Why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the fandom?

[TechExpert2021]

Kanzenshuu (as well as its users, moderators, and staff/administrators) uses the correct translations/transliterations/romanizations of names of characters ("Freeza" instead of "Frieza", "Artificial Human" instead of "Android", "Jheese" instead of "Jeice"), locations ("Heavenly Realm" instead of "Kami's Lookout", "Imegga" instead of "Imecka"), attacks ("Makankosappo" instead of "Special Beam Cannon", "Kienzan" instead of "Destructo Disc", "Taiyoken" instead of "Solar Flare", "Genki-dama" instead of "Spirit Bomb"), and items ("Nyoi-bo" instead of "Power Pole", "Hoi Poi Capsules" instead of "Dyno-caps"). They did this for one good reason: maintaining accuracy and retaining the puns.

But why are the English dubisms far too ingrained into the English-speaking Dragon Ball fandom, even into the hardcore fandom? Almost all of the English dubisms are hard to remove from English-speaking fans. Purists are unaffected by this since they never watch dubs of anime or play localized versions of anime video games.

Dragon Ball games officially localized into English always use the English dubisms, which can turn off many purists. Dragon Ball games officially localized into English between 2002 and 2008 under the FUNimation license have either a trademark symbol (ex. Buu™) or a registered trademark symbol (ex. Goku®) after character names. This was never the case for Dragon Ball games in the Japanese-language, but I'm not sure if this was the case for Dragon Ball games officially released in Europe and Australia.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think we all know the Barry Watson pronunciation of Saiyan is never going to go away. As much as the unreleased Ocean Kai dub is an attempt to faithfully represent the original Japanese version we know from the recent Anime Time Machine livestreams Karl Willems was adamant the "say-an" is far too iconic and that he would have pushed for it if there was any pushback from the producers.

Funimation had a chance to make terms like Makankōsappō, Kienzan and such standard when they were used early on in Kai only for them to back down later.

Shenron was called "Shen Long" in the Bang Zoom dub of Super though, so if for whatever reason we ever get alternate English dubs in the future it is possible we will hear some more accurate naming conventions like that, but it will be more of a novelty thing and won't be one of the names or terms that fans use every day.

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

I think the main thing IS simply that the video games never stopped perpetuating the inaccurate names for characters and other things. It's why people still refer to Cell Games-era Gohan as "teen", for example. That's not a dubism, but a video game-exclusive term. I don't think many dub fans use subtitles, so they must've gotten their name spellings from other sources - video games mainly, I assume. If the games hadn't continued to use "Frieza", I suspect that spelling might've been left by the wayside. It would be a different case for the names that were changed entirely, though, because even if the video games had used "Tenshinhan", people rewatching the dub would still be hearing "Tien" on a regular basis.

The reason I stopped using dubisms myself is because I got exposed to many different spellings from many different sources ("Klilyn", anyone?) and eventually stumbled upon Daizenshuu EX where I was finally able to make sense of it all.

[MasenkoHA]

Most of the English speaking fandom were exposed to the English dub so that's what they're used to and that's what they use for names and terminlogy. It ain't that complex.

TrunksTrevlyan does bring up a good point of the video games influence. Most English Dragon Ball fans seem way more intimately familiar with the games than the actual cartoon or comic so stupid ass nomenclatures like Kid Goku and Teen Gohan get uttered all the time like it's the characters legal names. It's also the only reason hardcore dub fans have some idea of what ki is (though more often that not they seem to think its a concept made up by Toriyama for Dragon Ball) despite the actual dub avoiding using ki/chi like the plague even in their "more accurate" era in Kai.

[MrSatan2099]

I think audience age has a lot to do with it. Much more difficult to unlearn something that you just accept as the truth when you're a kid.

I see it with some other fandoms occasionally. I know older Marvel fans who instinctively say David Banner instead of Bruce Banner because they grew up watching The Incredible Hulk TV series. They know objectively it's inaccurate but it can be hard to break a habit you've had since you were 8.

[WittyUsername]

I think we all know the Barry Watson pronunciation of Saiyan is never going to go away. As much as the unreleased Ocean Kai dub is an attempt to faithfully represent the original Japanese version we know from the recent Anime Time Machine livestreams Karl Willems was adamant the "say-an" is far too iconic and that he would have pushed for it if there was any pushback from the producers.

Funimation had a chance to make terms like Makankōsappō, Kienzan and such standard when they were used early on in Kai only for them to back down later.

Shenron was called "Shen Long" in the Bang Zoom dub of Super though, so if for whatever reason we ever get alternate English dubs in the future it is possible we will hear some more accurate naming conventions like that, but it will be more of a novelty thing and won't be one of the names or terms that fans use every day.

Wasn’t that because Bandai insisted they keep the dub names?

[TheGreatness25]

"Funimation presents: A Dragon Ball/Z/GT Adaptation" is the official English version of the series and it's never going away. Any time anybody watches the English version of this series, it's going to have those names.

You mentioned that this even affects the "hardcore fandom"--can a dub fan not be a hardcore fan? Is there some kind of language standard for when you're considered a "hardcore" fan versus a casual fan? I think someone who collects video releases, manga, and video games of the series is a hardcore fan and it doesn't matter where they're from or which version they prefer.

I can speak for myself because I'm a fan of the Japanese version of the series and try to use those names as much as possible. But, I know that if I speak to a casual or dub fan, they wouldn't want to talk to me for too long if I bust out a "Genki Dama." Just gotta know your audience, I guess. Then again, I haven't spoken about Dragon Ball with a real life person since like 2008.

[MasenkoHA]

You mentioned that this even affects the "hardcore fandom"--can a dub fan not be a hardcore fan? Is there some kind of language standard for when you're considered a "hardcore" fan versus a casual fan? I think someone who collects video releases, manga, and video games of the series is a hardcore fan and it doesn't matter where they're from or which version they prefer.

Yeah, there are dub fans who know why most of the home video releases are crap, can list out every single "official" power level, know the placement of every Cakemix Studios track used in the dub, know all the minutia differences between the original audio dub and remastered dub, and know every single Funimation actor and who they voice. The idea "hardcore' dub fans don't exist is silly.

I can speak for myself because I'm a fan of the Japanese version of the series and try to use those names as much as possible. But, I know that if I speak to a casual or dub fan, they wouldn't want to talk to me for too long if I bust out a "Genki Dama." Just gotta know your audience, I guess. Then again, I haven't spoken about Dragon Ball with a real life person since like 2008.

This. If you're talking to some random or casual acquaintance about Dragon Ball, pronouncing Saiyan correctly and , talking about Genki Dama and Kame Sennin is just going be needlessly confusing and pretentious.

Though I've never had a convo about Dragon Ball irl beyond "x character was cool" or "x story arc was great"

[TrunksTrevelyan0064]

This. If you're talking to some random or casual acquaintance about Dragon Ball, pronouncing Saiyan correctly and , talking about Genki Dama and Kame Sennin is just going be needlessly confusing and pretentious.

My whole problem with the discrepancy between sub and dub is that using correct terminology shouldn't feel confusing and pretentious. If the dubs had been accurate all along, there wouldn't be any confusion to begin with. We'd all be on the same terms. This is why I DON'T have a problem with the dubs for, say, Naruto and Death Note. The terminology, scripts and characterizations are accurate enough, so there's no unnecessary confusion. I wish Dragon Ball had been treated the same way.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

You mentioned that this even affects the "hardcore fandom"--can a dub fan not be a hardcore fan? Is there some kind of language standard for when you're considered a "hardcore" fan versus a casual fan? I think someone who collects video releases, manga, and video games of the series is a hardcore fan and it doesn't matter where they're from or which version they prefer.

Yeah, there are dub fans who know why most of the home video releases are crap, can list out every single "official" power level, know the placement of every Cakemix Studios track used in the dub, know all the minutia differences between the original audio dub and remastered dub, and know every single Funimation actor and who they voice. The idea "hardcore' dub fans don't exist is silly.

I don't think TheGreatness25 is asking can a Dragon Ball fan not be a hardcore dub fan. The same would apply for any piece of media or international reversionary of it, yes of course you can.

The bigger question being asked, which is obviously more debatable is - can a Dragon Ball fan be a hardcore fan if their preference and default version of the show is their dub? To that end I would still say yes.

I'm a hardcore fan of the Westwood dub, which I grew up with and love, but I accept it has its flaws and is no substitute for the original Japanese version. It lacks the score that is part of Dragon Ball Z's DNA, the scripts are not accurate (not helped by the fact they are borrowed from Funimation with slught deviations), the voice actors while super talented are hindered by a rotating roster of directors under extreme time constraints, most of the castings are not based on the character's Toriyama wrote but are carried over from Funimation's earlier Saban-era miscastings and new castings were limited by the script they had to follow (Kirby Morrow had to play a heroic Goku because that's what Funimation's writers intended).

I accept all these flaws and enjoy the dub for what it is, a fun Saturday Morning Cartoon re-interpretation of TOEI's anime (which itself is based on Toriyama's manga). Like Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory (which Roald Dahl hated), which deviates from the Charlie and the Chocolate Factory novel, its a different take. I've watched the former many times but never read the latter. If I ever do I will not see the Mel Stuart film as the definitive version of that story, because its not, its an enjoyable alternate take in its own right. A supplement or neat extra if you will.

I'll always have a soft spot for the Westwood dub, as the Funimation dub loyalists always will for their version. That doesn't make us any less of a fan. As long as you respect the original Japanese version and are aware, for example what you call a Spirit Bomb is a Genki-Dama to another fan I don't see why the dub you like should invalidate you being a hardcore fan.

It's denying the differences between the dub and original that is the problem. I can respect fans that prefer the terminology or pronunciations in their dub, but not if they go out of their way to tell fans who prefer the Japanese version "it's not Go-Koo" it's "Go-Ku" as that's basically telling another fan Funimation knows better than TOEI, which wouldn't be right as they were the ones who created the anime to begin with. For that reason alone I respect TOEI for adapting Toriyama's manga in 1989 because if they didn't Ocean would have never had the chance to give me the dub I love, which I can enjoy in addition to the Japanese version but certainly not to replace it or expect other fans to see the Westwood dub or whatever dub they like as a replacement.

[TechExpert2021]

I think we all know the Barry Watson pronunciation of Saiyan is never going to go away. As much as the unreleased Ocean Kai dub is an attempt to faithfully represent the original Japanese version we know from the recent Anime Time Machine livestreams Karl Willems was adamant the "say-an" is far too iconic and that he would have pushed for it if there was any pushback from the producers.

Funimation had a chance to make terms like Makankōsappō, Kienzan and such standard when they were used early on in Kai only for them to back down later.

Shenron was called "Shen Long" in the Bang Zoom dub of Super though, so if for whatever reason we ever get alternate English dubs in the future it is possible we will hear some more accurate naming conventions like that, but it will be more of a novelty thing and won't be one of the names or terms that fans use every day.

Wasn’t that because Bandai insisted they keep the dub names?

I don't think Bandai insisted Funimation keep the dub names. My best assumption as to why they reverted the original Japanese names to the dub names in their dub of DBZ Kai after the Freeza arc is that they fear they'll alienate fans of the original 1999 DBZ dub. That is because the original dub gained massive popularity since the dub's Cartoon Network/Toonami airing back in 1999; as a result, they couldn't distance themselves from it, as fans who grew up with it have nostalgia for it (unless they truly admit the dub is bad like most people on this forum). They even have the nerve to retain the dub names of the attacks in their dub of Dragon Ball Super. However, thankfully, they went back to using the original Japanese attack names in their dub (under the Crunchyroll name) of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, if I'm sure.

[MasenkoHA]

. However, thankfully, they went back to using the original Japanese attack names in their dub (under the Crunchyroll name) of Dragon Ball Super: Super Hero, if I'm sure.

No, they used the dub names like Special Beam Cannon and Destructo Disk in Super Super Hero. They even referred to ki as power level at one point when they had gotten pretty good at using energy for ki and power levels for battle powers (as opposed to using power level as an umbrella term for both like they did for most of Z's dub) in Kai and the Super tv series.

[TheGreatness25]

This. If you're talking to some random or casual acquaintance about Dragon Ball, pronouncing Saiyan correctly and , talking about Genki Dama and Kame Sennin is just going be needlessly confusing and pretentious.

My whole problem with the discrepancy between sub and dub is that using correct terminology shouldn't feel confusing and pretentious. If the dubs had been accurate all along, there wouldn't be any confusion to begin with. We'd all be on the same terms. This is why I DON'T have a problem with the dubs for, say, Naruto and Death Note. The terminology, scripts and characterizations are accurate enough, so there's no unnecessary confusion. I wish Dragon Ball had been treated the same way.

While it would be great if these discrepancies didn't exist, the reality is that they do exist in a hige market. That's why dubisms continue to survive.

[GhostEmperorX]

This is equivalent to asking "Why is Shounen manga/anime the most popular among mainstream US audiences?".
In other words, a question that probably doesn't require much looking in to in order to arrive at an answer.

My whole problem with the discrepancy between sub and dub is that using correct terminology shouldn't feel confusing and pretentious. If the dubs had been accurate all along, there wouldn't be any confusion to begin with. We'd all be on the same terms. This is why I DON'T have a problem with the dubs for, say, Naruto and Death Note. The terminology, scripts and characterizations are accurate enough, so there's no unnecessary confusion. I wish Dragon Ball had been treated the same way.

Perhaps, but there's also the fact of Toriyama having made a generally silly & comedic work with a lot of nonsensical elements, not least of all certain names and naming conventions that definitely don't even translate all that well on their own, that exceeded his expectations in how popular it would become, so that sort of plays into it.
Of course, it's that very difficulty which even professionals at translating can have problems with that is the best argument for not handing it off to amateurs anyway.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

I think we all know the Barry Watson pronunciation of Saiyan is never going to go away. As much as the unreleased Ocean Kai dub is an attempt to faithfully represent the original Japanese version we know from the recent Anime Time Machine livestreams Karl Willems was adamant the "say-an" is far too iconic and that he would have pushed for it if there was any pushback from the producers.

Funimation had a chance to make terms like Makankōsappō, Kienzan and such standard when they were used early on in Kai only for them to back down later.

Shenron was called "Shen Long" in the Bang Zoom dub of Super though, so if for whatever reason we ever get alternate English dubs in the future it is possible we will hear some more accurate naming conventions like that, but it will be more of a novelty thing and won't be one of the names or terms that fans use every day.

Wasn’t that because Bandai insisted they keep the dub names?

I don't think Bandai insisted Funimation keep the dub names. My best assumption as to why they reverted the original Japanese names to the dub names in their dub of DBZ Kai after the Freeza arc is that they fear they'll alienate fans of the original 1999 DBZ dub.

With Kai it seems Funimation's original plan was to use dub names for the TV broadcasts and record the actors saying the original Japanese terms for the home video release as the latter naturally caters more to the purists.

I don't recall exactly what his words were but Chris Sabat mentioned Funimation was in a hurry when they were dubbing Kai. I'm sure part of this was the fact the Nicktoons and CW broadcasts (which used different cuts) as well as the DVD/Blu-Ray releases all came out within a short space of time. That's three versions of Kai Funimation's editors had to manage, and then of course the music scandal happened and they had to go back and remix everything with the Kikuchi score as they had a grand total of six versions of the same dub to sort through:

• Nicktoons cut with Yamamoto score
• CW cut with Yamanoto score
• Uncut/home video track with Yamamoto score
• Nicktoons cut with Kikuchi score
• CW cut with Kikuchi score
• Uncut/home video track with Kikuchi score

I have no doubt its because of this logistical nightmare we got lines clearly meant for kids TV like the infamous "dude, mah truck!!" finding it's way to the home releases. We also have the reverse with things like Piccolo saying "Special Beam Cannon" in the fight against Raditz on Nicktoons but say Makankōsappō in the recap before the next episode. That was before Yamamoto was caught and when the dub was only starting. If tight deadlines were a problem then I can only imagine what they must have been like later on when Nicktoons were probably hounding Funimation for more episodes and there was a need to retroactively sync the Kikuchi score to everything they'd done up to that point.

I guess when the dub attack names intended for TV continued to slip into the uncut tracks due to tight deadlines it just got to a point there was no going back and Funimation decided to just settle for their old naming conventions and keep things consistent from that point on.

I guess you could argue at any point Funimation could have just reinstated the original Japanese terms into the places dub names slipped into the uncut version. They were certainly no stranger to tweaking lines here and there for Z, but maybe they thought there was no point anymore and that if they could appeal to fans of their old dub at least one segment of the fandom would be happy even if Funimation alienated the purists they originally wanted to please.

I don't exactly agree with their decision to stop trying to please fans of the Japanese version, but I can guess I can empatize with Funimation that after all the stress managing all these versions of the show must have caused, whilst keeping the standards and practices people happy they didn't think it was worth it anymore.

Then of course we got the Super dub where Funimation was all about having fun again as they did on their Z dub and the rest is history.

[Saiya6Cit]

I accept all these flaws and enjoy the dub for what it is, a fun Saturday Morning Cartoon re-interpretation of TOEI's anime (which itself is based on Toriyama's manga).

Yeap pretty much. They are curious, they like mexican action figure bootleg toys, they are so horrible they are charming. It is a part of DB we can't deny it happened. To some people, those might be the only way they know how to name things. I find those differences interesting and yes, charming. In conclusion, it is ingrained because it is a culture at this point. Part of the Dragon Ball culture.

[Adamant]

The bigger question being asked, which is obviously more debatable is - can a Dragon Ball fan be a hardcore fan if their preference and default version of the show is their dub? To that end I would still say yes.

Thought experiment, though: If Funimation or whoever had renamed the dub something else, like "Zero and the Crystal Balls", would these "hardcore Dragonball fans" still claim to be Dragonball fans?
If no, then... they probably aren't actually fans of Dragonball, no.

[Dragon Ball Ireland]

The bigger question being asked, which is obviously more debatable is - can a Dragon Ball fan be a hardcore fan if their preference and default version of the show is their dub? To that end I would still say yes.

Thought experiment, though: If Funimation or whoever had renamed the dub something else, like "Zero and the Crystal Balls", would these "hardcore Dragonball fans" still claim to be Dragonball fans?
If no, then... they probably aren't actually fans of Dragonball, no.

As long as they are familiar with the source material yes they are. You could make the same argument about Pokémon fans the vast majority in English-speaking territories will call the main character Ash Ketchum and not "Satoshi", it doesn't mean they are not fans.

In any case I would strongly advise against telling anyone they are "not a Dragon Ball fan", its petty, juvenile, schoolyard bullying tactics that I think this forum should rise above. Let them enjoy any version of the show they like, once they are aware of what it is and have no pretensions about it being something its not (which I've said with my example of the Westwood dub I don't, I simply like it for what it is), and don't look down on people if they don't like the Japanese version. It's the people who spread that kind of toxicity that give anime fandoms a bad name.

[MasenkoHA]

This. If you're talking to some random or casual acquaintance about Dragon Ball, pronouncing Saiyan correctly and , talking about Genki Dama and Kame Sennin is just going be needlessly confusing and pretentious.

My whole problem with the discrepancy between sub and dub is that using correct terminology shouldn't feel confusing and pretentious. If the dubs had been accurate all along, there wouldn't be any confusion to begin with. We'd all be on the same terms. This is why I DON'T have a problem with the dubs for, say, Naruto and Death Note. The terminology, scripts and characterizations are accurate enough, so there's no unnecessary confusion. I wish Dragon Ball had been treated the same way.

I agree ofc, but it's also kind of a what's done is done situation

[Adamant]

In any case I would strongly advise against telling anyone they are "not a Dragon Ball fan", its petty, juvenile, schoolyard bullying tactics that I think this forum should rise above.

Are fans of Power Ranger "Super Sentai fans"? Are fans of Cardcaptors "Card Captor Sakura fans"? Are they bullying themselves if they agree they aren't?

These people are fans of one very specific revisioning they grew up on. They call themselves "Dragonball fans" because the revisioning was still call Dragonball by the revisors. Had the revisors renamed it something else, they'd have called themselves fans of that something else and fully agreed they weren't Dragonball fans.