Did Dragonball go downhill when it became DBZ?

[Nex Carnifex]

No way that's when it got good. Pre-Radtiz was goofy and fun and stuff but it wasn't anything nearly exciting enough to churn out this kind of fanbase.

[Saiga]

Either it's the fact that God's, well, a god (whether or not you take his statement of "A god cannot commit suicide!" literally) and is therefore immune to the Mafuuba's life-threatening effects, he's so much stronger than Mutaito and Muten Roushi that it's unable to kill him, or it depends on how well you've mastered the technique. Mutaito apparently invented the technique but, like with Kaiou and his Kaiouken, may not have been able to master it. The latter's the same for Muten Roushi, who may've seen his master perform and only try it for real against Daimaou when he was revived.

At least, in the anime, Tenshinhan didn't die when he used it. As an in-universe explanation, Kame-sennin himself mentioned at the 22nd TB that Tenshinhan probably would've won in their match if they'd continued, and unlike with Kame-sennin, Tenshinhan actually uses more power against Gokuu since he was trying to kill him under Tsuru-sennin's orders as revenge for Tao Pai Pai's death. So he's probably stronger than Kame-sennin, thus able to survive using the Mafuuba. Or maybe, since Tenshinhan's presumably more talented than them (he picked it up the "easy" Kamehameha, firing an even more potent one than Yamcha or Kuririn's, after seeing it once, and learned the technique in, like, only a few days), he'd mastered it more than his predecessors and control the ki or whatever. He could survive something like the Kikouhou, at least.

Or, OR, God can't kill himself... but he can die from the Mafuba's effect, and that is the true purpose behind his gambit. Regardless of whether the Mafuba works or not, he will die and therefore so will Piccolo.

Although I'm pretty sure he says he won't kill Piccolo which destroys that theory.

[DarkPrince_92]

No way that's when it got good. Pre-Radtiz was goofy and fun and stuff but it wasn't anything nearly exciting enough to churn out this kind of fanbase.

Exactly. I feel DBZ made the fanbase what it was. A lot of people started with DBZ, then loved it and went to see what Dragon Ball was about, which is what I did. A lot of times you mention the series to someone who isn't a hardcore fan, but is familiar always include the Z when mentioning Dragon Ball.

[Aoi]

I enjoyed all of the Dragon Ball Z arcs of the series probably more than the DB part. My room very accurately shows which arcs I like the most and though DB part has its own place I like DBZ(Raditz and onward) more. I love the concept of fusions and the designs. Even though there are a few things that make you wanna scream at the television during the Buu saga I just enjoy it. I laugh during Dragon Ball just as much if not more than sit there and think " this is so bad ass".

^^ This. Basically, I feel Akumaito Beam has valid points. However, any show can be overlooked in this way I feel. "Batman: The Animated Series"= "pretentious, stupid, unrealistic, repetitive". Etc. I stated once how (to me, and hell even the kids I teach) Luffy in One Piece stopped being interesting after Episode 150, let alone 600+ now. However, we as fans choose to over look these things. To ME , Goku is fascinating and Toriyama's ultimate success is in the fact that he chose to under use him. Legendary genius. I adore Goku's role in the Cell ark. The entire character is redeemed. He finally becomes the father Gohan always needed, teaches him wonderful values and in the end its his faith in him that pays off (even sacrificing himself and guiding him from the other world). It's, to me, the peak of Dragon Ball. Yes, over the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai. It's ultimately where GT fails. Goku is not an easy character to write. I also love how he's not 100% moral and has obvious character flaws. There's a reason why this show has struck a cord with multiple generations around the 4 corners of the globe. It isn't everyone's cup of tea though (your points demonstrate this).

One thing...I do think your reference to Star Wars is very appropriate. However, I'd put "GT" more in line with the "tired expanded Universe/Prequel trilogy". Those films over-used every cliche known to the series...which is exactly what GT does. It's tiring. "Z", to me, is perfect particularly because I always don't want it to end. I can't say the same for GT hahaha . Great conversations man. I'm interested in hearing your views on other aspects of the series.

[Bussani]

Is it a result of that? It seemed like a lot of those moments are just rehashes of Goku coming back from Karin tower after drinking the holy water and everyone being amazed at how much he's changed. It seems like Goku has been "enlightened!" and "totally different now!" 3 or 4 different times then he gets a bad-ass zen pose and proceeds to turns back into Goku whenever it stops being cool. On top of that Gohan also had his fair share of those exact moments too.

I suppose that's true for when he shows up to save the day, but I was thinking of other moments. Like when he wakes up after recovering from his heart disease, and he's just like, "Everyone just chill out. I know what's going on. I'm no match for them either, but I know exactly what to do." Also, like I said, how he takes quite a different approach to training, and how he seems to know when resting instead of pushing yourself harder is better.

No way that's when it got good. Pre-Radtiz was goofy and fun and stuff but it wasn't anything nearly exciting enough to churn out this kind of fanbase.

The Daimao and 23rd tournament arcs weren't exactly "goofy and fun".

[Chuquita]

I don't think it went downhill, the circumstances just changed. I think post-Freeza everyone got a little too strong too fast; there might have been another way, I like the slower-burn One Piece is doing for increasing strength. I think it's interesting to both have characters that are really strong, but not so strong that threats to them don't seem as dire. The martial arts and kaio-ken are more interesting to me than beam attack and ssj. I would've liked if the initial creepy-ness of the Cell arc stuck around longer. I think more could've been done on Earth before we went to the outer-space villains. I think you could've kept the cast out in space post-Freeza longer and done another outer-space arc with more adventure in it; Goku could still have trouble controlling himself in ssj during that time so it wouldn't be super-easy for him; you'd have Vegeta around to explain outer-space society stuff. You could even have actually gone entirely through a whole martial arts tournament, but maybe that wouldn't be as satisfying since Goku had already won one? I dunno.

[LiamKav]

The Piccolo Daimao arc did revolve around putting an ancient evil into a rice cooker. DragonBall, even when it was being serious, still had the goofy stuff. Z did this too, but not to quite the same degree.

"Batman: The Animated Series"= "pretentious, stupid, unrealistic, repetitive".

*explodes*

[Aoi]

I watched the Freeza arc (1-2 eps a night w/ family) about ...hmm...1 month ago. This time, I noticed a few things differently than I had last time. Firstly, the series is paced fine throughout the Namek story. The fight between Goku and Freeza is very well animated up until Goku turns SSJ. The only time where it became a problem were the 4-5 eps in a row of SSJ Goku and Freeza staring at each other. The idea that the Freeza arc is the lowest point in the series only makes sense when comparing it to the great stuff that came after. The arc itself is solid.

This really has to do with the production of the show rather than Toriyama's style. In fact, it's the only time where (if I had to show DB to someone new) I'd pop in Dragon Ball Kai for the entire Freeza fight (lasts 20 eps in DBZ, lasts 11 episodes in Kai). It's basically the director's cut I had been hoping for since I was 10-12 years old. The rest of the series is perfectly paced. In fact, the filler during the Buu/Cell arcs are wonderfully creative. Even before that it's solid, especially for new viewers.

[Akumaito Beam]

I suppose that's true for when he shows up to save the day, but I was thinking of other moments. Like when he wakes up after recovering from his heart disease, and he's just like, "Everyone just chill out. I know what's going on. I'm no match for them either, but I know exactly what to do." Also, like I said, how he takes quite a different approach to training, and how he seems to know when resting instead of pushing yourself harder is better.

Our definitions of showing up to save the day must differ because coming out of the heart virus to me seems exactly like that rehashed to death plot point, but at this point Goku was completely unusable so his "cool" moment had to be "Don't worry guys, I'm worthless but I know a side character that can TOTALLY be interesting for a few more chapters."

I adore Goku's role in the Cell ark. The entire character is redeemed. He finally becomes the father Gohan always needed, teaches him wonderful values and in the end its his faith in him that pays off (even sacrificing himself and guiding him from the other world). It's, to me, the peak of Dragon Ball. Yes, over the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Don't get me wrong, I like the sentiment but it just feels little too late at this point. 70 episodes of "PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* etc. etc. etc." isn't going to be forgivable by one nice character moment in my book.Going back to Star Wars I love the character design of the aliens in Episode 1-3 and the music but the movies are SO bad in every other way shape and form I'm willing to just write off those two positives off as damaged goods brought down by the rest of the terrible nonsense. Of course then the Boo arc rolls around and any emotional impact the Cell arc had in perceived finality is crushed under the boot with the same weight of the star villain, and that's another (albeit a late) example of the story falling to the wayside to make way for more transformations and laser beams.

[Aoi]

I suppose that's true for when he shows up to save the day, but I was thinking of other moments. Like when he wakes up after recovering from his heart disease, and he's just like, "Everyone just chill out. I know what's going on. I'm no match for them either, but I know exactly what to do." Also, like I said, how he takes quite a different approach to training, and how he seems to know when resting instead of pushing yourself harder is better.

Our definitions of showing up to save the day must differ because coming out of the heart virus to me seems exactly like that rehashed to death plot point, but at this point Goku was completely unusable so his "cool" moment had to be "Don't worry guys, I'm worthless but I know a side character that can TOTALLY be interesting for a few more chapters."

I adore Goku's role in the Cell ark. The entire character is redeemed. He finally becomes the father Gohan always needed, teaches him wonderful values and in the end its his faith in him that pays off (even sacrificing himself and guiding him from the other world). It's, to me, the peak of Dragon Ball. Yes, over the 23rd Tenkaichi Budokai.

Don't get me wrong, I like the sentiment but it just feels little too late at this point. 70 episodes of "PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION* etc. etc. etc." isn't going to be forgivable by one nice character moment in my book.Going back to Star Wars I love the character design of the aliens in Episode 1-3 and the music but the movies are SO bad in every other way shape and form I'm willing to just write off those two positives off as damaged goods brought down by the rest of the terrible nonsense. Of course then the Boo arc rolls around and any emotional impact the Cell arc had in perceived finality is crushed under the boot with the same weight of the star villain, and that's another (albeit a late) example of the story falling to the wayside to make way for more transformations and laser beams.

Like I said, the fans of the show just don't see it that way. Again, any show can be written off at its core like that. From Breaking Bad to One Piece. Although I did view certain points as interesting pieces of criticism, you typing "*TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION*" has 0 merit. You can honestly describe any show in the same light ("100 episodes of "pow pow pow...Gomu Gomu Rocket!!...pow pow!!"). I for one find that brilliant (the Transformations). Especially since "Z" was the first to do this. Unlike certain shows, I like the fact that the series changes drastically (the fighting dynamics) per arc to keep it interesting. I'm not someone who likes it because of "nostalgia" either. I actually fell in love with the show when I saw the Japanese version at 23. It's ironic because I remember buying the orange bricks just to show my gf at the time: "Hun, look at this cheesy/crappy show I used to love". Instead I ended up loving the show more than ever before.

[The Time Traveller]

My favourite part of the series would probably be the 21st Tenka'ichi Budoukai, but I honestly think that the series got better and better as it went along, the ending was really good. GT can be either accepted for what it is or ignored completely but it doesn't really matter compared to what other people are talking about.

[Fin]

Having given this some more thought, I think one of the reasons I don't enjoy the latter part of the story as much is the shift of focus from ushering in a new era of martial arts to fighting off supervillains. The tournaments were a major part of what I liked in the early stories, and even the Dragon Ball quests were littered with references to martial arts history. I can see why this was lost -- once Goku had become the strongest on Earth the next logical step was to explore the galaxy -- but it was still a shame to see that aspect of the series go, and it really bugs me how after all the focus on the martial arts world the heroes just stop participating in it and everything they do is kept secret from humanity.

[Akumaito Beam]

Like I said, the fans of the show just don't see it that way. Again, any show can be written off at its core like that. From Breaking Bad to One Piece. Although I did view certain points as interesting pieces of criticism, you typing "*TRANSFORMATION* PEW PEW PEW PEW *TRANSFORMATION*" has 0 merit. You can honestly describe any show in the same light ("100 episodes of "pow pow pow...Gomu Gomu Rocket!!...pow pow!!").

I was being cutesy here to avoid being overly redundant myself but the point I was trying to get across was Toriayama was being overly reliant on a single boring, tired gimmick executed in an incredibly similar fashion time and time again to an incredibly laughable extent. Which is in stark contrast to the usual risk taking of Dragon Ball. I suspect you were somewhat aware though.

I for one find that brilliant (the Transformations). Especially since "Z" was the first to do this. Unlike certain shows, I like the fact that the series changes drastically (the fighting dynamics) per arc to keep it interesting. I'm not someone who likes it because of "nostalgia" either. I actually fell in love with the show when I saw the Japanese version at 23. It's ironic because I remember buying the orange bricks just to show my gf at the time: "Hun, look at this cheesy/crappy show I used to love". Instead I ended up loving the show more than ever before.

I'm not entirely sure what you mean by "Z" being the first to do the transformation trope but I'm going to assume you don't mean historically but rather in terms of the series as a whole. I would argue Goku had two transformations in Dragon Ball, albeit one not so physical. The first would be his Great Ape form and the second would be his post Holy Water form which implies that Goku's Great Ape power is harnessed in his rational human body much like Gohan's "Ultimate" transformation. Ignoring that, let's say transformations were a new thing. That still doesn't mean it isn't lazy writing to abuse your gimmick to laughably silly extents throughout multiple arcs.

As for the fighting dynamics changing, that's sort of my issue exactly. They slowly changed to be nothing but people's favorite parts of Dragonball. Every KI beam is "THE BIGGEST KI BEAM", every punch is "THE HARDEST AND FASTEST PUNCH" and when everything is HUUUUUUGE nothing is so the scale just ends up looking really stupidly exaggerated and we were working on an exaggerated scale to begin with. (Which spins around nicely to my Light Saber and Force comparison a couple posts back because that's exactly what happened there too.) As a result the fighting turns into bland samey overly flashy mush.

I think we might kind of be talking in circles now though.

Edit: I should note that I do realize that Toriyama was pandering the the fan base since the 21st Tenkaichi Budokai, I'm just saying it caught up with him.

[Snail]

The proof is in the pudding.

I can't imagine how mindblowing the plot twist must have been for the fans who followed the series from the first episode of Dragonball with no exposition as to what was coming up next.

Think of it this way:

- Goku has a brother. Oh, and he's an alien. Wow.
- Goku and Piccolo, the series' strongest hero and villain is about to team up. The two actually build a sense of camaraderie in the process.
- Goku dies.
- Goku's son is a freak of nature.
- Raditz is next to nothing compared to Vegeta & Nappa
- You get to explore the afterlife with Goku
- Your favourite cast of characters are defeated with ease (Chiaotzu, Tien, Yamcha, Kururin, Piccolo)
- Piccolo...is also an alien.

etc. etc.

And the twists continue on with the Jinzoningen arc.

Yes, it is somewhat of a downfall in which the mythical tone of the series was thrown out the window. However, for what it's worth the series was able to expand and touch upon nearly every genre of the game; resulting in an insane following and becoming an international success.

[LiamKav]

Think of it this way:

- Goku has a brother. Oh, and he's an alien. Wow.
- Goku and Piccolo, the series' strongest hero and villain is about to team up. The two actually build a sense of camaraderie in the process.
- Goku dies.
- Goku's son is a freak of nature.
- Raditz is next to nothing compared to Vegeta & Nappa
- You get to explore the afterlife with Goku
- Your favourite cast of characters are defeated with ease (Chiaotzu, Tenshinhan, Yamcha, Kururin, Piccolo)
- Piccolo...is also an alien.

etc. etc.

And the twists continue on with the Jinzoningen arc.

Except that the twists are largely repetitions of point 3 (although "dies" is sometimes "out of action for some reason), point 5 (Vegeta is nothing compared to the Ginyu Force, the Ginyu Force are nothing compared to Freeza, Freeza is nothing compared to the artificial humans and so on), and point 7.

I would also add in "former villian joins the good guys", but that had been happening since Yamcha.

[Akumaito Beam]

I'd argue just because something is a big plot twist that doesn't necessarily mean it's a good plot twist or that it's well executed. Not that I don't agree with a good chunk of your list, as I said I do enjoy the Saiyan and Freeza arcs to some extent. Piccolo and Goku teaming up and gaining at least a little mutual respect and Gohan are the main reasons I use Dead Zone as a capper when I watch/read Dragon Ball. That and Goku exploring the after life is kickin' rad. However stuff like Goku's terrible origin story and Goku's friends slowly being annihilated one by one being done and done better in the Piccolo Daimao arc is a good example of some of the main issues I have with Z's "plot". Then we have something which was unique and cool at the time like a large threat being completely dwarfed by an upcoming threat that was run into the ground extremely early on.

I don't know if I agree that the Z portion made Dragon Ball because the franchise was already huge in Japan but I won't deny the more you listen to the majority and give them what they want the more you will sell, I think that's pretty much a given.

[LiamKav]

I won't deny the more you listen to the majority and give them what they want the more you will sell, I think that's pretty much a given.

I dunno. I think the trick is not giving them what they want, but what they need. And often they don't know what they need.

[Snail]

Think of it this way:


- Goku dies.

- Raditz is next to nothing compared to Vegeta & Nappa


etc. etc.

And the twists continue on with the Jinzoningen arc.

Except that the twists are largely repetitions of point 3 (although "dies" is sometimes "out of action for some reason), point 5 (Vegeta is nothing compared to the Ginyu Force, the Ginyu Force are nothing compared to Freeza, Freeza is nothing compared to the artificial humans and so on), and point 7.

I would also add in "former villian joins the good guys", but that had been happening since Yamcha.

Of course.

I was trying to emphasize the shock value the Saiyan arc must have harbored amongst audiences at the time of its premiere in manga/anime form. You follow a character for 153 episodes and suddenly it turns out the protagonist is the spawn of an alien race with a semi-rich back-story included. In the context of the story at that point, for the first time the power difference between the heroes and the opposition was immense.

[Gaffer Tape]

I would also add in "former villian joins the good guys", but that had been happening since Yamcha.

Actually, that's been happening since Oolong. He was the very first.

[Bussani]

Our definitions of showing up to save the day must differ because coming out of the heart virus to me seems exactly like that rehashed to death plot point, but at this point Goku was completely unusable so his "cool" moment had to be "Don't worry guys, I'm worthless but I know a side character that can TOTALLY be interesting for a few more chapters."

I suppose you can look at it that way. But then, do you mind telling me what these supposed strategies Goku gained and then lost were?