Goku became completely useless after beating Freeza

[Cacarot]

Goku was a terrible father and husband. He is perhaps the most selfish person ever because all he cared about was fighting strong opponents doing whatever it took to do so. He wasn't pissed at all with Vegeta for letting cell become perfect but was excited instead. He is honestly insane. He is useless because he relied on the dragonballs to fix the damage caused by his desire to fight strong people.

[Gaffer Tape]

Aside from Vegeta killing Nappa, Zarbon, Dodoria, Burta, Jeice, Guldo, and Recoome, thus protecting(inadvertantely) Gohan, Krillin and Bulma, Healing Goku and buying him time to recuperate by fighting Freeza, he was indeed pretty useless. However he did at least defeat more people in DBZ than Goku did.

Um, wasn't this thread about post-Freeza arc Goku? So why are you comparing him to pre-Freeza arc Vegeta?

(Besides, as for Nappa, it was really Goku that defeated him. And the Ginyu. Vegeta just finished them off when they were completely helpless. Anyone could have done that. If I come along and kick George Foreman in the shins right after he's had the crap beaten out of him for 15 rounds, do I really deserve credit for beating him?)

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

However he did at least defeat more people in DBZ than Goku did.

Yet that still didn't make him more usefull in the long run. I really can't see how anbody could claim that Goku became useless after the Freeza Saga. Not to mention that in the original time line, it was him that defeated both Freeza and Cold.
He was the one to defeat majin Buu in the end. That he had a lot of help doing it, doesn't mean a thing. He had help defeating Freeza too. He was still the one to defeat him. The one who had the power and the technique. So how is he useless?

He did defeat Buu, but only after he pussy-footed around and let everyone get killed, not to mention lead to earth, and countless other planets/lives beyong obliterated. Also, the only reason he was the one to defeat Buu, albeit only by the power of the dragonballs, was because he ended up being too arrogant to let Gohan (or Gotenks) come and easily mop the floor with kid buu(thus also putting Vegeta and the world of the Kais at risk)

Ignoring that Vegeta was in charge of the wishing, while I never saw the episode where Goku assess Kid Buu's power in Japanese, aren't we talking at least a two fold power boost from Super to Kid/Chibi? At that point I would have questioned if Gotenk and Gohan were still relevant, and if so, still strong enough to land an ending blow. Nor do we know how Super Sayain 3 Goku would have fared against Super Buu, given that Fat Buu was powerless. I believe there's a consensus that Super Sayain 3 Gotenks is a good deal stronger than Goku, which I have always found hard to believe given that all the power-up multipliers are working on two powers vastly smaller than Goku combined. (Forgot how fun the occasional power level discussions can get!)

As everyone else getting killed, yeah, I compared it to the Cell saga because of the endless stream of failed power-ups for a reason. It was week-by-week writing then, and it sure as hell was now. Only this time everyone gets killed.

Goku was a terrible father and husband. He is perhaps the most selfish person ever because all he cared about was fighting strong opponents doing whatever it took to do so. He wasn't pissed at all with Vegeta for letting cell become perfect but was excited instead. He is honestly insane. He is useless because he relied on the dragonballs to fix the damage caused by his desire to fight strong people.

All facts which lead to this conversation in the first place.

[mystic trunks]

I think it is common knowledge that ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Goku. Goku stated that he and vegeta(together) couldn't even beat super buu in his first form.

[Kid Buu]

(Besides, as for Nappa, it was really Goku that defeated him. And the Ginyu. Vegeta just finished them off when they were completely helpless. Anyone could have done that. If I come along and kick George Foreman in the shins right after he's had the crap beaten out of him for 15 rounds, do I really deserve credit for beating him?)

I agree that Goku deserves the credit for beating Nappa, but I would say Captain Ginyu was beaten by a joint effort of Goku & Vegeta.

[Gaffer Tape]

True. I wasn't really thinking about Ginyu himself. I was thinking about the others, although you could really say that it was the combined efforts of Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, and Gohan who defeated Ginyu.

[Kid Buu]

True. I wasn't really thinking about Ginyu himself. I was thinking about the others, although you could really say that it was the combined efforts of Goku, Vegeta, Kuririn, and Gohan who defeated Ginyu.

Ah, okay. I guess even if count the whole team, Vegeta did at least stop Jeice.

Goku also stopped Mecha Freeza and King Cold in the original timeline if that counts.

[Gaffer Tape]

Haha, fine! Vegeta did take care of Jheese (and Gurdo) all by himself, and I was very specifically referring to only Butta and Reacoom. But as I've said, this was during the Freeza arc where he was still not completely insane.

[Kid Buu]

Haha, fine! Vegeta did take care of Jheese (and Gurdo) all by himself, and I was very specifically referring to only Butta and Reacoom. But as I've said, this was during the Freeza arc where he was still not completely insane.

Haha sorry.

Hmm...if Goku didn't return to earth for one day how would the Buu Saga turn out? Would Buu even be resurrected since Vegeta wouldn't turn Majin?

[Michsi]

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He did defeat Buu, but only after he pussy-footed around and let evreyone get killed, not to mention lead to earth, and countless other planets/lives beyong obliterated.

He stated his reasons for why he chose to do what he did quite clearly. While I don't deny that it might not have been the greatest idea , he gave an explanation as to why he felt it was best to have the kids be the one to defeat Buu. His idea would have worked had Gotenks not fooled around. I really don't see the pussy footing around. At most, you could say he should have turned SSJ3 against Vegeta, but it's debatable if it wouldn't have made things worse in the end.

Also, the only reason he was the one to defeat Buu, albeit only by the power of the dragonballs, was because he ended up being too arrogant to let Gohan (or Gotenks) come and easily mop the floor with kid buu(thus also putting Vegeta and the world of the Kais at risk)

What? I clearly remember him sitting back and letting both Gotenks AND Gohan take care of things and only stepping in when both failed.
When was he "too arrogant"?

[goldsaint13]

Ignoring that Vegeta was in charge of the wishing, while I never saw the episode where Goku assess Kid Buu's power in Japanese, aren't we talking at least a two fold power boost from Super to Kid/Chibi?

I think there's more a power drop from Super to Kid than a boost... Unfortunately for Goku and Vegeta, that drop is not as big as they hoped for... They wanted to revert back Super to Fat, a form Goku SSJ3 can easily beat... They got Kid instead... Not as strong as Super but stronger than Fat and not an easy deal for Goku...

At that point I would have questioned if Gotenk and Gohan were still relevant, and if so, still strong enough to land an ending blow.

They were... But although they can be trusted as strength, could they overall as well?

Nor do we know how Super Sayain 3 Goku would have fared against Super Buu, given that Fat Buu was powerless.

Goku himself said to not having a single chance without Fusion... Against Kid instead, he said that he held a chance... Not only in the beginning, but even after having knew Kid's power...

I believe there's a consensus that Super Sayain 3 Gotenks is a good deal stronger than Goku, which I have always found hard to believe given that all the power-up multipliers are working on two powers vastly smaller than Goku combined. (Forgot how fun the occasional power level discussions can get!)

Fusion, as Goku said, is impressively effective...
SSJ1 Gotenks clearly got a lot stronger than SSJ1 Goku (although weaker than SSJ3 Goku and that's why they were not 100% sure he could defeat Fat Buu)... This makes him obviously stronger as a SSJ3 than Goku... It's math...

I think it is common knowledge that ssj3 Gotenks is stronger than Goku. Goku stated that he and vegeta(together) couldn't even beat super buu in his first form.

And not only that... SSJ1 Gotenks is clearly stronger than SSJ1 Goku... The rest is math...

What? I clearly remember him sitting back and letting both Gotenks AND Gohan take care of things and only stepping in when both failed.
When was he "too arrogant"?

Actually the kids and Gohan are power monsters without control and good strategy... They could be able to halde things but under Goku's guidance is better than by themselves I think...

[dbgtFO]

Ignoring that Vegeta was in charge of the wishing, while I never saw the episode where Goku assess Kid Buu's power in Japanese, aren't we talking at least a two fold power boost from Super to Kid/Chibi?

In the original manga, no. In the Funimation dub, yes. In the anime, probably a lot more. The anime has Goku, Kaioshin and the narrator claiming that Pure Buu is the most powerful Buu, which of course means Goku is fighting a guy much stronger, than the guy he had to use fusion against. It makes no sense and Toei doesn't even try to explain why Goku was supposedly holding back that much power as he's implied to. It just seems like Toei wanted to make the final fight more dramatic for the sake of it.

At that point I would have questioned if Gotenk and Gohan were still relevant, and if so, still strong enough to land an ending blow.

They are in the manga, but not in the anime, due to above.

Nor do we know how Super Sayain 3 Goku would have fared against Super Buu, given that Fat Buu was powerless.

Goku wouldn't stand a chance as he himself admitted.

I believe there's a consensus that Super Sayain 3 Gotenks is a good deal stronger than Goku, which I have always found hard to believe given that all the power-up multipliers are working on two powers vastly smaller than Goku combined. (Forgot how fun the occasional power level discussions can get!)

That's the point of fusion in the first place.

[goldsaint13]

In the original manga, no. In the Funimation dub, yes. In the anime, probably a lot more. The anime has Goku, Kaioshin and the narrator claiming that Pure Buu is the most powerful Buu, which of course means Goku is fighting a guy much stronger, than the guy he had to use fusion against. It makes no sense and Toei doesn't even try to explain why Goku was supposedly holding back that much power as he's implied to. It just seems like Toei wanted to make the final fight more dramatic for the sake of it.

Does the anime show SSJ1 Gotenks stronger than SSJ1 Goku? Of course yes.
Does the anime make Goku state: "I can't fight Super Buu without Fusion"? Yes.
Does the anime make Goku state he could defeat Kid Buu with full charged SSJ3? Yes.

Then Gotenks > Goku is 100% confirmed in the anime too while Super Buu > Kid Buu may be 99% confirmed, leaving a slight doubt...

Kid Buu is the strongest UNFUSED Buu, nothing more...

Beside the monstruous power of Gohan, a fused character is always stronger than an unfused one...

You should take Freezer's saga levels to make a Fusion and not having the fused character stronger than the unfused ones because Fusion is hugely effective...

They are in the manga, but not in the anime, due to above.

I doubt so, again due to above.

That's the point of fusion in the first place.

Of course...

It's stated that SSJ1 Gotenks can do better than SSJ2 Goku... That's more than enough... The rest is math...

[mystic trunks]

Mischi said:
He stated his reasons for why he chose to do what he did quite clearly. While I don't deny that it might not have been the greatest idea , he gave an explanation as to why he felt it was best to have the kids be the one to defeat Buu. His idea would have worked had Gotenks not fooled around. I really don't see the pussy footing around. At most, you could say he should have turned SSJ3 against Vegeta, but it's debatable if it wouldn't have made things worse in the end.

What? I clearly remember him sitting back and letting both Gotenks AND Gohan take care of things and only stepping in when both failed.
When was he "too arrogant"?


I know that he stated the reason. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. He was pussyfooting around because he didn't defeat buu when he had the chance. Period.

After everyone was brought to life( When earth was they had wishes left with theragonballs. They could have just wished any of them there and Kid buu would be easily delt with.

[Michsi]

I know that he stated the reason. But that has absolutely nothing to do with this discussion. He was pussyfooting around because he didn't defeat buu when he had the chance. Period.

Him voicing that reason was put there by there author for a purpose. And it has everything to do with the discussion. This wasn't exactly like the time he let Gohan fight Cell + giving him the senzu, all for the sake of a good fight. He was right in his assumtion that this wouldn't be the last time the earth would have to deal with a super powerfull bad guy.
With him, Gohan and Vegeta gone, the kids were the only ones left with enough potential to do the job. As I said, I don't really agree with his plan but it was plan for the sake of the earth's future. His plan only failed because Gotenks fooled around instead of getting to finish the job.

After everyone was brought to life( When earth was they had wishes left with theragonballs. They could have just wished any of them there and Kid buu would be easily delt with.

They, being everyone, not just Goku. Remember the Kaioshin was there, who could easily teleport to wherever in the Galaxy. So what stopped him from at least voicing that idea. It was a simple case of "oh yeah, there was that option too" . I ,for one, think him refusing the potara fusion was a lot worse but I also think that had more to do with Vegeta. When they still had the first pair, he had been willing to re-fuse again but Vegeta broke his ""Blah, blah my saiyan pride blah blah " Nobody had more to do with shit hitting the fan like Vegeta but yeah that doesn't excuse some of Goku's actions and decisions.

Actually the kids and Gohan are power monsters without control and good strategy... They could be able to halde things but under Goku's guidance is better than by themselves I think...

Yeah, but Goku didn't really have much of a choice in that regard. Gohan and Gotenks were their only chance. Both did fairly well and were thisclose to defeating Buu. Gotenks is pretty much to blame for his and Gohan's failure to defeat Buu. But you present a good reason as to why maybe it was better for them not to have either Gohan and Gotenks come and fight. Goku, while not as strong as them, was a better fighter.

[Masa95000]

You know who was completely useless after Freeza? Vegeta, not Goku..Vegeta.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also found Vegeta post Freeza to be a bit of a whiny bitch constantly crying about his power.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

You know who was completely useless after Freeza? Vegeta, not Goku..Vegeta.

I wholeheartedly agree with you. I also found Vegeta post Freeza to be a bit of a whiny bitch constantly crying about his power.

Vegeta played a part in all three villains following him getting power-ups. I agree that that alone one-ups most of what Goku's done, except perhaps the personal damage, not that Vegeta hasn't done that himself, since the day is always saved anyway.

Yeah, I remember "Twice the power" from the dub. I was working under the assumption of comparing Kid Buu to unfused Super Buu, by the way, as this...

Kid Buu is the strongest UNFUSED Buu, nothing more...

...should be obvious.

[goldsaint13]

Yeah, but Goku didn't really have much of a choice in that regard. Gohan and Gotenks were their only chance. Both did fairly well and were thisclose to defeating Buu. Gotenks is pretty much to blame for his and Gohan's failure to defeat Buu. But you present a good reason as to why maybe it was better for them not to have either Gohan and Gotenks come and fight. Goku, while not as strong as them, was a better fighter.

That's it... When Goku had to return to the Otherworld or when Majin Buu refused into Super Buu, there was no other chance than trust the unbelivable power of Gotenks first and Gohan after him... But Gotenks has been a troublemaker and sent the whole strategy to trash forcing Goku and Vegeta to return to the battlefields... Of course separated they were bugs, so they are forced to fuse and become invincible... Thet would have been the best ending but Toriyama wanted them to be defused again and so he had to invent a weaker Majin Buu that could have been in the range of Goku's strength... And, of course, there has to be found a good series of excuses to not let fight the strongest ones, in the order Vegetto/Gogeta, Gohan and Gotenks... So no Fusion, no kids/teen teleportation... No Vegetto/Gogeta because the Saiyan pride forces them to fight one on one because even Buu is not fused anymore... No Gotenks or Gohan because they are a lot stronger but the risk is that their power without experience would cause more mess than help...

Yeah, I remember "Twice the power" from the dub. I was working under the assumption of comparing Kid Buu to unfused Super Buu, by the way, as this...

I too agree about the fact that Kid Buu is just an unfused Super Buu... As soon as Evil Buu eats Mr.Buu, the clothes changes into Kid Buu's attire, no more mantle and gauntlets... The base of the Super Buu's fusion is Kid Buu...

What are you referring to about that "twice the power"?

...should be obvious.

Yes... Actually Kid Buu is the only unfused Buu, beside maybe Evil Buu and Mr.Buu, but the idea is quite confusing...
Fat Buu is definitely a disadvantageous fusion... Like that of Goku + Mr.Satan...

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Now I'm starting to see why this is debated; I wasn't referring to Evil Buu's ingesting Good Buu, but to the various absorptions. The Buuhan > Buutenks > Kid Buu > Super Buu > Fat Buu model. It could be because of how I read into the nature of evil into Buu's being; add good to evil and you weaken him, remove good from evil and you only strengthen him. Which in turn falls back onto my confusion about how well Goku could have faired against Super Buu; he can massacre Fat Buu but barely keep pace with Kid Buu as SSJ3, while Kid Buu hammers Fat Buu even harder.

As for ending on a fusion, I knew from the start they'd break apart simply because that's too much; the series became way too serious two dozen volumes and 200 episodes ago to pull a sheer WTF ending like that. At least the one we got was in character.

[SuperAndroid11]

Did anyone else stop to ponder this? Yeah he manages to beat Freeza, but he doesn't even kill him(Which is almost useless in and of itself).He leaves his family, not to mention the entire planet at risk. During the android saga, he is out of commission to the point that he doesn't even lay eyes on 17 and 18 before they are absorbed by Cell. He finally catches a quick glimpe of imperfect cell just to disappear. He trains for almost a year, fights Cell, is no match for him and gets blown to Hell. The planet is saved by his 11 year old son. And he refuses to come back and see them(absentee father much? lol) Fast forward to the Buu saga. He gets knocked out cold by vegeta, which leads to Vegeta's death and his son being put in a coma.(though he even admits he could have beaten buu at this point). His son soon becomes much stronger than him(again) and his youngest son and his little 8 year old buddy fuse and become stronger than him as well. And of course in the final fight Goku quickly gasses out and so vegeta has to step in and almost gets killed again. He doesn't even manage to catch his breath(who is he Veku?) without the magical power of the Dragonballs. Then he leaves his family again for an extended period of time.

This sounds like total bullshit to me. I mean Roku basically defeats everyone post Freeze, but Cell (and last time I recalled in the timeline without Roku all the heroes are wiped out but Trunks). Further, all 13 movies are basically Roku hitting someone with a Spirit Bomb.