The All-Purpose "Versus" Thread

[Berserker1921]

The Demon Realm is selected to join in the Tournament of Power.

The Team:

Spoiler:

1. Majin Kuu
2. Majin Duu
3. Glorio
4. Tamagami #1
5. Tamagami #2
6. Tamagami #3
7. King Kadan
8. Amazoness
9. Kadem
10. Marba

Assume that they have been training the entire time so scale them accordingly to that and assume they actually scale to the ToP fighters. Also assume that they have a Tertian Oculus, Join Bugs, and cookies at their disposal. How far do they get?

Assuming their training puts them at least on par with the top fighters in ToP, they would likely be around the level of high-tier teams like U6, U7 and U11. However, the true test is their adaptability and synergy against established ToP teams.

Against Universe 6: They should handle most of U6, but Kefla’s rapid power growth is a danger.

Against Universe 7: Goku and Vegeta’s adaptability, Freeza’s cunning, and Android 17’s resilience would make this a difficult matchup, but the Demon Realm’s team could at least push them to the brink. However, Goku and Vegeta would still be the biggest threats.

Against Universe 11: If they can stall long enough, they might force Jiren to exert himself early, but unless they have someone who can reach Ultra Instinct levels, Jiren remains their biggest obstacle.

If their power and teamwork are well-utilized, they could eliminate multiple universes before being halted by the strongest remaining teams. If the Tertian Oculus and Join Bugs are truly game-changing, they might even survive until the final moments. Their biggest challenge would be Goku and Jiren. It all depends on how broken their abilities actually are when applied in battle. They likely fall short at the very end.

Wouldn’t have Goku had chosen to fuse with Vegeta? I mean he rejected fusion entirely after fighting Beerus once. So God in theory would be miles above a hypothetical fused ssj3 or 4 vegito.

Goku was likely only considering SS1 Vegetto, since that’s the highest form Vegetto used in the Buu arc. Even though Goku and Vegeta had SS3 and SS2 respectively, there’s no confirmation that he was factoring those forms into a hypothetical fusion. Also, SS4 isn’t relevant to this discussion since it doesn’t exist in Super’s continuity.

If we’re strictly comparing SS3 Vegetto to SSG Goku, the question is whether the fusion multiplier combined with SS3’s boost outweighs SSG’s power. Given how extreme the fusion boost is, it’s not far-fetched to think SS3 Vegetto could still compete or even surpass SSG.

I bet Goku thought about it and thought it wasn’t worth it. Ssj3 Vegito would have not fared better than Ssjgod Goku. Technically, god absorbs five saiyan’s energies. Even before they performed the ritual fully, they claimed that Goku’s attention was the highest in the known universe.

[Hugo Boss]

That’s possible, but there’s no direct confirmation that Goku considered SS3 Vegetto when deciding against fusion. The only time Vegetto appeared in the Buu arc, he used SS1, so it’s reasonable to assume Goku was thinking along those lines.

As for the ritual, it’s true that it pooled the power of five Saiyans into Goku, but we don’t have an exact multiplier for it. Fusion, on the other hand, has always been an extreme boost, far greater than just adding two fighters’ powers together. Given how massive Vegetto’s base power is, his SS3 form would be significantly stronger than anything we saw from an unfused SS3 Goku.

SSG was undoubtedly a massive power-up, but we don’t know if it was so far beyond SS3 Vegetto that it rendered fusion irrelevant. If anything, later material suggests that fusion can still surpass SSG-tier fighters, considering how SS1 Gogeta was able to compete with opponents beyond that level.

[dragon boss z]

Buu saga base saiyans run a gauntlet.
How far do you think base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku make it? Each is fighting as an individual and gets healed between rounds.

1. suppressed final form Frieza.
2. 50% Frieza
3. 100% Frieza
4. ssj Trunks android saga
5. ssj Vegeta android saga
6. Android 18
7. Android 17
8. Android 16
9. Semi perfect Cell
10. super Vegeta
11. cell jr
12. ssj Goku cell games
13. perfect Cell
14. super perfect Cell
15. ssj2 Gohan cell games

I hope I don't have to go further

[ZombieVito]

Buu saga base saiyans run a gauntlet.
How far do you think base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku make it? Each is fighting as an individual and gets healed between rounds.

1. suppressed final form Frieza.
2. 50% Frieza
3. 100% Frieza
4. ssj Trunks android saga
5. ssj Vegeta android saga
6. Android 18
7. Android 17
8. Android 16
9. Semi perfect Cell
10. super Vegeta
11. cell jr
12. ssj Goku cell games
13. perfect Cell
14. super perfect Cell
15. ssj2 Gohan cell games

I hope I don't have to go further

All of them stop at 3.

I guess Goku can go up to 11 with Kaioken x20 but loses.

[dragon boss z]

Buu saga base saiyans run a gauntlet.
How far do you think base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku make it? Each is fighting as an individual and gets healed between rounds.

Spoiler:

1. suppressed final form Frieza.
2. 50% Frieza
3. 100% Frieza
4. ssj Trunks android saga
5. ssj Vegeta android saga
6. Android 18
7. Android 17
8. Android 16
9. Semi perfect Cell
10. super Vegeta
11. cell jr
12. ssj Goku cell games
13. perfect Cell
14. super perfect Cell
15. ssj2 Gohan cell games

I hope I don't have to go further

All of them stop at 3.

I guess Goku can go up to 11 with Kaioken x20 but loses.

So I guess you are going with the Beerus statement? I used to always agree with this, but now we have Daima that seemed to make it pretty clear base Goku/Vegeta>Piccolo and Shin, or that they are at least roughly on their level.

[ZombieVito]

So I guess you are going with the Beerus statement? I used to always agree with this, but now we have Daima that seemed to make it pretty clear base Goku/Vegeta>Piccolo and Shin, or that they are at least roughly on their level.

Of course. Nothing is confirmed in the show about their nerf so Beerus statement can still be true.

Base Mini Goku is stronger than Mini Shin but that doesn't mean that's true for their normal selves.

[dragon boss z]

So I guess you are going with the Beerus statement? I used to always agree with this, but now we have Daima that seemed to make it pretty clear base Goku/Vegeta>Piccolo and Shin, or that they are at least roughly on their level.

Of course. Nothing is confirmed in the show about their nerf so Beerus statement can still be true.

Base Mini Goku is stronger than Mini Shin but that doesn't mean that's true for their normal selves.

I feel like that's twisting things a bit. You must also think Glorio is only above kid Shin and not adult Shin?

[ZombieVito]

I feel like that's twisting things a bit. You must also think Glorio is only above kid Shin and not adult Shin?

Yes? Why would he be stronger than adult Shin?

[dragon boss z]

I feel like that's twisting things a bit. You must also think Glorio is only above kid Shin and not adult Shin?

Yes? Why would he be stronger than adult Shin?

It seems a bit like a leap in logic to say Shin would be nerfed significantly more than Goku. Then we also have base Goku>Glorio>Supreme Kai. Goku never said Glorio was only stronger than kid supreme Kai, so if Glorio was stronger than adult Supreme Kai it would go adult Goku>Glorio with lightning<=>base Goku>expected Glorio>adult supreme kai>kid supreme kai. Then we have adult base Vegeta doing better against giant Gomah than kid ssj4 Goku, who is astronomically above the Tamogamis, who are above Dabura, who is above Shin. I think everything in Daima shows base siayans>>>>>>>>Frieza, though I don't like it. I preferred it when they were under, but it's hard to argue for that now.

[ZombieVito]

I feel like that's twisting things a bit. You must also think Glorio is only above kid Shin and not adult Shin?

Yes? Why would he be stronger than adult Shin?

It seems a bit like a leap in logic to say Shin would be nerfed significantly more than Goku. Then we also have base Goku>Glorio>Supreme Kai. Goku never said Glorio was only stronger than kid supreme Kai, so if Glorio was stronger than adult Supreme Kai it would go adult Goku>Glorio with lightning<=>base Goku>expected Glorio>adult supreme kai>kid supreme kai. Then we have adult base Vegeta doing better against giant Gomah than kid ssj4 Goku, who is astronomically above the Tamogamis, who are above Dabura, who is above Shin. I think everything in Daima shows base siayans>>>>>>>>Frieza, though I don't like it. I preferred it when they were under, but it's hard to argue for that now.

The Tamagamis are only stronger than Dabura pre the Majin power up.

And as you said. Base Vegeta outperforms SS4 Mini Goku so they really got nerfed badly.

[dragon boss z]

The Tamagamis are only stronger than Dabura pre the Majin power up.

And as you said. Base Vegeta outperforms SS4 Mini Goku so they really got nerfed badly.

I think the Dabura statement was for the Dabura we know about as the statement is pointless otherwise, but that's not really here nor there.

Yes, Goku and Vegeta got nerfed badly, but you are arguing Shin got nerfed even worse than them.

[ZombieVito]

Yes, Goku and Vegeta got nerfed badly, but you are arguing Shin got nerfed even worse than them.

Nothing contradicts it so I don't see the harm. It preserves what Beerus said in BoG.

[dragon boss z]

Yes, Goku and Vegeta got nerfed badly, but you are arguing Shin got nerfed even worse than them.

Nothing contradicts it so I don't see the harm. It preserves what Beerus said in BoG.

Eh, I don't think many people would accept that logic. The only way I think Frieza>base Goku stands is if we learn that 100% came from Toriyama and then we also learn none of the notes he gave for Daima made it seem like base Goku>Shin/Piccolo and that all came from Toei.

[Hugo Boss]

Buu saga base saiyans run a gauntlet.
How far do you think base Goten, Trunks, Gohan, Vegeta, and Goku make it? Each is fighting as an individual and gets healed between rounds.

1. suppressed final form Frieza.
2. 50% Frieza
3. 100% Frieza
4. ssj Trunks android saga
5. ssj Vegeta android saga
6. Android 18
7. Android 17
8. Android 16
9. Semi perfect Cell
10. super Vegeta
11. cell jr
12. ssj Goku cell games
13. perfect Cell
14. super perfect Cell
15. ssj2 Gohan cell games

I hope I don't have to go further

How Far They Get (Assuming Base Goku > Piccolo)
1. Suppressed Final Form Freeza – Clear.
2. 50% Freeza – Clear.
3. 100% Freeza – Clear.
4. SSJ Trunks (Android Saga) – Goten and Trunks likely clear. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan clear.
5. SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga) – Goten and Trunks should win, but it could be difficult. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan clear.
6. Android 18 – Goten and Trunks likely stop here since she was stronger than them in base during the tournament. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan clear.
7. Android 17 – Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan clear.
8. Android 16 – Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan likely clear.
9. Semi Perfect Cell – Gohan struggles. Goku and Vegeta clear.
10. Super Vegeta – They stop here.

How Far They Get (Assuming Base Goku < Freeza)
1. Suppressed Final Form Freeza – Goten and Trunks barely clear. Gohan likely clears. Goku and Vegeta clear.
2. 50% Freeza – Goku and Vegeta win after some effort, but Goten, Trunks, and maybe even Gohan might lose.
3. 100% Freeza – They stop here.

[ZombieVito]

Eh, I don't think many people would accept that logic. The only way I think Frieza>base Goku stands is if we learn that 100% came from Toriyama and then we also learn none of the notes he gave for Daima made it seem like base Goku>Shin/Piccolo and that all came from Toei.

I really don't care if some people accept that or not. Nothing in Daima compared base Goku and Shin in their normal selves.

Also, Toriyama rewrote BoG and that Freeza line is in the film so it is from Toriyama.

[dragon boss z]

I really don't care if some people accept that or not. Nothing in Daima compared base Goku and Shin in their normal selves.

Also, Toriyama rewrote BoG and that Freeza line is in the film so it is from Toriyama.

I agree that the line almost definitely came from Toriyama, but the Glorio>Shin line probably came from him too and base kid Goku was comparable to or above Glorio. So it would go Frieza<Shin<Glorio<=base kid Goku<base adult Goku

[dragon boss z]

How Far They Get (Assuming Base Goku > Piccolo)
1. Suppressed Final Form Freeza – Clear.
2. 50% Freeza – Clear.
3. 100% Freeza – Clear.
4. SSJ Trunks (Android Saga) – Goten and Trunks likely clear. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan clear.
5. SSJ Vegeta (Android Saga) – Goten and Trunks should win, but it could be difficult. Goku, Vegeta and Gohan clear.
6. Android 18 – Goten and Trunks likely stop here since she was stronger than them in base during the tournament. Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan clear.
7. Android 17 – Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan clear.
8. Android 16 – Goku, Vegeta, and Gohan likely clear.
9. Semi Perfect Cell – Gohan struggles. Goku and Vegeta clear.
10. Super Vegeta – They stop here.

What makes you think Super Vegeta>Buu saga Piccolo?

[Yuji]

What proof is there Piccolo got significantly stronger than his encounter vs #17? Cell only mentions Vegeta and Trunks holding their own against the Cell Jrs. They seem to be in regular Super Saiyan in the manga too, not even Grade 2. Sure, he went into the ROSAT, but we don't see anything impressive from him. Years later in RF he's struggling against an opponent a rusty SS Gohan one shots -- he's still far below CG Super Saiyans at least until Superhero.

Ironically I think the best scaling we have for Piccolo is him being stronger than the kids (per Boo's absorption), who scale to the adults somewhat relatively. The kids can one shot 18, and therefore 17, which means so can Piccolo, but then again so could Super Vegeta.

[Hugo Boss]

What makes you think Super Vegeta>Buu saga Piccolo?

Piccolo’s strength is a bit too ambiguous and probably the most difficult to scale in the series.

While he definitely improved after training in the time chamber, there’s little concrete evidence suggesting he surpassed Super Vegeta. Cell specifically notes that only Vegeta and Trunks were holding their own against the Cell Jrs., implying Piccolo wasn’t on their level. Also, while he trained for seven years before the Buu saga, we don’t see any feats suggesting a massive jump in power.

Given that Android 16 was much stronger than Android 17, who was equally matched with Piccolo, and Super Vegeta and Semi Perfect Cell were significantly stronger than 16, it’s reasonable to place Super Vegeta above Piccolo unless there’s something more concrete proving otherwise.

Resurrection F is tricky because Piccolo struggling against an enemy on Zarbon and Dodoria’s level seems hard to justify, especially given his general portrayal in the original manga. If we go by RF and the Frost fight, it looks like Toriyama sees Piccolo as weaker than Namek Freeza, which fits how often he’s treated as an equal to base Gohan and Goku in other parts of Super.

[ZombieVito]

What proof is there Piccolo got significantly stronger than his encounter vs #17? Cell only mentions Vegeta and Trunks holding their own against the Cell Jrs. They seem to be in regular Super Saiyan in the manga too, not even Grade 2. Sure, he went into the ROSAT, but we don't see anything impressive from him. Years later in RF he's struggling against an opponent a rusty SS Gohan one shots -- he's still far below CG Super Saiyans at least until Superhero.

Ironically I think the best scaling we have for Piccolo is him being stronger than the kids (per Boo's absorption), who scale to the adults somewhat relatively. The kids can one shot 18, and therefore 17, which means so can Piccolo, but then again so could Super Vegeta.

He managed to hold his own against the Cell Juniors. Not as well as Vegeta and Future Trunks of course but he still wasn't one shotted or anything.