku that much differently

Goku in the original manga still expresses concern for his friends and his home and such, in the fight with Freeza at least. A far cry from Super Goku who, even when faced with Beerus being about to blow up his planet or the Omni-King being about to blow up his entire universe, just goes "Cool, I get to fight strong guys!" I think about the only time in Super where Goku genuinely seemed shook about something happening to others was his rage at learning that Zamasu had killed Chichi and Goten in the future... and that scene was anime-only and therefore probably a Toei original.

...So Zero Empathy Goku might indeed still be a thing in Daima. Much as I too think it's a massive overcorrection that often pushes him straight into unlikable territory, it was apparently what Toriyama asked for post-2013.

[Zephyr]

I think about the only time in Super where Goku genuinely seemed shook about something happening to others was his rage at learning that Zamasu had killed Chichi and Goten in the future... and that scene was anime-only and therefore probably a Toei original.

There was also the time when Geran tried to blast all of Goku's friends in the stands and he flipped out. Goku also explained in pretty clear terms that he cares about his friends, despite not being a "champion of justice".

I don't think that's inconsistent at all with how Goku's depicted throughout the original manga, with the "poison" that slips in and out of the shadows that Toriyama talked about: Goku's recklessness, and his willingness to gamble on his confidence in his own abilities for the sake of an exciting fight. There's actually a pretty big spectrum between "superhero" and "psychopath", despite what a lot of people seem to think.

[AliTheZombie13]

I think about the only time in Super where Goku genuinely seemed shook about something happening to others was his rage at learning that Zamasu had killed Chichi and Goten in the future... and that scene was anime-only and therefore probably a Toei original.

There was also the time when Geran tried to blast all of Goku's friends in the stands and he flipped out. Goku also explained in pretty clear terms that he cares about his friends, despite not being a "champion of justice".

I don't think that's inconsistent at all with how Goku's depicted throughout the original manga, with the "poison" that slips in and out of the shadows that Toriyama talked about: Goku's recklessness, and his willingness to gamble on his confidence in his own abilities for the sake of an exciting fight. There's actually a pretty big spectrum between "superhero" and "psychopath", despite what a lot of people seem to think.

Nobody's arguing that Goku needs to be a superhero, he can be just a guy who's out there to fight strong people who ends up saving the world by pure accident. The problem in my humble opinion is that Goku's a bad written one, often veering into pure unlikable territory after Toriyama's decided he's an alien from a bloodthirsty race.

I can name countless characters who have been portrayed in media as assholes, but not superheros, who do end up doing good things in the end, characters that I fell in love with and loved watching their journey. Goku is not one of them, and after Super, definitely not. He has too many negative qualities and barely any positives.

[Cure Dragon 255]

Yeah, people always say "Oh Goku post Battle Of Gods is such a Luffy clone" and I say this people DIDNT REALLY WATCH ONE PIECE. Which is forgiveable, not everyone can watch or even like One Piece, but while Luffy is childish and selfish, he LOVES his friends, and will be driven to fight to the death for his friends, he's selfish but he's not above bonds and relationships. He wouldnt do any of the REALLY boneheaded things Goku does post Battle of Gods.

[tonysoprano300]

I might be tripping but I don’t feel Goku was characterized poorly in BOG, at least the film depiction. He was certainly cocky in his first matchup against Beerus but once he lost he took Beerus very seriously. Putting aside his own pride to do the God ritual and then ending the fight by remembering everything he was trying to protect.

He did get humbled in the beginning but this was also a guy who probably felt that he was the strongest in the universe after defeating Buu, so i can see him making that mistake. Again I could be wrong, I haven’t seen BOG in a long time.

If they wanna write Goku as silly and indifferent, then don’t create high stakes arcs where I'm supposed to be deeply invested in the drama, and then hinge the entire thing on Goku being Homer Simpson. It just creates a mindset where you can’t take anything seriously. I'm assuming Daima will be a very lighthearted story

[super michael]

Goku has seen innocent people getting attacked by villains and Goku helped those people out, I consider that heroic.
Goku has gone out of his way to get the Dragon Balls to revive people, that is heroic in itself. He also went out of his way to try and activate the Dragons Balls.

Lets not forget that Goku has sacrificed his life, for the good of the earth.


Goku matured in DB/DBZ he gained some knowledge and skills in life also. He knew when someone was lying to him, when someone was in a disguise, when to take a fight serious, to be patient to train, etc. Those are things Goku no longer has anymore in DBS.
Goku forces others to spar with him, even if they don't want to and complains if others train with Whis or doesn't want to train to be with his wife.

Those are the type of writing that Dragon Ball Daima should avoid. It doesn't reflect Toriyama writing in the manga.

Here is the problem, Toriyama increase the gag by a bit, but Toei increase it by 11x. Toei goes overboard to the point that they ruin their characters.

[Cure Dragon 255]

I might be tripping but I don’t feel Goku was characterized poorly in BOG, at least the film depiction. He was certainly cocky in his first matchup against Beerus but once he lost he took Beerus very seriously. Putting aside his own pride to do the God ritual and then ending the fight by remembering everything he was trying to protect.

He did get humbled in the beginning but this was also a guy who probably felt that he was the strongest in the universe after defeating Buu, so i can see him making that mistake. Again I could be wrong, I haven’t seen BOG in a long time.

If they wanna write Goku as silly and indifferent, then don’t create high stakes arcs where I'm supposed to be deeply invested in the drama, and then hinge the entire thing on Goku being Homer Simpson. It just creates a mindset where you can’t take anything seriously. I'm assuming Daima will be a very lighthearted story

I dont know if this is aimed at me, but I meant POST BATTLE OF GODS. As in works that follow after that movie.

[tonysoprano300]

I might be tripping but I don’t feel Goku was characterized poorly in BOG, at least the film depiction. He was certainly cocky in his first matchup against Beerus but once he lost he took Beerus very seriously. Putting aside his own pride to do the God ritual and then ending the fight by remembering everything he was trying to protect.

He did get humbled in the beginning but this was also a guy who probably felt that he was the strongest in the universe after defeating Buu, so i can see him making that mistake. Again I could be wrong, I haven’t seen BOG in a long time.

If they wanna write Goku as silly and indifferent, then don’t create high stakes arcs where I'm supposed to be deeply invested in the drama, and then hinge the entire thing on Goku being Homer Simpson. It just creates a mindset where you can’t take anything seriously. I'm assuming Daima will be a very lighthearted story

I dont know if this is aimed at me, but I meant POST BATTLE OF GODS. As in works that follow after that movie.

It wasn’t, It was in reference to a point made earlier

[SuperSaiyaManZ94]

It seems like back in the day that Toei went out of their way at times to interpret and write Goku in the anime as effectively a superhero, even to the point of such things as healing a bird with his own power in one scene during one of the movies. I heard that it was apparently due to them not exactly taking to Toriyama's vision of his character and thus making changes writing wise in that respect. Funny enough that years later FUNimation with their dub went one step further and cranked that up to 11 hence such infamous dialogue as "Ally to good, nightmare to you" and the rewrite to the scene of him sparing Vegeta among others.

Though yeah, even Toriyama's own interpretation of Goku in the original manga isn't anywhere close to what Super (particularly the anime) depicts him as.