"FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid" - Wait, what?

[jjgp1112]

Desirecampell, what are you talking about? Almost all mentions of "the next dimension" were taken out in the redubs of Seasons 1 & 2.

"Maybe you won't be such a disappointment - IN THE NEXT DIMENSION!" --> "Maybe you won't be such a disappointment - WHEN YOU'RE DEAD!" For one thing, among loads of other revisions.

[Super Sonic]

Spider-Man (1994-1998) had largely the same restrictions. Can't say "death/die/kill" (though they did a few rare times), can't punch people, can't use realistic guns, can't harm pigeons when he jumps on rooftops.... Wiki says it was because some violent cartoons were getting banned at the time.

And yet on the same token, Batman: TAS circa 1992 pushed the envelopes with violence, guns, Batman threatening criminals, death, etc. and not only sold toys, but won Emmy's for it's dark and gritty portrayal of the character. All the while staying loyal to it's source material.

Remember also that Batman premiered before Power Rangers while Spider-Man premiered after it, thus it got away with things since it was before Fox Kids censors got anal. X-Men did too. Heck, they had a character on it made soley to die (though fan letters influenced it becoming a comic book "death").

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Saying they were "watering down" the show so children wouldn't get scared is bullshit, and you know it's bullshit. Sure, maybe kids would be scared of mass murder (like the saiyans arrival) but they're not scared of death being called 'death', they're not scared of dramatic silences, they're not scared of Goku being not-Superman. The only things these changes "watered down" was the intelligence and subtlety of the show. And that's treating the audience like idiots.

They were "watering down" the death and mass murder aspects in the original dub of Seasons 1 and 2. This changed with Season 3.

[linkdude20002001]

Okay. So what about FUNi's changes for season three? They made Gokuh a goody-goody, and Vegeta into a someone who'd cry about committing mass genocide for a job.

[Piccolo Daimaoh]

Okay. So what about FUNi's changes for season three? They made Gokuh a goody-goody, and Vegeta into a someone who'd cry about committing mass genocide for a job.

Yes, they changed certain aspects. Does that mean that FUNi thinks it audience is stupid?

[linkdude20002001]

Well it seems to me like they thought children couldn't handle a main character that was selfish or a semi-good guy that was once a genocidal maniac. Why is that even a problem? Children aren't going to be scared of that unless maybe they saw Vegeta ripping the guts out of someone. If anything, it just makes Vegeta all the more badass. I've got a friend who was six when season three first aired, and Vegeta was his favorite character 'cause of how badass he seemed. I was nine and I also wouldn't had a problem with it and neither would anyone else I knew back then. It's insulting that FUNi thought that is was even necessary to make such drastic changes to the characters' personalities. I'm pretty sure their target audience could've handled it just fine.

[Godo]

Funimation doesn't think that it's audience is stupid. They think that they are mindless

Oh, okay.

Wait...

There is a difference between those two words, and I have put in bold what definitions I meant:

mind·less   [mahynd-lis]
–adjective
1.
without intelligence; senseless: a mindless creature.
2.
unmindful or heedless: mindless of all dangers.

stu·pid   [stoo-pid, styoo‐] adjective,-er, -est, noun
–adjective
1.
lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2.
characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.

So, I hope that you understand that I didn't mean those two words as synonyms, but that I actually know differences between words, although English is not my main language, and that I hope that is won't stand in the way of us having a normal conversation or debate.
As sure as those two words are used interchangeably, it was (obviously) not my point.

[caejones]

Spider-Man (1994-1998) had largely the same restrictions. Can't say "death/die/kill" (though they did a few rare times), can't punch people, can't use realistic guns, can't harm pigeons when he jumps on rooftops.... Wiki says it was because some violent cartoons were getting banned at the time.

Yeah, as much as I still love the show for the major nostalgia factor, it's clear when you look back on it now just how restricted it was.

And yet, death and killing and murderous intent got attention from time to time (like when Spidey had the Venom-suit).
There was the time when MaryJane got sent to another dimention (XD), but Spider-man's response got pretty dark in the next minute or so.


Re: Character changes -
- I am annoyed that the characterization was so messed up in the dub, and while I'd cast that negatively, I wouldn't put it under the umbrella of insulting the intelligence of the audience.
Of course, "relating to the audience" is something I've never understood, so nya.

[Bussani]

There is a difference between those two words, and I have put in bold what definitions I meant:

mind·less   [mahynd-lis]
–adjective
1.
without intelligence; senseless: a mindless creature.
2.
unmindful or heedless: mindless of all dangers.

stu·pid   [stoo-pid, styoo‐] adjective,-er, -est, noun
–adjective
1.
lacking ordinary quickness and keenness of mind; dull.
2.
characterized by or proceeding from mental dullness; foolish; senseless: a stupid question.

So, I hope that you understand that I didn't mean those two words as synonyms, but that I actually know differences between words, although English is not my main language, and that I hope that is won't stand in the way of us having a normal conversation or debate.
As sure as those two words are used interchangeably, it was (obviously) not my point.

That's a lot of words for what was mostly a joke on my part. But to get serious, my point wasn't that the two words can be used interchangeably: my point was that I don't see "They think that they are mindless bags o' money that are easy to please" as being much better, personally.

[Godo]

my point was that I don't see "They think that they are mindless bags o' money that are easy to please" as being much better, personally.

Wouldn't that have been much, much better to write out to begin with than: "...wait."? Wouldn't that have saved both of us less trouble and time, trying to explain ourselves?
When we only communicate with words here, shouldn't we try to make ourselves clear (especially since some non-Americans don't understand American Internet humor fully, including myself).
Just sayin'.

What I meant was actually that what Funimation thought of their fans, was even worse than "stupid", so you got it right.

[Rocketman]

Children aren't going to be scared of that unless maybe they saw Vegeta ripping the guts out of someone.

:I

[Godo]

Children aren't going to be scared of that unless maybe they saw Vegeta ripping the guts out of someone.

:I

Well, to be technical, he punched a hole in his stomach. No ripping there.
I also wonder how Funimation could air Vegeta being beaten to the brink of death by Freeza, while he was screaming because of the pain, but still censor that particular scene.

[Gaffer Tape]

Well, because the above shot was from season 2, when they were still controlled by Saban, while Freeza beating up Vegeta was from the more lax Cartoon Network-based standards of season 3. That said, though, Freeza just punching Vegeta in the back is quite a bit less violent than Vegeta punching a hole INTO Zarbon. =P

[Anonymous Friend]

I have a question about the "lies". Can someone list the marketing lines and how they were lies. And I mean actually lies, not "This is the greatest product of ever and nothing else has ever or will ever be better then this in all of the multiverse" type of lies.

We broke down and covered quite a few in our recent feature prior to the Dragon Box releases.

I just got done reading parts of the article there. Mainly about the "lies" being brought up in this topic. I'll concede that there was a lot of untrue statements made. I wouldn't count the first lie listed (about dual language tracks in releases) seemed more like it was something they wanted to do but for what ever reason they never got around to it.

The remastering though, maybe it's my own apathy towrds the situation. Maybe it's that once I heard "thirty episodes for thirty dollars" I stopped listening, ran outside and bought it. I put the discs in and watched. The show looked great to me. Although the only comparisons I had were to whatever had aired on TV. The first thing I had noticed was the absense of grain. And It wasn't until the second or third to last episode in season one that I noticed the disappearing lines.

I still can't be bothered to care much that they "lied" about the remastering. Mostly because all I don't really buy into the whole remastering for HD hype. Especially of things made decades before HD anything. I'm not saying that there are no improvements, but it's not the same as something specifically for the hardware. Plus, you always have one group that says the older one is better and another that says that the newer version is better.

Maybe the intent was for the re-mastering to be super awesome as well as the widescreen. But when all was said and done it didn't go so well. I don't know at what point the realized that the process was getting bad results. It was either scrap the project that they had canceled a previous release for and the money loss or push forward. They decided to continue with the plan and sell this product. They embellished ... they hyperbolized ... they used every marketing trick ever devised and they sold their product. To me, I really can't see a company lying. PR and Marketing wouldn't be doing their jobs if they didn't try to spin things in the best possible light for their clients. And unless it's something that could cause them to be taken to court, it's dismissable.

As for the script, again I have to say that certain decisions were made by those in charge because they wanted to make sure the show stayed on the air. Other decisions were made to make the show seem like other popular shows on the air. The rest probably had alchohol involved or drugs or something and at the time they thought these additions were super awesome (this, of course is left to the taste and opinion of individual veiwers). You may call BS, but (1) Toei saw fit to make similar edits and alterations when creating Kai as FUNi and Saban made as far as the images. Although, it may not be for the same exact reasoning. And (2) when people here saw these changes, specifically the ones that toned down violent images and little kid nudity, people went crazy. If you'd react that way about little boy penis, I'm not taking your comments seriously about light edits.

People have been listing the Batman, Spider-man, X-men, and Gargoyles, as well as the very few others that complete this handful, of early nineties animated series that were able to be what Dragonball Z was, the violence, death and mature themes, without problem. But do you know how hard it was to get these sort of programs to the air. There's no guarentee that unaltered Dragonball Z would have made it big back then. Heck, I doubt that I would work now. So many greats shows today get canceled. After all is said and done, all companies would rather be Revenge of the Fallen than The Hurt Locker, and they wish to the eternal dragon that they could be both. But in the meantime, they will do what they can to make money. Sometimes things that rub people the wrong way.

"(Does) FUNimation thinks its audience is stupid(?)"

I think that they hope that we're gullible and will buy their shoddy products. I think that they tried a bit too hard (with good reason). I think that they truly beleive that their reversioning is really good the way it is, but at the same time they recognized that there are some who would want a direct english version of the series which led to the english Dragon Box release. Z Kai gives them the oppurtunty to give us this direct english version.

Finally, I think that there are still a lot of people who are stuck on their animosity towards the FUNi dub. Let it go. Would you even bother watching a new english dub at this point and time? If it did happen, wouldn't most of your complaints then consist of character voices? Something that I personally don't comment on anywhere unless the person just have an annoying voice.

[Velasa]

Well, to be technical, he punched a hole in his stomach. No ripping there.
I also wonder how Funimation could air Vegeta being beaten to the brink of death by Freeza, while he was screaming because of the pain, but still censor that particular scene.

Speaking of this whole era, there's something strange that always stood out to me...

On the original TV broadcast at the point where Vegeta rather unwisely tries to take on Freezer himself, I remember seeing footage in a preview where Freezer was standing on a dry lakebed surrounded by water, and was somehow holding Vegeta by his hair. But when the next episode came I don't believe this was ever shown. Am I remembering this wrong or was it ok to punch the shit out of Veg, but not to pull his hair?

[TheMajinRedComet]

Most of the edits in that fight had to do with the large amounts of blood Vegeta was coughing up.