Movie character designs

[Piccolo Daimao]

What are your opinions on the movie character designs? Which ones do you like, and which do you not? Cipher made a good point on the movie villains in a thread a while back:

You know what my problem with the movie villains are? Absolutely none of them get the Toriyama aesthetic right.

There's one thing Toriyama never does, and that's use predictably evil looking villains. There are no burly muscle men. The movies, by contrast, are absolutely full of them. Garlic Jr. plays the best, being deceptively small and tying nicely into Dragon Ball mythology, but even he has to bust out his muscled form before he can do any real fighting.

Slug's a muscle-bound, over-elaborate maniac. Coola's final form makes his appearance more threatening, which is the exact opposite of what Toriyama does with Freeza, Cell and Buu. The individual Androids #13, #14 and #15 have acceptably Toriyama-esque designs, but again turn into a vaguely threatening wall of muscle for the final act. Bojack's a cackling strongman. Brolli is ... Brolli. Even Janemba goes from cute to ludicrously villainous and threatening, the exact opposite of the Toriyama approach. Wheelo, Bio-Brolli and Hirudegarn are all acceptable plays on B-movie tropes, but again, none of them seem like something Toriyama would ever really draw.

I don't know how Toei failed to pick up on this either, because they certainly have it down pat in GT. Unassuming characters like Luud and Baby are right in line with Toriyama's villain philosophy.

I guess this didn't really answer the question. I just wanted to express why none of the movie villains have ever really hit home for me. They're generic villains all. So I guess, by default I enjoy Garlic Jr., Wheelo, Bio-Brolli, Hirudegarn and Tullece the best. Since the only one of those with a dose of personality is Garlic Jr., I guess he wins it.

Also, maybe we shouldn't just talk about the Z movie characters. What about the DB movie characters too?

What are your thoughts?

[hleV]

But it was AT himself who designed Slug, Coola, Bojack, Broli...

[Cipher]

But it was AT himself who designed Slug, Coola, Bojack, Broli...

Well, that's a pretty fair point, isn't it?

Honestly, I can't remember if I had that in mind or not when I wrote that post. But it still stands that they embrace a very different design philosophy than his in-series villains. Whether it was something of a Toei-mandate ("Hey, make us a threatening, marketable villain!") or Toriyama consciously trying something different when designing for the 45-minute format, I don't know. But it's a notable and interesting disconnect, nonetheless.

The Dragon Ball movie villains tend to fit in more readily with the series, mainly because there was no precedent for what truly evil villains looked like yet, and the series was still in a comedic, anything-goes mode, which the movie villains more or less followed. I'll stand by the idea that Gurumes, Pasta and Bongo could have come right off a Toriyama manga page, if not necessarily a Dragon Ball page. (But picture them in Sandland, give or take some angular drawing style; it works pretty well.) Even then, they \don't feel out of place in Dragon Ball. Lucifer and his demons are pretty close as well. The grunts may be a bit too bandolier-toting, and Lucifer may be a bit too suave for what he normally does (although, Freeza, General Blue), but overall they're pretty similar to the demon pastiches we see throughout the series in the form of Draculaman, Hell's oni, etc. And of course the third movie borrows straight from the series.

As far as the non-villain characters, we really only have the Nausicaa-esque villagers in the first movie (which has been documented), and the random Chinese aesthetic of the third movie, which is ... whatever; I guess they wanted to do something different with the characters. Toei likes to play with costumes and settings a lot in all seventeen movies, probably to be more eye-catching and because they're not constrained by a weekly page count like Toriyama.

But yeah, it's only in the Z movies where the villains start to take this noticeably "big bad" approach. Which, coincidentally, is when the marketing of Dragon Ball started to move toward more standard shonen action mode. (Because, yes, even in Japan, Dragon Ball was "hardcore" for a while, as looking at any early '90s merchandise will indicate.) Even if Toriyama did design a handful of the movie villains, you have to ask, if he had turned in one of his more standard, tongue-in-cheek designs, would Toei have kept it? I don't think something like Chilled would have flown in 90-95, no matter who designed it.

EDIT -- Also, this definitely isn't in-universe. You're condemning a really interesting conversation to an early death by posting it here.

[CobraCookiez]

Now that I think about it I don't really like many of the movie villains, despite liking most of the movies. Not taking into account their personality or motivation, my favorite character design is probably Hildegarn. While most of the villains are amalgamations or carbon copies of the series villains, Hildegarn is pretty damn unique. He's a pretty sucky villain though because his character is just... uh... nothing? While we're on that movie, I love Tapion. Even though he is just Supreme Kai, Chrono, and Link combined. He's really cool and his relationship with Trunks was so "awwwww".

Turles is neat too, I just wish he didn't look exactly like Goku.

My least favorite is Brolly. He's so extreme, he just looks like a parody of a saiyan. Just a whole lot of muscles and grunting.

[Cipher]

My least favorite is Brolly. He's so extreme, he just looks like a parody of a saiyan. Just a whole lot of muscles and grunting.

See, I actually like him because he's distinctly different from most Dragon Ball villains. While most of the movie villains are just generic and muscly enough to be boring, Broli actually crosses over that line into being something unique. We don't really get anything else like him in the franchise. The in-series villains are all either humorous or conceited, but always full of character and their own quirky gimmicks. The movie villains are, as stated, just kind of generic evil strong guys.

But we never quite get another all-out, no-nonsense berserker like Broli. Nor do we get any character with a semblance of a tragic back story. (Not that born-next-to-Goku garbage, but the idea of becoming violently unhinged due to his power; it's light fluff overall, but c'mon, who saw that coming in a Dragon Ball movie?) And in a franchise with silly-putty demons and insect monsters with hypodermic needles for tails, Broli still stands out as being fairly creepy. For once, the villain is just a really strong, unhinged mortal person. And there's something really unnerving about that. Broli's the epitome of, and really all the interesting parts of, the more serious era of Dragon Ball rolled into one.

That said, his overuse in the franchise is extremely annoying, as are a lot of his fans.

[Eire]

Cipher, was it irony?
He crossed the line of stupidity and get lost in land of nonsense.

[Piccolo Daimao]

Also, this definitely isn't in-universe. You're condemning a really interesting conversation to an early death by posting it here.

Oh yeah, shit. I accidentally posted it in the wrong section. Could a moderator move it to the General Franchise Discussion section, please?

[CobraCookiez]

That said, his overuse in the franchise is extremely annoying, as are a lot of his fans.

Yep. I probably would have been alright with him if he was restricted to a single movie. I actually enjoy the first one quite a bit. But the other two... ugh. I've yet to watch the third one all the way through because it's so boring.

[Cipher]

Cipher, was it irony?
He crossed the line of stupidity and get lost in land of nonsense.

No, I think he fulfills a genuine niche in the franchise. He's not charismatic or gimmicky like the main-series villains, and unlike the rest of the generic movie villains, he's actually scary.

Like, Bojack and Slug? They aren't scary. What's their deal? They're just really strong dudes who like hurting people and gloating? I can't even think of any adjectives to describe them.

Android 13? Like the in-series androids but with literally no character traits. (And not in a cool way. At least 14 and 15 are interesting takes on the silent-type personality.)

But Broli? He avoids being another Slug, Bojack or Android 13 by actually being scary. He doesn't monologue. He doesn't have special powers. He doesn't have a gimmick like being a Goku clone, or an Android du jour or a Piccolo-homage, or a magical silly-putty demon, etc. He's just a completely unreasonable, viciously insane Saiyan. I think his hype allows us to lose track of just how unique he actually is in terms of the series.

Yeah, I'm not big on the generic movie villains, but I'll play the part of Broli apologist any day. And I love Movie 11, which basically uses a separate villain but adds a little continuity with previous movies (and why not?).

[jjgp1112]

^Well, at least the dub gave Android 13 an interesting personality, if that counts for anything.

[Cipher]

^Well, at least the dub gave Android 13 an interesting personality, if that counts for anything.

Oops. I meant Super Android 13, specifically, who's basically a non-presence in both versions.

[BlazingFiddlesticks]

Yeah, I'm not big on the generic movie villains, but I'll play the part of Broli apologist any day. And I love Movie 11, which basically uses a separate villain but adds a little continuity with previous movies (and why not?).

Don't forget that dark human element that we haven't seen since World Strongest, due to Gero's almost completely lacking it.

Think I'll just go down the list.

Garlic Jr.- Imp is a demonic Pilaf. Win.

Wheelo- Utterly twisted yet completely ridiculous depending on the camera angle and whether he's dominating or getting thrashed- both of which change every five seconds or so. That sounds like it belongs in Dragon Ball.

Tullece- Gimmick; I still haven't seen Movie 3 in Japanese, but Tullece never did anything I thought was blatantly counter to Goku.

Though it would be a fan dream of mine to see Schemmeul take VegettoEX's challenge and take a wack at Tullece, even if the source material isn't doing him any favors.

Slug- I like Movie 4, but if you're going to steal King Piccolo's story, you've got to do something to match the demon's sheer scare factor. Slug doesn't do that on the design front. But throwing Goku through a truck is morbidly hilarious.

Coola- Agreed. Not subtle enough. Great overall villain design, not really a Toriyama design.

#13- Too ridiculous not to be Toriyama-esque. Super #13 is a disgrace, of course. Random Super Sayain hair does no favors.

Also, big points to Chuck Huber for the dub. Whenever I get Android 13, I have an odd feeling the dub's actually going to be my preferred version.

Broly- I agree very much with Cipher; Broly isn't Toriyama, but he gets to break the rules because he does what he's supposed to incredibly well. He's not supposed to be subtle or humorous (Outside "Hulk Smash!" jokes), he's supposed to be a scary villain in a world where every good guy is a planet buster. And he is. The real problem is, to again agree, that the media hype train doesn't emphasize what actually makes him work so well.

Bojack- I guess he doesn't look Toriyama, but... I always give Bojack a pass for whatever reason. He's a bulky dude. Yeah. His race is one of the series best designs. Wait, there we go.

Janemba- Janemba is Buu without the delicate balance of "living nightmare" and "chocolate fanatic."

That might sound like it loses the whole point, but then you can't tell me that Fat Buu and Super Buu aren't supposed to give off considerably different vibes. Janemba's two forms are just a lot less subtle about it, but the intent is there. It worked a lot better than "evil Goku", I've got to say.

VegettoEX called Janemba "a little fanboy-lovable" on their rundown of the movies on the podcast, something I've actually wanted to ask him about. I took it as a fan reaction to the character similar to the Broly stereotype; I would say Final Janemba does risk falling into that trap.

Hildegarn- Certainly not a Toriyama design, but as character? They got a giant monster to work in Dragon Ball Z. And it kicked arse. I can't possibly be the only one who thinks that was amazing.

[Fox666]

I don't know what you meant. Slug, Coola and his men, the Androids, Broli, Bojack and his men all are characters that Toriyama created.

[Senzu_Bean]

I believe Mr. Toriyama also had input in Janemba "evil" form design. Might be wrong though.

[hleV]

<...> Androids, <...> all are characters that Toriyama created.

Proof or it didn't happen.

I believe Mr. Toriyama also had input in Janemba "evil" form design. Might be wrong though.

Well DaizEX.com doesn't have an entry for Janemba in Dragon Ball Z Character Designs.

[VegettoEX]

At the time I worked on that section, we didn't have information to share. We still don't have any images, but Kanzentai has a quote from the "Golden Warrior" art book about it:

-- So you did the designs for some of the original movie characters.
Yamamuro: Often the pattern was that we'd have [Toriyama] sensei look at the rough designs we had drawn and add corrections. For instance, with the transformed Janenba (note: the enemy character from "The Rebirth of Fusion!! Goku and Vegeta"), the order from the anime staff was for a "demonic-looking character", so I drew a rough design with spiral shapes entwined around his arms and legs, which I showed to sensei. He checked it and sent it back, and that became the real design for transformed Janenba. So the faint blood vessel-like things on his arms and legs are remnants of the rough draft.

[TheDevilsCorpse]

<...> Androids, <...> all are characters that Toriyama created.

Proof or it didn't happen.

DragonBall Z Movie 7
Daizenshuu 6 notes that in Toriyama's height chart, No. 14 is labeled as No. 15, and vice-versa. This seems to have been the original numbers for those artificial humans, but the anime staff later switched them around for some unknown reason.

http://www.kanzentai.com/production.php ... dbz_movies

[hleV]

Awesomeness. Was pretty sure that I've seen that before too, but didn't find it on Daizenshuu EX so assumed it doesn't exist.

[Jackal puFF]

It's so weird that Toriyama drew him with Vegeta hair. Why would you do that you know?

[Piccolo Daimao]

It's so weird that Toriyama drew him with Vegeta hair. Why would you do that you know?

Toriyama often reuses character designs.