Trunks and Goten are weaker than A18

[Piramid]

The android is stronger.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks are much weaker than 18, but I have no doubt that they are somewhat weaker. Why? Because when 18 finds out who they are after they transform into SSJ, even knowing that SSJ is an increase in their power, she doesn't seem worried about losing the fight. She even smiles when she finds out who they are.

Remember, she can't sense ki, so she has to rely on what she sees. If she isn't afraid of losing despite them being stronger in SSJ, then she must have seen herself as superior to the kids when they were in base form.

She only starts to think she might lose the fight when she sees the ki attack they launch at her, but before that, she doesn't think about it.

She can sense ki. She senses Majin Vegeta.

If she could sense ki, she would have realized that the kids were incredibly strong in SSJ as soon as they transformed. She wouldn’t have noticed it just by seeing the feat of Trunks throwing a weak ki blast.

[dragon boss z]

The android is stronger.

I'm not saying that Goten and Trunks are much weaker than 18, but I have no doubt that they are somewhat weaker. Why? Because when 18 finds out who they are after they transform into SSJ, even knowing that SSJ is an increase in their power, she doesn't seem worried about losing the fight. She even smiles when she finds out who they are.

Remember, she can't sense ki, so she has to rely on what she sees. If she isn't afraid of losing despite them being stronger in SSJ, then she must have seen herself as superior to the kids when they were in base form.

She only starts to think she might lose the fight when she sees the ki attack they launch at her, but before that, she doesn't think about it.

She can sense ki. She senses Majin Vegeta.

If she could sense ki, she would have realized that the kids were incredibly strong in SSJ as soon as they transformed. She wouldn’t have noticed it just by seeing the feat of Trunks throwing a weak ki blast.

You might be right, but you are forgetting even after transforming they would not be at full power. They have to specifically flex their ki like they did in front of Piccolo. Piccolo was not shocked until they did that. This goes for all of the Z fighters, they aren’t full power unless actively fighting or powering up.

[Super-Shenron]

Even in the manga Buu's ki was stated to be going up, not down, when going from Super Buu to kid Buu. Saying it was only for Buff Buu is cope since that Buu never fights and it would be pointless to hype that form up.

You bring up Occam's razor but this is a perfect case for Occam's razor telling us Kid Buu>Super Buu. The only evidence for Super Buu>Kid Buu is the evidence for Super Buu over ssj3 Goku and Goku being more afraid of Super Buu. Goku admits he underestimated Kid Buu and they should have fused on him, so that debunks the Goku's initial power interpretation

I mean, it is pretty damning evidence. We're talking about a battle crazy Saiyan who usually wouldn't turn down an opportunity to fight strong opponents one-on-one, practically crapping bricks at the idea of taking Super Boo on by himself, to the point he condemns Vegeta for destroying their permanent fusion method twice (once in front of their enemy) and suggested trying out the fusion dance, a method he knows for a fact Vegeta never practiced and risks leaving them stuck as a weakling. Me, personally? I find that to be a far more convincing and straightforward narrative than your simulteanous suggestions that Goku sensed Kid Boo to be stronger than Super Boo, yet also initially think he's not strong enough to warrant merging anymore.

Mind you, even after Kid Boo blew up the planet, killed his family, and chased them on the Supreme Kai planet, Goku and Vegeta still played Rock-Paper-Scissors to decide who would fight him. Sure, they were wrong to underestimate him, but the fact remains Goku went from trying to skip fighting Super Boo alone to not only trying to fight Kid Boo head on, but also actually put up a good fight until his stamina dropped quicker than he expected. Again, this is quite telling, and it weakens the idea that Kid Boo was holding back his power against Goku, which in itself is based on nothing but the fact he taunted him when he regenerated slowly, knowing full well he couldn't kill him by that point. Even when he's faced with an attack that can actually kill him, we're not given any indication he powered up.

All that, of course, only matters as far as the original manga is concerned. As far as modern Dragon Ball goes, I agree with you, if only because Toriyama hadn't written the original manga for years by then. Neither Super's anime nor Daima took long to recontextualize Goku as the strongest among Z-Fighters (which by extension, puts Kid Boo above Super Boo), and even Movie Battle of Gods (which was supposed to have the Z-Fighters at peak power) had Goku basically being treated as the benchmark with an elaborate fight scene to establish Beerus' threat as opposed to Gohan being quite as important. It's come to a point I don't think we can ignore the conclusion Toriyama seem to have come years after the original run.

[dragon boss z]

I mean, it is pretty damning evidence. We're talking about a battle crazy Saiyan who usually wouldn't turn down an opportunity to fight strong opponents one-on-one, practically crapping bricks at the idea of taking Super Boo on by himself, to the point he condemns Vegeta for destroying their permanent fusion method twice (once in front of their enemy) and suggested trying out the fusion dance, a method he knows for a fact Vegeta never practiced and risks leaving them stuck as a weakling. Me, personally? I find that to be a far more convincing and straightforward narrative than your simulteanous suggestions that Goku sensed Kid Boo to be stronger than Super Boo, yet also initially think he's not strong enough to warrant merging anymore.

Mind you, even after Kid Boo blew up the planet, killed his family, and chased them on the Supreme Kai planet, Goku and Vegeta still played Rock-Paper-Scissors to decide who would fight him. Sure, they were wrong to underestimate him, but the fact remains Goku went from trying to skip fighting Super Boo alone to not only trying to fight Kid Boo head on, but also actually put up a good fight until his stamina dropped quicker than he expected. Again, this is quite telling, and it weakens the idea that Kid Boo was holding back his power against Goku, which in itself is based on nothing but the fact he taunted him when he regenerated slowly, knowing full well he couldn't kill him by that point. Even when he's faced with an attack that can actually kill him, we're not given any indication he powered up.

All that, of course, only matters as far as the original manga is concerned. As far as modern Dragon Ball goes, I agree with you, if only because Toriyama hadn't written the original manga for years by then. Neither Super's anime nor Daima took long to recontextualize Goku as the strongest among Z-Fighters (which by extension, puts Kid Boo above Super Boo), and even Movie Battle of Gods (which was supposed to have the Z-Fighters at peak power) had Goku basically being treated as the benchmark with an elaborate fight scene to establish Beerus' threat as opposed to Gohan being quite as important. It's come to a point I don't think we can ignore the conclusion Toriyama seem to have come years after the original run.

Goku sensed Super Buu's ki was going up when transforming to Buff Buu, but then underestimated Kid Buu because he shrunk. Yes, it was a size thing. Vegeta did the same thing with Cell. Once the fight started Vegeta and Goku admitted they underestimated kid Buu and they actually needed fusion.

The rock paper scissors thing was before they discovered how strong kid Buu actually was.

Yes, as more new material comes out more thing point to Goku and kid Buu being the strongest. But even the original manga has evidence for it, like Goku being called number 1 at the end. Toriyama was a forgetful person, it's entirely possible he straight up forgot he had Goku say he couldn't beat Super Buu.

[Dragon15]

They didn’t underestimate kid buu. Goku ssj3 was equal to kid buu in power. He only lost because kid buu can regenerate a lot and because ssj3 can’t be used for a long time and use a lot of ki. But they weren’t wrong in the estimation of kid buu power.
What they got wrong was kid buu stamina.

[Super-Shenron]

I mean, it is pretty damning evidence. We're talking about a battle crazy Saiyan who usually wouldn't turn down an opportunity to fight strong opponents one-on-one, practically crapping bricks at the idea of taking Super Boo on by himself, to the point he condemns Vegeta for destroying their permanent fusion method twice (once in front of their enemy) and suggested trying out the fusion dance, a method he knows for a fact Vegeta never practiced and risks leaving them stuck as a weakling. Me, personally? I find that to be a far more convincing and straightforward narrative than your simulteanous suggestions that Goku sensed Kid Boo to be stronger than Super Boo, yet also initially think he's not strong enough to warrant merging anymore.

Mind you, even after Kid Boo blew up the planet, killed his family, and chased them on the Supreme Kai planet, Goku and Vegeta still played Rock-Paper-Scissors to decide who would fight him. Sure, they were wrong to underestimate him, but the fact remains Goku went from trying to skip fighting Super Boo alone to not only trying to fight Kid Boo head on, but also actually put up a good fight until his stamina dropped quicker than he expected. Again, this is quite telling, and it weakens the idea that Kid Boo was holding back his power against Goku, which in itself is based on nothing but the fact he taunted him when he regenerated slowly, knowing full well he couldn't kill him by that point. Even when he's faced with an attack that can actually kill him, we're not given any indication he powered up.

All that, of course, only matters as far as the original manga is concerned. As far as modern Dragon Ball goes, I agree with you, if only because Toriyama hadn't written the original manga for years by then. Neither Super's anime nor Daima took long to recontextualize Goku as the strongest among Z-Fighters (which by extension, puts Kid Boo above Super Boo), and even Movie Battle of Gods (which was supposed to have the Z-Fighters at peak power) had Goku basically being treated as the benchmark with an elaborate fight scene to establish Beerus' threat as opposed to Gohan being quite as important. It's come to a point I don't think we can ignore the conclusion Toriyama seem to have come years after the original run.

Goku sensed Super Buu's ki was going up when transforming to Buff Buu, but then underestimated Kid Buu because he shrunk. Yes, it was a size thing. Vegeta did the same thing with Cell. Once the fight started Vegeta and Goku admitted they underestimated kid Buu and they actually needed fusion.

The rock paper scissors thing was before they discovered how strong kid Buu actually was.

Yes, as more new material comes out more thing point to Goku and kid Buu being the strongest. But even the original manga has evidence for it, like Goku being called number 1 at the end. Toriyama was a forgetful person, it's entirely possible he straight up forgot he had Goku say he couldn't beat Super Buu.

Sorry, but I find all that difficult to buy into. Sure, Vegeta commented on Kid Boo's height, but if indeed Kid Boo's power didn't change from when Super Boo turned Buff, then I don't see how his size is supposed to help them with his power or regeneration when their whole goal was to decrease his strength so they could manage something, which is what Goku thought upon his transformation. His size doesn't hold up as the main reason to underestimate him after he destroyed Earth with an attack Goku couldn't deflect, yet he explicitely refuses to merge because Kid Boo himself isn't merged either, for the sake of a one-on-one using their own strength, and even after the supposed discovery of his strength, it's not as though he's dominating Goku until after his stamina dropped.

Honestly, running with a narrative that relies on the assumption Toriyama forgot about Super Boo (even when Goku goes out of his way to admit he is stronger than Fat Boo, rather than any kind of lie he could have told about Super Boo) rather than a straightforward narrative that Super Boo > Kid Boo in the original run seems inconsistent with the Occam's Razor principle you've brought up earlier. Especially when the closest thing of an "evidence" we have here is a speech about Vegeta acknowledging Goku to be better than him not just on a power, but philosophical perspective on what it means to be a Saiyan, rather than a serious claim about him being the strongest ever. It says a lot that it isn't featured in the Strength Checker, and it's honestly sad to watch the anime of Super conflate it with a general power statement, to the point of even having Vegeta call himself n°2. We're talking about the guy who probably can't even beat Good Boo, let alone Fat Boo.

But it is what it is.

[dragon boss z]

Sorry, but I find all that difficult to buy into. Sure, Vegeta commented on Kid Boo's height, but if indeed Kid Boo's power didn't change from when Super Boo turned Buff, then I don't see how his size is supposed to help them with his power or regeneration when their whole goal was to decrease his strength so they could manage something, which is what Goku thought upon his transformation. His size doesn't hold up as the main reason to underestimate him after he destroyed Earth with an attack Goku couldn't deflect, yet he explicitely refuses to merge because Kid Boo himself isn't merged either, for the sake of a one-on-one using their own strength, and even after the supposed discovery of his strength, it's not as though he's dominating Goku until after his stamina dropped.

Honestly, running with a narrative that relies on the assumption Toriyama forgot about Super Boo (even when Goku goes out of his way to admit he is stronger than Fat Boo, rather than any kind of lie he could have told about Super Boo) rather than a straightforward narrative that Super Boo > Kid Boo in the original run seems inconsistent with the Occam's Razor principle you've brought up earlier. Especially when the closest thing of an "evidence" we have here is a speech about Vegeta acknowledging Goku to be better than him not just on a power, but philosophical perspective on what it means to be a Saiyan, rather than a serious claim about him being the strongest ever. It says a lot that it isn't featured in the Strength Checker, and it's honestly sad to watch the anime of Super conflate it with a general power statement, to the point of even having Vegeta call himself n°2. We're talking about the guy who probably can't even beat Good Boo, let alone Fat Boo.

But it is what it is.

Kid Buu's power level did probably go down, but only because his power was hidden. We see with Fat Buu his power spikes when angry.

It probably goes

suppressed Kid Buu<Super Buu<Buff Buu<=>full power kid Buu

I think you are confused, Toriyama forgetting is not needed for Kid Buu>Super Buu, only Goku>Super Buu. There is no evidence Kid Buu is only as strong as Goku. Occam's Razor tells us Kid Buu>Super Buu. So it would go Kid Buu>Super Buu>ssj3 Goku, if we go by that. There is basically no evidence Super Buu>Kid Buu. You would have to prove Kid Buu is as weak as Goku for that.

[Super-Shenron]

Kid Buu's power level did probably go down, but only because his power was hidden. We see with Fat Buu his power spikes when angry.

It probably goes

suppressed Kid Buu<Super Buu<Buff Buu<=>full power kid Buu

I think you are confused, Toriyama forgetting is not needed for Kid Buu>Super Buu, only Goku>Super Buu. There is no evidence Kid Buu is only as strong as Goku. Occam's Razor tells us Kid Buu>Super Buu. So it would go Kid Buu>Super Buu>ssj3 Goku, if we go by that. There is basically no evidence Super Buu>Kid Buu. You would have to prove Kid Buu is as weak as Goku for that.

See, here's the thing: from the moment we acknowledge Kid Boo's power most likely went down, we have little to no reason to assume it went back up, let alone above the level Super Boo has displayed, which was apparently enough for Goku not to try to take him on at all, as opposed to actually fighting and being the only one to be a match for Kid Boo until his stamina dropped, and no further statement in the manga acknowledging he got any stronger than this since then. You're asking me to prove he was using his full power, when nothing suggests he wasn't to begin with.

I'm sorry, but that's not how Occam's Razor works.

[Dragon15]

You should open a new topic.

[dragon boss z]

See, here's the thing: from the moment we acknowledge Kid Boo's power most likely went down, we have little to no reason to assume it went back up, let alone above the level Super Boo has displayed, which was apparently enough for Goku not to try to take him on at all, as opposed to actually fighting and being the only one to be a match for Kid Boo until his stamina dropped, and no further statement in the manga acknowledging he got any stronger than this since then. You're asking me to prove he was using his full power, when nothing suggests he wasn't to begin with.

I'm sorry, but that's not how Occam's Razor works.

The reason we can assume it went up (it didn't actually go up he was just suppressing his power like Fat Buu already showed before) is that both Goku and Vegeta admitted they underestimated Buu. You are not using Occam's Razor correctly. Super Buu was stated to power up while transforming into kid Buu. Buff Buu never fights, saying the statement applied only to him is silly. Kid Buu is called the most dangerous Buu in the manga, the strongest in the anime and multiple guides. Toriyama says he likes to make the smaller enemies stronger. ALL, literally ALL statements and evidence point to kid buu being stronger. Occam's Razor say kid Buu is stronger.

You should open a new topic.

You are right, this will be my last post here.

Super Shenron if you want to continue this PM me or start a new threat, but I think this argument has been argued to completion imo.

[Super-Shenron]

Super Shenron if you want to continue this PM me or start a new threat, but I think this argument has been argued to completion imo.

I think so too. Best to agree to disagree.