Gohan vs. Dabura

[Kaboom]

I may have to go back and read it again but I swear when Gohan powers up at that time, he states that he's at full power.

What else could he have meant by that?

Full power... as a Super Saiyan?

But in that case, it's possible he did manage to jump up to Super Saiyan 2 just for the attempt to destroy it. Auras tend to change and "overwrite" their normal appearance under such special circumstances.

But then that would raise the question of why he was back to SSj1 right afterwards.

[Savage68]

Because he used an assload of ki with that Kamehameha, I think.

I'm starting to lean towards the idea of Gohan being SSj 2 during that blast, as well. Plus, Kaioshin later tells Kibito that Gohan used power that he didn't get to see. Kibito already saw SSj 2 Gohan, so no SSj 1 blast would be stronger than that.

[Son_Gohan]

Full power... as a Super Saiyan?

But in that case, it's possible he did manage to jump up to Super Saiyan 2 just for the attempt to destroy it. Auras tend to change and "overwrite" their normal appearance under such special circumstances.

But then that would raise the question of why he was back to SSj1 right afterwards.

When you say it like that, sounds like you're saying he could've transformed at will anytime.

Which contradicts a lot of which was said earlier, cause if we go by that possibility, that means he transformed into it even faster than he did at the tournament.

Hmm, there was no physical change though, there has to be a physical change to prove that a transformation occurred. Gohan looks the same as he did before, during and after he fires the Kamehameha. Auras aren't what cause the transformation.

[Savage68]

When you say it like that, sounds like you're saying he could've transformed at will anytime.

That's because he could, unless you missed the whole deal with him confidently and effortlessly transforming to SSj 2 without a catalyst. He didn't have that much of a reason to before(he was only equal to Dabura, it's not like he was weaker), and couldn't after because he used up a lot of stamina and ki.

[Rocketman]

Because he used an assload of ki with that Kamehameha, I think.

I'm starting to lean towards the idea of Gohan being SSj 2 during that blast, as well. Plus, Kaioshin later tells Kibito that Gohan used power that he didn't get to see. Kibito already saw SSj 2 Gohan, so no SSj 1 blast would be stronger than that.

Supreme Kai couldn't find his ass with both hands. Don't trust anything he says about characters' power.

[Savage68]

Uh...what? Just because he's not the best at gauging ki doesn't mean he's completely off about something that was obviously the strongest point Gohan was at so far.

[Xyex]

There's also one out of universe possibility to this that I've considered several times before. It's quite possible that SSJ2 wasn't considered by Toriyama to be an actual full out transformation just yet. Not until Goku goes SSJ3 do we actually see SSJ2 quantified as such. It's possible that at this point SSJ2 was merely Super Saiya-jin with a ginormous amount of power beyond what standard SSJ would grant. In this case the sparks would not be a sign of the form but a sign of being beyond a certain level of power, a level that Gohan simply could not reach at this point, in part due to lack of training, without his anger boost.

The minor cosmetic changes between SSJ1 and SSJ2 could help to support this concept as well. The reason they don't change much between the two is the same as the reason they don't change much between SSJ, SSJU, and SSJU2. It's still SSJ but just an 'alternate version' of the form, not a full out transformation. At least, not until SSJ3 is brought into the picture and Toriyama decides to make it as such.

Gohan's SSJ2 transformation at the Cell Games even helps to give the form such a feeling. If you look at Goku and Vegeta's SSJ hair styles, Gohan's isn't quite as spiky or tall. In fact, it doesn't really do much but turn blonde between base and SSJ. Note that even the SSJU forms display thicker and spikier hair than standard SSJ, so it seems implied that the closer you get to maximum SSJ power the spikier your hair gets.

Granted, once SSJ3 is brought in, and the forms are all distinguished as independent forms, this is made to not be the case. But if it was the initial concept Toriyama had for what "SSJ2" was then it would explain a great deal about Gohan in the Buu Saga. At the tournament he had time to power-up to a level strong enough to display the sparks, after that he did not. Not until firing his attack on Buu's egg, but by expending that much power on his attack he no longer had enough power in reserve to display the sparks then, either.

[Savage68]

It's quite possible that SSJ2 wasn't considered by Toriyama to be an actual full out transformation just yet. Not until Goku goes SSJ3 do we actually see SSJ2 quantified as such.

I think I remember Bulma, around the beginning of the Buu saga, wondering if Goku can turn SSj 2.

[Son_Gohan]

That's because he could, unless you missed the whole deal with him confidently and effortlessly transforming to SSj 2 without a catalyst. He didn't have that much of a reason to before(he was only equal to Dabura, it's not like he was weaker), and couldn't after because he used up a lot of stamina and ki.

I'm not disputing that, I see him as a SSJ2 in every appearance after his training with Goten leading up to the tournament.

It's just that many people are saying he was a SSJ1 in his fight with Dabura and onwards, which doesn't make much sense if they believe he could've transformed at will.

[Dayspring]

What I meant by my earlier post is that Gohan can tap into the energy put out by his anger, but it takes a great deal of concentration and effort to do so at will. So much so, that it takes him forever to tap into it while at base form doing nothing but concentrating. So that 'half-SSJ' may actually be Gohan at full rage. Shitload of Power + SSJ = SSJ2, where for Gohan, Full Rage = Shitload of Power. So while the others can go SSJ2 at will because of how strong they've become, Gohan's lack of training means his ONLY option is to tap into his rage, something he hasn't completely mastered yet (or at least, not as easily as regular ki manipulation).

Think of it as Ki = Physical Energy + Spiritual Energy + Mental Energy + Emotional Energy. For the most part, Emotional Energy just goes unused, while for Gohan, it's his greatest source of power if he were to use it. However, it's by far the hardest to tap into (at least for Gohan). IE: How can one calmly use frustration?

So when Gohan fights against Dabura and Boo, he is using his max strength without going SSJ2, because he's refering to the max that he can control in battle.

As for Kaioshin's comment about the Saiyans being stronger than Kibito's seen, keep in mind Kibito never saw anybody fight. SSJ2 at rest would give off an impressive amount of ki, but how useful is that ki in battle? Kibito would have no clue, whereas Kaioshin saw how impressive regular SSJ Gohan was, so he knows if Gohan could tap into SSJ2 power, he'd be a force to recon with.

[Savage68]

As for Kaioshin's comment about the Saiyans being stronger than Kibito's seen, keep in mind Kibito never saw anybody fight. SSJ2 at rest would give off an impressive amount of ki, but how useful is that ki in battle? Kibito would have no clue, whereas Kaioshin saw how impressive regular SSJ Gohan was, so he knows if Gohan could tap into SSJ2 power, he'd be a force to recon with.

SSj 2 Gohan was about to have a full-on fight with Kibito, ridiculous as it may seem. He even gets into a fighting stance, so we can safely assume that he was not suppressing himself. No amount of SSj 1 power(even with a Kamehameha) can compare to SSj 2 power.

[Rocketman]

Uh...what? Just because he's not the best at gauging ki doesn't mean he's completely off about something that was obviously the strongest point Gohan was at so far.

He sensed SS2 Gohan at the Tournament, but was still scared of Puipui. He is completely wrong about everything.

[Savage68]

He was scared of Pui-Pui?

No. He didn't even know who the hell Pui-Pui even was. The only reason he was hesitant is because he didn't didn't want anyone to give Buu energy, or to accidentally awake Buu.

[Dayspring]

As for Kaioshin's comment about the Saiyans being stronger than Kibito's seen, keep in mind Kibito never saw anybody fight. SSJ2 at rest would give off an impressive amount of ki, but how useful is that ki in battle? Kibito would have no clue, whereas Kaioshin saw how impressive regular SSJ Gohan was, so he knows if Gohan could tap into SSJ2 power, he'd be a force to recon with.

SSj 2 Gohan was about to have a full-on fight with Kibito, ridiculous as it may seem. He even gets into a fighting stance, so we can safely assume that he was not suppressing himself. No amount of SSj 1 power(even with a Kamehameha) can compare to SSj 2 power.

That... doesn't exactly add to or disprove anything I said.

[Savage68]

It does.

You said something about Kibito never seeing SSj 2 Gohan fight, and that Kaioshin saw how impressive SSj Gohan was, which is why he later exclaimed to Kibito that he hadn't seen how Gohan really is.

And I said that no SSj 1 power would be impressive in the face of SSj 2 power, which adds to the notion of Gohan being SSj 2 only when he used the Kamehameha against Buu's shell.

[Xyex]

It does.

You said something about Kibito never seeing SSj 2 Gohan fight, and that Kaioshin saw how impressive SSj Gohan was, which is why he later exclaimed to Kibito that he hadn't seen how Gohan really is.

And I said that no SSj 1 power would be impressive in the face of SSj 2 power, which adds to the notion of Gohan being SSj 2 only when he used the Kamehameha against Buu's shell.

Except that Kaioshin doesn't have to be talking about power. He could be referring to skill and ability. Besides that, an SSJ2 at rest is not the same as an SSJ1 fighting at full power. Gohan may have been about ready to fight but there's a pretty large difference between 'about ready' and 'going all out' even when the latter is a level lower.

[Savage68]

Kaioshin doesn't have to be talking about power. He could be referring to skill and ability.

Except this sounds stupid. What skill and ability did Gohan show, then? Because last I checked, he did nothing impressive in-between Kibito's death and revival.

an SSJ2 at rest

What? He wasn't-

Gohan may have been about ready to fight

Oh, never mind. You corrected yourself.

SSj 2 Gohan wasn't "at rest", in the slightest. He was about to fight, and no SSj 1 power of his could match or surpass that strength. I mean, unless you think that Gohan's SSj 1 power could've dealt the same amount of damage to Cell as his SSj 2(since it was at rest and all) did.

[Senzu_Bean]

No amount of SSj 1 power(even with a Kamehameha) can compare to SSj 2 power.

Actually... Goku rose his battle power from 400's into 900's with a Kamehameha. That is over a twice increase! Supposing the same happens when someone is at Super Saiyan then a fully charged Kamehameha gives over 2x increase while going beyond Super Saiyan only gives a 2x increase.

[hleV]

No amount of SSj 1 power(even with a Kamehameha) can compare to SSj 2 power.

Actually... Goku rose his battle power from 400's into 900's with a Kamehameha. That is over a twice increase! Supposing the same happens when someone is at Super Saiyan then a fully charged Kamehameha gives over 2x increase while going beyond Super Saiyan only gives a 2x increase.

That only applies if SSJ2 is really a 2x SSJ multiplier. I don't really mind it being 2x, but we can't be sure.

[Savage68]

It also applies only if you think the multipliers given in the SEG even matter, or are universally applicable in the series.