SSJ4 and its multiplier

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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 8:26 am

lash wrote:You realize bruits waves are the basis for the Golden Ozaru/SSJ4 transformation, right?
What we know is that:
  • When a Saiyan with a tail absorbs through his eyes over 17 million zeno's worth of Bruits Waves, he will transform into an Oozaru
  • When a Saiyan absorbs a thousand times more Bruits Waves, he will again transform into an Oozaru, even without a tail
  • If an Oozaru has lost power, the Bruits Waves recover his power.
lash wrote:With it ironically turning out that Vegeta's SSJ4 is stronger than a usual SSJ4(remember Vegeta's base state was a great deal weaker than Goku's too).
Was Vegeta that much weaker that Goku?
lash wrote:And if being given amplified waves are only for the sole purpose of enabling Golden Ozaru without a tail, why would bulma distinguish and create another machine...'ultra amplified' compared to her previous one of 'amplified' that she used on Baby?
The first amplifier required a full moon (Earth, in that case), to absorb the Bruits Waves and increase them by a thousand times. The second amplifier could generate waves on it's own.
lash wrote:Then, when you think about bulma's hyperbole statement of making Vegeta a SSJ5...I think its pretty implied her ultra amplified bruits wave machine gave more power than normal waves.
Dub-only line.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 1:28 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote: [*]If an Oozaru has lost power, the Bruits Waves recover his power.[/list]
Maybe it actually only brought out more dormant power, like how a beat'n up and weakened Gokuu transformed against Freeza as a SSJ.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:31 pm

Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote: [*]If an Oozaru has lost power, the Bruits Waves recover his power.[/list]
Maybe it actually only brought out more dormant power, like how a beat'n up and weakened Gokuu transformed against Freeza as a SSJ.
It's something like this. Oozaru Baby was beaten up and left unconscious, then Bulma bathed him with Bruits Waves, and she told him that she recovered his power by doing this.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 3:42 pm

Yea, but my point was, that Bebi's original change possibly had a smaller multiplier than 500x; much smaller; and he lost a lot of his power battling SSJ4 Gokuu but got it back after getting more Blutz waves; and I'm also suggesting he didn't get his 'original' power back, but had dormant power released to replace it, still making him possibly far weaker than a Golden Oozaru should be.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:34 pm

Well, it was hinted (kinda) in the Perfect Files that Super Baby 2 was a Baby-mutated Super Saiyan 3, so I don't think that Oozaru Baby is Super Baby 2 x500 (or whatever the multiplier of the Golden Oozaru is).
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:37 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, it was hinted (kinda) in the Perfect Files that Super Baby 2 was a Baby-mutated Super Saiyan 3, so I don't think that Oozaru Baby is Super Baby 2 x500 (or whatever the multiplier of the Golden Oozaru is).
Why's that, exactly? Besides, how do we know SSJ2 and 3 already don't utilize the dormant Oozaru power?
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:44 pm

Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, it was hinted (kinda) in the Perfect Files that Super Baby 2 was a Baby-mutated Super Saiyan 3, so I don't think that Oozaru Baby is Super Baby 2 x500 (or whatever the multiplier of the Golden Oozaru is).
Why's that, exactly? Besides, how do we know SSJ2 and 3 already don't utilize the dormant Oozaru power?
Because if Super Baby 2 is a mutated Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta, then Golden Oozaru Vegeta wouldn't be SS3 Vegeta x500, but base Vegeta x500.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 4:51 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Well, it was hinted (kinda) in the Perfect Files that Super Baby 2 was a Baby-mutated Super Saiyan 3, so I don't think that Oozaru Baby is Super Baby 2 x500 (or whatever the multiplier of the Golden Oozaru is).
Why's that, exactly? Besides, how do we know SSJ2 and 3 already don't utilize the dormant Oozaru power?
Because if Super Baby 2 is a mutated Super Saiyan 3 Vegeta, then Golden Oozaru Vegeta wouldn't be SS3 Vegeta x500, but base Vegeta x500.
Would you mind showing me the source and explaining why you think it implies SSJ3? I've always been of the belief, that, Bebi-Bejiita was already SSJ2 before he mutated because his hair is spiky like one; and when Bebi first possessed Bejiita when he was SSJ2, his hair and face changed; but when Bebi-Bejiita first introduced himself to Trunks, he looked normal in base; so I think SSJ2 Bebi-Bejiita looks like how he did when he fought Gokuu before mutating from collected energy.

Also, I think you missed my suggestion that SSJ2 and 3 may just utilize dormant Oozaru power within a Saiya-Jin. Even if a Golden Oozaru is a SSJ3 Oozaru at any case, I don't think it would necessarily matter since an original Oozaru already utilizes the power multipliers of SSJ2 and 3, *Under this theory.* so it could just be 500x base in the end anyway.

Yes, I know, desperate fan-fictional theories.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 5:11 pm

Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:Would you mind showing me the source and explaining why you think it implies SSJ3?
Sure:
Dragon Ball GT Perfect Files Vol. 1 wrote:4: Super Baby
Super Baby is the final transformed state of Vegeta-Baby!! It has 2 types: Strongest Form 1, where Vegeta’s characteristics still remain, and Strongest Form 2, which resembles Super Saiyan 3. His final technique is the Revenge Death Ball, a mass of evil ki which might be called an evil Genki-Dama!!
If you ask me, the fact that they are comparing the two form has to mean something (and it may even hint that Vegeta had SS3 in GT).

Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:Also, I think you missed my suggestion that SSJ2 and 3 may just utilize dormant Oozaru power within a Saiya-Jin. Even if a Golden Oozaru is a SSJ3 Oozaru at any case, I don't think it would necessarily matter since an original Oozaru already utilizes the power multipliers of SSJ2 and 3, so it could just be 500x base in the end anyway.
Yeah, I missed it. :P
But I guess it's possible that Golden Oozaru could be SS2 x10, or SS3 x10. It could be any of the 3 Super Saiyan forms, combined with Oozaru.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:29 pm

Hmm... That's interesting; but to be honest, I don't think they intended for Bejiita to know Super Saiya-Jin Three; and I just don't see Bebi-Bejiita's mutations being regular, Saiya-Jin forms. His hair slightly resembles SSJ3, but so what? It's interesting and possible, but I honestly don't think it's necessarily saying it /is/ SSJ3. I mean, I could say that SSJ2 Cell Games Gohan resembles SSJ3 Gokuu.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:35 pm

Maybe Vegeta didn't use Super Saiyan 3 against possessed Gohan & Goten because he didn't want to hurt them, and as for against Super #17 & Super Yi Xing Long, he had lost too much power.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Legendary Saiya-Jin » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:38 pm

It is interesting, I'll admit. I don't think they intended it, but I could see where you're going with that; maybe he also didn't like the form because of its flaws.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Tue Feb 05, 2013 6:40 pm

Legendary Saiya-Jin wrote:maybe he also didn't like the form because of its flaws.
And that one as well.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by Bussani » Tue Feb 05, 2013 7:00 pm

I saw Baby's most powerful form as a stand in for Super Saiyan 3, but I never thought that meant Vegeta himself had Super Saiyan 3, if that makes any sense.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by lash » Tue Feb 05, 2013 10:34 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Was Vegeta that much weaker that Goku?
Yes.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:The first amplifier required a full moon (Earth, in that case), to absorb the Bruits Waves and increase them by a thousand times. The second amplifier could generate waves on it's own.
Along with the second amplifier being called an Ultra-Amplified Bruit wave emitter, it also gave out 'ultra-Bruits waves'.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Dub-only line.
Naw, I'm not the kinda guy who uses dub lines. I know what I'm saying.
Been awhile since I last looked at GT, and forgot exactly who mentioned SSJ5, and in the exact context... but either way the overall context and my main point about the 'ultra Bruits waves' being better than normal, still holds:

Bulma: "Once we use this Bruits wave emitter, surpassing even Super Saiyan 4 will no longer be a dream."
Vegeta: "Surpass Super Saiyan 4!? Bulma, when will you have it completed?"
Bulma: "Before the earth is destroyed."
Vegeta: "Nice work! Kakarrot, bring on your Super Saiyan 4, or 5, or whatever you want! I'm still not finished!
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:18 am

lash wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Was Vegeta that much weaker that Goku?
Yes.
I'm not so sure about this. The only way to compare Goku & Vegeta in GT is through their battles against Super #17, and they both got beaten up in a similar way, except that Vegeta got beaten even worse because he even tried to fight Super #17 in base. So yeah, I see Vegeta weaker than Goku, but not much weaker. He was strong enough to use Fusion with Goku.

lash wrote:Along with the second amplifier being called an Ultra-Amplified Bruit wave emitter, it also gave out 'ultra-Bruits waves'.
I guess Bulma called them "ultra" because it was capable of firing on its own one thousand times more Bruits Waver than a full moon.
lash wrote:
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Dub-only line.
Naw, I'm not the kinda guy who uses dub lines. I know what I'm saying.
Been awhile since I last looked at GT, and forgot exactly who mentioned SSJ5, and in the exact context... but either way the overall context and my main point about the 'ultra Bruits waves' being better than normal, still holds:

Bulma: "Once we use this Bruits wave emitter, surpassing even Super Saiyan 4 will no longer be a dream."
Vegeta: "Surpass Super Saiyan 4!? Bulma, when will you have it completed?"
Bulma: "Before the earth is destroyed."
Vegeta: "Nice work! Kakarrot, bring on your Super Saiyan 4, or 5, or whatever you want! I'm still not finished!
You said before that Bulma said that Vegeta could become even a Super Saiyan 5, which is a dub line. So, I guess you accidentally used it (happened to me before too).
Anyway, Vegeta's mentioning of Super Saiyan 5 in the original doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing right now.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by lash » Wed Feb 06, 2013 10:20 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I'm not so sure about this. The only way to compare Goku & Vegeta in GT is through their battles against Super #17, and they both got beaten up in a similar way, except that Vegeta got beaten even worse because he even tried to fight Super #17 in base. So yeah, I see Vegeta weaker than Goku, but not much weaker. He was strong enough to use Fusion with Goku.

Vegeta had to resort to SSJ while having a troublesome battle with Base Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby. Base Goku solo'd SSJ Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby with no barely any effort.

Now even if you were to ignore that, remember what I said about Goku's SSJ4 having his limits surpassed? He wasn't just his standard SSJ4 level. SSJ4 Vegeta matched that limits surpassed SSJ4 Goku in power.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:I guess Bulma called them "ultra" because it was capable of firing on its own one thousand times more Bruits Waver than a full moon.
The method of firing off the waves obviously shouldn't have any naming influence on the actual waves themselves.

Going by what you're proposing, Bulma would have called the Bruits waves from the 1st amplifier emitter, ultra. But she usually just referred to them as bruits waves, despite the fact that they were 1,000x stronger than normal Bruits waves. I think the implication is pretty obvious and clear. The Ultra Bruits waves were more powerful than the Bruits waves.
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:
lash wrote: Naw, I'm not the kinda guy who uses dub lines. I know what I'm saying.
Been awhile since I last looked at GT, and forgot exactly who mentioned SSJ5, and in the exact context... but either way the overall context and my main point about the 'ultra Bruits waves' being better than normal, still holds:

Bulma: "Once we use this Bruits wave emitter, surpassing even Super Saiyan 4 will no longer be a dream."
Vegeta: "Surpass Super Saiyan 4!? Bulma, when will you have it completed?"
Bulma: "Before the earth is destroyed."
Vegeta: "Nice work! Kakarrot, bring on your Super Saiyan 4, or 5, or whatever you want! I'm still not finished!
You said before that Bulma said that Vegeta could become even a Super Saiyan 5, which is a dub line. So, I guess you accidentally used it (happened to me before too).
Anyway, Vegeta's mentioning of Super Saiyan 5 in the original doesn't have anything to do with what we are discussing right now.
Seems you must not have properly read anything that I posted here. It pretty much proves what I've been saying all along(about the ultra bruits waves granting Vegeta higher power than normal), and therefore of course... has everything to do with what we are discussing now. Why else would Bulma think surpassing SSJ4 isn't a dream, if you think she's 'just' using the same standard procedure/Bruits waves to make Vegeta a regular SSJ4? Why else would Vegeta not give a crap if Goku brings out a SSJ4 or heck even a SSJ5 if he is 'only' about to be a regular SSJ4? The answer seems pretty simple and clear if you ask me.
Because the Ultra Bruits wave emitter, which emits 'ultra Bruits waves', will make Vegeta far more powerful than if he were to use regular(What Goku used) or even 'amplified'(what Vegeta-Baby used) Bruits waves.
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Feb 07, 2013 9:25 am

lash wrote:Vegeta had to resort to SSJ while having a troublesome battle with Base Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby. Base Goku solo'd SSJ Goten-Baby and SSJ Gohan-Baby with no barely any effort.
It's been at least 4 months since then during the Evil Dragons arc, and Bulma said that Vegeta was training harder than he ever did, so he probably got closer to Goku by doing that.

lash wrote:Now even if you were to ignore that, remember what I said about Goku's SSJ4 having his limits surpassed? He wasn't just his standard SSJ4 level. SSJ4 Vegeta matched that limits surpassed SSJ4 Goku in power.
Goku had used his two strongest attacks (x10 Kamehameha & Ryu-ken), and had gotten damage from Super Yi Xing Long, to the point that Goku's last resort was self destruction. He even run out of energy before Vegeta later. So, his power at the time they used Fusion should have dropped.
lash wrote:Going by what you're proposing, Bulma would have called the Bruits waves from the 1st amplifier emitter, ultra. But she usually just referred to them as bruits waves, despite the fact that they were 1,000x stronger than normal Bruits waves. I think the implication is pretty obvious and clear. The Ultra Bruits waves were more powerful than the Bruits waves.
She just gave the name later, like Goku gave the name Super Saiyan 2 long after it's introduction.
lash wrote:Seems you must not have properly read anything that I posted here. It pretty much proves what I've been saying all along(about the ultra bruits waves granting Vegeta higher power than normal), and therefore of course... has everything to do with what we are discussing now. Why else would Bulma think surpassing SSJ4 isn't a dream, if you think she's 'just' using the same standard procedure/Bruits waves to make Vegeta a regular SSJ4? Why else would Vegeta not give a crap if Goku brings out a SSJ4 or heck even a SSJ5 if he is 'only' about to be a regular SSJ4? The answer seems pretty simple and clear if you ask me.
Because the Ultra Bruits wave emitter, which emits 'ultra Bruits waves', will make Vegeta far more powerful than if he were to use regular(What Goku used) or even 'amplified'(what Vegeta-Baby used) Bruits waves.
Vegeta's comment "bring out SS4 or SS5, I'm not finished yet" just mean "get as strong as you want, I will surpass you".
As for Bulma's comment about surpassing Super Saiyan 4... I didn't noticed it. But still, she could also mean that with even more Bruits Waves, then maybe another transformation would be triggered.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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lash
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by lash » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:02 pm

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:It's been at least 4 months since then during the Evil Dragons arc, and Bulma said that Vegeta was training harder than he ever did, so he probably got closer to Goku by doing that.
The only gap in time was after the Baby arc. Considering SSJ Goku can handle initial -unserious Super 17 in his SSJ state just fine...someone the combined efforts of Super Oob, SSJ Goten, Trunks, and Vegeta couldn't even budge, irregardless of however much Vegeta trained, I'd say the gap stayed pretty large between him and Goku.

DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Goku had used his two strongest attacks (x10 Kamehameha & Ryu-ken), and had gotten damage from Super Yi Xing Long, to the point that Goku's last resort was self destruction. He even run out of energy before Vegeta later. So, his power at the time they used Fusion should have dropped.

You haven't really been paying attention to what I've been saying(since literally post 1):
lash wrote:Initial Goku's SSJ4 ended up weaker(seemingly by just a bit) than Vegeta-Baby's Golden Ozaru due to normal brutes waves.
Golden Ozaru Vegeta-Baby was given 'amplified brutes waves'. Since he performed fusion without altering his battle power...it's safe to say Vegeta's SSJ4 was equal to Surpassed Limits SSJ4 Goku(who, although was roughed up due to fighting Omega Shenron/Super Yi Xing Long, still stated he had more than enough energy to beat normal Syn Shenron/Yi Xing Long alone after he had defused from Gogeta. Syn Shenron/Yi Xing Long was someone normal SSJ4 Goku couldn't even touch).
DBZGTKOSDH wrote:Vegeta's comment "bring out SS4 or SS5, I'm not finished yet" just mean "get as strong as you want, I will surpass you".
As for Bulma's comment about surpassing Super Saiyan 4... I didn't noticed it. But still, she could also mean that with even more Bruits Waves, then maybe another transformation would be triggered.
It doesn't seem like you're actually listening to what you're saying. You're pretty much proving what I'm saying. If Bulma thinks the (new) Bruits waves she is going to use may allow another transformation, than it obviously means the new Bruits waves she is generating are better than any other emitter she has used before. If Vegeta isn't worried about Goku being a SSj4 or SSJ5 or whatever, it means he is confident the new emitter will help him surpass the normal power of SSJ4.

I mean it's literally spelled out in the statements. Not really sure why this discussion is still going: Bulma: "Once we use this Bruits wave emitter, surpassing even Super Saiyan 4 will no longer be a dream."

Combine that with the fact that SSJ4 Vegeta actually did = Roughed up Surpassed Limits SSJ4 Goku > Syn/Yi Xing Long > SSJ4 Goku...and the implication is crystal.
The ultra Bruits wave give a bigger powerup than the other types of Bruits waves.
-Otherwise known as The God of DBG.
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DBZGTKOSDH
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Re: SSJ4 and its multiplier

Post by DBZGTKOSDH » Thu Feb 07, 2013 3:20 pm

:shifty: OK, I give up. You won like a boss.
James Teal (Animerica 1996) wrote:When you think about it, there are a number of similarities between the Chinese-inspired Son Goku and that most American of superhero icons, Superman. Both are aliens sent to Earth shortly after birth to escape the destruction of their homeworlds; both possess super-strength, flight, super-speed, heightened senses and the ability to cast energy blasts. But the crucial difference between them lies not only in how they view the world, but in how the world views them.

Superman is, and always has been, a symbol for truth, justice, and upstanding moral fortitude–a role model and leader as much as a fighter. The more down-to-earth Goku has no illusions about being responsible for maintaining social order, or for setting some kind of moral example for the entire world. Goku is simply a martial artist who’s devoted his life toward perfecting his fighting skills and other abilities. Though never shy about risking his life to save either one person or the entire world, he just doesn’t believe that the balance of the world rests in any way on his shoulders, and he has no need to shape any part of it in his image. Goku is an idealist, and believes that there is some good in everyone, but he is unconcerned with the big picture of the world…unless it has to do with some kind of fight. Politics, society, law and order don’t have much bearing on his life, but he’s a man who knows right from wrong.
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