Opinion on SSJ4

johnnyboy · Post by **johnnyboy** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:03 pm

We all know about it, but have they taken the whole "super saiyan" thing too far with SSJ4? Do you think they should have stopped at SSJ3? While we're on the topic of GT, what else do you think ruined the whole Dragonball/Z saga?

Rockman · Post by **Rockman** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 10:54 pm

Here are the things I don't like:

- Dragon Ball GT is mostly about the saiyans, and androids. Baby was a machine, Super 17 was a machine, and if I'm correct Luud was a machine. I wanted the series to be longer and to have more characters aside from saiyans and androids.

- The regenerate thing. Ever since the Cell saga in DBZ, practically every enemy can regenerate: Cell, Buu, Baby (in actual form), and Omega Shenron with one of the Dragon's abilities.

- The recipe. Someone on the other board I go to mentioned this.

A new enemy appears, the character is not strong enough to defeat him. He reaches a new level, and defeats the enemy.

A new enemy appears, the character is not strong enough to defeat him. He reaches a new level, and defeats the enemy.

By GT, this recipe is played out.

- Afterlife

I think the whole life after death thing is stupid. In DBZ, Vegeta was dead, yet he was allowed to return to Earth to stop Buu because it was a crisis. I guess if Goku was the only one left and he died, he would be allowed to return to Earth? Isn't that like being immortal? Vegeta was dead and yet he can fight something thats living? Seems unrealistic.

Aside from the things I don't like, I think the series is good enough, that's why I'm a fan.

EDIT - I added this. Goten and Gohan have the same face. The only thing thats distinguishes them is the hair.

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Tue Feb 03, 2004 11:08 pm

"Unrealistic" would be a rather large understatement. Death in Dragonball is several steps beyond ludicrous.

Gohan and Goten do have slightly different faces. Goten has open eyes, and Gohan has fully outlined ones.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:11 am

The only thing I can say I don't like about GT is well, GT. I mean, just the way the series was presented, what it was about, the sagas, everything. Plus the fact that it really took everything about DB and DBZ and just broke all the rules. As for DBZ, the only complaint I can think of would just be how Tenshinhan, Chiaotzu, and Yamucha weren't around towards the end. For DB, no complaints!

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:25 am

YES. I agree. The death thing by Buu is handled more carelessly than anything else the series portrayed. Here you have Lord Kaiou saying not to worry about training too hard (to Tien, Piccolo, Yamucha, and Choatzu) because you can't die again in the afterworld. Then later, in the Buu Saga, Buu somehow teleports to the afterworld and Kaiou says, "Oh no! We're all going to die." Not to mention that Goku can't stay on Earth when his "time" is up, but can somehow just teleport to the Kaioushin planet and hang out with other living beings over there. {Also, we'll have Vegita say, "I'm going to kill you, Kararotto." about a million times as if he has no clue or is so blind that he can't see the halo over Goku's head.} And the fact that the supposed "gods of the universe who could easily defeat Furiza" have no idea what teleportation is, but some weird-ass creatures on Yardarat do or at least figured it out before they did? I mean, if THEY (the Kaioushins, the gods of everything) didn't create the other races, then who the Hell did? Must be some beings in the life after the afterlife that we would have learned about if Toriyama continued the series.

And also, the whole regeneration thing annoyed me as well. I was fine with Cell doing it. Made for some great scenes---Vegita blowing into him with his Final Flash, Goku decapitating him, Gohan's HUGE counter KameHameHa, and later was used in conjunction with his Saiyan cells to add one of the craziest plot twists in the entire series. Then by Buu, its played out. "He is Cell. Only...he can regenerate without looking like he's in pain. In fact, he'll smile." Big deal. I've seen it already. "Oh wait...he's going to absorb someone? No way! And not only that, he doesn't stop when he's perfect and has two androids, he can just keep absorbing whoever. Oh crap... a SSJ Gotenks(I hated SS3, btw)? Not a problem. This guy Buu can just wrap him up and shrink the buggers inside his body and keep doing that to everybody he fights when he can't change them into junk food. It'll be cool. Not only that, but Buu gets to be reincarnated for to help our next series while the other guys like Cell and Furiza just rot in "jail" in Hell. And we won't explain anything."

BTW, I think Raditzu's face looks closer to Vegita's than Goten's does to Gohan's. Sorry for the rant-eque response. Thanks to anyone who actually read this.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 12:50 am

You're welcome!

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:19 am

"You're".

Sorry, but this is the one grammatical thing that makes me want to kill people and hurt puppies. I think it deserves it's own special heading in the rules list. And I think anyone who does it should be hanged by the next until they are, like, totally dead. Yo.

Post by **SaiyaJedi** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 1:29 am

PsyLiam wrote:"You're".

Sorry, but this is the one grammatical thing that makes me want to kill people and hurt puppies. I think it deserves it's own special heading in the rules list. And I think anyone who does it should be hanged by the next until they are, like, totally dead. Yo.

"Necks."

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:04 am

I knew I would do something like that.

But...

Actually, that wasn't a mistake. "Next" is a popular high street clothing retailer, and the expression "hanged by the next" obviously is some kind of slang, meaning that they should be hung via their clothing.

Yes.

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:09 am

Pysliam: I've already corrected my post up above. Thank-you for pointing out my grammatical error, but you'll have to excuse my "one" slip-up after a hundred or so posts, as I've been awake for about 30 hours studying for a test that I wrote this evening, so I think I'm allowed one little error though.

Now I think I'll go to bed. Goodnight!

PsyLiam · Post by **PsyLiam** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:13 am

Surely the test can't have been that hard if you got to write it yourself?

Jerseymilk · Post by **Jerseymilk** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 2:17 am

Stop twisting my words you, you..."twisting-of-words-for-your-own-pleasure-man"! You know, I.....ZZZZZZZZZZZ

Jakez04 · Post by **Jakez04** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 4:48 pm

I think the whole GT was okay it just seem a bit fake to me. Like there was something missing form it. You guys know what I mean of is it just me.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:30 pm

Actually, a person that's dead CAN be killed. When Vegeta was going to fight Kid Buu, Goku told him to be careful, that since he's dead, if he dies again his soul will be erased from existence. As far as I can tell, from Goku's ability to remain SSJ3 while dead but not while alive, and from the training at Kaiou's, a person who is dead cannot die from exhaustion or overexertion. Their ki seems to reach a low point and not go any further down. A sort of inexhaustible ki source.

As for GT and the Super Saiya-jins... I don't think it should have gone past Goku achieving it. When he became 'The Legend' it was awesome. When everybody else did, it lost its significance. SSJ3 and SSJ4 were, frankly, some of the ugliest designs for the series. SSJ3 looks neanderthal and SSJ4 is just... awful. Red fur, punk clothes (and these are middle-aged men, too), red eyeliner, black manes of hair, evil expressions... How does any of that fit in with the proud Vegeta and the pure-of-heart Goku?

Rockman · Post by **Rockman** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 5:47 pm

You know how Bulma and Chi-Chi fought over who was cooler as Super Saiyan 4, Goku or Vegeta? I would have to say Vegeta looked cooler though. As for the age thing, if you count how many years pass throughout Dragon Ball Z, Goku and Vegeta should look much older than they appear. Goku should be like in his mid 50s.

A year passes before the fight with the Saiyans.
A few months pass before Namek.
A few years pass before Frieza lands on Earth with King Cold.
A few years pass before the Androids arrive.
A few years pass, and Gohan is a teenager.
More years pass after Dragon Ball Z ends before GT begins.

I don't know the exact amount of the years for some of these, but if you add them up, and go along with an estimate of Goku's age as an adult, Goku should be pretty old by the time GT begins.

Alias · Post by **Alias** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 6:04 pm

By the time GT started, Vegeta was about 63, maybe 64. As for Goku, he's quite a bit younger physically than Vegeta because he spent a total of eight years dead in Z, not aging during that point. He also was five years younger than Vegeta when they first met, which became six when Vegeta spent two years in the Room of S&T instead of just one like Goku did.

The reason they stay so young in appearance, as Vegeta explained to Bulma before the 28th Budoukai, is because the prime of a Saiya-jin's life is extended due to battle. They don't age at the same rate that humans do.

Dayspring · Post by **Dayspring** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 8:08 pm

On top of which they have a longer adolescence than humans.

As for the death thing: You die once and only once to go to heaven/hell. Krillin+Yamcha, etc in heaven is all anime filler. If you die when dead then you simply cease to exist.

Speaking of Hell: damn Super 17 saga in GT! What's with Freeza and Cell still being dead?! It took Boo only a year to reincarnate! Cell and Freeza are 00ber weaker in comparison but are still there! Gero as well! AARGH!

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:12 pm

Alias wrote:Actually, a person that's dead CAN be killed. When Vegeta was going to fight Kid Buu, Goku told him to be careful, that since he's dead, if he dies again his soul will be erased from existence. As far as I can tell, from Goku's ability to remain SSJ3 while dead but not while alive, and from the training at Kaiou's, a person who is dead cannot die from exhaustion or overexertion. Their ki seems to reach a low point and not go any further down. A sort of inexhaustible ki source.

While I do remember Goku explaining that to Vegita (and knew someone would bring that part up and I'm glad you did), it still doesn't address what Kaiou-samma had told the Z warriors early in the series about death-- that you can't die twice. Besides that, am I the only one here that thinks dying twice (once in body, the next in spirit) is completely retarded and reeks of nothing more than... do I dare say it?...yes I will... laziness in writing? I mean, it's like they took out the consequences of dying (as if the Dragon Balls didn't do that already). The death scenes become sterile if you know you'll just see them again, anyways. But back to the Vegita out of existence idea. Even the manner in which Goku explained the concept to Vegita was half-assed and thrown together, "Oh...by the way, Vegita, be careful this time because if he kills you again, you really will be screwed this time." He just says it almost as an afterthought, real nonchalant-like considering the ramifications. You'd think he'd tell him BEFORE the battle at least. And while they did give a reason, my rant was more of a complaint on how over the top the series had grown by the end of the Buu Saga, not so much that reasons were never provided (because many times they were not, hence the "and we won't explain anything" comment).

Take for example, Goku's teleportation. While I did forget in my earlier post that the Kaioushin could teleport, I'd still like to know both how Goku can just rome around wherever even though he's "dead" or "dead part 1" or whatever. He just teleports to Kaioushins planet despite his "dead" status and despite the fact he has never been to the planet. And don't say something like, "Oh, he was locking on to Gohan's ki." That's nonsense. Goku even explains earlier that he can only teleport to somewhere where he had previously been.

And I agree with you, Dayspring. The reincarnation thing is left more than a little ambiguous. But I'll go a step farther. Why is it that Cell, Furiza, and the Ginyus or whoever even have their bodies in the afterlife? When Goku dies, it is explained that only great and noble warriors are allowed to keep their "bodies" and train in the afterlife. And for those who want to shout "anime filler", even Piccolo told Vegita before he killed himself that he could not keep his body like Son was able to. I mean, remember when Goku fell into Hell? All those white clouds running around were souls. Now, all of a sudden he goes back to Hell to confront Furiza and Cell and they all magically have their bodies and whatnot. But what bothers me most, is Toei/Akira Toriyama/ whoever don't even bother to explain anything.

Post by **TripleRach** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:37 pm

SonGohan-san wrote:Take for example, Goku's teleportation. While I did forget in my earlier post that the Kaioushin could teleport, I'd still like to know both how Goku can just rome around wherever even though he's "dead" or "dead part 1" or whatever. He just teleports to Kaioushins planet despite his "dead" status and despite the fact he has never been to the planet. And don't say something like, "Oh, he was locking on to Gohan's ki." That's nonsense. Goku even explains earlier that he can only teleport to somewhere where he had previously been.

Actually, it makes some sense. Kaioushin's planet is probably somewhere within the afterlife, like Kaiou's was, which would explain how he'd be allowed to get there. As for his teleportation, when does he say he can only go places he's been previously? I only recall the ki thing, but correct me if I'm wrong. I know that he had never been to the new Planet Nameck, but he was able to teleport there to bring Dende to Earth.

SonGohan-san · Post by **SonGohan-san** » Wed Feb 04, 2004 9:42 pm

You know, I could be wrong about the teleportation, but I could have sworn he said that when he first demonstrated it.

Yeah, about the Kaioushin planet, I use that excuse too. But that's my whole point, you're not really sure, are you?

I mean, would it have killed everyone to take three seconds and have Goku say something like, "Wow, I can get here, I guess its between the real world and the afterworld." But he's never that specific, so unfortunately, we are left guessing. And this sort of thing is prevalent throughout the entire Buu era.

Kanzenshuu

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