Vegeta learned to hide his true strength while on Earth??

[Senzu_Bean]

I'm already out of the debate just wanted to point out Freeza can manipulate his battle power. He and Ginyu are the only one inside of "Freeza empire" capable of such thing.

I agree, but I think that in his first form he is always in the hundreds thousands. I do not believe that he can lower his power as much as Goku, for example, can, hence why he needed different transformations. But thats another debate. What I wanted to point out is that Krillin couldn`t even tell that there were more people there much stronger than Vegeta was on earth.

I agree too. The truth is I always thought this subject of battle power manipulation to be poorly explained on the story. No surprise there are so many views about it.

[rereboy]

I guess we'll also have to agree to disagree then, since after all you're saying post-kaio training Son Goku also is worse than a scouter at sensing ki? Yep, I'll never agree with that, so we might as well end it here.

Actually, I don`t know about that. I don`t remember Goku actually ever doubting that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa so he could be close to a scouter`s accuracy by that point. The ability to sense Ki was also that evolved in the story.

[FindKenshi]

I guess we'll also have to agree to disagree then, since after all you're saying post-kaio training Son Goku also is worse than a scouter at sensing ki? Yep, I'll never agree with that, so we might as well end it here.

Actually, I don`t know about that. I don`t remember Goku actually ever doubting that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa so he could be close to a scouter`s accuracy by that point. The ability to sense Ki was also that evolved in the story.

Goku *tosses Nappa down infront of Vegeta*
Goku: "Go home!"
Vegeta *blows Nappa up*
Goku: "His power is a lot higher than I thought... you guys better get out of here!"

[dbgtFO]

You explain everything? In what way do you explain Piccolo and Goku not being able to sense Nappa's and Vegeta's true powers on Earth then? I'm curious to hear this explanation >_>

Their ki sensing wasn't as good as later on, Goku couldn't even feel which one died, when Piccolo died, Piccolo only assumed Goku was the one approaching with a huge energy, because he was the one they waited for, Goku when approaching on Kintoun remarked that he could feel 2 big energies, 2 smaller and one tiny(Kuririn xD), Kuririn said that Goku wouldn't stand a chance against the two saiyans, even though Goku's PL was all ready at 5000 enough to put up a good fight against Nappa, and it is only AFTER Goku has punched Nappa around, that Kuririn says: "He is gotten a lot better! He can take them!" Implying that even though Goku's PL was most certainly higher than Nappa's Kuririn never thought until it was shown, that Goku stood a chance.

Goku in the Freeza saga was shown to be able to pinpoint exactly who was getting stronger or weaker during the fight with Freeza showing that he got better at proper ki sensing implying that he probably wasn't able to know how much power Vegeta and Nappa actually had when they weren't doing anything even though they weren't suppressed!!

[FindKenshi]

You explain everything? In what way do you explain Piccolo and Goku not being able to sense Nappa's and Vegeta's true powers on Earth then? I'm curious to hear this explanation >_>

Their ki sensing wasn't as good as later on, Goku couldn't even feel which one died, when Piccolo died, Piccolo only assumed Goku was the one approaching with a huge energy, because he was the one they waited for, Goku when approaching on Kintoun remarked that he could feel 2 big energies, 2 smaller and one tiny(Kuririn xD), Kuririn said that Goku wouldn't stand a chance against the two saiyans, even though Goku's PL was all ready at 5000 enough to put up a good fight against Nappa, and it is only AFTER Goku has punched Nappa around, that Kuririn says: "He is gotten a lot better! He can take them!" Implying that even though Goku's PL was most certainly higher than Nappa's Kuririn never thought until it was shown, that Goku stood a chance.

Goku in the Freeza saga was shown to be able to pinpoint exactly who was getting stronger or weaker during the fight with Freeza showing that he got better at proper ki sensing implying that he probably wasn't able to know how much power Vegeta and Nappa actually had when they weren't doing anything even though they weren't suppressed!!

Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Care to explain what Nappa and Vegeta were doing when they "powered up" then? Just putting on a fireworks display??

[dbgtFO]

@FindKenshi They were not powering up in the same sense as Goku did going from 5000 to over 8000, instead they were just entering battle mode, and showcasing what their power could do when fully concentrating eg. Nappa shaking the ground, Vegeta making a hurricane creating lightning and what not. If a scouter was measuring this there would be no difference between before and after. Vegeta said he learned to suppress his PL on earth, so I always say that if his full power was 18000, he would take note of the Z fighters suppressing their PL's and try it for himself, possibly going as low as 16500 before fighting Goku with full power. Nappa on the other hand just had to focus properly to draw out his power(NOT increasing PL) and since the Z fighters weren't as good as sensing ki as later on they thought he got stronger, you could say it was like they knew he was strong beforehand, but it isn't until it is thrown in their face, that they see how strong he actually is, hence the example with Kuririn thinking Goku doesn't stand a chance until he sees Goku beat up Nappa.

Besides, when Nappa "powers up" to be on par with over 8000 Goku, Goku doesn't state that Nappa got stronger all he says after they've fought evenly for a while is : "Hah, that was a lot better!" not once implying/ saying that Nappa didn't have the same strength as before, he was just focusing better and therefore was able to fight better than before.

[rereboy]

I guess we'll also have to agree to disagree then, since after all you're saying post-kaio training Son Goku also is worse than a scouter at sensing ki? Yep, I'll never agree with that, so we might as well end it here.

Actually, I don`t know about that. I don`t remember Goku actually ever doubting that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa so he could be close to a scouter`s accuracy by that point. The ability to sense Ki was also that evolved in the story.

Goku *tosses Nappa down infront of Vegeta*
Goku: "Go home!"
Vegeta *blows Nappa up*
Goku: "His power is a lot higher than I thought... you guys better get out of here!"

But that is exactly why I say that, early in the story, the scouters, when they don`t explode or when a fighter isn`t suppressing their power, are more accurate than Ki sensing.

Just follow my reasoning, please...:

Raditz, Vegeta, Kiwi, Dodoria, etc, all of these state that its highly unusual for a fighter to just increase or decrease his/her scouter reading, even if they are doing nothing, and most of them are shocked when a fighter does this.
What does this mean?
Well, the only logical answer is that scouters are so accurate that their users trust their readings almost blindly, and this includes readings of people just standing around. If the readings changed (significantly) the moment a fighter stopped doing nothing and attacked, then the scouters could never be trusted, and everybody would be a fool for being surprised that the reading changed.
The only times, in fact, that the scouters are shown in the manga to be inaccurate is when a fighter is controlling and suppressing his/her power.

Also, we know for a fact that Radditz, Nappa and Vegeta couldn`t control their power level while on Earth.
If they couldn`t control it, than the scouter readings of them would be accurate, even if their were doing nothing, as my last paragraph established.

And, we also know for a fact, that the Earthlings had a much better sense of their enemies` power when they actively used their power. That`s why after some attacks the earthlings were surprised at the enemies power.

Therefore, I think its safe to establish that the earthlings, especially early in the story, feel the power levels/ki of their enemies much more accurately and powerfully when they start to actively use their power. They can usually tell if someone is stronger than someone else or if he/she is a lot stronger, but they have difficulty pinpointing the exact strength (especially early in the story). Also, because their ki sensing depends highly on their senses (it could be called their 6th sense), it makes sense that they are able to feel their opponents power much better when they are ready to attack. Scouters just work differently.

As they evolve, their ki sensing abilities become much more accurate and exact.

As for Goku in the sayan saga, that was one of those moments where the fact that Vegeta used his power, allowed Goku to sense much better exactly how strong Vegeta really were, even though I doubt he ever doubted that Vegeta was stronger than Nappa.

Sorry, but I just don't buy that. Care to explain what Nappa and Vegeta were doing when they "powered up" then? Just putting on a fireworks display??

Thats just them focusing. It allows them to attack more effectively. Like focusing your ki in your hands to fire a ki blast. It doesn`t mean that the power of someone who does that changed during the second it took to summon their ki blast.

What dbgtFO said about Nappa fighting better after focusing properly is a very good example.

[FindKenshi]

@FindKenshi They were not powering up in the same sense as Goku did going from 5000 to over 8000, instead they were just entering battle mode

It is so the same thing.. especailly if you think "entering battle mode" (silly fan term that has no backing in the manga nor daizenshuu..) makes their ki feel bigger to those who can sesne ki.. Nappa most certainly was powering up in that sequence.. Piccolo stated as such, when he noted Nappa's power increasing during the scene.. how can you deny this? That's called grasping for straws >_>

early in the story, the scouters, when they don`t explode or when a fighter isn`t suppressing their power, are more accurate than Ki sensing.

However, Nappa and Vegeta were supressing their power. Or else Piccolo and Goku would have known their true strength immediatly. I don't know why I keep having to repeat this, you can't go around this fact. Them being "bad" at sensing ki does not account for post-kaio Goku thinking Vegeta would be easy until he saw Vegeta power up to blow Nappa away....

Just follow my reasoning, please...:

Yes, I KNOW those chacters say that about scouter readings.. that's what I'm telling you is the plothole.

I ask you the same question I asked the other guy then, if you think their power is static.. what the heck were they doing when they powered up on Earth? Just shaking the ground and putting on a fireworks display? That is absolute nonsense, since during the event Piccolo commented on Nappa's increasing battle power.

Goku has been able to sense ki very good after he came back from Kaio's but he was still caught off guard by Vegeta's true strength? What way to explain this other than Vegeta was supressed? There's none that makes any kind of sense.

You guys are bending facts too much, when you say "They weren't powering up during their powerup scenes, because he stated later on Namek that battle powers don't just change." Uh.. they certainly were powering up, I'm nearing the point where I dont' feel like arguing anymore.


...

What dbgtFO said about Nappa fighting better after focusing properly is a very good example.

Nappa powered up with aura and floating rocks and everything after Vegeta told him to calm down. Afterwards, he did better against Goku, thus he rasied his battle power.

[Senzu_Bean]

There are these instances too: http://daizex.fanboyreview.net/viewtopi ... =8&t=14317

[rereboy]

You think that way because you assume that Ki sensing must work the same way and be always as accurate as the scouters.

Nothing in the story implies this. In fact, it implies that they are very different. They do not work the same way. At all.

[FindKenshi]

You think that way because you assume that Ki sensing must work the same way and be always as accurate as the scouters.

Nothing in the story implies this. In fact, it implies that they are very different. They do not work the same way. At all.

Ok, at least now we're getting somewhere, with something new.
So what do you think the differences are then? Is Battle Power not a measure of ki energy in one's body?

[rereboy]

You think that way because you assume that Ki sensing must work the same way and be always as accurate as the scouters.

Nothing in the story implies this. In fact, it implies that they are very different. They do not work the same way. At all.

Ok, at least now we're getting somewhere, with something new.
So what do you think the differences are then? Is Battle Power not a measure of ki energy in one's body?

We do not know how exactly a scouter reads someone` power. Maybe some kind of natural radiation? Can it just pick up energy signals? Who knows. The point is that they are implied in the story to be accurate, except when someone is hiding/controlling/suppressing his/her power. But why? Maybe when someone suppresses his or her ki the radiation that the scouter picks up diminishes? And when it picks up a high amount of concentrated radiation the device gives in and explodes? It has to be some kind of scientific explanation like that because thats what it is. A scientific device to read power.

However, ki sensing is not scientific at all. It is based on and improved on someone`s senses, namely their 6th sense.
Since it doesn`t use numbers to quantify the power it will be automatically less exact than a scouter reading (for example, you wouldn`t have any trouble seeing in a scouter that someone with a power of 2222 is weaker than one with a power of 2223. But would someone with ki sensing be able to tell that difference? It would be very difficult to be that exact. But it wouldn`t be difficult for the scouter).
Also, since it depends on the senses (6th sense), its only natural for them to pick up much more effectively the power of an opponent if they are ready to strike at you. The feeling of danger that the opponent causes on them before him or her attacks and their instinct helps them read him or her much better.
But, since it is a learned ability, a fighter can improve it constantly.

So, basically this in my opinion in their differences. You might not agree with all, but hopefully you will realize that they are very different from each other.

[Rocketman]

Ok, at least now we're getting somewhere, with something new.
So what do you think the differences are then? Is Battle Power not a measure of ki energy in one's body?

You can sense that today is hotter than yesterday. A thermometer tells you that today is eleven degrees Fahrenheit hotter.

[rereboy]

Ok, at least now we're getting somewhere, with something new.
So what do you think the differences are then? Is Battle Power not a measure of ki energy in one's body?

You can sense that today is hotter than yesterday. A thermometer tells you that today is eleven degrees Fahrenheit hotter.

Exactly. That is a perfect example.

[lash]

Personally I always thought there was a difference between altering/changing your battle power and suppressing your Ki.
According to the Rachel's translation of Daizenshuu 7's World view, the scouter picks up Ki hidden within the body. So whether Vegeta is sleeping, relaxed, or fighting, his battle power is going to always be 18,000...this is until he learns to alter it like the earthlings. Ki sensing is different, it doesn't pick up hidden/idle Ki. Which is why Vegeta and Nappa have the ability to powerup and make themselves appear stronger to Ki sensing users, while without actually changing their own scouter readings. Ki sensing can be deceived his way, while scouter reading will not.

Changing your battle power is what Goku and the earthlings were able to do. Like Goku's fighting power being at 5,000 when he's really actually 8,000+ or 90,000. They aren't suppressing it, they are literally changing the Ki their body emits whether idle, hidden, or fully shown to a level they want. With this, Ki sensing can be deceived, AND scouter reading can also be deceived.

That's kind of how I understood the whole thing.

[dbgtFO]

@ FindKenshi
I will try to explain it in an analogy here. First the ones who can't hide their PLs.
Nappa and Vegeta have a set number of apples attached to their stomach, Nappa has 7( I believe his PL is this*1000) and Vegeta has 18.

The apples are placed very close together, so it is hard to pinpoint just how many there are(Saiyan saga ki sensing ability), but fortunately Freeza technology has made a device that gives the EXACT number of how many apples there are, which the saiyan saga Z fighters couldn't do!!.

When they "power up" the apples start levitating in the air and go out to each part of the body( in Nappa's case he would have 1 by his head, 1 by each of his feet and so on), making it much EASIER to see just how many apples he has(Piccolo in the japanese version says: "I didn't think it would be this much"), the aforementioned revolutionizing piece of technology, however detects, that there hasn't been made any difference at ALL to the amount of apples and therefore informs that it's the same as before!

The above example is from a guy who doesn't know how to suppress their ki, but still "powers up" before entering battle as all the ki in the body is assigned different parts of the body, thereby making it more fit for combat, and that is what I meant with "entering battle mode."

Now a guy who is able to suppress one's ki:
Goku also has a set number of apples attached to his stomach, in this case 5, the scouter is able to detect this, however what the scouter doesn't detect is the fact, that Goku is hiding some of his apples in his clothes(masking his ki), Goku has actually hidden 3 apples somewhere in his clothes which the scouter is unable to register as it is out of its viewing range, when Goku then powers up, as with Nappa and Vegeta the apples start to levitate and assign themselves to somewhere on the body, the apples hidden underneath his clothes flies out and are now fully visible, by the scouter, which immeadiately detects it and thereby gives the user the REAL number.!!

I hope this analogy explains it to you, if it doesn't, then I don't know what will....

[Xyex]

I don't get why anyone thinks ki sensing would ever be as exact as a scouter. Ki sensing = eyes. Scouter = hightech device. You go outside, look up in the sky, and see a very big object over head. You go "Wow, that's huge!" Meanwhile the person beside you uses their hightech device to look up at the object and the go "Holy shit, that's five miles across!" You train for a while to be able to tell sizes of things better and look up at another object in the sky and go "Wow, that's got to be about ten miles across!" Meanwhile, the guy with his hightech device looks up and goes "Damn, that's twelve miles and eight hundred feet across!"

See the difference?

The "powering-up" that Nappa and Vegeta did on Earth didn't raise their scouter reading any. Both would have read the same before as they did after because they weren't powering-up but drawing-out. They were bringing more/all of their ki out to the surface in order to toss it around and use. Early on ki sensing only picks up 'surface' ki while Scouters can read surface and 'reserve' ki. Since Nappa and Vegeta had most of their ki in reserve, and not on the surface, they couldn't pick up exactly how much power was there.

[Dayspring]

I don't get why anyone thinks ki sensing would ever be as exact as a scouter. Ki sensing = eyes. Scouter = hightech device. You go outside, look up in the sky, and see a very big object over head. You go "Wow, that's huge!" Meanwhile the person beside you uses their hightech device to look up at the object and the go "Holy shit, that's five miles across!" You train for a while to be able to tell sizes of things better and look up at another object in the sky and go "Wow, that's got to be about ten miles across!" Meanwhile, the guy with his hightech device looks up and goes "Damn, that's twelve miles and eight hundred feet across!"

See the difference?

The "powering-up" that Nappa and Vegeta did on Earth didn't raise their scouter reading any. Both would have read the same before as they did after because they weren't powering-up but drawing-out. They were bringing more/all of their ki out to the surface in order to toss it around and use. Early on ki sensing only picks up 'surface' ki while Scouters can read surface and 'reserve' ki. Since Nappa and Vegeta had most of their ki in reserve, and not on the surface, they couldn't pick up exactly how much power was there.

In that case, what's the difference between "powering up" and "drawing out?" Both caused the ki to seem larger, both got picked up by scouters.

[Kaboom]

Obviously the story drills into us that there are other big advantages of Ki-sensing over using a Scouter to measure. Despite being more precise, Scouters can't account for power that's hidden or being purposely held-back, something which a skilled natural ki-senser might be able to pick up on by "feel." Like they say in Star Trek, "when logic fails, trust your gut."

[Adamant]

As we see with Vegeta on Nameck, however, using a scouter can make it easier to "scan" an area for life, since it'll pick up ki sources that are being suppressed to such a great amount you wouldn't notice them by just your senses.