How come they didn't bring Gohan to fight Kid Buu?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

And again, you are using one statement > all which doesn't work in the context of the story. You're creating plot holes and ignoring massive amounts of implied evidence to support your failed position. It just doesn't fit within the context of the story, and even Toei thought so too, which is why the Anime carries the path that it does.

What are the "massive amounts of implied evidence"? I didn't use one statement, I used all the statements that prove this. There are not statements that prove otherwise. And I don't understand how I'm creating plot-holes. Toriyama weakened Boo at Goku's level, so that Goku can save the day. Originally, his plan was to have Gohan save the day, leaving Goku dead.

And as for the anime, the anime's statements are the plot-holes. The manga says otherwise, like it or not.

[Amuro Ray]

ad hominem -
Ad hominem circumstantial points out that someone is in circumstances such that they are disposed to take a particular position. Ad hominem circumstantial constitutes an attack on the bias of a source. This is fallacious because a disposition to make a certain argument does not make the argument false; this overlaps with the genetic fallacy (an argument that a claim is incorrect due to its source).[8]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem


Try to stay on subject.

[Fox666]

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[Amuro Ray]

You can link it to me?
My post? Or Herms' translations? Linked both.

And again, you are using one statement > all which doesn't work in the context of the story.
You're creating plot holes and ignoring massive amounts of implied evidence to support your failed position. It just doesn't fit within the context of the story, and even Toei thought so too, which is why the Anime carries the path that it does.

What are the "massive amounts of implied evidence"? I didn't use one statement, I used all the statements that prove this.
There are plenty, and I posted them. Try to explain to me how the story doesn't make logical sense in the way that I posted it.
There are not statements that prove otherwise. And I don't understand how I'm creating plot-holes. Toriyama weakened Boo at Goku's level, so that Goku can save the day.
Again, where do we see that Buu was made weaker? I explained to you before the reason behind Goku's reluctance in fighting Buu, you have yet to show me a statement showing BUU getting weaker.
Originally, his plan was to have Gohan save the day, leaving Goku dead.

And as for the anime, the anime's statements are the plot-holes. The manga says otherwise, like it or not.

He changed his mind when he didn't think Gohan was fit to save the day. The story reflects Goku not only being the hero and saving the day, but it as fulfills Goku's mission of having the Earth stand up for itself, and it aslo strongly implies that he's the strongest as well.

[Amuro Ray]

Sorry, but I personally find it really stupid that Goku and Vegeta have a 6th sense to accurately measure how powerful an enemy is (ki sense), use it to measure that Buff Buu is stronger then suddenly start measuring enemy threat by size instead of ki when Buff Buu shrinks down to Kid Buu for no apparent reason. It makes no sense.

What's more, Evil Boo knew that he would return to be Pure Boo if the fat one was removed from him. Would he reluct if that would make him stronger?

Because BUU at his current level of consciousness would cease to exist

[Fox666]

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[Amuro Ray]

I CAN EMPHASIZE MY POSTS MORE THAN YOU!!!!!!!!!!

I did that so my answers are easy to read while I quote yours. I'm to lazy to separate your posts into individual quotes.

[Fox666]

deleted

[Amuro Ray]

Using red text make your posts less legible.

That's fine, suggest another color and I'll use it, black didn't show up as well when I originally previewed it. Then you can address the actual substance of my post.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

What the hell are you talking about?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p629369

I used 7 statements. 7, not one.

Goku and Vegeta make the assumption at after everyone has been saved, they can beat Buu. At this point, they didn't know about fat buu's separate presence in the body - The only result of removing everyone would have been Superbuu.

That was because Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks would be more than enough to beat Evil Boo.

Here we see Goku threatening BUU.

Super Saiyan Goku threatens to open a hole on Boo's body, not that he will kill him.

Here Buu is explaining that Goku's size makes him essentially impotent.

That's true, but Goku also said that if they went out, they would still be unable to defeat him, except if they were to use Fusion or Potara.

Here we see that Buu is actually becoming stronger as he transforms. Also note Vegeta is referencing Buu's size, not his power

It's true that Boo's power increased, but only when he transformed into the S. Kaioshin Boo. When he returned to his original form, Vegeta talked about the size, and Goku was confident that they could beat him now that he is like this from the beginning, up until the end of their fight, while he was scared when Evil Boo turned into S. Kaioshin Boo, and also, stronger.

States that he wants to fight Buu under his own power, and not with Fusion.

Exactly! Goku is confident that he can beat Pure Boo with his own power, while against Evil Boo, he said that Fusion was their only hope.

Finally, Vegeta provides us insight to what we already know - Goku is the strongest

Vegeta is talking about their rivalry. He is saying that Goku is the #1 between Goku & him, not that Goku is the #1 in the universe.

[Amuro Ray]

What the hell are you talking about?

http://www.kanzenshuu.com/forum/viewtop ... 20#p629369

I used 7 statements. 7, not one.

Goku and Vegeta make the assumption at after everyone has been saved, they can beat Buu. At this point, they didn't know about fat buu's separate presence in the body - The only result of removing everyone would have been Superbuu.

That was because Ultimate Gohan & SS3 Gotenks would be more than enough to beat Evil Boo.
This wasn't stated or implied.

Here we see Goku threatening BUU.

Super Saiyan Goku threatens to open a hole on Boo's body, not that he will kill him.

Here Buu is explaining that Goku's size makes him essentially impotent.

That's true, but Goku also said that if they went out, they would still be unable to defeat him, except if they were to use Fusion or Potara.

Here we see that Buu is actually becoming stronger as he transforms. Also note Vegeta is referencing Buu's size, not his power

It's true that Boo's power increased, but only when he transformed into the S. Kaioshin Boo. When he returned to his original form, Vegeta talked about the size, and Goku was confident that they could beat him now that he is like this from the beginning, up until the end of their fight, while he was scared when Evil Boo turned into S. Kaioshin Boo, and also, stronger.

What? That doesn't make any sense - at no time did it state BUU got weaker. We know he got stronger, both Goku and the Kais stated as much. I also pointed out that Goku was uncertain about his SSJ3 ability from the beginning.

States that he wants to fight Buu under his own power, and not with Fusion.

Exactly! Goku is confident that he can beat Pure Boo with his own power, while against Evil Boo, he said that Fusion was their only hope.

Finally, Vegeta provides us insight to what we already know - Goku is the strongest

Vegeta is talking about their rivalry. He is saying that Goku is the #1 between Goku & him, not that Goku is the #1 in the universe.

Possible, but you could argue that Vegeta targets Goku as a rival because Goku has always been the strongest. It would only be fitting that Vegeta would want to be better than Goku.

[dbzfan7]

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

He performs 2 transformations. South Kaioshin Boo made him stronger and then he transformed again as South Kaioshin Boo's influence left him.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

Goku still believes he can win if he charges to full power. While against Super Boo he said he had no chance no matter what. If Kid Boo was stronger then Super, Goku would know the whole thing is pointless and fusion is the only way to win against Kid Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

If Goku could beat Super Boo why would they worry about turning Super Boo back to his very first form if Goku could just beat Super Boo. Why mention that.

@DBZGTKOSDH you can have the "pleasure" of continuing as the last time I debated this topic it took forever until the last guy finally understood the truth.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

This wasn't stated or implied.

It was stated that Goku & Vegeta together didn't stood a chance against Evil Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P2.4-5
Context: after evil Boo appears inside his own body
Vegeta: “Da…damn it…! Th-this could be bad…”
Goku: “Di-didn’t I tell your to wear your Potara?! Th-this is why! If we could just go outside and merge, then this kind of guy would be an easy victory!”

We know Gohan is stronger than Evil Boo. Goku believed that he & Vegeta could only defeat him with Fusion, or they are finished. It's only logical to assume that Gohan would take care of Boo.

What? That doesn't make any sense - at no time did it state BUU got weaker. We know he got stronger, both Goku and the Kais stated as much. I also pointed out that Goku was uncertain about his SSJ3 ability from the beginning.

Chapter: 507 (DBZ 313), P13.5
Context: as evil Boo reverts to his South Kaioshin form
Goku: “H-hey…Vegeta…His ki is increasing, ain’t it…!?”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P3.4-6
Context: after Boo reverts to his pure form
Goku: “…”
Vegeta: “……Heh…Heheheh…Look! He’s shrunk down quite a bit!”
Goku: “We did it! This way, we might be able to manage something.”
Note: "He’s shrunk" is chidzimu, which typically refers to physical shrinking (like with Bulma's Micro Band) and throughout DB is never used to refer to ki diminishing. So Vegeta's probably talking about how Boo’s body has shrunk. That doesn't mean Boo's ki didn't go down too, but it's not what Vegeta's talking about here.

Goku is scared of Boo when he reverted into S. Kaioshin Boo. He thought that the second transformation would increase further Boo's power, but when he saw this wasn't the case, he believed that they could probably beat him.

[Amuro Ray]

Chapter: 508 (DBZ 314), P2.3-7, P3.3
Context: after reverting to his South Kaioshin form, Boo continues to change
Vegeta: “…Look…He intends to perform another transformation…”
[ ]
Goku: “…I wish he’d cut that out…”
Kaioshin: “Th-this can’t be…it’s impossible…He’s cha-changing back…”
*Boo changes back into his pure form*
Kaioshin: “…I…I knew it…”

He performs 2 transformations. South Kaioshin Boo made him stronger and then he transformed again as South Kaioshin Boo's influence left him.

Chapter: 510 (DBZ 316), P13.1-6
Vegeta: “Don’t hesitate for my sake, and finish him off! With that Super Saiyan 3, you should be able to completely wipe out Boo with your ki once you gather it with all your might…!”
Goku: “Ye…yeah…I’ve been thinking of doing that as well since awhile back, but…I haven’t gotten the chance.”
Vegeta: “Eh?”
Goku: “If I want to wipe him out, I gotta gather ki for about one minute.”
Vegeta: “One minute?!”
Goku: “Dammnit~~~If it was with the Potara, I could have done it in one blast. …..Cheh~~~I guess I went and showed off too much. But I thought things would go a little better than this…!”
Vegeta: “…S …So you weren’t thinking of me…”

Goku still believes he can win if he charges to full power. While against Super Boo he said he had no chance no matter what. If Kid Boo was stronger then Super, Goku would know the whole thing is pointless and fusion is the only way to win against Kid Boo.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P8.1
Context: Goku points out that if he and Vegeta aren’t merged, Vegeta will have to return to the afterlife
Vegeta: “Hmph…That’s better than being merged with you…Anyway, there shouldn’t be any need for us to merge anymore, right?”
Goku: “We can’t know that! There’s [no] guarantee that we’ll be able to successfully rescue everyone who got absorbed from here and return Boo to the very first one of all…!”
Note: when Goku finds the good Boo later, he calls him “the very first one of all”, so apparently that’s the form of Boo he means here too.

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P12.4-5
Context: after Goku and Vegeta revert Boo back to regular evil Boo
Goku: “Hehhe~~eh! With this, Boo’s power should have fallen significantly! We’re almost there! See, see: the size of his ki is completely different than before!”
Vegeta: “Alright! Let’s blast out of here and escape!”
Goku: “Wait! Even though Boo has returned to normal a whole lot, we’re still simply no match for his strength! If we go outside like this, we’ll definitely be done in…!”

Chapter: 506 (DBZ 312), P13.1
Context: still talking about how they’re no match for Boo
Goku: “…But there is one way we can win!”
Vegeta: “You want to say Fusion, right? Well who cares about that?!”
Goku: “Huh? You know about it?”
Vegeta: “I saw it from the afterlife…You’ve got to be joking! You think I’d perform those ugly poses…?! Anyway, I thought I told you that I’m not going to merge with you a second time.”

If Goku could beat Super Boo why would they worry about turning Super Boo back to his very first form if Goku could just beat Super Boo. Why mention that.

He does one - changing from "Superbuu" to "kidbuu" That comment was after Vegeta pulled the fatbuu from the pod and Goku made one about it prior. At no time did BUU stop changing nor did they comment about a reduction in power.

Notice Vegeta isn't afraid, he seemed very confident in Goku's ability to beat BUU in SuperSayin 3. At this point, he doesn't know the weakness of the form or the strain it's putting on Goku, but he felt the power.

Notice Vegeta's comment about Goku being stronger than he imagined. Implying what Goku's first transformation didn't show his max potential.


Again, Vegeta and Goku are both confident that he has enough power to overcome BUU.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

You don't understand, no one is arguing about Goku's & Pure Boo's power. We all know that Goku is stronger than Pure Boo. However, you say that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, which is false.

[Amuro Ray]

You don't understand, no one is arguing about Goku's & Pure Boo's power. We all know that Goku is stronger than Pure Boo. However, you say that Goku is stronger than Evil Boo, which is false.

HOW?! Every time I've asked for you to prove it, you refer to one statement. Yes, he wasn't confident that he could beat BUU and I explained why. But you continually post the same argument of one panel out of context, when you, I and everyone else who reads it know it doesn't make sense. It was stated by 2 different people that BUU's original form was more powerful than his current, and nothing stated says otherwise, do yo agree?

[DBZGTKOSDH]

No one said that Pure Boo was the most powerful in the manga. He was stated to be the most dangerous, because he was uncontrollable. Only the anime labeled Pure Boo as the strongest Majin Boo.

[Amuro Ray]

No one said that Pure Boo was the most powerful in the manga. He was stated to be the most dangerous, because he was uncontrollable. Only the anime labeled Pure Boo as the strongest Majin Boo.

I never stated otherwise - but what is explicitly stated is "Kiddbuu" power is greater than that of "Superbuu."

[DBZGTKOSDH]

I never stated otherwise - but what is explicitly stated is "Kiddbuu" power is greater than that of "Superbuu."

But it's not.

[Amuro Ray]

I never stated otherwise - but what is explicitly stated is "Kiddbuu" power is greater than that of "Superbuu."

But it's not.

Say's who, you?

I can see this argument is going nowhere, you are far to caught up in your own ignorance to be intellectually honest.