Death Battle! Goku VS Superman Disscussion Thread

[TonyTheTiger]

This is where reading between the lines is useful along with thinking in terms of narrative intent. Is the audience supposed to interpret the scene as, "Wow, check out how fast that beam is," or are they supposed to think, "Holy shit, that guy just blew up the moon!"? If we start taking everything we see as literal then pretty much every character in fiction is either superhuman or living in a parallel universe that has completely different physics than our own.

After all, Superman is just as screwy since he can apparently hear cries of help faster and farther than sound can travel, making his various sensory powers come across more like ESP as opposed to what we're meant to interpret them as. His X-Ray vision is essentially Magic vision since there are no physics that could explain how it works. It sure as hell doesn't work like real X-Rays, at least.

[Hellspawn28]

Ben said that the fight won't end on a draw. So we know now that either Superman or Goku is going to win.

[Attitudefan]

@Bussani:

Power levels and real world distances are not what the author had in mind, which you agree with; I think with Raditz, the Light of Death is named for a reason this time. Let me explain briefly, by naming Piccolo's attack Light of Death, readers assume that the attack has to be roughly as fast as light because the author implies that by naming the attack as such. Therefore, Raditz seems much more powerful and faster than anyone in the last tournament, in which, by the way, the fighters moved faster than visible light to the human eye. By naming the attack as that, the fighters can, at the very least, dodge at that speed. Toriyama was a writer, not a mathematician or a physicist. He is going to build up characters and story through dialogue and textual devices such as the Light of Death.
What bothers me is that fans assume that the characters can be given real world physics and calculate how fast or powerful they are; the author does not think to much about them other than implying or directly saying that they are faster than x or y. His implications may contradict each other in visualization, especially in the anime. Goku runs slowly across Snake Way to build tension, yet, Goku could fly, more or less, the speed of light. This example is the case of the author contradicting his previous narrative construction of Goku. As long as the audience is immersed in the story, feeling tension, getting behind characters and comedy for example, then the author did his job right. In this case, fans believe that these power levels are true and can be tested within the show; I think Toriyama did his job just fine.

[TheMightyOzaru]

Goku cannot fly at the speed of light, it would consume way to much energy. I think they use near instant speed in short bursts to dodge these FTL Ki attacks. Since that would consume little energy its a practical solution to come to.

[Attitudefan]

Goku cannot fly at the speed of light, it would consume way to much energy. I think they use near instant speed in short bursts to dodge these FTL Ki attacks. Since that would consume little energy its a practical solution to come to.

I feel the same way as you do actually. I guess, like dodging in real life, you move faster in short bust than running (or flying).

However, that gives Goku, even in his younger days, pretty darn fast

[Bussani]

Power levels and real world distances are not what the author had in mind, which you agree with; I think with Raditz, the Light of Death is named for a reason this time. Let me explain briefly, by naming Piccolo's attack Light of Death, readers assume that the attack has to be roughly as fast as light because the author implies that by naming the attack as such. Therefore, Raditz seems much more powerful and faster than anyone in the last tournament, in which, by the way, the fighters moved faster than visible light to the human eye. By naming the attack as that, the fighters can, at the very least, dodge at that speed. Toriyama was a writer, not a mathematician or a physicist. He is going to build up characters and story through dialogue and textual devices such as the Light of Death.

I don't hear "Light of Death" (or "Demon Pierce Light Kill Cannon" as it's known in Japanese) and assume that means it travels at the speed of light. I'm not trying not to--I just don't. You say "readers assume", but what you mean is "I assume". Which is fine, but if we don't assume the same things, I don't see how we can ever really agree.

If anything, "Demon Piercing Light" makes me think of a spiritual light rather than physics and speeds and whatnot. Like "the light of God" or "I've seen the light".

[dario03]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

[Sinestro]

That preview was pretty cool. One line was hilarious.

Superman: "You're insane!"

[Bussani]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen?

I was going to talk about this in my above post, but I decided to stay concise instead. My answer would be no: you don't need to be faster than light to be faster than the eye can see. In fact, I've never understood the idea that being faster than light would make you invisible. Would you dodge between the light? It's like saying that being faster than the speed of sound means you won't make a sound, or that being faster than water would allow you to travel through water without getting wet.

[Attitudefan]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

We know Goku and Friends can block and dodge a bullet with ease but they couldn't even see Raditz flying around them. So, Piccolo's attack must have been faster than when Raditz ran towards them, which also would give Piccolo confidence that it would be fast enough to kill Goku.

[dario03]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

We know Goku and Friends can block and dodge a bullet with ease but they couldn't even see Raditz flying around them. So, Piccolo's attack must have been faster than when Raditz ran towards them, which also would give Piccolo confidence that it would be fast enough to kill Goku.

That doesn't really explain why being faster than what normal people can see would make you beyond light speed. I mean heck I've dodged ~250fps airsoft pellets before (not normally since thats pretty fast and they're hard to see) but I sure as heck wouldn't want to try that with a bullet from a real gun (1000-4000fps). Like wise dodging bullets doesn't require you to be any where near light speed, since light speed is 983,571,056fps or about 400,000 times faster than a average bullet.

[Mewzard]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

We know Goku and Friends can block and dodge a bullet with ease but they couldn't even see Raditz flying around them. So, Piccolo's attack must have been faster than when Raditz ran towards them, which also would give Piccolo confidence that it would be fast enough to kill Goku.

So, what you're saying is...he's faster than a speeding bullet? More powerful than a locomotive? Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound? THIS AMAZING STRANGER FROM THE PLANET VEGETA, THE MAN OF HAIR, RADITZ! *insert Fleischer Superman music here*

But yes, if all dodging speed is faster than flight speed by so much, then why would Piccolo assume he could hit such a faster foe than him already? Besides, they punched at the guy before, they saw some of that dodging speed.

Frankly I think he was more shocked someone dodged an attack instead of countering it, or taking it like an idiot (like most seem to do, staring at attacks rather than moving; if you can think "I won't make it!" and have a small mental conversation, then you have enough time to immediately react and dodge if these attacks are so close to light speed).

[dario03]

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

We know Goku and Friends can block and dodge a bullet with ease but they couldn't even see Raditz flying around them. So, Piccolo's attack must have been faster than when Raditz ran towards them, which also would give Piccolo confidence that it would be fast enough to kill Goku.

So, what you're saying is...he's faster than a speeding bullet? More powerful than a locomotive? Able to leap tall buildings in a single bound? THIS AMAZING STRANGER FROM THE PLANET VEGETA, THE MAN OF HAIR, RADITZ! *insert Fleischer Superman music here*

But yes, if all dodging speed is faster than flight speed by so much, then why would Piccolo assume he could hit such a faster foe than him already? Besides, they punched at the guy before, they saw some of that dodging speed.

Frankly I think he was more shocked someone dodged an attack instead of countering it, or taking it like an idiot (like most seem to do, staring at attacks rather than moving; if you can think "I won't make it!" and have a small mental conversation, then you have enough time to immediately react and dodge if these attacks are so close to light speed).

*goes to watch death of Piccolo by Nappa in DBZ Abridged*

[Master Turbo]

I'm sorry, I thought that the mere notion that a real human in real life can survive under a minute in space and that the fact that what kills him first in real life is the lack of oxygen and not something else, would be enough for anyone to understand that Goku, who is almost incomprehensibly stronger and resistant than a mere real human, would be fine in space as long as he stayed there for a limited time and what would really trouble him would be the lack of oxygen more than anything else (just like a real human).

I don't think anyone is saying that Goku wouldn't have more trouble in space than Superman, so I don't really understand what your point is.

I'm sorry, I don't think I was being clear enough. What I was trying to say is that I disagree and I don't think Goku would be just fine in outer space considering the manga and anime says differently. The thing I said earlier was in response to if a normal human were to be instantly thrown out into outer space itself. Traveling there from Earth is quite a bit different. If normal humans possessed the ability to fly out into space we would never make it pass the troposphere assuming we could even get pass the rapidly increasing and decreasing temperatures of the stratosphere as we fly higher up and definitely not pass the mesopshere.

Assuming Goku functioned like a normal human he would be in greater dangers in the layers of our atmosphere that have incredible wind currents than he would in outer space since wind/air currents greatly increases the cold factor drawing body heat from you faster than it would in the depths of space where there are no air current. Technically speaking Goku had trouble breathing on Kami's look out and that looks close to the tropopause point in our atmosphere and nearly froze to death during his first trip to Jingle Village. Going into space would be very unkind to Goku if he even makes it that far.

Depending on what layer in our atmosphere Goku is facing Superman in he's going to have more problems with that than fighting him and since they are using the anime Goku better make sure Superman doesn't punch him into the thermosphere or he's burning to death within seconds there or Superman's checking Goku out in the mesosphere because he's to busy suffocating and freezing to death to fight back. I'm not even sure he could teleport back to Earth if he's in too much pain to concentrate. Being in space would be an advantage for Superman considering depending where they are at in the atmosphere Goku is only to have to constantly be teleporting back to Earth in seconds so what's the point of fighting then?

Goku crosses Namek in seconds. The description says the battle was at the other side of Namek. I also don't believe it took Gohan 20 minutes to get their if he went all out. He didn't seem tired afterwards.

Actually, no. The entire fight with Freeza took place no that far from his spaceship which was visible from wherever Goku and co. where fighting Freeza so no, Viz mistranslation is simply wrong, Goku did not cross Namek in section. Hell, Goku even mentions the battle is very close by and why would Gohan say it took him 20 minutes in base form if it didn't and he did appear to be going full speed too, but again why says this if its false? Gohan at that level of power he had wouldn't get tired from flying that fast for 20 minutes either...

I talked a bit about that in another thread. The reason I don't usually mention the part about air trapped in the lungs is that it's only a problem if you try to hold your breath. In hypothetical situations, I've always asked if Saiyan lungs were powerful enough to avoid the problem. We are talking about people who can walk around in hundreds of times Earth's gravity with their hearts still pumping blood to their brains, after all.

But then you also have people like Kuririn possibly capable of doing the exact same thing only to suffer from cold environments exactly like a normal human would be so that isn't saying much, you also have Goku panting and heaving looking rather exhausted trying to breath after running on Kami's look out for a period of time. That place seems somewhere between the near the tropopause so Goku had trouble breathing after exerting effort in a place between with one tenth the air compared to down below on the surface. From the tropopause to the stratopause the air will decrease from one tenth to one thousandth. I have my doubt Goku will able to fight very long if at all way up there.

Eh, you've got me there. I oversimplified things too much since, in humans at least, oxygen has stopped reaching the brain way before ebullism becomes a problem (thus "it's the lack of air that gets you"). But would it be the same for Saiyans? During experiments, humans have lasted for hours in vacuum chambers just by wearing skin-tight suits. Goku's skin is undoubtedly stronger than a human's, so it's hard to say what the effect on his body would be.

That's a lot different than experiencing the real thing considering a tight suit isn't going to protect you from passing out in the troposphere let alone freezing to death in the lower region of the stratosphere. Also, those are controlled environments to make sure they don't accidentally kill someone, its not exactly the same thing. Considering Goku's skin during the Red Ribbon arc was definitely far far superior to a normal human he still nearly froze to death just like any normal human would and he has trouble breathing in thinner air, though to be fair he can't handle it a lot better than a normal human would be capable of handling, but even still he's susceptible to suffocating to death if under the right circumstances.

Goku challenging Superman isn't remotely out of character. It's the preemptive attack mid-sentence and arguably picking a fight in the middle of a presumably crowded city that might be. But given that they need some excuse to get the two to fight it's necessary for somebody to take the first swing. And who's more likely to do it? Goku or Superman?

Might be? That totally is out of character. Goku would never pick a fight and throw down in any kind of crowded city. He always takes the fight to a desolated empty area where no one will be caught in the crossfire. That's the first thing he suggested when he found 19 and Gero. Goku isn't going to risk anyone's life just for a fight. If Goku is going to ask someone to fight he's going to do it in a more polite way, he's not going to randomly attack anyone that refuses or doesn't want too just to keep escalating the issue nor would he be a dick about it either. Also, if Superman is caught in a fight with a hostile super powered individual the first thing he's going to do is take the person fair away from populated areas to fight him, he's not going to do battle in the middle of Metropolis either. Superman might as well have acted out of character t and simply lobotomized Goku's brain with heat vision and save himself the trouble since Goku was apparently out for blood. I mean they got some things right about Superman, but that's about it. Now that I think about it has Goku ever actually displayed telekinetic abilities in a fight before, I can't recall any specific examples, especially when he's been disabled.

Whoops, my bad; the manga does not say that. However, the manga, at least in Viz's translation, is that Raditz dodges roughly around that speed. Piccolo says, and I'm remembering the quote from the top of my head, "He side stepped it... no one can dodge so quickly!" implying that Raditz does move as fast as light; Piccolo's attack is the LIGHT OF FREAKIN' DEATH. So yeah, I'm sure by the end of the manga they travel way faster than light when fighting. I also would say they go that fast because when they fight they exit the visible range of the human eye. Remember the Budokai's and the fight with Yamcha/Saibaiman.

If you want to be technical, its called Makankosappo which translate to demonic piercing beam cannon. Funimation almost did an accurate translation of it, just replace special with demonic instead.

Point is, name's not the issue. Raditz was faster than anyone Piccolo's ever faced up to that point, of course he's surprised he can dodge.

As for dodging speed vs traveling speed, these guys are constantly trying to dodge at high speeds. It's not as consistent as a straight flight, but it's not like they don't have to dodge rapid strikes in many cases. If they could dodge at the speed of light, then there is no place on the planet they couldn't get to instantly with little effort (they would move right back to where they stand in a sixth of a second, that's almost no time at all).

I never understood why people try to make a distinct between travel and combat speed in Dragon ball. its exactly the same thing, they travel x amount of distance in a fight be it in a straight line or running around in a circle. Usually in fights they travel all the way up to their top speed in an instant, but that's still travel speed just over shorter distance compared to longer ones. As for ki blasts hitting the moon, Toriyama doesn't care about actual time and distance in something like that. It would have been the same effect if the moon was on the other side of the universe, the characters would have stilled move infinitely slower than that example right afterwards.

However, Goku could use it like he did against Mecha Coola. I mean, as he is in the technique he could blast Supes away.

I never liked Toei's interpretation of IT because they treat it like some pocket dimension where time seems to be frozen when Goku enters it where he moves just as fast as he normally would in the normal dimension before exiting it into the real dimension at a different location. Similar to night crawler's teleportation from X-men or Blueno's door door dimension ability from One Piece. It doesn't appear to be portrayed like that in any other instance like in movie 8 it appears Goku enters some form of hyper space or whatever when using it, but then in GT it seems irrelevant if anyone with keen hearing can predict where he's going to be by just listening to the sound it makes when he uses it or something along those lines.

Even without instant translocation, all the Z-Senshi travel faster than the speed of light. Dodging ki attacks are exactly that, and that was accomplished early on in Dragonball.

There are actually multiple instance where a character will literally outrun or outfly any form of ki attacks such as Raditz outrunning the Kamehameha, Gohan out flying Recoome's mouth blast, No.17, outrunning Piccolo's ki blast on Cell, and many more. The anime and movie is filled to the brink with them to the point that it is highly inconsistent and unreliable.

Also, after training with Kami, Goku and co don't use their eyes to find someone, but feel them out; every little bit of air that surrounds them and disturbed can be felt. Superman has no such ability, he is not a martial artist and not much of a fighter

Actually, Superman can accomplish the same thing by use of senses such as touch and hearing that makes him completely aware of the environments such as the tiniest if disturbance through the air due to his senses being far greater and more keen than an animal with senses more enhanced than a normal human. Also, Superman is actually a pretty decent fighter. Being a martial artist is overrated and what really matters is a person's effectiveness and adaptability to any combat. Superman's fighting experience greatly exceeds Goku's own fighting experience because he's constantly fighting many people that has stats comparable to his own so he's allowed to learn, grow, and improved. This very thing is mentioned during his battle with Ultraman where he's able to easily read through his movements and quickly overwhelm him with proper fighting techniques such as pressure points, combats blows to weak points such as liver blows, to the temple, and such even though they have equal stats. This same thing is mentioned during the New Krypton arc where the 100,000 kandor-city kryptonians freed from being shrunken in that bottle city by Brainiac are on their own world opposite Earth's orbit and Superman schools a fellow kryptonian despite them having the same power levels. Its also noted the considerable between Superman and the other kryptonians is that he's had a lifetime to explore every single advantage that his power set offers him while everyone else has only had their powers for a few days.

Goku by comparison has really small fighting experience when fighting someone of comparable level. When he has a significant strength advantage he can't learn since he's too strong and godstomps his opponent like how he effortlessly stomped Kurrin during the 22nd Budokai or oneshot people like King Chappa due to the overwhelming strength gap. The amount of times Goku has a significant people where he can actually grow and learn from it would probably be less than 15 compared to Superman's over several dozens if not over a hundred (Superman's been in the game since from 1986 to 2011, that is a lot of time to constantly fight people on your own level). People tend to forget that the majority of the time Goku is considerably stronger or weaker than who ever he's fighting. If anything Superman should have a decent skill advantage over Goku if anything in my honest people.

The only reason he wins is that he is invincible, faster than most beings other than those in Dragonball, and he is super strong. But if Goku is runing around all over the place, Superman cannot track him. CANNOT AT ALL. He would be lost, much like Freeza did against the Z-Senshi after he transformed; and by then, they were traveling much faster than Raditz and Piccolo Jr. Goku defeated Freeza you know.

That's not really true about Superman and is a pretty big misconception actually, at least for post crisis Superman (1986-2011), I don't know about the current different continuity Superman though.

Us Kanzenshuu folks did provide them with gobs of research, but it was mostly on Goku's power and abilities. Maybe we didn't provide enough on his personality?

Even if you did they would probably still ignore it. No one likes Goku's actual character they like their own version of Goku.

After all, Superman is just as screwy since he can apparently hear cries of help faster and farther than sound can travel, making his various sensory powers come across more like ESP as opposed to what we're meant to interpret them as. His X-Ray vision is essentially Magic vision since there are no physics that could explain how it works. It sure as hell doesn't work like real X-Rays, at least.

Lol, exactly. Superman does that all the time like during Infinite Crisis he heard Earth 2 Superman's cries while he was on another planet and immediately flew to the other planet because he heard he was in distressed. Now there's all kind of wrong with that, but it happens anyway. Almost all his sensory powers come across like ESP.

We know Goku and Friends can block and dodge a bullet with ease but they couldn't even see Raditz flying around them. So, Piccolo's attack must have been faster than when Raditz ran towards them, which also would give Piccolo confidence that it would be fast enough to kill Goku.

Raditz doesn't need to be particularly faster than light since he's faster than Piccolo can aim and shoot at that point much like how Batman and Captain America dodged bullets since they are moving faster than the guy that can aim and fire there guys successfully enough to hit them. That doesn't mean they are faster than sound though. You yourself said Piccolo and Goku couldn't even follow Raditz's movements when he jetted right behind them. In order for Raditz to dodge Piccolo's attack all Raditz needs to do is predict when Piccolo is going to fire and dodge just before he fires, but Piccolo even tagging Raditz even slightly always came off as plot induced stupidity. Just earlier Raditz moved fast enough to strike both Goku and Piccolo from behind before they even knew what happened and he was holding back there, why he can't simply rush behind and punch Piccolo's head off from behind before he could react never made sense considering they were about similar distance from each other when they fight first broke out when he fired his signature attack at Raditz.

Do you even have to move the speed of light to not be seen? I know that I can spot a paintball flying through the air but I can't spot a real bullet even if close by because its travelling much faster. But a regular bullet is still no where near the speed of light. You would probably just need to be faster than what someone can keep up with. Kind of like what you see isn't really the present but ~80ms in the past because thats how long it takes for the average human mind to process what it sees (thats a average it differs per person). Or just be moving in and out of their field of vision really fast, again think about spotting a bullet near by compared to spotting a mach 3 jet miles out. Like how in discussions of how high do you need your frames per second to be in games to appear smooth this gets posted http://www.100fps.com/how_many_frames_c ... ns_see.htm which says that fighters pilots can identify planes flashed on a picture at 1/220th a second. So if you could cross their field of vision at say 1/1000th a second they might not even detect it and even if they did notice it you would be long gone because it would take their mind ~80ms (~2/25th a second) to comprehend it.

To be fair the 1/220th of a second is in a dark room where their focusing in the direction of where the light comes on and that image from it lingers on the eye so that's not a good example. If anything around 1/100th of a second or centisecond is around where things move too fast for normal humans to perceive. size, acceleration and field of vision are what matters. You see a jet flying through the air at mach 5 is because its a good distance away and it not moving in short bursts either. Now if the jet moved from zero to mach 5 instantly close by you wouldn't be able to see it. Bullets even ones the size os a baseball if they moved at that speed instantly just the same you still wouldn't be able to see it because its instantly accelerating to fast for yours eyes to track. This is what DBZ characters do in general, instant acceleration. if a human being were capable of instantly accelerating from 0-40.2336 km/h they would essentially be invisible to our eyes. Funny enough Goku, Kuririn, and Roshi are already at that level of speed to accomplish that before the training even commences.

Its not about moving faster than light or anything, its about moving faster than the human eye can perceive or follow.

Man, that was a lot to reply back too.

[VegettoEX]

Part of the "DEATH BATTLE!" rules is that some/all of the characters' inhibitions are removed, and that they WILL fight. Otherwise, you'll run into situations like Goku and Superman where... well... they'd never fight. So again, it's one of those things you just have to suspend some disbelief on in order to have the thing even HAPPEN.

Get past that initial attack, and you're golden.

(And I'd say plenty of people like the actual character of Goku. Like, ya' know, the entire rest of the civilized world!)

[Puto]

Generally only inhibitions against killing, since the battle needs to end in a death.

[Bussani]

But then you also have people like Kuririn possibly capable of doing the exact same thing only to suffer from cold environments exactly like a normal human would be so that isn't saying much, you also have Goku panting and heaving looking rather exhausted trying to breath after running on Kami's look out for a period of time. That place seems somewhere between the near the tropopause so Goku had trouble breathing after exerting effort in a place between with one tenth the air compared to down below on the surface. From the tropopause to the stratopause the air will decrease from one tenth to one thousandth. I have my doubt Goku will able to fight very long if at all way up there.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, man.

That's a lot different than experiencing the real thing considering a tight suit isn't going to protect you from passing out in the troposphere

Well, it's not going to let you breathe where there isn't enough (or any) air, obviously. I'm just saying that these tight suits can and do prevent the problem of gas bubbles in the blood. If you have a way to breath and a suit like this, you'll be fine in a vacuum. These space activity suits are a viable alternative to the pressurized space suits we use today.

let alone freezing to death in the lower region of the stratosphere.

I already said you were right about that being a bigger problem than the temperature of space*. Why do you always correct me when I agree with you?

Still, we don't know exactly what temperatures it would take to kill Kuririn or anyone else. That makes me wonder, completely unrelated (though surprisingly on-topic!) how Goku will fare against Superman's ice breath.

*Yes, I know, a vacuum doesn't have a temperature. Y'all know what I mean!

[Master Turbo]

Part of the "DEATH BATTLE!" rules is that some/all of the characters' inhibitions are removed, and that they WILL fight. Otherwise, you'll run into situations like Goku and Superman where... well... they'd never fight. So again, it's one of those things you just have to suspend some disbelief on in order to have the thing even HAPPEN.

Get past that initial attack, and you're golden.

(And I'd say plenty of people like the actual character of Goku. Like, ya' know, the entire rest of the civilized world!)

Oh I get the reason, entertainment and all that its still just distracting to me to see Goku act so out of character and let me rephrase the no likes Goku's actual character thing I said earlier. What I should have said more specifically is that no one likes Goku's character in these fan made things in which he's almost always acting out of character, doing and saying things he would never do or say, basically their version of Goku which is different from the real thing. I have yet to see an accurately portrayed Goku in fan made projects like these, he always comes off as somewhat of an instigator jack ass for no apparent reason. Would have made more sense if one of them was mind controlled at least.

Well, it's not going to let you breathe where there isn't enough (or any) air, obviously. I'm just saying that these tight suits can and do prevent the problem of gas bubbles in the blood. If you have a way to breath and a suit like this, you'll be fine in a vacuum. These space activity suits are a viable alternative to the pressurized space suits we use today.

Oh, I agree, I like to think Vegeta's battle wear is made of similar quality.

I already said you were right about that being a bigger problem than the temperature of space*. Why do you always correct me when I agree with you?

I'm not correcting you, I'm just mentioning its one of those factors they don't use for most experiments or at least not altogether. Sorry, but sometimes I don't quite explain too well what I mean. For most experiments like the oxygen experiment its usually one thing they are trying to test like reduced oxygen levels, freezing levels, pressurized levels, gravity levels adjustments, and such.

Still, we don't know exactly what temperatures it would take to kill Kuririn or anyone else. That makes me wonder, completely unrelated (though surprisingly on-topic!) how Goku will fare against Superman's ice breath.

I wouldn't be able to tell you exactly other than that Kuririn is affected by cold weather in the same vein as a normal human is to the point he's asking Tenshinhan for money to buy a coat to warm up so use whatever temperature would kill a normal human that would also potentially kill Kuririn. As for how Goku would fare would fare against it? We know he can die from cold weather if left in it long enough like the Jingle Village example. Superman's Arctic Breath has been compared to liquid nitrogen to near absolute zero (Insane I know) levels. In the anime and movies extreme temperatures are pretty effective against Goku and Superman's version of them are about as extreme as you can get and Death Battle is using the anime and moves as reference points so that's a vulnerability they can have Superman exploit to gain an advantage over Goku if they need something to even the playing field to make things more interesting I suppose.

*Yes, I know, a vacuum doesn't have a temperature. Y'all know what I mean![/quote]

[destro4thewin]

I read some comments about superman and his speed and still I can't understand why people think he is so fast.It is stated tha "he is faster than the speed of light" "that flash reaches the speed of light" "superman is slower than flash"at least when it comes to running.SO superman can only FLY in light speed.So no running,walking or dodging.Goku's main speed appears most in his dodging speed.So why superman can even catch Goku?In Cell saga cameras or naked eye couldn't catch Goku's movements so?Also we compare some martial arts that Superman learned with Goku's god training?Is Popo's, Kami's, King Kai's training methods so lame that superman can surpass with basic martial arts?I was thinking that Kameshennins training was advanced but hell superman can surpass God training with a training program my Karate teacher has mastered...

[Master Turbo]

I read some comments about superman and his speed and still I can't understand why people think he is so fast.It is stated tha "he is faster than the speed of light" "that flash reaches the speed of light" "superman is slower than flash"at least when it comes to running.

The thing about Superman is that you have to realize this, he's a company owned character. That means every writer has a different idea on what he can or can't do. Most think Superman I x amount stronger, fast, and tough while others think something else. Its why you will see Superman barely faster than sound and in another instance operating near light speed. Be able to punch out a star in one instance and be barely able to pull the Earth out of orbit in another. Its the same reason why anime Goku fluctuates widely in what he can or can't do since its someone different than Toriyama deciding what Goku can and can't do in said scene. The thing with Death Battle is that they are using both characters operating at their best which is why you will see Superman doing the things he does in that video. The best way I can give you an idea without bringing up scans would be to look how his Super speed is depicted in Smallville TV series. Its something along those lines.

Goku's main speed appears most in his dodging speed.So why superman can even catch Goku?In Cell saga cameras or naked eye couldn't catch Goku's movements so?Also we compare some martial arts that Superman learned with Goku's god training?Is Popo's, Kami's, King Kai's training methods so lame that superman can surpass with basic martial arts?I was thinking that Kameshennins training was advanced but hell superman can surpass God training with a training program my Karate teacher has mastered...

To be fair they only appears invisible some of the time, most the other times the camera could catch what Goku was doing such as the rapid ki blasting he was doing on Cell that was caught on tape to the point Bulma and Roshi could accurately state Goku's chances against Cell. I never understood why people blew Goku's training out of portion. Outside of ESP type teaching such as ki manipulation. Roshi, Karin, Mr. Popo, and North Kaio all did strength training, they didn't teach Goku anymore than he already know other than increasing his stats. Honestly can you recall any actual specific training they did? Roshi, made them wear heavy turtle shells to build up their strength. Karin pulled a Miyagi on Goku, all the constant climbing up the tower and chasing him around strengthen his stats. Mr. popo taught Goku how to further manipulate his ki such as suppressing it to hide it from others or to use ki sensing as a form of sixth sense to know his opponents location, and outside of that the rest was strength training.

North Kaio also did the same thing and have Goku chase Bubbles around until he got strong enough to handle the gravity, in the filler he has Gregory to test Goku's reaction times, then once he completed that he taught him Kaioken which is a stats booster, and Genki Dama which is something that draws on the ki of outside force such as nature and people to collect it all into one ball on varying size. The rest of his training is all the same, stats boost. Its nothing really new or exotic as some people think it is. He's no different than other shonen title characters who do the same thing such as Seiya, Naruto, Luffy, Yusuke, and Ichigo for example. Superman and Goku have similar abilities, for ki sensing Superman uses his super sense of hearing and touch to know exactly where someone's exact location or what they might bedoing since he felts the tiny subtle vibrations in the air. They both have their own style of fighting using their super speed, strength, and projectiles. Nothing more than the basics, just exaggerated due to them being super powerful.